Women-only audaxes

[ravenbait]

The above ^^^ is the epitome of why this already isn’t the kind of forum I want.
People don’t want to have a debate, they just want to posture, preen their egos, make themselves look good and denigrate, rather than engage with, anybody they perceive as “on the wrong side”.
I’m sure they’re not like that in real life - it’s just what social media turns people into keyboard warriors.

I don't want you to leave, Ben. I don't want anyone to leave. The thing is, though, if you go back and read all your posts on this thread, have you tried to engage with the subject matter? I'd be super interested in hearing your thoughts on how we could make audax (or any cycling) more welcoming for women, or actions you take to make yourself less potentially threatening to the women you meet (on bikes or otherwise). I don't think we've seen anything like that from you.

There are some men here modelling excellent ways to be considerate and thoughtful, and I appreciate their efforts.

Sam

[rogerzilla]

Two longstanding members have left the forum in the last 24 hours after being involved in this thread   I'm not saying the two facts are directly related, but before you post, think about the kind of forum you want.

Five now.  Is this thread doing any good?  If not, we'll lock it and bury it.

[nikki]

I think this thread has done an excellent job in illustrating what is the exact motivation for women-only cycling activities and what women feel in these contexts (the original questions). It's also made very apparent the behaviours that contribute to this. As a bonus, we now know where various forum members stand on such matters and can adjust our interactions with them accordingly.

To lock the thread just as some people are starting to seriously consider what steps they can take towards initiating change would feel like a bit of a kick in the teeth to me, decreasing likelihood of further discussion on the subject and indicating a disregard for the need for change.

We've managed to have some useful discussion despite persistent, textbook trolling (in the open and in our PMs). Whilst we don't know why some people have left, if you're inclined to relate it to the tone and content of this thread then please spare a minute to consider what it's like to have to deal with this sort of thing on a daily basis without the option of deleting an account and going incognito.

[BrianI]

I don't think locking burying the thread will be helpful.  Perhaps an admin / moderator reminder for people to be awesome to each other wouldn't go amiss, but overall I think this thread has raised some important points.

As I said, I have no issues with a Women Only Audax event, if it encourages Women to take part in Audaxes, then in time they may feel comfortable enough to take part in a mixed event. 

[mrcharly-YHT]

I find it sad that people have left. (not read all of thread)

Personally I find the forum very informative. Multiple times I have asserted something and had it explained to me what I got wrong. Useful, I learnt something.

Of the posts from Ravenbait, QG, Nikki and others, there is only one thing I'd dispute. Their posts discussed men being sexist, particularly in a microaggressive putdown way. It isn't just men who are guilty of this (although they are audibly guilty of the vast, vast majority of these offences). Women also do it and it is a particular problem in the workplace (mostly because it is harder to detect). When women do this (and teens), it is often a double-edged putdown; they doubt a woman's ability to do something. That is another way of saying they doubt themselves.

To be a defender doesn't have to mean confronting the attacker. It can mean supporting the victim. Blank the attacker's words, engage the victim with supporting and interested communication. In a meeting, this can mean something like "I'm interested in what you just said, can you expand on it?".



Slight digression, but "Black Girls Hike" is a rather fab group, I follow them on facebook. Would something similar benefit cycling?

[nikki]

If any of the burned accounts are related to people responding to problematic behaviour with a quiet, polite word off-thread calling it out, then those people have my gratitude and respect for stepping up.

To be a defender doesn't have to mean confronting the attacker. It can mean supporting the victim. Blank the attacker's words, engage the victim with supporting and interested communication. In a meeting, this can mean something like "I'm interested in what you just said, can you expand on it?".

I agree with this.

It isn't just men who are guilty of this (although they are audibly guilty of the vast, vast majority of these offences). Women also do it and it is a particular problem in the workplace (mostly because it is harder to detect). When women do this (and teens), it is often a double-edged putdown; they doubt a woman's ability to do something. That is another way of saying they doubt themselves.

I partially agree with this. I've never really had a proper job (apart for that one time working for the MOD, but I'm not allowed to talk about that), but over the last year or so I've heard a lot more women - and in particular Black women - talking about workplace dynamics and I wonder to what extent this might be influenced by feeling the need to go along with the dominant office cultures and male behaviours that value dominance.

Be excellent to each other, folks. Please.

Slight digression, but "Black Girls Hike" is a rather fab group, I follow them on facebook. Would something similar benefit cycling?

I think they certainly have an immediate benefit for some people within (or standing tentatively on the edge of) cycling. I'm learning a lot from those sorts of accounts too, so hopefully I can convert that to some positive change too.

What do you particularly find fab about it, mrcharly?

