Author Topic: A different angle?  (Read 10812 times)

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #25 on: 09 July, 2021, 03:08:05 pm »
[IMG] https://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyh1942/51300385838/in/dateposted-public/[IMG]

That's from Julie Welch, "Out on Your Feet... the Hallucinatory World of Hundred-Mile Walking".

I think there's a picture of me [in Audax Cymru jersey] doing it during the 2012 "24", in one of Damon's films. (It happened after about 20 hours, in spite of the out-of-this-world wonderful support I'd had from LWaB and HK earlier on. Later still, my back hurt quite a lot... needed "curing" with a 5-minute liedown every couple of miles.)

Of course, no photo of it can show how upright the rider/walker thinks they are.

ravenbait

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #26 on: 09 July, 2021, 03:18:30 pm »
If I sit at my desk and look at a vertical object, so I know nothing's moving, the close my left eye, the object stays in the same position against the background. If I close my right eye, it moves. My right eye's input to my visual processing is somehow dominant over that of my left eye, but I don't know if that means it's more correct. I understand this is usual (obviously which eye it is varies).

It doesn't mean it's more correct, just that your brain weights that way.

I lost my right eye at 15 months but probably should have been right eye dominant. I am now obligatory left-handed for some things and right-handed for others. Occasionally, I still feel like I can see out of my right eye. The brain is weird.

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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #27 on: 09 July, 2021, 03:37:01 pm »
Though doesn't that also assume that both eyes are "equally wrong" when in fact they might be differently wrong? For instance, one might be slightly closer to the centreline of your head – however you determine that.
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LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #28 on: 09 July, 2021, 03:52:30 pm »
What does that matter? If you are assessing things using both eyes individually, unless you are the Elephant Man, your body centreline is midway between your eyes.
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ravenbait

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #29 on: 09 July, 2021, 04:07:33 pm »
What does that matter? If you are assessing things using both eyes individually, unless you are the Elephant Man, your body centreline is midway between your eyes.

Is it? I constantly walk into doors on the right side because my sense of me is off to the left. It caused me no end of trouble when doing ju-jitsu. If your brain puts more weight on one side than the other, I wonder if your sense of self as a binocular person is also slightly off-centre.

Sam
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LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #30 on: 09 July, 2021, 05:14:49 pm »
I am not interested in the philosophy of this. I just want to find the cause and the solution to the lean before it affects me.

The lean may contribute to some crashes during long rides and it certainly scares the bejesus out of those around affected folk. I have shepherded several afflicted riders to the finish of long brevets (starting at PBP11, usually by riding in a straight line beside them and acting as a solid boundary between them and passing traffic) and it is quite mentally taxing.

The lean might be related to proprioception, rather than just limited core strength. If so, there should be a strategy to minimise the potential for lean developing during a long ride. We just have to find it.
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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #31 on: 09 July, 2021, 06:07:54 pm »
It appears to be a combination of fatigue and lack of core strength, but I don't know how or why the lean happens.  I've seen Marina Bloom on a lean towards the end of a 24.

I've seen an elderly cyclist near the end of PBP leaning a lot to the left and cycling in lefthand semicircles, dragging the bars round to veer towards the centre of the road each time he approached the verge.  Fortunately, he came to a halt whilst I was still working out how to pass him safely.

There's a story of Brian Morris complaining that his bike wasn't steering properly, kept veering to one side (PBP again).  John Thacker said he tried the bike & it was fine, but Brian couldn't walk in a straight line.

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #32 on: 09 July, 2021, 06:43:12 pm »
I used to be able to ride no handed on an upright easily, but now the bike veers to the left unless I lean to the right a lot.
I can see the down tube to the right of the top tube when riding.

I have a curved spine (possibly due to a gym injury years ago which makes me use the other side in preference) which has got more pronounced as I've got older.
If I walk with my hips straight the right side of my upper body is more forward than the left, if I put my body in line my hips are out and I walk like a crab.
Lower back aches after a long time on the bike (or standing and sitting) as the muscles are trying to pull me back straight again and it gets more pronounced when the muscles get tired.

