Author Topic: Women-only audaxes  (Read 26832 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #275 on: 26 May, 2021, 10:32:19 am »
Going back to the groups of jeering, intimidating, bullying men: Episode 2 of this podcast https://www.sceneonradio.org/episode-48-aint-no-amoeba-men-part-2/ (which Nikki linked to a few pages back, so it won't answer the "why" question which I think she asked, but read on) discusses violence and mentions testosterone and the fact that in societies worldwide, it's men who are responsible for the bulk of violence. But it goes on to point out that hormones don't act in a vacuum; their effect is modified by the individual and by culture. But in fact culture and biology can't really be separated; culture is created by biological beings using the methods biologically available to them, and then feeds back into that biology in an endless loop. (Which might imply that the creation of cultures is a biological need common to a wide variety of species? But that's just me speculating and really belongs elsewhere.)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #276 on: 26 May, 2021, 12:54:00 pm »
I committed the sin of mansplaining early last year. Only afterwards with horror realised what I'd done. Still really embarrassed, thought I knew better. Was being really quite rude to someone I like and admire.


It is easily done; just requires being thoughtless and oblivious  :facepalm:

It is easily done, especially if that is the sort of behaviour you have had modelled for you from first consciousness, and amplified literally everywhere, even by women* who are socialised into it too.

*#notallwomen  :P

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #277 on: 26 May, 2021, 03:07:30 pm »
I got a bit lost for a while in Wondermark

http://wondermark.com/c1492/

Have been known to do that on social media, usually if the person hits my triggers of right wing forin bad sort of thing.

Reading some of the posts on here, I understand the need for women only audaxs, and hope that we can change attitudes and society so they are not neccessary.

I'll bypass the rest of the post. I'm sure you're lovely and all your underlings think so too.

It's not for you, me or anyone else to determine whether any exclusionary leisure events are necessary. It's actually none of our business - if someone wishes to run a ride for left-handed butchers, so what? Running that ride makes absolutely no difference to the thousands of rides that are held for people who don't fit those criteria. However, even though they don't exclude left-handed butchers, those rides don't quite fit their needs. I have no problem with anyone determining what criteria they use to define their event; the likelihood is that they have a damn good reason for excluding some people - just as I do when I have a party at my house. It just isn't an issue for anyone else to comment on. If you're not invited, tough.


Not so sure about the lovely.

I sort of agree with you, but the thing that I'm trying to say is tho it is none of my business I understand why it occurs.



Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #278 on: 26 May, 2021, 03:20:08 pm »
Reading some of the posts on here, I understand the need for women only audaxs, and hope that we can change attitudes and society so they are not neccessary.

But then I look at my actions and am guilty.  The issue is that I don't see the issue from both sides just mine.  The DM thing, I message people to say hello, ask how they are or ask follow up things that aren't relevant to asking on the forum.  I see it as chatting to one side of the group.

There's a big difference between DMing someone to discuss some nuance that's verging off-topic (as long as your DMee is happy with this, of course), and DMing someone on the basis that everything they are saying on thread is posturing for the purposes of looking good in public, and in private they will agree with you because you are obviously right so anything posted in disagreement is either deliberate virtue-signalling or a case of misunderstanding. If only you can berate them some more with hyperbolic examples, they will confess to agreement! What if all audaxes were women only? AUK wouldn't get revenue from men any more!

That's the kind of DM I was getting. It's a bit like being doorstepped by a politician from a party whose policies you disagree with fundamentally.

Is your DMee a friend? Are you on friendly terms, even? Are they likely to appreciate you sending a private message to catch up with them? Are you genuinely offering to help in a way you don't want the whole forum knowing about but which the DMee would definitely appreciate? Go for it.

Do you have the kind of relationship where you discuss things that might not be suitable for public view? If so, no problem!

Are you DMing to avoid public scrutiny of some outrageous nonsense, or because you don't believe the persona portrayed on the forum can be real because that persona doesn't agree with you? Or, worse, are you cold-calling with a personal proposition? No! Do not!

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In all my employment. I had support staff, majority female.  I always took the time to learn birthdays and likes and dislikes and say thank you for helping me.  Say we were somewhere getting lunch and staff were there I would pay for the sandwiches.  If I was nipping out for a snack or coffee run, I would always ask if the support staff wanted anything while out.   Some non support staff thought it was strange, or that I was on the pull were the reasons for doing that.  My gesture was not altruistic, but the intention was to be nice and polite.  Made me think that I was doing the same thing but to a lesser scale.