I'm not on facebook, but I know there are initiatives such as Black Girls Do Bike, Cycle Sisters, JoyRiders, Women in Tandem, Lakes Gravel Gang, Lancaster Women's Cycling Group, Women of Colour Cycling Collective, Diversity in Cycling Alliance, Spoke Out Derby, Nuhiha, Black Muslim Women Bike. Probably folks who are interested can find them on their social media platform of choice and spider out from there.

There's some valid criticism of 'more women in cycling' campaigns that only recognise white women in cleats, so I think it's important to recognise that there are a lot of women also benefiting a lot from systems of privilege and to make efforts to listen to those that are not.

There are 3 days left on this rather excellent humble bundle of titles from Microcosm Publishing should anyone want some interesting reading: https://www.humblebundle.com/books/bikes-microcosm-books

I'm also currently reading Tiffany Lam's masters dissertation on the gender gap and other inequalities in cycling in London. Available to download for free here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5bb49008aadd34716d6ec6e5/t/5bb4ac7cc83025a8d2d11c67/1538567298713/Cycling+London+-+An+Intersectional+Feminist+Perspective.pdf


I realise these references are not audax specific, but I think this is all part of the same challenge.

[Cudzoziemiec]

This thread seems to me a little like statue toppling in the context of BLM or racism generally: an act that is in itself rather meaningless (it's just a lump of rock!) but crystalises opinion and knowledge for those otherwise not involved. Certainly as a resident of Bristol I knew a few things about Colson but learnt a lot more about his statue in particular and why some people get so angry about it (it's as much about the people who put it up as Colson himself; I didn't realise the statue was put up closer in time to today than Colston's death). So a simple bike ride can, perhaps unwittingly and unintentionally, act as a means for those not (seemingly) affected to gain some realisation of others' experiences and their part in them.

[ravenbait]

Of the posts from Ravenbait, QG, Nikki and others, there is only one thing I'd dispute. Their posts discussed men being sexist, particularly in a microaggressive putdown way. It isn't just men who are guilty of this (although they are audibly guilty of the vast, vast majority of these offences). Women also do it and it is a particular problem in the workplace (mostly because it is harder to detect). When women do this (and teens), it is often a double-edged putdown; they doubt a woman's ability to do something. That is another way of saying they doubt themselves.

I, personally, have not witnessed any women on a cycle ride doubting the ability of other women. This does not mean it doesn't happen, just that I have not seen it (absence of evidence etc). I would be incredibly disappointed if I did, and would call it out immediately.

To be a defender doesn't have to mean confronting the attacker. It can mean supporting the victim. Blank the attacker's words, engage the victim with supporting and interested communication. In a meeting, this can mean something like "I'm interested in what you just said, can you expand on it?".

100% agree, and I apologise if I've inadvertently implied that this is not the case.

Slight digression, but "Black Girls Hike" is a rather fab group, I follow them on facebook. Would something similar benefit cycling?

I have not heard of them but shall look them up, thanks!

Sam

[rafletcher]

Two longstanding members have left the forum in the last 24 hours after being involved in this thread   I'm not saying the two facts are directly related, but before you post, think about the kind of forum you want.

Five now.  Is this thread doing any good?  If not, we'll lock it and bury it.

I think (from a personal perspective at least) it's been a useful thread.  Whether the Audax board is the best place for it now I'm not so sure, it certainly has the feel of a POBI topic, but relocation may change the tone of discussion for the worse I fear.

[mrcharly-YHT]

If any of the burned accounts are related to people responding to problematic behaviour with a quiet, polite word off-thread calling it out, then those people have my gratitude and respect for stepping up.

To be a defender doesn't have to mean confronting the attacker. It can mean supporting the victim. Blank the attacker's words, engage the victim with supporting and interested communication. In a meeting, this can mean something like "I'm interested in what you just said, can you expand on it?".

I agree with this.

It isn't just men who are guilty of this (although they are audibly guilty of the vast, vast majority of these offences). Women also do it and it is a particular problem in the workplace (mostly because it is harder to detect). When women do this (and teens), it is often a double-edged putdown; they doubt a woman's ability to do something. That is another way of saying they doubt themselves.

I partially agree with this. I've never really had a proper job (apart for that one time working for the MOD, but I'm not allowed to talk about that), but over the last year or so I've heard a lot more women - and in particular Black women - talking about workplace dynamics and I wonder to what extent this might be influenced by feeling the need to go along with the dominant office cultures and male behaviours that value dominance.

Be excellent to each other, folks. Please.

Slight digression, but "Black Girls Hike" is a rather fab group, I follow them on facebook. Would something similar benefit cycling?

