Women-only audaxes

[citoyen]

I say ‘hello’ or wave at pretty well every cyclist and runner I see.

I did a double take here, as I initially read this as "I say hello or wave at every pretty cyclist and runner I see." 

[TimC]

I've avoided getting embroiled in the arguments, preferring to try and point out some positive experiences (and, by implication, the contrast between those and the more common experiences of many women I know), and suggest a way which women-only Audax-style rides could be arranged in UK.

But I've read and tried to understand what the women here have been saying because my club is trying to attract more women to cycle. One of the things we explicitly offer is women-only rides, and it's been quite popular. We're a small club, and the number of people we have actively participating isn't large so we aren't going to make a big dent in the problem, but I hope we are showing that there is an alternative to those traditional male-orientated, macho-infused clubs which are still very much the norm in the small towns local to me. One of those clubs was the reason my ex-wife pretty much gave up club cycling, for precisely the reasons expressed by women here. She is an extremely accomplished cyclist, who owns most of the QOMs round here and was in the fastest 10% of her club, of any gender. She's taken up rowing instead, which appears to be much more egalitarian than cycling is.

[BrianI]

Or the X only event, helps those X taking part to feel more confident doing the event, that they may in time take part in events which welcome X,Y, and Z?

YES!!!!!

This!!!!

This is entirely the whole point of it.

Sam

Agreed! Which makes it bizarre all the fuss it's creating... 

[Redlight]

I am really sorry now that I started this thread. That is pretty rare.

Is it better to split the original announcement from the resulting discussion or lock it or delete it or what?

You seem to have removed the original post, which makes it hard for those of us coming late to this discussion to know what is being discussed 

That aside, I'd be all in favour of allowing women-only randonnees.  If you don't agree with women-only events, don't enter women only events. 

If that requires a change to AUK rules that can be made without undermining the need for our rules to align with ACP rules for validated events, I'd be happy to propose it, subject to 25 other members adding their backing.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=119266.0

25 seconders needed for a motion is fucking stupid.

[CarlF]

To be blunt, it's not about you. None of this is about you.

You personally might not be (I can't find a quote) but by telling people that if they "are not part of the solution they are part of the problem" or something along those lines, that accusation makes it at least partly about them.
If you are going to accuse people of being sexist when they haven't actually done anything sexist then it is about them because they are naturally going to take exception to that accusation.

Coming into this thread and arguing the toss with the women pointing out some of the issues with a male-dominated environment? Definitely sexist.

[Ben T]

If you read a whole thread where people are explaining how approximately half of the population suffers constant micro-aggressions (and nobody has even yet pointed out that a significant proportion of them have suffered actual sexual assault), and your focus is that you, personally, have been accused of perpetrating those micro-aggressions and are really pissed off about it, instead of setting aside any temptation to give in to fragile male ego and thinking, "Holy heck, that really blows goats for all these people, some of whom I might even ride with! I wonder how I can help stop all that crap from happening?" then you are behaving as if you are, at best, a bystander.

Do you watch Doctor Who? Have you seen Silence In The Library? There's a point where they are frantically checking shadows for the Vashta Nerada, and River asks, "All shadows?"

The Doctor replies, "Not all shadows, but any shadow."

Not all men. But any man. You either proactively demonstrate you are safe (monching down a chicken drumstick in 1.5s is the wrong test), or you will be lumped in with all the ones who aren't. Because sexist arseholes don't walk around with a tattoo on their heads saying, "DICK".

I can quite happily imagine a world in which there's an orbiting space laser watching all men, and as soon as it observes some trumpfangler yelling, "ALL RIGHT LOVE? NICE TITS!" it sends down a tightly focused beam to brand an indelible cock and balls on his forehead. But that's fantasy, not reality. In reality, any man I meet whom I have no reason to trust is a potential fuckwad, because so damn many of them are, and I shall behave accordingly.

As Atwood is often paraphrased: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them."

