Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: simonp on 16 September, 2015, 02:42:28 pm

Title: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 September, 2015, 02:42:28 pm
I decided that this year, after PBP, I would avoid the drop in fitness that I usually have. Firstly, I am doing Bristol Ariel's 'Learn to Row' course which is 6 weeks long two sessions a week. I'm really enjoying that.

However, I also decided I would embark on a base training programme immediately after PBP. The first 4 weeks have been quite tedious, to be honest. It's consisted of 4 endurance-zone workouts (with some form drills that do help relieve the tedium) per week, which started at 90 minutes in week 1, and peaked at 2h last week (week 3). This is week 4 and it's a recovery week so down to 4x1.5h endurance.

What I noticed in the first few weeks was the drop in HR for the same effort level - in fact the average has dropped by over 10bpm. I suspect this indicates PBP recovery rather than training.

Next week it changes up and I'm looking forwards to some variety. On Tuesday I should be doing an FTP test and that will adjust the following workouts to my current training level. Then on Thursday, there's a two hour tempo session, Saturday has a 2h15 Tempo session and Sunday a 2h15 endurance session. However as I'll be rowing on Sunday, that would be the one to drop.

Ok, so maybe I'm not looking forwards to next week after all.
 :facepalm:

I'm hoping that by starting already that by spring next year instead of having to rebuild from a low base I'll be building on top of what I've gained this year. We'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 16 September, 2015, 04:32:49 pm
I've decided to enjoy a Transition Phase before starting base training again.

Mostly this has involved:

1. Nursing post-PBP aches and pains.
2. Abandoning an audax due to (1).
3. Getting a cold.
4. Putting on weight.
5. Eating poorly, which has failed to help (1) and (3), and more than succeeded in helping (4).

 :thumbsup:

The rowing machine is making come-hither faces, but I'm looking the other way and playing hard to get.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 September, 2015, 01:49:21 pm
I hope your lurgy clears up soon. And the knee.

Squats last night. My legs are telling me all about it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 17 September, 2015, 03:23:49 pm
I hope your lurgy clears up soon. And the knee.

Thanks :).

I'm hoping this coming weekend will kick me into life.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 September, 2015, 08:06:42 pm
Right, the first 4 weeks are done. I skipped Thursday (sore from squats) and Saturday. But I did ride for 3 hours today, which compensates.

Fitness test coming up on Tuesday.  :sick:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 21 September, 2015, 01:35:42 pm
I'm not convinced that anyone coming in from an audax background really needs or benefits from the base period of a conventional structured plan as defined by a coach like Friel.

My base work is 10hrs/week of commuting but I don't use a heart rate monitor or a power meter.   It's just steady mileage.   In 4 weeks time I will start a programme of 3 turbo sessions a week (1 tempo, 1 set of pure threshold work and one of tempo/threshold combined), totalling circa 4hrs, and a 3-4hr tempo ride at a weekend.   All the turbo sessions will be in position on the TT bike with a TV in front of me to keep the head up.

The average tester seems to do about 6-8hrs a week of training so can often be lacking in what we term endurance.   Of all the things I've worked on in the last 2 years, endurance has taken a back seat.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 21 September, 2015, 06:08:34 pm
Interesting stuff. I read a paper the other day that reviewed the training regimes of elite athletes across a range of endurance sports, and looked at changes to the program of elite and sub elite athletes. Some interesting extracts:

- easy endurance or base work comprised around 80% of their training time in all sports
- the balance consisted of a mix of tempo/threshhold work and intervals (not all out, but event dependent)
- increasing the proportion of high intensity work led to reduced improvement over the testing periods (18 weeks to across a season) and to burn out before season end
- it takes time/years to progressively  build the base to able to train at the very high volumes used by elite athletes
- the nature and frequency of high intensity work changes between off season and when peaking for racing
- elite cyclists have very high training volumes up to 30 hour per week. Runners and others peak at about 15 hours per week, but often less. Cycling causes less muscle trauma and inflammation than running, but there is probably also a tradition and event specific requirement at work here
- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I suspect my running performances when young could have been improved if I'd taken it a bit easier and developed over a few years more!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 September, 2015, 10:13:03 pm
I did a lot of higher intensity training in the lead-up to PBP and though my FTP further improved over what I’d already done during the season, my fat burning was not as good as it had been after 6 weekends in a row of Audax riding. For people who have limited time to train, i.e. the likes of us, the balance may need to swing towards higher intensity workouts, but I suspect there’s a penalty.

I’ll be doing an FTP test tomorrow, will be interesting to see how it’s changed since before PBP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 22 September, 2015, 09:16:04 am
A rough idea of how well a cyclist is progressing is the time taken between two marker points ten miles apart at each end of a known course.
Most clubs have what’s called ‘Time trials’ on a weekly basis.

Combine these with a daily commute and a weekend hundred miler and you’ve got a half decent ‘Base training’ regime.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 September, 2015, 12:54:28 am
Didn’t do the fitness test last night as was a bit tired.

Did it tonight and realised I shouldn’t have had such a large dinner or waited a bit longer.  :sick: Managed not to actually vomit though.

My FTP estimate from that is slightly lower than pre-PBP - this is not surprising since my training has all been base endurance and no high intensity. Now onto the next phase of the training programme…

Oh and my max HR is at least 191. Which means I’m 29, right?

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2371955-8-Minute-Test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Jakob on 24 September, 2015, 08:05:33 am

- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I think this is more because it offers best value for time spent!. HIIT can be highly effective, even when training for endurance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 24 September, 2015, 09:31:38 am
At some point on most Audax rides, the road inclines upwards, and is called a “hill”. This is where HIIT bears fruit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 24 September, 2015, 10:43:26 pm

- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I think this is more because it offers best value for time spent!. HIIT can be highly effective, even when training for endurance.

I'm not sure that's the whole case actually, but there is a difference in that it probably offers faster gains in the short term, but lower performance over a 2 or 3 year plan. Also, the lower volume of most recreational athletes may mean that a bias to more intense work is useful. Not found the research on that yet.

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 September, 2015, 12:09:38 am
It's the consistent progression thing that I'm aiming for hence going back into training straight after PBP. My FTP/kg is around 250-260W. At the start of the year it was around 220W. I'm going to aim to be at 250W in January and see if I can get to 275W by next summer in time for whatever the big event is.

From what I've seen HIIT isn't a miracle cure so I'll stick to the traditional base programme for now. I'm also doing strength training and this should improve my core strength.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 25 September, 2015, 05:37:49 pm
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j433/Lighthorse2/Sirchris.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Lighthorse2/media/Sirchris.jpg.html)

The question to which I never received an answer to was,,, "Why did Chris Hoy insist on performing 'one rep to failure' sets?"

I'll answer. For maximum muscle growth.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 September, 2015, 06:49:00 pm
I target the 4..6 or 5..7 rep ranges for the major muscle group lifts. I'm not sure it's ideal for endurance cycling to do such low rep ranges though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Jakob on 28 September, 2015, 07:27:44 am

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)

Nope. The Tabata protocol was developed specifically with pro athletes in mind.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tabata.htm

Quote
In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 28 September, 2015, 12:21:28 pm
Ride round a cycle track. Ride easy for 1 1/2 laps and balls out for half a lap until 50 sprints are done.
Ah, takes me back.
If you’ve ever ridden a ‘Devil takes the hindmost’, you’ll know what I mean.

When was Tabata? 1996. He was a bit late to the game.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 29 September, 2015, 12:34:26 am

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)

Nope. The Tabata protocol was developed specifically with pro athletes in mind.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tabata.htm

Quote
In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.