The phenomenon of men being nice because they want to have sex is ridiculously widespread. The concept of "the friend zone" is entirely because too many men[1] consider personal relationships to be transactional, and if they've paid for dinner, for instance, then the woman should be offering to share her bed. It is SO prevalent that some women now look upon men who are genuinely nice with suspicion, and this is truly tragic, and is yet another reason why men need to step up and say this stuff Is Not Cool. Men who indulge in gameifying relationships and men who are "red pillers" or who consider themselves to be "Men's Rights Activists" have ruined it for the rest of you. Sorry. Women treating the behaviour with suspicion is a valid defence that has come about because of the selfish jerks who whine about not being able to get laid despite being "nice".

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/nice-guy-syndrome-dating-tactics-persona-men-women-relationships-a7476651.html

The problem for women is that it's hard to tell when a man is being nice because he's genuinely nice, and when he's going to escalate into entitled bullshit until he does it.

Sam
[1] More than zero men.

Suspect I am turning this in to a me thing, and going way off topic.  Thank you tho.


I committed the sin of mansplaining early last year. Only afterwards with horror realised what I'd done. Still really embarrassed, thought I knew better. Was being really quite rude to someone I like and admire.


It is easily done; just requires being thoughtless and oblivious  :facepalm:

I have been known to mansplain and if I notice I stop and apologise.  Hope that if I start mansplaining that the person can tell me so I can be more self aware.

Also sorry more about me and irrelevant.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #279 on: 26 May, 2021, 06:02:04 pm »
Cool. I guess that is your approach to racism, too??

Point being that it isn't just 'people being irritating', <snip>

I don't think "deal with it" really cuts it, to be honest, Matt.
Oh my - are you now operating a parody account? That is hilarious.

First you try to associate the behaviour with sexual assault and violence against women.
Then - getting a bit desperate now, perhaps - you put it on a level with racism!

Sorry, but I'm happy to stick with what I posted. Your ridiculous comparisons leave me unmoved (except for making me smirk, I admit to that.)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #280 on: 26 May, 2021, 06:09:27 pm »

"I am making a movie [an adult explicit movie] about muscular men with short hair. Would you be in it?"
Are we even talking about the same thing?
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Mansplaining (a blend word of man and the informal form splaining of the gerund explaining) is a pejorative term meaning "(of a man) to comment on or explain something to a woman in a condescending, overconfident, and often inaccurate or oversimplified manner".[1][2][3][4] Author Rebecca Solnit ascribed the phenomenon to a combination of "overconfidence and cluelessness".[5] Lily Rothman, of The Atlantic, defined it as "explaining without regard to the fact that the explainee knows more than the explainer, often done by a man to a woman".[6]

In its original use, mansplaining differed from other forms of condescension in that it was said to be rooted in the assumption that a man is likely to be more knowledgeable than a woman

Imagine getting crap like that every time you were out with a bunch of people of the opposite sex, and then being told it has nothing to do with sexism but just people being idiots and you should "just deal with it." Why would you? I mean, really? Why would you?
I'm talking about mansplaining. I'm not talking about every bit of sexist rude threatening behaviour you have ever been on the end of.

The difference is quite clear to me.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #281 on: 26 May, 2021, 06:11:00 pm »
Cool. I guess that is your approach to racism, too??

Point being that it isn't just 'people being irritating', <snip>

I don't think "deal with it" really cuts it, to be honest, Matt.
Oh my - are you now operating a parody account? That is hilarious.

First you try to associate the behaviour with sexual assault and violence against women.
Then - getting a bit desperate now, perhaps - you put it on a level with racism!

Sorry, but I'm happy to stick with what I posted. Your ridiculous comparisons leave me unmoved (except for making me smirk, I admit to that.)

Bolded: What on earth are you on about? Are you on drugs?

Racism: you've completely and utterly missed the point. I haven't put it on a level with racism. I'm noting your dismissal of a (relatively) unempowered group's concerns and asking if you do the same to other marginalised groups.

The fact that you have misread this so badly underlines the likelihood that in your initial post you were doing a #notallmen. You don't realise it because you don't take women's concerns with any seriousness at all, which is at the nub of this entire thread.

That part doesn't surprise me. What surprises me is your blindness to the obvious. You are normally a little more perspicacious.


Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #282 on: 26 May, 2021, 06:23:31 pm »
Despite forumming for ooooh 16 or 17 years I'm still perplexed that anyone could take themselves so seriously as to want to perpetuate an online bickering via PM. And that is before we even get to the creepy patriarchal stuff.

You clearly never got on the wrong side of Mal Volio in your 16-17 years.

ravenbait

  • Someone's imaginary friend
  • No, RB3, you can't have more tupperware.
    • Someone's imaginary friend
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #283 on: 26 May, 2021, 06:29:51 pm »
First you try to associate the behaviour with sexual assault and violence against women.
Then - getting a bit desperate now, perhaps - you put it on a level with racism!

It's similar in the sense that people who deny black people are treated differently because of institutional racism also exist. "They're not racist, they're just twats."