Minor instances of sexist behaviour are not usually likely to lead to full-blown sexual assault or worse, but they are the first step on that road, and they put women on edge, as well as pissing them off. If you can't set your own sense of entitlement aside for a moment to empathise with the problem, I suggest the best course of action is to go and talk about something where you won't feel personally slighted by generalisations.

Sam

Ok fair enough...
But. It may not have been you personally but someone claimed they “aren’t anti men”.
But if you’re taking the assumption that any man is a sexist until he proves that he isn’t, then you are anti men. That may be justified, and rational, based on your life experiences - but that’s the truth of it.
Anyone who’s demonstrably anti-men in real life, or anti- anything else that I am, whether rationally or irrationally, I think in practice I would simply tend to largely avoid them.

I empathise with you, for any negative behaviour you’ve encountered from men, maybe not empathise as that implies I’d have to have experienced it myself which I haven’t, more sympathise, but I don’t feel the need to prove that to anyone, which may explain my lack of posts supporting you, not that I don’t care. :shrug:

Remember a social media forum like this is completely different to real life, as well, as people on here are keyboard warriors going looking for an argument/debate, whereas in real life people want to get on with each other

[perpetual dan]

Somewhere up there there was a “it’s just one ride” comment. I’m becoming increasingly convinced that more than one of these events would be a good idea. Really, it isn’t taking any bike rides away from me.

Also, I do think it promotes equity, of “giving it a go” at least. A bit like with diversity in the boardroom, achieving it is helped by a broad base. Pretty often that means doing something different to before.

[Ruthie]

Or the X only event, helps those X taking part to feel more confident doing the event, that they may in time take part in events which welcome X,Y, and Z?

YES!!!!!

This!!!!



This is entirely the whole point of it.

Sam

This!   Also, that thing acknowledging men who get it?  That.

I haven’t joined in because I’m desperately tired of being gaslighted about shit that’s happened ALL MY LIFE and I’m anaemic and hypothyroidy and sad and life’s too short.

[Ben T]

"This post is mostly for the benefit of any men reading" - I've highlighted the key word here. Rather than taking offence as a knee-jerk reaction, try to think about what you might learn from hearing about the experiences of women on audax events.

Why only men then? Why can’t other women who haven’t experienced sexist bullying benefit from learning about the experience of the ones who have?

[perpetual dan]

"This post is mostly for the benefit of any men reading" - I've highlighted the key word here. Rather than taking offence as a knee-jerk reaction, try to think about what you might learn from hearing about the experiences of women on audax events.

Why only men then? Why can’t other women who haven’t experienced sexist bullying benefit from learning about the experience of the ones who have?

I’m pretty sure that women talk to other women about this stuff already. In any case, they’re in a different position to the men in this.

Also, women that are old enough to ride without a parent and haven’t experienced sexism will be a rather small niche. But I suspect you knew that really.

[Croft]

Why can’t other women who haven’t experienced sexist bullying benefit from learning about the experience of the ones who have?

You know that bit about privilege posted upthread? You may wish to (re)read it if you really think sexist bullying is something only ~some~ women experience.

[Lightning Phil]

There’s some very useful insights shared by the women on this thread.

In particular QGs comment that every time she encounters a man she doesn’t know, she’s not sure whether they are a threat or not. Whether they can be trusted or not.

I am a friendly sort and because I consider myself a sensitive unthreatening sort, when I catch up a woman on an audax,  I’ve never thought too much about whether she might consider me a threat or feel uncomfortable in my presence.  I usually ride with others for a bit then move ahead, drop back, or stop for something. So I rarely ride with others for long periods.   I like to think I pick up quickly if someone doesn’t want my company and happily drop back or go on ahead.

But I’ll be more mindful of what I’ve read here.  If I catch someone on an audax and fancy some company I usually ask the rider if they’d like company and respect any response good naturedly. 

Is there more I could do?