No well trained or elite athlete is going to find an additional 14% aerobic capacity through any change in training. The results of the study comparing the two, very simplistic, protocols and getting a 9.5% improvement from simple 70% vo2 max running for 6 weeks demonstrates/confirms that the individuals included were not well trained elites.

The other key to achieving high levels of performance (apart from genetic inheritance) is time - athletes are developed over years not over 6 weeks. The issue in the most recent studies that have considered increasing the proportion of high intensity training is that athletes do not achieve the same ultimate performance and burn out after strong early season performances.

Intervals have a foundational place in training, but they leverage off the steady base work and don't replace it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 29 September, 2015, 12:38:18 am
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j433/Lighthorse2/Sirchris.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Lighthorse2/media/Sirchris.jpg.html)

The question to which I never received an answer to was,,, "Why did Chris Hoy insist on performing 'one rep to failure' sets?"

I'll answer. For maximum muscle growth.

Or just to show off?

Australian study has just confirmed that muscle quality in body builders is lower than that in athletes or even untrained men. Training for volume rather than efficiency. Athletes, generally, need to train for maximum strength and speed/responsiveness within the maximum weight they can afford to carry - therefore smaller efficient muscles are good (well illustrated by Usain the Bolt)

(http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/08/14/1226450/209066-usain-bolt.jpg)(reddit)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Jakob on 29 September, 2015, 09:18:43 am
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 29 September, 2015, 09:36:42 am
What’s “Base training” anyway?

Is that some new term for ‘Fit for active service’?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 29 September, 2015, 09:40:40 am
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.

Thirty years ago, my trainer said to me "If you don't try the weight, you'll never lift the weight."

I replied "Do or do not. There is no 'try'."   ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 29 September, 2015, 09:55:35 pm
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.

I was being slightly facetious with Chris Hoy comment, but the point about muscle quality is serious. Maximal lifts are used from time to time by a lot of power athletes and,presumably, are understood to contribute to adaptation in a positive manner.

The football study is so flawed, or at least focused on a different group, as to have no relevance to the topic of training to achieve a high level in endurance sport. Too short, untrained individuals (age) etc. It's like asking if 5 or 6 weeks sharpening at the end of a winter of Base training has a positive impact - of course it does. However, doing exclusively the HIIT work all winter probably will leave you slower and possibly broken down.

Of course I could be wrong, but my experience is that too much quality gets quick results and then leads to colds, overtraining and underperformance. Been there and got the t shirt.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 30 September, 2015, 09:04:23 am
And there’s me thinking ‘Winter base training’ was riding to a café fifty miles away on Sunday morning, and riding home on Sunday afternoon.  ;)

“5 or 6 weeks sharpening at the end of a winter”. I thought these were ‘Reliability trials’.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bikenrrd on 30 September, 2015, 12:03:47 pm

Of course I could be wrong, but my experience is that too much quality gets quick results and then leads to colds, overtraining and underperformance. Been there and got the t shirt.

Cheers

Mike

What would you recommend over winter, in terms of turbo sessions?  I'll be commuting to work (~10km a day, 4 days a week) and doing a 3 to 4 hour ride at low tempo / high endurance at the weekends.  I had planned on doing a sweet spot session (high tempo / low threshold) for an hour plus 2x20 at mid to high threshold and maybe some 20/40 sprint sessions.  Should I dial it back?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 October, 2015, 09:35:40 am

Of course I could be wrong, but my experience is that too much quality gets quick results and then leads to colds, overtraining and underperformance. Been there and got the t shirt.

Cheers

Mike

What would you recommend over winter, in terms of turbo sessions?  I'll be commuting to work (~10km a day, 4 days a week) and doing a 3 to 4 hour ride at low tempo / high endurance at the weekends.  I had planned on doing a sweet spot session (high tempo / low threshold) for an hour plus 2x20 at mid to high threshold and maybe some 20/40 sprint sessions.  Should I dial it back?

What are you training for ?

I'm targeting longer distance TTs and do something similar, but my commute is longer (2 * 13 miles).   I'll be doing 2 sweet spot sessions and a 2*20 at just over threshold session a week.   Personally, I wouldn't bother with the sprint sessions or any weights work.

Volume for the Winter will be 10hrs of commuting, 3-4hrs per week of turbo work and a 3-4hr low tempo ride on a Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bikenrrd on 01 October, 2015, 11:23:43 am

What are you training for ?


10 mile TTs starting in April, and generally just riding faster.  I would like to crack 30 km/h for 3 hours pace, rather than the 25 to 27 km/h I can do at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 October, 2015, 11:32:43 am

What are you training for ?


10 mile TTs starting in April, and generally just riding faster.  I would like to crack 30 km/h for 3 hours pace, rather than the 25 to 27 km/h I can do at the moment.

Not really an area I know as much about, but TT riders who focus on 10s and 25s tend do a lot of VO2 max work to 'pull threshold from above'.   Sprint session is probably OK and I've seen sessions like 30 * 30 (30s sec sprint:30sec rest for 30 reps) or 4/5 * 5mins @ VO2 max.   I probably couldn't get through a session like that but I do like a weekly 2*20 threshold session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 October, 2015, 11:40:37 am
I was doing a variety of stuff before PBP and I did do some VO2max sessions. They're quite tough, but productive. I think you shouldn't be doing more than 1-2 sessions a week at that intensity, though.

Circuit training on Monday has really disrupted my training, I've not done any bike training since last Thursday now; I've been sore for days.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 October, 2015, 12:33:29 pm
Did a 200k for fun on Sunday.   Have spent the last couple of weeks servicing the TT bike and getting it set up on the turbo.   I did start to do core work again a few weeks ago.

I have just bought a GPS and have been monitoring how hard I work on my commute.   Seems that answer is not really hard enough.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 01 October, 2015, 12:40:36 pm
It doesn't matter how hard you work on your commute, surely- it's not part of the programme.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 October, 2015, 12:59:34 pm
It doesn't matter how hard you work on your commute, surely- it's not part of the programme.

I had always had it down as zone 2 work, but it transpires I'm not even in zone 2 very much.   It's never been included as a proper training session, but I'm thinking of just pushing a little harder each way.    Of course on the days where I do 2hours tempo on the turbo and then ride in it'll be at a lower intensity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 October, 2015, 01:21:08 pm
Outdoor rides tend to be less productive per hour than indoor rides but a 13 mile each way commute done at reasonable intensity still seems like significant volume.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 October, 2015, 02:32:05 pm
I made significant gains this year so am trying to do something similar this Winter but upping the volume and intensity, although there's a longer ramp as I need to peak later in 2016.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 01 October, 2015, 02:50:21 pm
Commuting becomes a bit of Fartlek.

Trying to keep up with the traffic between junctions.

DO NOT, on a commute, try to get home in less time This leads to risk-taking and maybe hospitalisation or worse.


Oh, and question.
Is HIIT 'lactic acid' or 'Phosphocreatine'?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 01 October, 2015, 03:00:07 pm
I figure that year-round riding is sufficient for me to enjoy 200/300s and to grit my teeth round 600+ brevets. More focused riding in Spring and Summer allows me to enjoy 1000/1200s, rather than just finish them.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 October, 2015, 03:10:17 pm
I was told on the TT forum that HIIT was VO2max and above.   Threshold work doesn't qualify.
   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 01 October, 2015, 04:25:35 pm
I wrote a long reply earlier, but it seems to have disappeared. Will have another go later....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 October, 2015, 04:26:29 pm
My favourite VO2max workout that I've done is this one:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/1818-solomons

Last time I did it:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2250154-Solomons

HIIT is often much shorter intervals than this, e.g. 30s or 60s. These are 3 and 2 minute intervals at 115% FTP and 130% FTP respectively. I found I could complete this one without reducing the target intensity.