I think they certainly have an immediate benefit for some people within (or standing tentatively on the edge of) cycling. I'm learning a lot from those sorts of accounts too, so hopefully I can convert that to some positive change too.

What do you particularly find fab about it, mrcharly?

I'm not on facebook, but I know there are initiatives such as Black Girls Do Bike, Cycle Sisters, JoyRiders, Women in Tandem, Lakes Gravel Gang, Lancaster Women's Cycling Group, Women of Colour Cycling Collective, Diversity in Cycling Alliance, Spoke Out Derby, Nuhiha, Black Muslim Women Bike. Probably folks who are interested can find them on their social media platform of choice and spider out from there.

There's some valid criticism of 'more women in cycling' campaigns that only recognise white women in cleats, so I think it's important to recognise that there are a lot of women also benefiting a lot from systems of privilege and to make efforts to listen to those that are not.

There are 3 days left on this rather excellent humble bundle of titles from Microcosm Publishing should anyone want some interesting reading: https://www.humblebundle.com/books/bikes-microcosm-books

I'm also currently reading Tiffany Lam's masters dissertation on the gender gap and other inequalities in cycling in London. Available to download for free here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5bb49008aadd34716d6ec6e5/t/5bb4ac7cc83025a8d2d11c67/1538567298713/Cycling+London+-+An+Intersectional+Feminist+Perspective.pdf


I realise these references are not audax specific, but I think this is all part of the same challenge.

Black girls hike has a terrific energy (possibly down to the founder, who interviewed very well on the radio).
The whole ethos and organisation is very welcoming to people of any experience, any fitness level. It started as a small local thing and inside of about 2years has spread (not dissimilar to parkrun). Local groups all over.

It isn't just men who are guilty of this (although they are audibly guilty of the vast, vast majority of these offences). Women also do it and it is a particular problem in the workplace (mostly because it is harder to detect). When women do this (and teens), it is often a double-edged putdown; they doubt a woman's ability to do something. That is another way of saying they doubt themselves.

I partially agree with this. I've never really had a proper job (apart for that one time working for the MOD, but I'm not allowed to talk about that), but over the last year or so I've heard a lot more women - and in particular Black women - talking about workplace dynamics and I wonder to what extent this might be influenced by feeling the need to go along with the dominant office cultures and male behaviours that value dominance.

I suspect you have hit the nail on the head here. No evidence, just observation.

[De Sisti]

Slight digression, but "Black Girls Hike" is a rather fab group, I follow them on facebook.

Very enjoyable listening to one of the members of Black Girls Hike speak with Clare Balding on
Radio Four's Rambling programme on Saturday 15th May.

Would something similar benefit cycling?

Black cyclists ride audaxes, perhaps?

[Kim]

Black girls hike has a terrific energy (possibly down to the founder, who interviewed very well on the radio).
The whole ethos and organisation is very welcoming to people of any experience, any fitness level. It started as a small local thing and inside of about 2years has spread (not dissimilar to parkrun). Local groups all over.

On a cycling note, honourable mention to Wheels For Wellbeing and - particularly in the last year or so - PRiDE OUT, for doing similarly.   

[Slimline Saxon]

I can only comment on behalf of myself and The Straggler, based on what we tend to see in the East of England, which I feel has an inclusive approach to anyone who wants to ride an event, whatever their stated sex, gender, species, race, body type or sexual orientation. For our part we have German and Chinese heritage, in my case there were obvious prejudices when I was a child in the 1950's in England and also 110 kg bodybuilders do not look very graceful climbing, so I get all the patronising comments that you would expect on sportives, but less so on Audaxes. We may not look like elite athletes, but Raymond has featured in the UK top ten for points, and myself top forty, so we are no mugs. We are Lanternes Rouge because we enjoy the whole experience, and engage with everybody on the ride, particularly those working in the cafes that serve us.

Which leads on to our relationship with women riders. To be fair most are faster than us, so no alpha male problems there. Those that do find themselves close to the twilight zone often ask if they can ride with us as experienced riders, and enjoy the experience, including the many stories that are told. I feel that too often we look for divisions where none exist, we are all there to enjoy the challenge. Simplistic I know, but we are simple people with no personal agendas. I also coach women's football, they kick the ball as hard, they hit you in the tackle, and are footballers just the same, but it is a good discipline to avoid typical male banter, which is at best infantile, and at worst offensive to women. At Team MK my D Group is almost entirely women, they enjoy my leadership and their own companionship, we are all one unit.

There are no easy solutions to increase participation levels, but I think it starts with behaviours on both sides of a perceived divide, and understanding that perhaps we are not really that different after all when it comes to this particular field of sport.