[Ben T]

Why can’t other women who haven’t experienced sexist bullying benefit from learning about the experience of the ones who have?

You know that bit about privilege posted upthread? You may wish to (re)read it if you really think sexist bullying is something only ~some~ women experience.

Alright, for “haven’t experienced” read “haven’t experienced it as much” or  “are slightly less angry about it”

[Ruthie]

There are women who never spend any time with men who aren’t family members. They are utterly scandalised, thrilled, appalled at me having male friends and going riding bikes when men will be there. I’m regarded as insane for walking for transport in broad daylight because they’d never dare because it’s not safe.  And am I not scared, riding a bike on the road. And I go to places on my own?! Like, the pictures and to church?! They would never do that! Too scary!

It’s really fucking complicated being a woman.

But I still love spending time with women because I love women and they bloody rock.  Except for those other women, the ones I don’t like. And I love my male friends too, and my brother, and my son. And my daughter.

Look, things don’t look the same for everyone. And an all-women event makes some women comfortable enough to turn up.

What’s wrong with that?

[Ben T]

There are women who never spend any time with men who aren’t family members. They are utterly scandalised, thrilled, appalled at me having male friends and going riding bikes when men will be there. I’m regarded as insane for walking for transport in broad daylight because they’d never dare because it’s not safe.  And am I not scared, riding a bike on the road. And I go to places on my own?! Like, the pictures and to church?! They would never do that! Too scary!

It’s really fucking complicated being a woman.

But I still love spending time with women because I love women and they bloody rock.  Except for those other women, the ones I don’t like. And I love my male friends too, and my brother, and my son. And my daughter.

Look, things don’t look the same for everyone. And an all-women event makes some women comfortable enough to turn up.

What’s wrong with that?

Wasn’t sure whether that’s a rhetorical question, but just for the record I have NO problem whatsoever with women only events, do it, go for your life

[Ruthie]

What?

Was that about you, Ben?!

[nikki]

There’s some very useful insights shared by the women on this thread.

Thanks for listening 

Is there more I could do?

Here are a few things I've either found useful for me or things others have found useful...


Upthread we mentioned calling out bad behaviour when you see it. This really is key. Also hard. I guess bystander training is the way into getting tips for that. I think someone linked to a resource earlier. Maybe some people can nudge workplaces to provide some - we're pushing for that at the University I'm at. Bonus: works for sexism, racism, homophobia...!

Learning how to spot what things need calling out (kind of a pre-requisite for the above).

• Diversify your social media feeds - listen to what people who are different to you are saying.
• I found the Seeing White podcast really educational for starting to see how systems of whiteness work. They did a series on Men, too. American-centric, but same principles apply.

Tamika Butler has spoken about the Actor > Ally > Accomplice spectrum. See video here: https://abc7news.com/allyship-ways-to-be-an-ally-how-define/6314460/ There are some nice distinctions here, as well as reassurance that you won't get it right every time.

Consent. This has been mentioned in the thread a few times when people spoke of offering help. It's also been omitted plenty of times when people have spoken of giving help. It might need to be explicit (think advice or repair help), it might only need eye contact and a raised eyebrow (think intervening).

• I've had a bit of chat with a cycle repair place in the USA who said that rigorously implementing a consent approach (ask before you diagnose, ask before you touch the bike, ask before you give an opinion...) led to immediately better interactions with his customers and that the feedback is the space is getting a reputation for being welcoming.
• Asking for background information before launching into the advice-giving stage is also a handy way of reducing the risks of mansplaining. "Is your bike set up in that way for a particular reason?" "Would you be interested in a few suggestions for potentially improving x?"
• This article about unsolicited advice was published recently in Canadian Bicycling Magazine. It includes this diagram:
  
  
  
  [Before anyone starts, I know that some people have been trained to observe particular flowchart conventions about what sort of shape outline to use for different processes. Just don't. Really; that's not important in this conversation.]