Another, which is 12x3 minutes at 120% FTP, I could not complete at the full intensity.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 02 October, 2015, 08:13:06 am
Yup. A 10s sprint at max speed on level ground.

Be sure though, you are fully warmed up for at least an hour at ‘evens’.

PS. The 10s sprint might be 300% FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 02 October, 2015, 08:24:57 am
Be sure though, you are fully warmed up for at least an hour at ‘evens’.

What if you can't ride an hour at 'evens' (not tried yet, even if I can, it wouldn't be a warmup!)  :facepalm:

<gets coat>
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 02 October, 2015, 08:44:01 am
Now I've had a closer look at the data, my commute is more Zone 2 than I thought.   I may be subconsciously trying a little harder, but I reckon of the hour I each way I'm in zone 2 about 75% of the time.   I think this is a suitable base to work from and to build more intense sessions around it.   Won't be doing anything over Zone 4 though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 07 October, 2015, 02:30:49 pm
I target the 4..6 or 5..7 rep ranges for the major muscle group lifts. I'm not sure it's ideal for endurance cycling to do such low rep ranges though.

When I was training with weights I tended to do 15x Supersets so 15 Squats, 15 Deadlifts repeat 3 times.  The weights were moderate compared with my maximum lift, but the focus was strength-endurance.  I've always found it difficult to directly correlate training to performance on the road, but my ability to put a steady power down up hill for a long period of time developed significantly when I had this sort of superset as part of my training regime.  I haven't done this sort of work for 3 or 4 years now and feel that my uphill time trialling ability is waning.  Though that might just be age combined with lack of desire to suffer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 October, 2015, 02:39:29 pm
When I started doing squats, I happened to be riding up Mudgeley Hill in Wedmore a fair bit.

Beforehand, my PR on the strava segment for the short, steep start of the climb was 57s. After, I improved to 48s without really trying. Having noticed the improvement, next time I tried harder, but messed up because I'd not realised where the segment end was (it was longer than I'd thought). I did 49s. Then 36s. Then 37s, and finally 34s.

48s would have been around 550th out of 1500-odd.

34s is 18th.

Who knows whether the squats helped, but my feeling is they've improved my ability for these short bursts of power to get up short, sharp climbs on fixed. They've also made me heavier (as has the other weight training) so it may have reduced my ability on longer climbs.


EDIT: should be up to 17th - KOM was clearly in a car.  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 October, 2015, 10:36:43 am
I do feel I lose out uphill and into a headwind in TTs as I don't seem to have the power (torque ?) at low cadence.   I did reps of 4minute intervals with the resistance cranked on the turbo up last Winter, but they became my most hated session, so haven't planned any for this Winter.   I don't have weights or access to a gym.

I have put a bigger gear on the bike before putting it back on the turbo this Winter so I may be able to build lower rev power more in a more subtle way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 08 October, 2015, 10:50:58 am
I'm finding the hardest part of The Plan is the spinning.
Big-Ass gears at <60RPM a piece of proverbial (HRMax-ing) piss- but then I'm happier on 73" than 69" and can leg press much more than my not-insignificant bodyweight. Maintaining 90+RPM and keeping HR 80 or 85% just isn't happening. I reckon it's the lardy legs- you try strapping a 2kg weight on each thigh and see how long you can spin them at 100RPM, Mr Coach.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 October, 2015, 11:10:36 am
I had a deload week last week and should be doing Tempo intervals tonight. But the squats on Tuesday have made my quads very sore today, so I dunno.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 08 October, 2015, 12:50:57 pm
You guys aren't helping me get started, y'know...  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 08 October, 2015, 12:53:30 pm
I do feel I lose out uphill and into a headwind in TTs as I don't seem to have the power (torque ?) at low cadence.   I did reps of 4minute intervals with the resistance cranked on the turbo up last Winter, but they became my most hated session, so haven't planned any for this Winter.   I don't have weights or access to a gym.

I have put a bigger gear on the bike before putting it back on the turbo this Winter so I may be able to build lower rev power more in a more subtle way.

Tip.

Lift your weight off the saddle but don't put any daylight between shorts and saddle. Start the foot movement at eight o'clock and pull the pedal round to five o'clock ( as seen from the RHS of bike ).
Consiously think about this movement, imagining you are rolling the foot around the B/B.
In trying to lift backside pressure off the saddle, an extra downward push will be be the result.

Use the hamstring and leg flexors. The glutes, quads and calfs will do their thing naturally.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 08 October, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
I'm finding the hardest part of The Plan is the spinning.
Big-Ass gears at <60RPM a piece of proverbial (HRMax-ing) piss- but then I'm happier on 73" than 69" and can leg press much more than my not-insignificant bodyweight. Maintaining 90+RPM and keeping HR 80 or 85% just isn't happening. I reckon it's the lardy legs- you try strapping a 2kg weight on each thigh and see how long you can spin them at 100RPM, Mr Coach.

Anything that adds resistance to the cycling action in training is a good thing.
Such as:-
Ankle weights.
Chainmail trousers.
Wet suit dungerees.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 October, 2015, 01:03:33 pm
You guys aren't helping me get started, y'know...  :facepalm:

2 weeks before I start properly again, including a week of holiday.   TT bike is now on the turbo again and I have bought some wireless headphones that should make the process a bit more bearable.    Not entirely looking forward to 5am sessions in a cold garage again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bikenrrd on 08 October, 2015, 01:10:20 pm
My excuse is that my daughter is teething and I'm tired.  Really tired.  Maybe next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 October, 2015, 05:25:35 pm
You guys aren't helping me get started, y'know...  :facepalm:

You know how people sometimes describe a "pleasant ache" after exercise?

I don't have that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 October, 2015, 10:08:11 pm
I had a deload week last week and should be doing Tempo intervals tonight. But the squats on Tuesday have made my quads very sore today, so I dunno.

Two hour tempo session didn’t appeal. So I had a look at shorter workouts at that sort of intensity, and came across this one, which I’ve been meaning to give a go:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2415119-Bays

Those sprints were around 450-460W for 20s. What fun we had. Feel better for it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 09 October, 2015, 10:04:19 am
I'm finding the hardest part of The Plan is the spinning.
Big-Ass gears at <60RPM a piece of proverbial (HRMax-ing) piss- but then I'm happier on 73" than 69" and can leg press much more than my not-insignificant bodyweight. Maintaining 90+RPM and keeping HR 80 or 85% just isn't happening. I reckon it's the lardy legs- you try strapping a 2kg weight on each thigh and see how long you can spin them at 100RPM, Mr Coach.

Anything that adds resistance to the cycling action in training is a good thing.
Such as:-
Ankle weights.
Chainmail trousers.
Wet suit dungerees.

Panniers full of bricks?  Or just my ancient laptop and a couple of notebooks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 31 October, 2015, 11:14:48 pm
I did 2.5h tempo intervals this evening. Low carb day in the lead up and only drank water. Heart rate started climbing from about half way. Was tough.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 03 November, 2015, 02:47:53 pm
I did 2.5h tempo intervals this evening. Low carb day in the lead up and only drank water. Heart rate started climbing from about half way. Was tough.

Coventry to Birmingham and back.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 November, 2015, 10:58:17 am
Tried an FTP test yesterday.

