Women-only audaxes

[Peter]

That post about the canal from Nikki is awful.  I can't answer any of the questions about why people do it, because I've never been in their shoes, or more usually, trainers.  However, it is not solely directed at females (+).  I'm pretty sure it happens to many who are on their own, or in a distinct minority.  I've certainly had attempted intimidation, which I always try to avoid, not just because I'm a coward (I'm not a bruiser, but I prefer to call myself "cautious" - it's a self-esteem thing!)  The trouble with tow-paths is that there is no way to avoid the confrontation, except by turning back and then not only have the oiks  "won", but you don't get where you need to be and will harbour the thought that that could easily be the case again.  It's cowardly behaviour and absolutely despicable.  I'm very sorry for your acquaintance, Nikki and well done for helping her.

Peter 

PS  Just re-read that , Nikki - obviously I'm not sorry for your personal acquaintance because we've never met!  Rather I mean the woman you helped.

[De Sisti]

The worst offender is one of the security guards on the gate.
If you are a woman you won't get to go past his threshold without unsolicited comment being made.
Without fail.
Every. Single. Time.

Make it your duty to report him to those in his line-management chain.

I've drawn his behaviour to the attention of his line manager a number of times.
I suspect that this is why he doesn't speak to me.
As a result of which he gets a very enthusiastic and animated 'Hello!' from me, every day.
Let him squirm.
And hate me.
I'm impervious to it.
I guess that's to do with my privilege.

Well done

[TimC]

It needs somebody to organise a women only audax, otherwise it will never happen.  If one is arranged within reasonable travelling distance of the Midlands, I will willingly pop along and provide support on the day.   I had mooted organising one but currently do not have the capacity and to be honest, a man leading the organisation of a women only audax comes across as a bit odd.

fboab has got it in hand: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=119266.msg2625232#msg2625232

[Jurek]

The worst offender is one of the security guards on the gate.
If you are a woman you won't get to go past his threshold without unsolicited comment being made.
Without fail.
Every. Single. Time.

Make it your duty to report him to those in his line-management chain.

I've drawn his behaviour to the attention of his line manager a number of times.
I suspect that this is why he doesn't speak to me.
As a result of which he gets a very enthusiastic and animated 'Hello!' from me, every day.
Let him squirm.
And hate me.
I'm impervious to it.
I guess that's to do with my privilege.

Well done

Your sarcasm, as that is how I take it, is lost on me.
Do you think you could be a bit more constructive?

[De Sisti]

That is not sarcasm. It is applauding you for having the courage to report the security guard.
Apology will be accepted when it's offered.

[Jurek]

That is not sarcasm. It is applauding you for having the courage to report the security guard.
Apology will be accepted when it's offered.

Apology offered. 

[sojournermike]

These last couple of posts have reminded me of a homeward city centre commute a few years ago: about 5:30, but in January so already dark.

I'd tend to use the canal towpaths to get a few extra miles in without the hassle of Birmingham's aggressive driving. On the canals my risk radar would get triggered every so often, but I didn't generally have any issues. This one time though there was a woman walking along the towpath and she was in an absolute state: distressed, shaking, crying... She was trying to meet up with a canal boat that was trying to relocate the other side of a closure, but she'd had some sort of encounter with some youths, turned back and was too scared to go the way she needed to go.

I stayed with her until she calmed down a bit and was able to describe where it was she was supposed to be meeting the boat. I offered to walk with her, she accepted, and I used all my small talk skillz to try and stop her panicking again. At one point we had to walk past the people who had put her in that state: IIRC 4 or 5 men in their 20s, now jeering at us, asking if we were scared of them.

It's tempting to say we managed to get past and find her crew without further incident, but of course this all has lasting consequences and I'm sure she would have carried that experience with her for a long time. She worked on the canal, maybe even lived there too, so it's not like she could have avoided the reminders. It stuck with me too. Do we think the men gave it a second thought?