[Cudzoziemiec]

We are Lanternes Rouge because we enjoy the whole experience, and engage with everybody on the ride, particularly those working in the cafes that serve us.

This unit wholeheartedly approves and supports, not to mention partakes of, this attitude. 

it is a good discipline to avoid typical male banter, which is at best infantile, and at worst offensive to women.

TBH I think some "typical male banter" is offensive even to some of those banting; but they do it anyway because expectations, peer pressure, ostracism, etc. All bad reasons but with the capacity to be persuasive. 

[nikki]

I think (from a personal perspective at least) it's been a useful thread.

Great!

Whether the Audax board is the best place for it now I'm not so sure, it certainly has the feel of a POBI topic, but relocation may change the tone of discussion for the worse I fear.

That's made me think of all the "BuT CyCLiNG iSN't PolITiCaL" comments Cycling UK got when they posted messages last year in support of Black Lives Matter and Pride Month. A move to POBI could make some circuits melt!

I'd prefer it if this thread stayed in an open board. Maybe if we think of it as resource for event organisers and a conduct guide for those who attend events?

[Lightning Phil]

There’s some very useful insights shared by the women on this thread.

Thanks for listening 

Is there more I could do?

Here are a few things I've either found useful for me or things others have found useful...


Upthread we mentioned calling out bad behaviour when you see it. This really is key. Also hard. I guess bystander training is the way into getting tips for that. I think someone linked to a resource earlier. Maybe some people can nudge workplaces to provide some - we're pushing for that at the University I'm at. Bonus: works for sexism, racism, homophobia...!

Learning how to spot what things need calling out (kind of a pre-requisite for the above).

• Diversify your social media feeds - listen to what people who are different to you are saying.
• I found the Seeing White podcast really educational for starting to see how systems of whiteness work. They did a series on Men, too. American-centric, but same principles apply.

Tamika Butler has spoken about the Actor > Ally > Accomplice spectrum. See video here: https://abc7news.com/allyship-ways-to-be-an-ally-how-define/6314460/ There are some nice distinctions here, as well as reassurance that you won't get it right every time.

Consent. This has been mentioned in the thread a few times when people spoke of offering help. It's also been omitted plenty of times when people have spoken of giving help. It might need to be explicit (think advice or repair help), it might only need eye contact and a raised eyebrow (think intervening).

• I've had a bit of chat with a cycle repair place in the USA who said that rigorously implementing a consent approach (ask before you diagnose, ask before you touch the bike, ask before you give an opinion...) led to immediately better interactions with his customers and that the feedback is the space is getting a reputation for being welcoming.
• Asking for background information before launching into the advice-giving stage is also a handy way of reducing the risks of mansplaining. "Is your bike set up in that way for a particular reason?" "Would you be interested in a few suggestions for potentially improving x?"
• This article about unsolicited advice was published recently in Canadian Bicycling Magazine. It includes this diagram:
  
  
  
  [Before anyone starts, I know that some people have been trained to observe particular flowchart conventions about what sort of shape outline to use for different processes. Just don't. Really; that's not important in this conversation.]

The Women's New Forest Off Road Club have been doing a lot of work recently to try and head off the fears of potential new riders. This post got a lot of love: https://www.instagram.com/p/COH5x0yF8ej/

On flowchart where it gets to “Help them with the mechanical”.

I know they probably ran out of space. But one of my first questions if someone (at side of road) says they are not ok.  Is ask what the problem is and how can I help?

It may just be that their pump isn’t working, they’ve run out of patches, missing tyre levers, spoke gone and don’t have a spoke key etc. So it may just be a case of handing over your working pump and waiting for it back. If that’s the problem.

I try to administer the minimal assistance I can, if requested.  Not overstep the boundaries of the nature of the assistance requested.

I hope this is the right approach and it’s not thought why isn’t the lazy fucker helping any more than that?

[Peter]

I think that if this thread was locked, it would probably re-surface under another name because it's something that many people have opinions on, or are simply imterested in finding out what others think about the topic.  The topic itself isn't going to disappear anytime soon (or ever) so I think the better approach would be to leave it on and trust in moderators to have private words with people whom they feel have overstepped the mark of reasonable chat.  It seems a real shame that people might leave over a disagreement but I can understand why they might do it.  They could easily feel that an "opponent" in one facet would dismiss them as people (i.e. in every facet), whereas in fact we disagree with each other all the time about some things.  I have several brothers (or several - 1 since Christmas).  We see eye-to-eye about most things because we are all roughly the same height.  But occasionally one of us sits down and we disagree.  But we don't fall out.  The trick is to try to persuade somebody that your view is right (even if it isn't) whilst getting as much cake out of them as possible.  But it's definitely not an admission of guilt to leave a forum.  I think we forget how easy it is to fight when we're not actually in the same room as our opponent - and often we're not really opponents anyway.