Disastrous, I was well off where I was previously. Didn't complete it.

I put it down to working too long hours and not enough sleep. I'd noticed from the start my HR was 10bpm higher during the warm-up as it was at similar effort on Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 November, 2015, 10:21:49 pm
Tried FTP test again today. It went a lot better than last week. I did the 2x8 minute test. Averaged 282W in each test effort which gives an FTP estimate of 253W. 1W down on last test but given I've been working on base training and rowing that's not too bad.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 18 November, 2015, 07:20:27 am
Now try the full hour.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 19 November, 2015, 10:33:57 am
First 4 weeks of project 2016 have been variable.   I'm either just about to start getting this right or I need to take a step back and re-start.   Overall I think I've been trying a bit hard and had maybe lost more fitness than expected between August and the end of October.

Going on a mini-tour for a couple of days to get my head back together.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 January, 2016, 09:35:41 pm
I've nearly finished the current 6-week block. Have missed a few work-outs. Next week is meant to be an easy week to end the block and then FTP test to reassess fitness, and then start another 6-week base block.

If I've only maintained the FTP I had at the last test, that will still be a reasonable result, as it's almost at the peak I had before PBP, and possibly as much as 50W higher than this time last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 15 January, 2016, 11:30:39 pm
is there a way to gauge the intensity at which to start ftp test? i get higher output readings on the rollers (with added resistance) than on the road, so if i have ftp=245w on the road should i ride at 280w, 290w? i don't want to keep doing it many times..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 January, 2016, 12:57:20 am
Probably, it's better to start a little too easy rather than a little too hard. Work up to what you think you can sustain over the first minute or so.

Beyond that TrainerRoad recommends adjusting your pace every 5 minutes in the 20 minute test based on how it feels, I.e. split the effort into 1/4. Many people will be too conservative and have a surge in the last few minutes. This tends to result in an under estimate of true fitness.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 16 January, 2016, 08:01:54 pm
is there a way to gauge the intensity at which to start ftp test? i get higher output readings on the rollers (with added resistance) than on the road, so if i have ftp=245w on the road should i ride at 280w, 290w? i don't want to keep doing it many times..

I'd recommend doing the 3 minute test on a Wattbike and guage your FTP from there, the 3 minute test will give you a good ball park figure and it does not require any pacing - just full gas for three minutes which of course hurts - a lot. Then go back the next day and do the FTP test for real.

Pay for a day pass at your local Virgin gym (or other that has a wattbike) a lot easier to pace on a wattbike then out on the road and in doing so will give you a far more relative figure to train from. The power curve for a FTP test should be near enough straight with a 5 minute flourish at the end where you empty the tank. I cannot see this being done better on the road than in a gym TBH. And in fact I've moved all my training indoors on the Wattbike - no junk miles at all.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 January, 2016, 12:49:58 pm
thanks LMT and simonp - my local gym has got three wattbikes; i agree it is the most precise and standardised way to measure power output. i'll do some training on the rollers first and will do the 3min and ftp test on a wattbike early next month.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 17 January, 2016, 01:43:20 pm
If you take the 3 minute figure and plug it in here:-

http://wattbike.com/uk/heart-rate-and-power-training-zones

This will give you your training zones which includes Z4, ime this certainly feels right when training.

If you have a USB stick take this with you and plug it into the back of the machine, that way you can save your data for analysis later on. Also you can create a user profile which has your numbers already saved so it's easier to train from on the screen telling you what zone you are in rather then you having to remember.

FWIW mine was 446w and was by a fair chalk the most pain I've ever felt on a bike. And this will be re-tested at the end of the month after this current four week block of training comes to an end - can't wait. :facepalm: ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 18 January, 2016, 06:58:08 am
is there a way to gauge the intensity at which to start ftp test? i get higher output readings on the rollers (with added resistance) than on the road, so if i have ftp=245w on the road should i ride at 280w, 290w? i don't want to keep doing it many times..

Start off however you wish. If you fade and collapse, look at the recording and start the next test lower. If you still fade and collapse, start the next test a little lower. Keep doing this until you can sustain the starting output for the full 20 minute or 60 minute test.
When you can get through the whole test at a reasonably constant output, start the next test 1% higher.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 February, 2016, 08:42:17 pm
2x8 minute test just now; 259W estimated.

That's the highest self tested FTP I've recorded, and is ~40W increase on a year ago. The sweet spot base training program does seem to be working, despite some disruptions.

I don't think I really had any more to give - I had my eyes shut for the final 30s of the second 8 minute interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 04 February, 2016, 01:36:24 pm
2x8 minute test just now; 259W estimated.

That's the highest self tested FTP I've recorded, and is ~40W increase on a year ago. The sweet spot base training program does seem to be working, despite some disruptions.

I don't think I really had any more to give - I had my eyes shut for the final 30s of the second 8 minute interval.

No no no... Keep your eyes on the finish line. You might hit the timekeeper.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 February, 2016, 02:01:37 pm
Or the inside of the garage door.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 February, 2016, 12:38:41 pm
On this subject - how do people try push themselves to the end of an interval.    I've started counting down with my eyes shut and checking against the stopwatch every now and again.   Towards the end my breathing seems to be every second-ish so it works quite well.    I don't do any really short high-intensity efforts but I have some 2*20mins and 5min under/over which require a bit of concentration.

Also - has anyone else developed a dread of an upcoming session ?   I have got the point where an early morning session means an entire night barely sleeping.   I have moved my Monday and Wednesday sessions to evening, but I still spend way too much time thinking about the upcoming discomfort.    I find this a bit odd as I have pretty much never flaked or abandoned a session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 05 February, 2016, 12:53:07 pm
On this subject - how do people try push themselves to the end of an interval.    I've started counting down with my eyes shut and checking against the stopwatch every now and again.   Towards the end my breathing seems to be every second-ish so it works quite well.    I don't do any really short high-intensity efforts but I have some 2*20mins and 5min under/over which require a bit of concentration.

Also - has anyone else developed a dread of an upcoming session ?   I have got the point where an early morning session means an entire night barely sleeping.   I have moved my Monday and Wednesday sessions to evening, but I still spend way too much time thinking about the upcoming discomfort.    I find this a bit odd as I have pretty much never flaked or abandoned a session.

By knowing that the pain will end.

And no I can't say that I do dread going on the Wattbike for a sess. Are you recovering fully before training?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 February, 2016, 12:55:59 pm
36-48hrs between hard sessions.   Only riding in between is commuting which I do pretty gently.    My legs are usually fresh in time for the next session.

I'm convinced it's a mental thing - similar to staying awake all night before a long ride or a race.   You know you need to sleep which makes it worse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 February, 2016, 12:02:10 am
I find the high intensity sessions easiest to motivate for. The endurance sessions are harder because they're boring.

Maybe you could try mixing it up a bit. Also 2x20 if at threshold doesn't seem like a base phase session and maybe less intensity and more variety would help?

Tonight for me was 4x8 minute sweet spot intervals with each one having 4 5-second sprints at up to 180% FTP. My legs felt that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 February, 2016, 08:49:12 pm
Do sweet spot base, they said. It'll be fun, they said.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3153879-keeler-needle
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 10 February, 2016, 10:31:07 am
I find buying a cheapo second-hander out of the local paper and going out for a couple of hours riding is more interesting and has more variety than any turbo trainer.

If its a heavy mule, the training will have 'added value'.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on 10 February, 2016, 02:48:09 pm
I find buying a cheapo second-hander out of the local paper and going out for a couple of hours riding is more interesting and has more variety than any turbo trainer.