So there's something there about how comments, or 'having a laff with the lads' aren't as inconsequential as some people might think them to be. I'm super curious to find out more about what's behind the casual bullying/harassment/intimidation of strangers though, and maybe some of the men here can shed some light on this for me.

It's not uncommon for me to pass a group of men and to get comments about my body, or my hair, or perceived sexual orientation, or my lack of smile, or... It seems that mostly this is a point-scoring exercise amongst the group: I'll typically perceive it as coming from a place of insecurity and weakness rather than as one of strength or power*. If I was with other female friends I'd almost certainly be able to exchange a glance with my companions that would unpack as meaning something like "woah! Trying to compensate for some sort of inadequacy there, we're all immediately assuming small penis aren't we?" In practice of course, this never happens, because the harassers go for the easy target of the lone woman...

So what I'm perpetually baffled by is: if, say, half the population's immediate reaction to provocations like these are "oh, you must have a small penis"
* are the men aware of this?
* if not, how do they think they're being perceived by the women involved?
* how does the point-scoring within the group work? Do they get kudos for random acts of intimidation? What's being demonstrated or proven here, and do they really think that this is equivalent to being 'strong' or 'manly' or 'someone to respect'?
* and does this outweigh the automatic assumption of inadequacy from those outside the group?


I just don't get it.


* I will also be processing it as having the potential to escalate into a more physically dangerous situation

Nikki, I can’t shed any light on this at all I’m afraid - well actually pleased in a way. I saw a CCTV video from Ireland the other day of a group of youths going beyond intimidation and lashing out at young girls trying to board a train. Personally, I’d like to impose some very severe sentences. I think Kim(?) summed up the notion of some perverted group dynamic - but in my male groups hierarchy has never been settled by whose the biggest or loudest mouthed bully at women, or even amongst the group tbh.

I am delighted at your response about their compensation. Well deserved I reckon.

I will repeat what I said earlier though and just note that talking with my female colleagues has been quite shocking - the normality and frequency of bad behaviour in particular.

If anyone wishes to organise a ladies only Audax, or even a non-compliant ride, if it’s accessible from North Yorkshire I’m more than happy to help out and serve up tea and cakes along the route or some such - as people have done for me when I’m riding of course. Obviously understand if you wanted to keep it all female volunteers and all.

Mike

[Cudzoziemiec]

In terms of "why do (groups of young) men do this" I can't say I understand it from the inside, but I think that it's as Kim says; it's performative. It is literally "not about you", it's only about the other members of the group. I don't think it's to do with hierarchy or status within the group so much as marking yourself as being in-group by visibly harassing out-groups. It's a bit like three football fans who might get along fine until they discover two are Arsenal and one is Spurs, only in this case the out-group markers are visible and obvious immediately. Or "postcode gang wars". The feelings of the victim don't, I think, exist in the aggressors' minds, only their reactions. It's a quite successful piece of de-personising.

[Lightning Phil]

I would say you’d have to look at a combination of gang dynamics whether that is young men from deprived backgrounds, to groups of public schoolboys braying, to football gangs. 

They act as a group, with the rules defined by their peers and leaders of those groups.  One thing they probably feel as a group is that they are untouchable.  The only thing that matters is that they fit and belong within their group / gang.

As to their moral compass, it probably didn’t get challenged early enough and often enough, that’s it’s gone way beyond what we’d consider acceptable behaviour and views.

I suspect they may have grown up in male dominated environments, with little normal interaction with girls and women.  Plus no or little parental or peer interventions to correct their behaviour.

[barakta]

Sadly we know that harsh legal sanction don't solve aggressive behaviour towards women, minorities or 'outgroups'. In fact getting into the criminal justice system may make things worse.