The Women's New Forest Off Road Club have been doing a lot of work recently to try and head off the fears of potential new riders. This post got a lot of love: https://www.instagram.com/p/COH5x0yF8ej/

[Auntie Helen]

Why can’t other women who haven’t experienced sexist bullying benefit from learning about the experience of the ones who have?

You know that bit about privilege posted upthread? You may wish to (re)read it if you really think sexist bullying is something only ~some~ women experience.

Alright, for “haven’t experienced” read “haven’t experienced it as much” or  “are slightly less angry about it”

I don’t think that’s any of us.

We all experience sexism.

I don’t work in such a traditionally male industry as, say, QG, but in my hobby of cycling I experienced sexism often when in bike shops. I bought a car last week too, accompanied by my chap - you can guess with whom the salesman did all the discussion.

We are all angry about it.

[rogerzilla]

Two longstanding members have left the forum in the last 24 hours after being involved in this thread   I'm not saying the two facts are directly related, but before you post, think about the kind of forum you want.

[Ben T]

What?

Was that about you, Ben?!

It DOESN’T MATTER whether it was “about me”. You asked a question, I chose to answer it.
You then chose to make me feel bad at having apparently spoken out of place by parroting out this “it’s not about you” cliché.
My reply wasn’t offensive, it wasn’t sexist, it wasn’t insulting, it wasn’t rude. It was merely stating my opinion - as I thought I was entitled to do. Clearly not. But you chose to take offence to it anyway. With an ad hominem, withering put down that isn’t intended to even be able to be debated or come back on. The only purpose of your post is not to make a point but to make yourself look good and me to look bad.

Two longstanding members have left the forum in the last 24 hours after being involved in this thread   I'm not saying the two facts are directly related, but before you post, think about the kind of forum you want.

The above ^^^ is the epitome of why this already isn’t the kind of forum I want.
People don’t want to have a debate, they just want to posture, preen their egos, make themselves look good and denigrate, rather than engage with, anybody they perceive as “on the wrong side”.
I’m sure they’re not like that in real life - it’s just what social media turns people into keyboard warriors.
It’s become too much like twitter.
For what it’s worth, the moderation seems either non existent or unfair as well - on the odd occasion I’ve used the report post button (for a post using directed insults with swearing, not in this thread) it’s as far as I can tell been ignored, and no ones replied
So that’s why I’m also deleting my account. If I want to read without posting on the Audax forum I can still do so anonymously, and if I want to ask/answer cycling related matters I’ll create a new, anonymous, user name but won’t post anything opinionated.

[BrianI]

Two longstanding members have left the forum in the last 24 hours after being involved in this thread   I'm not saying the two facts are directly related, but before you post, think about the kind of forum you want.

That is sad. Hopefully they will return to the forum.

Even if we disagree with another's views, we should be excellent to each other.

[citoyen]

It DOESN’T MATTER whether it was “about me”. You asked a question, I chose to answer it.
You then chose to make me feel bad at having apparently spoken out of place by parroting out this “it’s not about you” cliché.

You've been determined to make this about you from the moment you waded into this discussion.

As for "posturing", that is the perfect word to describe the way you have chosen to take offence rather than make an effort to understand and engage with what is actually being said. It's all deeply disappointing.

[ravenbait]

Two longstanding members have left the forum in the last 24 hours after being involved in this thread   I'm not saying the two facts are directly related, but before you post, think about the kind of forum you want.

I am so sorry to hear that. I hope they'll come back eventually.

Sam

[ravenbait]

You seem to have removed the original post, which makes it hard for those of us coming late to this discussion to know what is being discussed 

It was just a post announcing a women-only audax (not in the UK, nor run by AUK).

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=119266.0

Which, of course, immediately attracted the "why do we need one of those, it's divisive" response. Cue... *waves hand vaguely with a sense of frustrated despondency" ...all this.

Sam