If its a heavy mule, the training will have 'added value'.

In principle that sounds like a good idea but, in practice, well designed (and followed) interval training on a turbo, can deliver better results more quickly*

*If results are what you are after of course.

I don't think anyone can argue that it's more pleasant to be out on country lanes than stuck on a Turbo Trainer watching the second hand tick ever so slowly round during a hard sprint interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 February, 2016, 03:00:53 pm
It'd be very hard to reproduce that workout outdoors.

Also, I'm not sure riding in the dark and wet of a January evening for 90 minutes is more pleasant than watching an episode of Dexter while spinning at a constant 90rpm and letting the software do all the thinking (as in the case of that workout - constant cadence, varying force).

Although in this case I listened to music as the workout requires quite a lot of focus. It's also a lot more time-efficient: an hour on the trainer is probably worth 90 minutes outdoors.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: giropaul on 11 February, 2016, 08:44:24 am
For me; doing focussed, structured Wattbike sessions of 1 to 2 hours, means that my road rides at this time of year are when it is decent weather, and are relaxed and enjoyable.
I am fortunate that my local leisure centre has well led, structured Wattbike sessions. Doing 2 hours in a group, with a bit of banter in the recovery bits, is much easier than doing the same on your own.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 11 February, 2016, 09:09:31 am
It'd be very hard to reproduce that workout outdoors.

Also, I'm not sure riding in the dark and wet of a January evening for 90 minutes is more pleasant than watching an episode of Dexter while spinning at a constant 90rpm and letting the software do all the thinking (as in the case of that workout - constant cadence, varying force).

Although in this case I listened to music as the workout requires quite a lot of focus. It's also a lot more time-efficient: an hour on the trainer is probably worth 90 minutes outdoors.

 :thumbsup:

I bought the entire collection of Carry on movies, Wacky races, Captain Scarlet and Tom & Jerry.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 11 February, 2016, 10:02:34 am
Adding turbo work to my programme for the last 2 Winters has made a massive difference.   I live in the suburbs of Sarf London so doing an uninterrupted road workout is pretty difficult.    Once it warms up a little I drive to a TT circuit and do a few hours of tempo work on there - no traffic lights and no right hand turns.

Putting a TV in the garage with a DVD player has made a difference to the longer and duller sessions.   That said I'm going to redesign my programme for the next 10 weeks as something isn't working right for me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TigaSefi on 11 February, 2016, 10:32:29 am
I find 30 mins of wattbiking and watching a tv show such as X Files new season or Supergirl a really good way of passing the time without having to worry about the slow second hand going by. I also know if I watch Big Bang Theory on E4, the advert is exactly 4 minutes and 30 seconds! I tend to Wattbike twice a week at 30 mins each at HIIT.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 February, 2016, 11:29:13 am
After all the hand-wringing of the last 10 days I commenced last nights session with a plan to bail part way through.   In the end it wasn't that bad and I was still pushing at the end.   1hr30m total with 70mins of 5min over:under.   Watched the Flying Scotsman again partly for the inspiration, but also it's the right length.

I still have the feeling that I'm doing too much volume and will drop the duration and increase the intensity for the next 10 weeks and when I start racing again in April.    Also looking forward to 2 days touring next weekend as the family are away.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 12 February, 2016, 11:48:42 am
I've been completely crap and off-program since, well, I've had my head full of moving house.

It'll be better once we've moved. After all, starting a new job in a completely new area and shacking up with your bloke are totally stress-free aren't they?

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 February, 2016, 03:23:08 pm
Since I'm racing in an 8 next weekend my mind has been focused on getting fit.

Last night I did an hour endurance. Today before breakfast 90 minutes over/under intervals. Tough one that. Tomorrow I should do another 2h+ easy ride. Probably will go out to play rather than sit in the garage.

I'll probably try to taper a bit this week, and drop the volume, and resume the programme after the race is out the way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 13 February, 2016, 09:41:22 pm
I had planned for two turbo interval sessions per week to complement my three 57 mile commutes but after breaking my hand fairly soon after returning from China, I have been doing 5 sessions per week, all using the TrainerRoad software which is brilliant.

The five sessions now are normally 1x90' mostly at sweetspot, one 4x8' Seiler intervals, two lots of micro-intervals (Billat) and  an other. In theory, with 5-6 hours focused speed work I should get faster than than last year which was based purely on distance. I'll need to add in some long rides once the cast comes off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 15 February, 2016, 10:37:02 am
Didn't touch a bike this weekend.   Didn't realise how tired I was until I stopped.

I have revised the next 10 weeks and reduced the duration of the harder sessions.    Going touring for 2 days this weekend as the family are going away without me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 February, 2016, 10:59:41 pm
I've done 7 days in a row now. Finished the run with a workout with 27x50s at 135% FTP with 50s recoveries. Easier than I expected, though plenty of burn did happen.

A couple of days off while I'm away then a little more training before the rowing race on Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 17 February, 2016, 06:47:28 am
I've done 7 days in a row now. Finished the run with a workout with 27x50s at 135% FTP with 50s recoveries. Easier than I expected, though plenty of burn did happen.

A couple of days off while I'm away then a little more training before the rowing race on Sunday.

EASY!

Then you'll be needing to reassess your FTP.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 February, 2016, 09:21:05 am
Or (more likely, I think) I need to work more on muscle endurance to raise my FTP as a % of my VO2max.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 February, 2016, 01:06:39 pm
I'm going to try an SS conversion for my Kickr which should mean I can use it with my fixed gear bikes. This will be useful for the TT bike in particular as I need to get used to riding in position.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 18 February, 2016, 09:40:03 pm
I'm going to try an SS conversion for my Kickr which should mean I can use it with my fixed gear bikes. This will be useful for the TT bike in particular as I need to get used to riding in position.

I bought the Tacx oversize track nuts that space the rear end out enough to fit my elite turbo.   I have had the TT bike on the turbo all Winter to train as much as possible in the race position.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 February, 2016, 01:21:46 pm
I'm going to try an SS conversion for my Kickr which should mean I can use it with my fixed gear bikes. This will be useful for the TT bike in particular as I need to get used to riding in position.

I bought the Tacx oversize track nuts that space the rear end out enough to fit my elite turbo.   I have had the TT bike on the turbo all Winter to train as much as possible in the race position.

My frames are both 130mm OLN so spacing isn't an issue, but gearing is. Using a single speed adapter kit for a normal Shimano freehub seems to be the cheapest and simplest option.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 February, 2016, 10:24:36 am
Surely there must be an easier way!

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3265671-haeckel

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 24 February, 2016, 10:31:52 pm
Surely there must be an easier way!

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3265671-haeckel

This is my hardest workout, 4x8' @105% FTP, really struggled with it yesterday and failed to hit power target in last two intervals but did manage to keep HR in the >90% VO2max zone.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3259596-ak-seiler
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 24 February, 2016, 11:37:29 pm
I didn't manage through to the end of Angels today https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3273064-sufferfest-angels

I'd like to think I could have got to the end but discretion was the better part of valour. That's what I tell myself, anyhow. Then I look back and see I've always crapped out on this one. Damn.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 February, 2016, 07:54:45 am
"You don't need to stop. You want to."
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 25 February, 2016, 11:08:41 am
Running mate of mine sent me a good article that said you should always complete the intended duration even if you back off a bit.   Knocking around on the TT forum I've seen comments about failing to hit required wattage numbers for the 3rd interval so sacked the whole session off.   I think this is one area where power meters cause some negative motivation.   if you can't finish your planned interval at 250w then why not throttle back to 230w but still do the same duration of session ?   It's still a good workout.