What does help we think is socially making the behaviour unacceptable. So not rewarding it in any contexts e.g. work, home, school. Offer perps the chance to be educated, but also don't let them continue unabated once they've had fair warning. Make it clear from the top - people in power - that it is never OK. this comes in various forms, everything from schools telling young women their clothes are too skimpy and will 'affect men' which needs calling as the bullshit it is, to young black kids getting racist bullshittery about their hair in education (also needs calling out by white people as racist shit). We need to start seeing where the discrimination manifests and nobbling it.

I think men modelling good behaviour all the time to their families helps. Explicitly bringing up young men especially to understand sexism and behave both respectfully and supportively towards women helps. It's not enough to be not-sexist not-racist not-homophobic etc etc -- we need to all be proactively anti-discriminatory. We need to talk to young people about this stuff and show then how to handle it when they see it, what can they do, what can we do?

Do like Jurek has done, speak to management about dodgy security guard. Reach out to those harmed and offer support, offer to support people like Nikki did. Also be aware when people can't trust you because you look similar to other perps and don't take it personally but prove by your understanding and behaviour that you are one of the better ones.

[mattc]

Oh, and 'bikesplaining' is a term in use now, for the particular subset of mansplaining that occurs around cycling...

Ah, yet more generalisation and labelling promoting division. That will help!

[Hot Flatus]

Generalisation?  I'd say it's pretty specific

[quixoticgeek]

That post about the canal from Nikki is awful.  I can't answer any of the questions about why people do it, because I've never been in their shoes, or more usually, trainers.  However, it is not solely directed at females (+).  I'm pretty sure it happens to many who are on their own, or in a distinct minority.  I've certainly had attempted intimidation, which I always try to avoid, not just because I'm a coward (I'm not a bruiser, but I prefer to call myself "cautious" - it's a self-esteem thing!)  The trouble with tow-paths is that there is no way to avoid the confrontation, except by turning back and then not only have the oiks  "won", but you don't get where you need to be and will harbour the thought that that could easily be the case again.  It's cowardly behaviour and absolutely despicable.  I'm very sorry for your acquaintance, Nikki and well done for helping her.

Can I draw everyone's attention to something here. Female is an adjective. It is used to proceed something else. Female cat, female badger, female human. In and of itself it doesn't really mean much. It's a bit like saying "cheerfuls". It's rare that people say "Males". You will often hear people say "men's race" and "females race". Every time I hear someone say females. I can't help but think of the ferengi from star trek.

The word most people want, is woman. It's not the fastest female. Or the first female. It's the fastest woman, or the first woman. As I have screamed onto twitter and at the tele many a time. "WOMAN! the word you're looking for is WOMAN!". During the 2019 TCR when Fiona was willing it was an absolutely shitfest of people failing to use the word woman. I pointed this out, then got told the person I had picked on wasn't a native English speaker. So I explained it to them in both German and Dutch (there is a similar difference in the way the languages differentiate).

It's a small thing. But saying a women only audax is a lot more welcoming than a females only audax. Even if the intent is the same. Not to mention that when people say "females" or "female" without following up with something like rider, or human, It puts me on alert that maybe, this person is not an ally. I'm sure you're a lovely person, and it's an innocent mistake, and I hope everyone will learn from this.

Regarding Nikki's story on the tow path, This video did the rounds on twitter. Of boys being boys towards women. On a train platform. Watch to the end.

https://twitter.com/Atlantide4world/status/1391511852341997575

Nikki, I can’t shed any light on this at all I’m afraid - well actually pleased in a way. I saw a CCTV video from Ireland the other day of a group of youths going beyond intimidation and lashing out at young girls trying to board a train. Personally, I’d like to impose some very severe sentences. I think Kim(?) summed up the notion of some perverted group dynamic - but in my male groups hierarchy has never been settled by whose the biggest or loudest mouthed bully at women, or even amongst the group tbh.

See the twitter link above.

I will repeat what I said earlier though and just note that talking with my female colleagues has been quite shocking - the normality and frequency of bad behaviour in particular.

Correct usage of female, as an adjective along side colleague. To go with the start of this post.