Like a lot of long time cyclists, I have a strong posterior chain which doesn't help things. Large glutes and sitting down all day means that my hips tilt down at the front. Basically I walk like a duck!
Core strength would likely help a lot as that would bring my hips up at the front and help with lower back pain.
Like a lot of others, I don't do ab exercises in with my fitness routine  ;D

You counteract it when riding but I suppose it would get worse after a long time in the saddle. I would veer to the left if I was tired and not thinking about correcting it.
I don't do long distance on an upright and it's not so noticeable on the recumbent, but I do sit crooked on it.


Re: A different angle?
« Reply #33 on: 10 July, 2021, 12:10:10 am »
I was told by an ENT surgeon at a talk that we use 3 sources of information for balance:

1. Sight
2. Vestibular system (semicircular canals in your ears)
3. Proprioception (joint position sense in your neck)

Apparently we can can compensate if one is knocked out but cannot manage with one alone

Perhaps the older riders have some pre-existing sight or vestibular impairment that they can compensate for ordinarily but is exposed when the prolonged riding time starts to affect their neck proprioception?
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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #34 on: 10 July, 2021, 06:23:26 am »
I have seen this too. The last time was on a 600k in France. It was a French guy and he was leaning to the left a lot and his bike was offset to the right. He kept pulling to the right and hitting the edge of the road. Everyone was getting nervous and staying clear so I gave him 4 glucose (dextro) sweets and told him stop for a few minutes and eat these. He did as instructed and we went on. 10km later we stopped at a cafe and just when we were getting ready to go he arrives. I was amazed he was totally recovered and finished with us.
So was it the magic beans or the placebo effect, I have no idea.
He had absolutely no idea what I gave him.

Off topic, you all have probably experienced finding a very old out of date flattened mars bar in the saddle bag and eating it anyway. I had to look for the glucose sweets to find the name to discover their expiry date is 6/2015  :smug:

zigzag

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #35 on: 10 July, 2021, 09:31:09 am »
i've seen an elderly guy sitting a bit sideways and leaning on pbp, towards the end. i asked if he was ok, he said he had a bad saddle sore on one side and tried not to sit on it.

T42

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #36 on: 10 July, 2021, 10:58:28 am »
I know that when I get tired my head tends to lean to the right, but the rest of me stays upright.  The chap I did PBP 2007 with rode Brest-Carhaix with the bike canted one way and him the other. He packed at Carhaix.
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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #37 on: 10 July, 2021, 02:43:17 pm »
I am not interested in the philosophy of this. I just want to find the cause and the solution to the lean before it affects me.

The reason I queried was because sight is one of the senses that the brain uses to keep you upright, along with proprioception and your sense of balance. All three of these sensory systems merely feed into the brain's model of itself in space, rather than directly controlling body position. Not having experienced this phenomenon, I can't hazard a guess as to which of the "keep me upright" model feedback mechanisms are failing. It could be that eye dominance has something to do with it when fatigue sets in, as if your sense of self is offcentre, this can affect your proprioceptive awareness. I strongly suspect training that contributes to proprioceptive accuracy and enhances body awareness and balance (yoga, for instance) would help.

Sam
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LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #38 on: 10 July, 2021, 03:58:44 pm »
If anything, it is the lack of visual dominance in determining balance. When I have chatted with folk leaning left (e.g.) and told them to lean right until they are vertical, they think they are leaning hard right. This is despite them looking down and seeing that they are now centred over the bike. If they don’t continue to visually monitor staying centred, they gradually lean over, same as before.

The leaners are obviously taking more notice of non-visual balance contributions. It might be vestibular or perhaps proprioception (not just the neck). I think it might be the latter but want somebody who knows a lot more about it to think about this problem.

LEL and PBP are coming round again and there will be yet more leaners on the road.

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #39 on: 10 July, 2021, 07:49:56 pm »
Postman Piers was born without a vestibular system, and rides a bicycle just fine (no weird leaning that I've noticed), as long as he can see enough to have a sense of the horizon.  In the days before decent LED lighting he was a proponent of those turbo nutter bastard halogen MTB lights (the ones with the battery that filled the bottle cage in order to achieve decent runtime) in order to not end up doing a Basil on the towpath at night.

(Interestingly, he has awesome powers of proprioception.  He walked into our London flat and immediately pointed out the kitchen floor wasn't level.  It was a drop of a centimetre or so over the width of a London kitchen, and general woodwork wonkiness meant it wasn't obvious visually.)