On Monday evening I embarked on my usual tempo session, but I had had a much harder weekend.   For the last 20 mins I reduced the resistance by one notch as I was really starting to struggle.   I still did the required duration of 2hrs, but wasn't working quite as hard for the last 20 mins.   My HR was still in the tempo zone so this was still a valid workout and I saw the end of the dvd I was watching.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 February, 2016, 11:23:55 am
If you read the in-workout instructions in the TrainerRoad workouts they advise either reducing the intensity setting a bit or back-pedalling for a few seconds to take a short breather.

With an electronic trainer it's easier to stay on target. I've only come up short twice so far, and I just had to knock down the intensity a little to complete the session.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 25 February, 2016, 11:36:50 am
Running mate of mine sent me a good article that said you should always complete the intended duration even if you back off a bit.   

That's the one big problem with the automatic control, you can't back off :(  That's balanced against the rapid and accurate changes in cadence and power that are possible. If you drop cadence, you end up grinding out the same power, best approach is to lock in the best pedalling you can and hold to the same cadence. In the last segment of Sufferfest Angels you have the pleasure of short 105 cadence bursts over 80/90 targets, maybe if I had ignored them I could have finished.

I would possibly have switched to resistance, but as I was a messy sweaty puddle by then I couldn't have operated the touchpad on the laptop anyhow.

ETA as simonp says you CAN back off but you have to be able to control the 'puter
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 February, 2016, 11:47:37 am
I've got quite a nice setup now since buying the Wahoo fitness desk. It's a standing desk intended to be used with a bike or trainer. There's a slot around the edge to put your phone or tablet into. So I have TrainerRoad on the iPhone and Netflix on the iPad. If needed I can reach either screen to change something. I have even taken screenshots of workouts while riding and posted them to Facebook, and replied to comments while still working. During the rest intervals natch.

The TrainerRoad plans seem to be well structured which means the workouts are tough but I can complete them.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 25 February, 2016, 11:59:44 am
I'm still using cadence on my fixed and try to keep the same resistance level.   I keep an eye on effort using RPE and HR.   Congratulations to anyone that can absorb that much data whilst training.   I'm a bit of a luddite.

Putting a TV back in the garage has helped the longer sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 February, 2016, 06:15:14 pm
I removed the 10 speed cassette from the kickr last night and fitted a single sprocket plus spacers for the 42mm chain line. Got the fixed Audax bike on there and it seems to work. I repeated last Saturday's over unders as I didn't fancy high force work. I already did a 90 minute session at the rowing club so it was harder than last weekend, but I survived. Fixed bike fits better.

Today I did a 2h15 endurance ride session. Due to the high calorie deficit yesterday I was hungry before starting so had peanut butter on toast as well as my usual couple of coffees. That wasn't enough and 90 minutes in I had a break and got some coffee, a banana and a gel. Having eaten again, I'm still down about 1500 calories for the day so will make sure I eat well tonight.

Tomorrow is a rest day and after 5h of mostly fairly demanding training, I need it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 01 March, 2016, 06:41:16 am
So what gear length was your fixed set-up?

IIRC, turbos and ergometers are for power work that can't be done on the open road safely. For burning calories, riding an old hack in the rain is best.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 March, 2016, 11:04:40 am
The gearing is 47/18 on the turbo set up. The typical gearing I use on an Audax is either 47/19 or 47/18.

I'm riding the Tewekesbury 200k this weekend, so will get some outdoor riding in then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 01 March, 2016, 12:17:54 pm
"70 inches" to us olduns.

My fixed is 60" ( 42 x 18 on 26" wheel ). In reality, the Conti 26 x 1.125 is 24.1" diameter, which gives a 56" gear.
As a coincidence, that's the height of my Sturnal notch, and the HighBike wheel size that would be prescribed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 March, 2016, 01:43:34 pm
Been thinking about what it would take to get my FTP/kg to 4.

At my current weight, I'd need to get my FTP up from the month-ago test of 259W to 310W. That seems like a big gap.

If I got my weight back down to 72kg, then I'd need to hit 288W FTP. In principle that looks a lot more likely, but how much will losing 5kg cost me?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 March, 2016, 02:15:44 pm
The gearing is 47/18 on the turbo set up. The typical gearing I use on an Audax is either 47/19 or 47/18.

I'm riding the Tewekesbury 200k this weekend, so will get some outdoor riding in then.

I've got 48*17 on the turbo.   This has resulted in a lot of work in the 80-85RPM range over the Winter using the second resistance setting.   The aim was to increase my power at lower revs as I struggled last year into the wind and up steady drags.   I also increase the gear on my heavy commuter to 84".

I think this has put a bit of strain on me as I have aches and pains in tendons that I previously haven't struggled with.    I did last night's 2hr session on resistance setting 1, which just uses the fluid and no magnetic resistance so had a higher cadence for a lower HR.    I'm going to play with this for the next few weeks and try to spin a bit more.

I entered my first TTs (in April) yesterday so that will be the first test of the year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 01 March, 2016, 06:57:56 pm
I just need to share!!  since my flu in january and changing to LCHF diet I have really noticed my lack of grunt.  Endurance is coming but sprinting and anything but tempo work has been out of the question.  Tonight though 10 minute warm up on the turbo then 30 single leg squats  20 x and 10x plus 20x and 10x sliding single leg squats per legwhilst wearing my 20kg weight vest.

feels so amazing to be getting back to where i was before all this.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 March, 2016, 07:12:29 pm
Sounds like some adaptation.

I'm riding 200k this weekend, Bristol Uni 10 the weekend after that, and the following weekend is The Dean. My FTP is as high as it was just before PBP - will be interesting to see how I get on.

About to go and do a vo2max workout.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 02 March, 2016, 10:30:45 am
Anyone used one of the sufferfest videos for inspiration?
I'm using music but still it's kinda boring doing my 3 x 10 mins intervals @ at.
Thinking one of the endurance or base vids playing on a tablet while on the gym bike may help as I can alter the resistance on manual to simulate the difference in effort.

Just wondered what the consensus is regarding them?
Thanks
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 02 March, 2016, 10:34:57 am
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 March, 2016, 11:29:15 am
About to go and do a vo2max workout.

Well that was tough.

Combination of fatigue, and the fact this is the highest intensity I've had to do this work-out at (because my FTP is higher). During the second last interval I thought there was no way I'd complete the final, so I dropped the intensity to 95% during the recovery. But I recovered ok, and decided not to be beaten, so put it back to 100%, and made it.

I put Saturday's MoTD on iPlayer for most of the workout, but had some music on for the final interval after that finished. Sat down for a few minutes after my shower, and when I got up, I nearly fell over.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 02 March, 2016, 12:27:05 pm
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance

Thanks for the reply Ham, might just dip a toe in. Agreed if Trainer Roads etc alters resistance in line with the vid to give a feeling of the workout/climbs, that would be great, not there though - yet.

Cheers
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 02 March, 2016, 12:38:16 pm
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance

Thanks for the reply Ham, might just dip a toe in. Agreed if Trainer Roads etc alters resistance in line with the vid to give a feeling of the workout/climbs, that would be great, not there though - yet.

Cheers

If you have a controllable trainer it is there - either via the app or Trainer Roads

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 02 March, 2016, 01:10:34 pm
There are a number of videos out there but IMO the sufferfest ones offer the best combination of music, humour and fun.  They should especially appeal to those of us who are following the Joe Friel advice about power training and hard intervals!