Sadly we know that harsh legal sanction don't solve aggressive behaviour towards women, minorities or 'outgroups'. In fact getting into the criminal justice system may make things worse.

What does help we think is socially making the behaviour unacceptable. So not rewarding it in any contexts e.g. work, home, school. Offer perps the chance to be educated, but also don't let them continue unabated once they've had fair warning. Make it clear from the top - people in power - that it is never OK. this comes in various forms, everything from schools telling young women their clothes are too skimpy and will 'affect men' which needs calling as the bullshit it is, to young black kids getting racist bullshittery about their hair in education (also needs calling out by white people as racist shit). We need to start seeing where the discrimination manifests and nobbling it.

I think men modelling good behaviour all the time to their families helps. Explicitly bringing up young men especially to understand sexism and behave both respectfully and supportively towards women helps. It's not enough to be not-sexist not-racist not-homophobic etc etc -- we need to all be proactively anti-discriminatory. We need to talk to young people about this stuff and show then how to handle it when they see it, what can they do, what can we do?

Do like Jurek has done, speak to management about dodgy security guard. Reach out to those harmed and offer support, offer to support people like Nikki did. Also be aware when people can't trust you because you look similar to other perps and don't take it personally but prove by your understanding and behaviour that you are one of the better ones.

Barakta continuing to have 100% accuracy in hitting the nail on the head.

Oh, and 'bikesplaining' is a term in use now, for the particular subset of mansplaining that occurs around cycling...

Ah, yet more generalisation and labelling promoting division. That will help!

Would you prefer correctile dysfunction as a term?

Continuing down the slight tangent of linguistics here.

Guys is not a gender neutral term. So at the start of an event, when someone says, "Ok guys, gather round", or similar. It is exclusionary to women. Now at this point someone will argue with me. "No, guys is gender neutral!". Well It's not. I can answer that simply by asking a question. "How many guys have you dated?". With the follow up question, and how many of those guys were women?

In the before times when we could travel, I was touring European Tech conferences giving lectures on how to improve diversity in IT. This is something I bring up a lot. (That and tell a group of 100 men to be better fathers...). When I did this talk in Copenhagen, (the day before the plague hit and the world ended), I asked the question, and the whole back row of the audience pissed themselves laughing. After the talk, someone from the back row came to apologise. Turns out they were from a gay hacker space, all 8 of them...

The follow up question I get is "Then what should I use instead?"

"Gather round people!"
"Ok folks, can you all hear me?"
"Riders!"
"Minions!"
"Ladies, Gentlemen, and everyone in between."

Being inclusive includes being inclusive in the way we speak. Guys is not gender neutral. Female is an adjective.

This whole post is not aimed at singling out any one person, it's with a hope of educating everyone. Including some of the women, as even women use guys. And, having listened to a couple of triathlon podcasts recently (lake tahoe anyone?), they also use the females thing, and it really jars.

Thanks

J

[citoyen]

correctile dysfunction

That is brilliant!

Guys is not a gender neutral term. So at the start of an event, when someone says, "Ok guys, gather round", or similar. It is exclusionary to women. Now at this point someone will argue with me. "No, guys is gender neutral!". Well It's not. I can answer that simply by asking a question. "How many guys have you dated?". With the follow up question, and how many of those guys were women?

Going off on a slight tangent, I was struck yesterday by the notice in Tesco by the self-scan checkouts telling customers who wanted to pay cash to go to the manned tills. *cringe*

Letter to store manager is on the to-do list.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'm ignoring all the linguistic tangents (apart from correctile dysfunction, which is indeed brilliant) for the good of the thread.

That Irish train station video is shocking. Not only what happens at the end but the way it developed, including the (as far as I could tell, though he might have been saying something) lack of reaction from the security(? in yellow). Never seen anything quite like it.

[Kim]

Going off on a slight tangent, I was struck yesterday by the notice in Tesco by the self-scan checkouts telling customers who wanted to pay cash to go to the manned tills. *cringe*

Every space nerd knows the correct term is 'crewed'.