Off for a lie-down, now!

[ravenbait]

On flowchart where it gets to “Help them with the mechanical”.

I know they probably ran out of space. But one of my first questions if someone (at side of road) says they are not ok.  Is ask what the problem is and how can I help?

It may just be that their pump isn’t working, they’ve run out of patches, missing tyre levers, spoke gone and don’t have a spoke key etc. So it may just be a case of handing over your working pump and waiting for it back. If that’s the problem.

I try to administer the minimal assistance I can, if requested.  Not overstep the boundaries of the nature of the assistance requested.

I hope this is the right approach and it’s not thought why isn’t the lazy fucker helping any more than that?

First off, you are lovely. If I ever get a mechanical, I hope you are the one who stops and asks if I am okay.

This is unlikely, but never mind.

There was a thread on facebook a while back showing a whole bunch of Keanu Reeves photos in which he was very deliberately not touching the women also in the photo with him. Even where the photographer had clearly asked him to put his arm around the woman, he held it away from her rather than touch.

Every single woman in the comments was absolutely over the moon, complimenting him on this consideration.

(Here is a CNN article on this phenomenon: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/12/entertainment/keanu-reeves-women/index.html )

Women will notice and appreciate your appreciation of their autonomy. I don't think any woman would consider you lazy for not getting more involved unless asked, but also it's totally fine to say, "I respect your personal space, but if you want more assistance I am happy to offer it, just let me know what you need." If I had a breakdown and a man stopped and said that to me, I would be telling all my friends about the super nice man who stopped to help me, and who was respectful and considerate. Women appreciate explicit statements and direct communication.

If I stopped for a woman with a mechanical, I would say something like that rather than assuming she wanted me to step in (or not). Once I'd stopped, and if she needed help, I might offer something specific once I knew what the problem was or if it became obvious she was having difficulty. "Are you having trouble with getting that tyre on? I know a technique that might help. I can show you, if you like?" If she said yes, I would take the wheel at arm's length and do my best to help. If she said no, I would let her get on with it.

I am not a man, and I still make sure I respect the personal space of a woman I don't know.

Sam

[Cudzoziemiec]

And also the other way round; if a man has trouble fitting a tyre (or whatever it may be) and it happens to be a woman who can help, that's great too.

Anyways, I think this is quite a useful thread and it's quite useful that it's in the audax board not in POBI. I think it anchors it more into actual life.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Anyways the second, on audaxes for specific groups of people (in addition to the DIY or perm solution), I do recall that at least one organiser wanted to run events for kids; shorter distances, frequent stops, BP obviously, and ISTR that the kids would ride in one block with parents in a parent block behind them, but I might be misremembering that detail. Seems like another good idea.

[BrianI]

Anyways the second, on audaxes for specific groups of people (in addition to the DIY or perm solution), I do recall that at least one organiser wanted to run events for kids; shorter distances, frequent stops, BP obviously, and ISTR that the kids would ride in one block with parents in a parent block behind them, but I might be misremembering that detail. Seems like another good idea.

I'm sure I saw posts (possibly not on here, but elsewhere on the interwebs) about  introducing 50km Audax Rides for new cyclists who may not be fit enough (or be time pressured to do a full 200km audax), and much grinding of teeth from those who thought doing so is making Audaxes less Audacious  As long as it gets folk on the saddle, while encouraging them to do Audaxes of longer length in the future, then that is a Good Idea!

[Peter]

I don't think anyone was really beefing about that, per se, were they, Brian (?)  - just whether such a ride is an "Audax".  I don't think ACP recognise anything less than 200k as an audax, is all.  Then, half of France doesn't recognise a British role in the liberation of France in World War Eleven.

[mattc]

I have several brothers (or several - 1 since Christmas).  We see eye-to-eye about most things because we are all roughly the same height.  But occasionally one of us sits down and we disagree.  But we don't fall out.  The trick is to try to persuade somebody that your view is right (even if it isn't) whilst getting as much cake out of them as possible.  But it's definitely not an admission of guilt to leave a forum.  I think we forget how easy it is to fight when we're not actually in the same room as our opponent - and often we're not really opponents anyway.

Post of the Thread 

(and my condolences, Peter)

[Peter]

Thanks, Matt.

[Karla]

I think that's it for this thread.  Now we can put it to bed for another ~year until we all have exactly the same argument over again 

In the meantime, all props to ACP!