They started out as pure racing videos but 2 recent ones have been done with the Col collective and feature real countryside and are again IMO less aggressive and more audax style.

You can use the videos in 4 ways:

the video plays and you pedal harder or easier on a scale from 1-10, 1 I have never seen  and 10 is death in 30 seconds. Fairly hard to gauge and reproducibility is difficult.

The video plays and you monitor your heart rate on a garmin or similar.  problem is that Heart rate lags power and so you can get to the end of a 30 second sprint and your Heart rate barely reaches the limit and then peaks 5 seconds into the rest interval

Most turbos and a computer:  using either trainerroad or the sufferfest app and an ANT+ USB stick you record your heart rate, cadence and wheel rpm.  You have your turbo set at a single specified resistance which has been tested by trainerroad, etc.  The computer can then from cadence, rpm and resistance work out virtual power.  This changes almost instantaneously and allows very accurate intervals.  You change the difficulty of the workout by altering your gears.  So for example I knew on my old trainer that recovery intervals at level 2 was small ring and next to largest cog at a cadence of 85-90.  FTP was either little ring and 14 cog  at 90 or a bit smaller at 100 cadence.  A grind at 60rpm would need big ring and so on.  Initially there is some hunting around to get the right settings.  It is ideal if you can do the hard interval in big ring and recovery in little ring without changing the cassette position as it allows you to transition from recovery to interval very fast.

There are now 5-7 turbos which will talk to the app, either trainerroad or sufferfest.  The first was the Wahoo kickr, I think the second was the Tacx Neo and now there are several more.  With these the computer tells the turbo to produce 250W.  If you pedal at the cadence specified of 90rpm this will be relatively easy (I lie).  If however you have a mid interval fail and your cadence drops to 10 then instead of producing 250W/90 power per revolution you are left producing 250/10 power per revolution which can be soul destroying!  With this system you generally leave the bike in a single gear and the turbo changes the resistance for you. 

I think people vary. I love my new tacx Neo as it is easier to let the power drop with the older system but these turbos cost an arm and a leg.  They will measure cadence as well but I found the cadence side poor and added a cadence sensor as well.

I hope this helps
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 02 March, 2016, 03:23:22 pm
@Ham Sorry I meant I'm not quite ready for a trainer, but considering one for next winter.

@Chrisbainbridge, I quite like the idea of the col collective, just looking for something to break up the boredom on the gym bike. I'd definitely try to follow the workouts albeit I would have to work out the relative settings as I go along with the inevitable HR lag as you allude to. I interpret the sclae from 1-10 as loosely being my heart rate range with 7.5 my anearobic threshold (which keeps going up and making me try even harder to maintain), correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption. As I've stated to Ham I'm looking to maybe getting a trainer for next winter as I kinda like the idea of the trainer altering the resistance to the workout. A question about this is does the app take into account your individual ftp as I'm not yet up to providing 240W for more than a few seconds, currently doing 182W for each 10 min interval with spasma of 200+W but looking to break through the 200W barrier soon.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TigaSefi on 02 March, 2016, 03:37:26 pm
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 March, 2016, 03:52:11 pm
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TigaSefi on 02 March, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons

Not just me then. here's my results. http://hub.wattbike.com/sefi/session/78ae0b45198690946bade72b7f5ef135 Hopefully you can see that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 02 March, 2016, 03:57:20 pm
John, you tell the program your FTP at the beginning.  Then as you go on there is the opportunity to do a FTP test which is one of the least enjoyable things ever done on a bike!  if it has gone up the computer will then change the setting to make you suffer even more.  I think it was designed in one of Dante's deeper circles of Hell!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 02 March, 2016, 04:02:53 pm
John, you tell the program your FTP at the beginning.  Then as you go on there is the opportunity to do a FTP test which is one of the least enjoyable things ever done on a bike!  if it has gone up the computer will then change the setting to make you suffer even more.  I think it was designed in one of Dante's deeper circles of Hell!
   ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 March, 2016, 04:10:00 pm
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons

Not just me then. here's my results. http://hub.wattbike.com/sefi/session/78ae0b45198690946bade72b7f5ef135 Hopefully you can see that.

I was supposed to be doing 103W in my recoveries. Your power is creeping up to over 150W at the end of some of the earlier recoveries. I think you probably want to be taking it easier there. The shorter intervals have less recovery time, in those you'd not expect HR to drop as much.

I saw similar in this workout; HR only dropping as low as 157 in the final recovery; and only going as high as 170 during the efforts. Heart rate takes longer than that to respond to change in effort anyway so the intervals or recoveries are ending before HR stabilises.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 03 March, 2016, 06:43:06 am
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

Fitness.

As time goes on and you train harder, your pulmonary and cardiovascular system will develop to :-

1/ pump blood sooner, and
2/ recover quicker.

Its a matter of CO2 in the blood and how fast the P and CV systems can shift it out of the lungs.

Give it a few years.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 March, 2016, 12:53:24 am
Tonight I bailed before the end of the final interval. Harder than the same workout last week. I think a recovery week will happen next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 08 March, 2016, 01:11:01 pm
Tonight I bailed before the end of the final interval. Harder than the same workout last week. I think a recovery week will happen next week.

Bet you didn't go to the toilet before your session  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 March, 2016, 09:39:16 pm
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 10 March, 2016, 09:22:09 am
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 March, 2016, 11:00:01 am
I've got a 10 on Saturday so I'll be able to see where I am at.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 11 March, 2016, 10:28:17 am
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.

Ride the WHOLE FTP test in the same riding position as you would ride a race.
If you ‘sit up’ in the last 200 yards of a 10 miler, its like opening a parachute.
 
‘Drop the laundry’ AFTER you break the beams at the top end of the strip.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 March, 2016, 10:54:59 am
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.

Ride the WHOLE FTP test in the same riding position as you would ride a race.
If you ‘sit up’ in the last 200 yards of a 10 miler, its like opening a parachute.
 
‘Drop the laundry’ AFTER you break the beams at the top end of the strip.

http://blog.trainerroad.com/should-i-be-in-my-aero-position-during-ftp-tests/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 11 March, 2016, 11:27:06 am
Aha, an argument!!  ;)

In a TT you need the maximum power that gets you to the end quickest. That is done in the position set up on the bike by your fitting service.
In training mode on the turbo, you want to train the muscle bundles that are appropriate to the riding position you take on the bike in the real race.
Therefore, if any other position is taken in training on the turbo, muscle bundles are being trained that may not necessarily be used in the race, and muscle bundles that are primarily used in the race are being neglected in training.

In weightlifting, its called “Strict form” where in training, the weightlifter takes as identical as possible movement to lift the bar as would be done in competition.

Oh, we’ve all seen photos of Chris Hoy in the smiths machine shifting big weights. This is good, but Sir Chris went out on the track or sat on the ergometer and trained in his racing position.

The fundamental theory of a turbo trainer is to SIMULATE a bicycle ride. If the training is done for a TT, take the TT riding position and use your imagination as the 25 miles counts up on the distance meter.
If the FTP test is to gauge your power during a TT, also take the TT position. Any other position to get a higher FTP value is cheating yourself.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 11 March, 2016, 01:21:20 pm
Aha, an argument!!  ;)

In a TT you need the maximum power that gets you to the end quickest. That is done in the position set up on the bike by your fitting service.
In training mode on the turbo, you want to train the muscle bundles that are appropriate to the riding position you take on the bike in the real race.
Therefore, if any other position is taken in training on the turbo, muscle bundles are being trained that may not necessarily be used in the race, and muscle bundles that are primarily used in the race are being neglected in training.