[quixoticgeek]

Every space nerd knows the correct term is 'crewed'.

Exactly!

The number of times I've screamed that at NASA and space X streams...

J

[arabella]

Continuing down the slight tangent of linguistics here.

Guys is not a gender neutral term. So at the start of an event, when someone says, "Ok guys, gather round", or similar. It is exclusionary to women. Now at this point someone will argue with me. "No, guys is gender neutral!". Well It's not. I can answer that simply by asking a question. "How many guys have you dated?". With the follow up question, and how many of those guys were women?

In the before times when we could travel, I was touring European Tech conferences giving lectures on how to improve diversity in IT. This is something I bring up a lot. (That and tell a group of 100 men to be better fathers...). When I did this talk in Copenhagen, (the day before the plague hit and the world ended), I asked the question, and the whole back row of the audience pissed themselves laughing. After the talk, someone from the back row came to apologise. Turns out they were from a gay hacker space, all 8 of them...

The follow up question I get is "Then what should I use instead?"

"Gather round people!"
"Ok folks, can you all hear me?"
"Riders!"
"Minions!"
"Ladies, Gentlemen, and everyone in between."

Being inclusive includes being inclusive in the way we speak. Guys is not gender neutral. Female is an adjective.

This whole post is not aimed at singling out any one person, it's with a hope of educating everyone. Including some of the women, as even women use guys. And, having listened to a couple of triathlon podcasts recently (lake tahoe anyone?), they also use the females thing, and it really jars.

Thanks

J

In spades.
And please do not think "guys and girls" is acceptable either. I'm a grownup, my children are grownups; I was last a 'girl' in the mid 1980s.  The only possible exception is "boys and girls".

Please don't tell me guys in the dictionary either.  It didn't use to be.  It got there because (you and) mumble people couldn't be bothered to use an inclusive term.  If I called you all "ladies" for the next 20 years - would any bloke agree they were a lady?

If you want to be Chaucerian there is also "gentles"

[Philip Whiteman]

I absolutely cringe at "guys".  When it comes to my salutations to participants on my audax events, I limit expressions to pronouns such as 'audaxer', 'everyone', etc.   This is not necessarily a means of avoiding binary expression, but is instead an attempt to avoid words that feel rather old fashioned.

[quixoticgeek]

I absolutely cringe at "guys".  When it comes to my salutations to participants on my audax events, I limit expressions to 'audaxer', 'everyone', etc.   This is not a deliberate attempt to avoid binary nouns, rather an attempt to address fellow cyclists.

I am the only woman in the company I work for.

When ever anyone says guys, I just assume they don't include me. "Guys, your desks are a mess, can you tidy up?"

*me does not move*

J

[woollypigs]

Thanks for this thread. Here's hoping that I will not be a dick.

I try my best to be better like with regards to the linguistics, for me it is just darn hard to change after 50 odd years of using certain terms for certain things. So I do know I sometimes slip up and I'm every so sorry for doing so, but I'm trying to learn. And that why this thread is brilliant.

I have for a long time wanted to help out on X group rides* because I think it is a wonderful idea as it will help to get more people into something I really enjoy - that being going on a world tour, fun, commuting, racing or just because. But being a white male this often is the reason for the X only, and therefore I haven't asked if I could help when it comes to hiking, cycling etc.

* some I'm very jealous about cause what I have read about these group ride/hikes/camping trips is just what I want to do. The write up sound just like great fun were had. Many times without that "I'm better/faster/stronger/have better gear than you", that you often get on male dominated rides. Which have stopped me a few times joining a club or group trip/hike/etc.

[Peter]

@ quixoticgeek

I accept that you obviously don't like female used as a noun and i usually avoid it myself but am frequently writing on here when I am technically asleep!  However, the use of the word "male" instead of man is also rife, if nowhere near as common as the use of "female" for women.  And it is definitely the case that many people use "female" but "man" rather than male.  I can see how that grates.  But Female as a noun goes back to at least the 14th century and is still correct, if clumsy and these days somewhat inelegant.