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #40 on: 10 July, 2021, 08:26:15 pm »
Oh dear. You've now got me earworming "Postman Piers, Postman Piers. Postman Piers and his supersonic ears". To the Postman Pat tune, obvs. Not sure why his ears are supersonic, it's just the word my earworm cortex provided (kind of fits though).
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Kim

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #41 on: 10 July, 2021, 08:27:59 pm »
Oh dear. You've now got me earworming "Postman Piers, Postman Piers. Postman Piers and his supersonic ears". To the Postman Pat tune, obvs. Not sure why his ears are supersonic, it's just the word my earworm cortex provided (kind of fits though).

Bionic would be more appropriate.

He did, for a while, have a black & white cat.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #42 on: 11 July, 2021, 08:45:57 am »
My current state of thought:
The lean seems likely to be more strongly linked to proprioception than to visual or vestibular feedback.

My vague memory is that riders mostly keep their heads level, even when their bodies are leaning a long way. Photos would help, replacing unreliable memory. I think afflicted individuals lean in a consistent direction in multiple events but I don’t know many people who experienced the lean on multiple events. The lean doesn’t relate to road camber but is almost always experienced by older riders.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception gives a thumbnail explanation of how muscle length and pressure is automatically assessed, together with limb movement approaching joint angle limits. Riders’ perception of feeling as though they are sitting upright on their bike, despite actually experiencing a significant lean, seems to align with a mismatch between actual and perceived muscle feedback.

Steve Hogg, who’s opinions regarding bike fit approaches a significant level of woo, thinks that proprioception and body asymmetry significantly affects how people sit on bicycles. https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20036285/steve-hogg/
I agree with that basic concept, if not a number of the factors that he thinks are influences.

Riders tend to need adjustments in their bike fit to optimise comfort and power as their flexibility, training and strength alters over time i.e. bike fit is a moving target. Older riders tend to lose muscle, height, flexibility and power compared to their youth but are often resistant to altering a riding position that “has worked well for me for years”.

Long events are all about remaining comfortable and maintaining consistent power.

Perhaps the lean is caused by fatigue of secondary muscles that have been overloaded during long bike rides by poor core strength and imperfect bike fit?

Time for folk to poke holes in my ramblings and for somebody who actually knows about this subject to set me straight or suggest ways to take this further.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #43 on: 14 July, 2021, 09:31:30 pm »
I have no experience of seeing riders lean on long events but I do regularly treat patients in my clinic (I am a Chiropractor and Sports and Remedial Massage Therapist) who have a side flexed posture.  I will try to explain in layman's terms what I find.  The gap between one side of their lower ribs and pelvis becomes smaller on one side, the spine becomes laterally curved, often with a secondary compensatory curve higher up to maintain a level head position.  Patients can present with or without lower back pain and some are unaware of their change in posture until family or colleagues point it out to them. 

I have a musculoskeletal bias as its the area I specialise in so I cannot comment on visual or vestibular factors.  There are multiple causes for this change in posture to occur but in my experience it happens most commonly when the quadratus lumborum muscle on one side becomes over worked, particularly if it is affected by myofascial trigger points due to chronic poor posture or regular overloading, or habitually greater weight bearing on one side of the body.  When over worked or fatigued the muscle can go into spasm or become functionally short and weak causing the side flexed posture that patients present with.  It seems possible for the same to occur during a long distance walk or 1000km plus Audax. 

Duncan.

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #44 on: 14 July, 2021, 09:42:40 pm »
I am strongly right-eyed.  I tend to lean to the right when I am tired, and it helps if I have something to my right that helps me to keep a straight line.  Ironically, I found PBP easier, because of riding on the right hand side of the road, the verge is a good guide.  In the UK, I keep a better line on roads with middle lane markings.  Getting older, I wonder if the reason this might be more pronounced is because I am more impacted by lack of sleep than I was 15 years ago.

On Mille Miglia in 2010, we discovered that there was an additional sleep control 120km from the finish at the Fausto Coppi museum, so we grabbed a few hours sleep there.  The next morning we passed several groups of riders who had ridden through the last night.  The roads in the Po Valley were mostly pan flat and dead straight.  On one such road there was a group of six riders who all managed to look as if they were heading in different directions. 

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #45 on: 15 July, 2021, 05:13:31 pm »
One of the bike-fitting videos I watched on YouTube suggested that a slightly too high saddle can cause a pelvic rock, that over an exercise period gets worse and worse.  One fix is that a rider subconsciously shifts to one side of the saddle towards the side rocking more to dampen it.