Your argument seems to fall along the same lines, so I can see the similarity. "You're not being subjected to sexism, love, these are what we men call 'rude people.' Don't you worry your silly little head about it, I'm sure they are rude to everyone."

No. They are not. The very definition of "mansplaining" is a man refusing to accept a women has equal or more knowledge than the man doing the explaining. Men don't tend to pull this particularly irritating trick on their fellow men. They might disagree, but they don't do shit like this:

Quote
We were preparing to leave, when our host said, “No, stay a little longer so I can talk to you.” He was an imposing man who’d made a lot of money.

He kept us waiting while the other guests drifted out into the summer night, and then sat us down at his authentically grainy wood table and said to me, “So? I hear you’ve written a couple of books.”

I replied, “Several, actually.”

He said, in the way you encourage your friend’s seven-year-old to describe flute practice, “And what are they about?”

They were actually about quite a few different things, the six or seven out by then, but I began to speak only of the most recent on that summer day in 2003, River of Shadows: Eadweard Muybridge and the Technological Wild West, my book on the annihilation of time and space and the industrialization of everyday life.

He cut me off soon after I mentioned Muybridge. “And have you heard about the very important Muybridge book that came out this year?”

So caught up was I in my assigned role as ingénue that I was perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that another book on the same subject had come out simultaneously and I’d somehow missed it. He was already telling me about the very important book — with that smug look I know so well in a man holding forth, eyes fixed on the fuzzy far horizon of his own authority...

So, Mr. Very Important was going on smugly about this book I should have known when Sallie interrupted him to say, “That’s her book.” Or tried to interrupt him anyway.

But he just continued on his way. She had to say, “That’s her book” three or four times before he finally took it in. And then, as if in a nineteenth-century novel, he went ashen. That I was indeed the author of the very important book it turned out he hadn’t read, just read about in the New York Times Book Review a few months earlier, so confused the neat categories into which his world was sorted that he was stunned speechless — for a moment, before he began holding forth again.

https://tomdispatch.com/rebecca-solnit-the-archipelago-of-arrogance/

I don't know a single man who has gone into a bike shop and been very specific about what they want, only for the shop person to insist he is, in fact, wrong, and what he needs is this completely different thing. I've known men to be told the thing they want isn't available, and this other thing might work instead. I've even known a shop person say he wouldn't recommend that particular thing, because this other thing does the same job only better. I have never, ever seen a man be told, "No, love, you don't want that. You want this."

Quote
Sorry, but I'm happy to stick with what I posted. Your ridiculous comparisons leave me unmoved (except for making me smirk, I admit to that.)

So you're just gaslighting now, is that it? Or being a troll, maybe? It's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #284 on: 26 May, 2021, 06:32:24 pm »
Matt, has your account been, as Flatus would say, "bonjed"?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #285 on: 26 May, 2021, 06:35:06 pm »
Despite forumming for ooooh 16 or 17 years I'm still perplexed that anyone could take themselves so seriously as to want to perpetuate an online bickering via PM. And that is before we even get to the creepy patriarchal stuff.

You clearly never got on the wrong side of Mal Volio in your 16-17 years.

Oh I didn't say I was unaware that people did this, just that I still completely fail to understand why they would do it. Funny you should bring up Malvolio...I did get on his wrong side in the end, he blocked me on Facebook  ;D ;D ;D

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #286 on: 26 May, 2021, 06:39:43 pm »
Matt, has your account been, as Flatus would say, "bonjed"?

I've never seen Bonj and Matt c in the same room.

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #287 on: 26 May, 2021, 09:55:20 pm »
Someone has suggested the idea of organising Audax events that are exclusively for women riders.  What do people think about this?

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #288 on: 27 May, 2021, 08:14:16 am »
Someone has suggested the idea of organising Audax events that are exclusively for women riders.  What do people think about this?

Personally, I think it's a great idea. Unfortunately, some people seem to have taken offence at the suggestion and so they need explaining why it actually is a great idea and not a threat to them.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #289 on: 27 May, 2021, 08:19:54 am »
No. They are not. The very definition of "mansplaining" is a man refusing to accept a women has equal or more knowledge than the man doing the explaining. Men don't tend to pull this particularly irritating trick on their fellow men. They might disagree, but they don't do shit like this:

I was going to mention that story after seeing Rebecca Solnit's name cited in the definition of mansplaining mattc shared. Classic. (Sharing the definition of mansplaining with you here was an interesting move - do you think he was being ironic?)

There's also the time Russell Brand explained feminism to Deborah Frances White. File under you couldn't make it up.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #290 on: 27 May, 2021, 08:25:21 am »
Someone has suggested the idea of organising Audax events that are exclusively for women riders.  What do people think about this?

Personally, I think it's a great idea. Unfortunately, some people seem to have taken offence at the suggestion and so they need explaining why it actually is a great idea and not a threat to them.