I can confirm that I am indeed a lovely person - but it was not an "innocent mistake".  It wasn't a mistake at all, just not preferred.

I certainly don't intend to give offence and I try to be open-minded, so if you want to respond, please do!  As Groucho said, "That's my opinion - if you don't like it, I have others."

Peter

PS Definitely agree with all the "guys/chaps" stuff

[quixoticgeek]

@ quixoticgeek

I accept that you obviously don't like female used as a noun and i usually avoid it myself but am frequently writing on here when I am technically asleep!  However, the use of the word "male" instead of man is also rife, if nowhere near as common as the use of "female" for women.  And it is definitely the case that many people use "female" but "man" rather than male.  I can see how that grates.  But Female as a noun goes back to at least the 14th century and is still correct, if clumsy and these days somewhat inelegant.

Just cos it's correct according to a linguistic history, doesn't mean that it isn't wrong now. I hear this sort of thing all the time from Males. It's either like you say trying to justify using females, or it's the guys thing. The reality is, women do not like being called females. And we ask that males please stop doing so. Whether you feel that the dictionary allows you to do so. The reality is, its just not nice.

When every someone says females, this is what I see:



J

PS Yes I know I have used males as a noun in this post, it's because I'm trying to make a point. It reads horribly doesn't it? It's much nicer if I word it as "I hear this sort of thing all the time from men." isn't it?

[Peter]

J.  That's absolutely, fine, thank you - I am awake now and have made note to try harder!

By the way, on the"....... this is what I see" - I can't see anything in your message at that point, i.e. no link or picture, etc.  Can you re-send, or might it be a problem with my browser?

Peter

[ravenbait]

Thanks for this thread. Here's hoping that I will not be a dick.

I try my best to be better like with regards to the linguistics, for me it is just darn hard to change after 50 odd years of using certain terms for certain things. So I do know I sometimes slip up and I'm every so sorry for doing so, but I'm trying to learn. And that why this thread is brilliant.

I am guilty of occasionally using "guys". Ironically, I do it when everyone is a woman. It's a word I learned as gender neutral and always used as such. I feel this is annoying enough to enough women that I have to stop, but I do sometimes slip (normally when my TTRPG group have their characters sitting in a pub talking about something inconsequential for half an hour, when we only have 3 hours to save the world, so I'm trying to get them back on track). I always apologise and correct myself.

Culture in the west assumes men are superior, and our language follows through with that. Men are not the only ones guilty of using patriarchal language -- we've all been indoctrinated into it (unless we are super lucky to have had parents who actively worked against that). What's important is that we try, recognise when we get it wrong, and try to do better.

* some I'm very jealous about cause what I have read about these group ride/hikes/camping trips is just what I want to do. The write up sound just like great fun were had. Many times without that "I'm better/faster/stronger/have better gear than you", that you often get on male dominated rides. Which have stopped me a few times joining a club or group trip/hike/etc.

The Dumb Run was like this and wasn't X only. What I've found really helps is when all the people on a ride know each other in some way and are going to have to continue to interact and be friends afterwards. And sometimes that's down to the organiser setting out expectations in advance. For the Dumb Run I always made it clear there would be no dropping people, there was no get there faster, it was a sociable ride that wasn't so much organised as a bunch of friends choosing to ride the same route at the same time, together -- in other words, a group effort to have a good time. I just happened to be the one printing the route. I was the only woman on these rides, but I never had any bother from the others. The Dun Run rides where I've stuck with a small group or even one other person for the ride have been the best. I'm not sure this is in the spirit of audax, really, which comes across as being about one bearded gent vs the elements and his own endurance.

When you take into consideration how hard society drills into women the idea that they are vulnerable on their own, this might be something to think about.

Sam