Can't for the life of me find the video though.

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #46 on: 17 July, 2021, 09:23:38 pm »
SNIP
I have a musculoskeletal bias as its the area I specialise in so I cannot comment on visual or vestibular factors.  There are multiple causes for this change in posture to occur but in my experience it happens most commonly when the quadratus lumborum muscle on one side becomes over worked, particularly if it is affected by myofascial trigger points due to chronic poor posture or regular overloading, or habitually greater weight bearing on one side of the body.  When over worked or fatigued the muscle can go into spasm or become functionally short and weak causing the side flexed posture that patients present with.  It seems possible for the same to occur during a long distance walk or 1000km plus Audax. 

Duncan.

Most people I’ve seen riding with the lean were made aware of their lean by others. Few were self-aware enough to discover it for themselves.

If a cyclist’s lean might be caused by fatigue of the quadratus lumborum, how could we confirm or rule that out by the side of the road? Also, what could cyclists do to reduce the likelihood beforehand and to reverse the effects during an event? If the answer is “It will continue to worsen regardless, if you keep going”, that is still useful information.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #47 on: 17 July, 2021, 09:45:25 pm »
I began to suffer The Lean in the last 50k of the 2019 Celtic Knot 1000.  I was sagging to the right, as I recall, but aware of what was happening.  What bothered me mostly was the thought that it might suddenly worsen.  I thought I was riding in a controlled manner, though leaning, but George was freaked out, so I might have been wrong.  For what it's worth, it felt more neurological than muscular.  Either way, I was fine the next morning.

There was no recurrence on PBP.

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #48 on: 18 July, 2021, 08:38:03 am »
It is interesting that you recovered quickly PeterM, while others have noticed symptoms lasting for quite a while after they stopped riding. I know at least one other that was completely restored after a few hours asleep.

At every PBP (and other long brevets), there are riders that crash out or withdraw because of the lean. If they could avoid getting the lean or mitigate its effects after onset, there is nothing else stopping them from finishing the brevet. With PBP only run every four years and anno domini catching up with ‘leaners’, many DNFers won’t get another chance to achieve their goal.

There is an unprecedented opportunity next year to study this problem and hopefully to find mitigation measures before the next PBP Randonneur in 2023 which might attract >6000 starters. There is a number of popular 1000+km brevets scheduled for next year and quite a pent-up demand to ride them. I suspect YACFers will see multiple riders with the lean and I can just about guarantee at least one leaner at PBP Audax (100-strong peloton that includes a lot of 60+yr folk).

Somebody could do a proper study on this or we could informally try potential solutions when we see afflicted riders and just see if anything works. Who should I/we speak with about potential lean avoidance (for those who’ve had the lean before) and lean mitigation measures?
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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #49 on: 19 July, 2021, 04:49:14 pm »
To assess whether the quadratus lumborum (QL) was involved you would need to palpate it, not easy without practice/experience.  With practice it is straightforward in either standing, seated or side-lying, I get many of my patients to self massage their QL's, and with time and patience they do a great job.  The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook by Clair Davies is a fantastic book, written to allow people to self treat muscle pain, its really good at showing you how to find and then work on your own muscles. There are a few muscles that could contribute to a side flexed posture, the QL is just the one I see most commonly involved in my clinic.  Self massage/palpation could be a way to self screening for muscle problems.

I think the most logical approach to use to help to avoid "the lean" would be to work on core strength.  I suspect more endurance riders concentrate on their legs, heart and lungs and neglect their core.  Ride Strong (essential conditioning for cyclists) by Jo McRae clearly lays out the argument for core strengthening for cyclists and has a step by step guide that is very comprehensive.  The book is hard to get hold of but worth getting a copy if you can.

Pilates would be a good choice for improving core strength and control.  I did teacher training with the APPI and like their approach, on their website you can do a free trial of their online classes and they should have a cycling specific pilates class.  I prefer to exercise on my own and as a bit of a cheapskate I like to learn from books but pilates classes would be very good.

If the issue were hamstring cramping during a long ride I would recommend stretching periodically before problems could come on, doing the same thing with side stretches would be worth trying at controls or if symptoms came on.  It's hard to comment further without having a look at someone suffering with "the lean".

Duncan.