If it gets more women on bike great, same with if someone wants to organise a BAME audax. No one asking for these things is asking for permanent segregation, just to create a safe space for people to do these things. Hopefully it then actually creates a stronger atmosphere and actually encourages people to ride together.

It's been a long time coming but hopefully cycling with a zero tolerance to sexism, racism and LBGT+ phobia is just around the corner.

BrianI

  • Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Lepidopterist Man!
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #291 on: 27 May, 2021, 09:19:52 am »
Someone has suggested the idea of organising Audax events that are exclusively for women riders.  What do people think about this?
I think it's a great idea, hopefully it will encourage women to take part in mixed gender events in time.

What are your thoughts on this?

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #292 on: 27 May, 2021, 02:17:36 pm »
Someone has suggested the idea of organising Audax events that are exclusively for women riders.  What do people think about this?
I think it's a great idea, hopefully it will encourage women to take part in mixed gender events in time.

What are your thoughts on this?

I entirely support this idea.  I proposed such an idea two years ago in another place.  Current AUK regulations would require amendment but that is hardly insurmountable as they currently allow for 'all' to enter.  Outside matters meant that I never managed organise such an event though I would willingly help and support an event that is located nearby.

All it takes is somebody to put in the time and effort to launch an event. More often than not, hands firmly hit the floor when a show of hands is requested.
Organiser of Droitwich Cycling Club audaxes.  https://www.droitwichcyclingclub.co.uk/audax/

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #293 on: 27 May, 2021, 06:00:59 pm »

I was going to mention that story after seeing Rebecca Solnit's name cited in the definition of mansplaining mattc shared. Classic. (Sharing the definition of mansplaining with you here was an interesting move - do you think he was being ironic?)
That's kinda how grown-up polite discussion works, citoyen; quoting respected and/or established sources, where you feel it's relevant to your point.

Surely you've seen this before?
(The main other technique on the web is name-calling, we could try that if you really want ...)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #294 on: 27 May, 2021, 06:07:04 pm »
Someone has suggested the idea of organising Audax events that are exclusively for women riders.  What do people think about this?

Personally, I think it's a great idea. Unfortunately, some people seem to have taken offence at the suggestion and so they need explaining why it actually is a great idea and not a threat to them.

If it gets more women on bike great, same with if someone wants to organise a BAME audax. No one asking for these things is asking for permanent segregation, just to create a safe space for people to do these things. Hopefully it then actually creates a stronger atmosphere and actually encourages people to ride together.

Yup. I have a few issues with segregation e.g. women-only clubs, but this is nothing of the sort, so go for it!

<snip...>

All it takes is somebody to put in the time and effort to launch an event. More often than not, hands firmly hit the floor when a show of hands is requested.
Well quite - talk is cheap on the internet.

I'd like to give a shout-out to @fboab who - some pages back - offered to run a group perm. Seems like a constructive move  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #295 on: 27 May, 2021, 06:12:09 pm »
Ooh the irony

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #296 on: 27 May, 2021, 06:20:16 pm »
Ooh the irony
<yawn> Do you and Citoyen have a different record?

(Have I "bonjed"? Whatever that may mean - you've been using it for years, and I've generally inferred that it means "disagreeing with Flatus". Oh my! )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #297 on: 27 May, 2021, 06:28:05 pm »
That's kinda how grown-up polite discussion works, citoyen; quoting respected and/or established sources, where you feel it's relevant to your point.

First, you're mansplaining mansplaining.

Second, the definition you quoted contradicts what you previously said about it:

Either way - mansplaining or the erectile joke - it's taking an annoying behaviour, dumping it on men (who are hardly the only sex to do it) and churning it out in every discussion about situations where men interact with women (or vice versa if you prefer ;) ).

If you'd done a wee bit more research, you'd have come across the Rebecca Solnit story about having her own book explained to her by a man who hadn't read it. That is not just "an annoying behaviour", it's a particular type of annoying behaviour that men perpetrate against women.

As for "churning it out etc", the term didn't enter the discussion until page 6, where it was mentioned in passing by nikki among a lot of other more interesting and useful stuff, so you're basically narrowing in on something that isn't significant, which is a cheap way of derailing the discussion as a means of deflection. And again, comes across as very defensive.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #298 on: 27 May, 2021, 08:13:37 pm »
Someone has suggested the idea of organising Audax events that are exclusively for women riders.  What do people think about this?

Sigh - looks like I failed again.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Women-only audaxes
« Reply #299 on: 27 May, 2021, 08:18:35 pm »
Someone has suggested the idea of organising Audax events that are exclusively for women riders.  What do people think about this?

Sigh - looks like I failed again.

May I suggest herding cats as a far easier hobby than trying to corral a discussion on an internet forum?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."