In weightlifting, its called “Strict form” where in training, the weightlifter takes as identical as possible movement to lift the bar as would be done in competition.

Oh, we’ve all seen photos of Chris Hoy in the smiths machine shifting big weights. This is good, but Sir Chris went out on the track or sat on the ergometer and trained in his racing position.

The fundamental theory of a turbo trainer is to SIMULATE a bicycle ride. If the training is done for a TT, take the TT riding position and use your imagination as the 25 miles counts up on the distance meter.
If the FTP test is to gauge your power during a TT, also take the TT position. Any other position to get a higher FTP value is cheating yourself.

Yebbut, if I do 2 * 20 mins and sit up for the last 3 mins as I'm struggling and I do this 1 week out of a 4 week block, then I have done less than 2% out of position.   Net difference will be chuff all.   I do 2 other sessions a week (OK not this week) that total over 3hrs and all of that is in position.

I've never done an FTP test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 March, 2016, 01:28:27 pm
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 11 March, 2016, 01:30:42 pm
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 March, 2016, 01:38:38 pm
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?

I wasn't going to. But I've decided as I set such an easy to beat target last year I need to do it properly this time, hence setting up the TT bike on the trainer.

I was also not going to ride the Mille Pennines.

Will ride the WCA 12h again in June and I'm also looking at what I can get to as far as 25, 50 and 100 mile events go while also riding an SR and crewing in an 8 in at least one regatta.

Something will probably have to give - possibly my sanity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 11 March, 2016, 01:45:26 pm
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?

I wasn't going to. But I've decided as I set such an easy to beat target last year I need to do it properly this time, hence setting up the TT bike on the trainer.

I was also not going to ride the Mille Pennines.

Will ride the WCA 12h again in June and I'm also looking at what I can get to as far as 25, 50 and 100 mile events go while also riding an SR and crewing in an 8 in at least one regatta.

Something will probably have to give - possibly my sanity.

Enjoy - I had a good year last year - my 2nd proper year of riding TTs, but this year is falling apart.   I might not make the Mersey unless I can get my shit together.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 11 March, 2016, 07:00:26 pm
I have decided to give the mersey 24 a go.  I have the TT bike built from bits sourced off eBay but properly set up and fitted.  I know I can ride for 24 hours and can do a sub 24 hour 400 on the road bike.  My age related target is 319 miles or 315.94 a week later which gives me 510km.  at 4 hours off the bike I have to average 25.52 per hour.  Less time off the bike gives me more km or a lower speed.

My club has no record for the 24 at all so I could take all age group records.  We also do not keep a tally, are non racing and do not have an awards dinner! oh well.

I will be haunting the mersey posts and must head out soon to have a look.  At the moment I have done 2 hours in tuck position and hope to increase that at the weekend.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 14 March, 2016, 01:06:33 pm
The whole point of setting up one’s TT bike on the turbo is to simulate a TT. Do everything one would do when riding a TT. That means STAYING in racing position right up to the finish line.

If one starts to struggle, one’s tactics were incorrect.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 14 March, 2016, 01:21:13 pm
The whole point of setting up one’s TT bike on the turbo is to simulate a TT. Do everything one would do when riding a TT. That means STAYING in racing position right up to the finish line.

If one starts to struggle, one’s tactics were incorrect.

Do you go round roundabouts in the TT position ?

I'm training for 50s through to 24hrs.   Sitting up for drinks, food & stretches is part of these events.

There's a difference between spending MOST of your time in position and ALL of your time in position.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 14 March, 2016, 02:18:22 pm
I said it was an argument. I'm psychic.

Sitting up for the brake levers and sippng is necessary, I admit, but it doesn't need specific training. ALL TRAINING should be done in the 'operational mode' according to the purpose of the bicycle.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 March, 2016, 02:33:00 pm
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 14 March, 2016, 03:21:42 pm
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.

I did my first TTs on 80", but moved up to 88" last year - it was good up to 30mph on Dual Carriageways, but a little wobbly over that.   I'm buying chainrings this year so I can use 90" or 92".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 15 March, 2016, 06:36:07 am
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.

I did my first TTs on 80", but moved up to 88" last year - it was good up to 30mph on Dual Carriageways, but a little wobbly over that.   I'm buying chainrings this year so I can use 90" or 92".

 :o  I spend most of my TT in 108". It goes up to 117 and then 128 on downhills. 30mph is 80 rpm in top, 99 rpm in 108". 400 Watts,,,  Cruzin'.  :thumbsup:

I tell lies. The 80 rpm stomping sprint in 128" is the final 300 metres of slightly downhill to the finish line,,,   ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 March, 2016, 12:38:00 pm
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 17 March, 2016, 01:45:50 pm
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.

Was that a 'sub-maximal' RPE based test?
More Watts for less HR = increased VO2 uptake.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 March, 2016, 02:25:44 pm
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 March, 2016, 03:15:38 pm
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.

Was that a 'sub-maximal' RPE based test?
More Watts for less HR = increased VO2 uptake.  :thumbsup:

No, just a particular work-out. 'Carter' from TrainerRoad.

This morning:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3421280-carter

31st January:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3078982-carter

It's 45 minutes of endurance work. The 31st January one was the last work-out before my most recent test. NP was 170W, average HR 137

Same drill this morning, NP was 175W, average HR 130.

For the sweet-spot work, I did Carillon (1h of sweet-spot intervals) on 12th January with average HR of 150 and Max HR 176.

Last night was Carillon 45 with average HR 143 and max HR of 161.

I should be looking for +5W on FTP, at least.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 March, 2016, 04:19:00 pm
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)

Yes, if you want to continue to be far faster than me.  :P

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 March, 2016, 10:12:56 pm
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)

Yes, if you want to continue to be far faster than me.  :P

i don't have this particular objective, but i want to do well (i.e. my best) in the 24hr tt
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 March, 2016, 10:44:55 pm
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)

Yes, if you want to continue to be far faster than me.  :P

i don't have this particular objective, but i want to do well (i.e. my best) in the 24hr tt

Yes, good luck!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on 17 March, 2016, 11:09:54 pm
Anyone used one of the sufferfest videos for inspiration?
I'm using music but still it's kinda boring doing my 3 x 10 mins intervals @ at.
Thinking one of the endurance or base vids playing on a tablet while on the gym bike may help as I can alter the resistance on manual to simulate the difference in effort.

Just wondered what the consensus is regarding them?
Thanks

John, I use Sufferfest quite a lot. At home I have a smart trainer (BKool) which is controlled by either the Sufferfest App, or by TrainerRoads on the computer with Sufferfest running within TR (or I just use Zwift). As I spend a great deal of time away from home, I use gym bikes more than I use my trainer, and on those I use simple RPE and vary the resistance to get the right RPE for the video, which I play using the app. As I know my FTP, the app will tell me what power I should be aiming for in each interval, and most gym bikes will give a power readout. Some aren't very accurate, but it doesn't take long to adjust your effort and derive a correction factor to make it about right, based on feel. They are a great way to make intervals fun, and help you get more out of indoor training than you otherwise might. The semi-pros above may be working on the bleeding edge of their capabilities; I don't, but I'm getting better than I was last year or the year before. I won't be troubling the leaderboard in the club TTs, but I'll at least know I'm giving it a good effort!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 18 March, 2016, 07:45:55 am
Thanks for that Tim,

I now have sufferfest's Blender video which I have used once recently on the gym bike playing on my android tablet and also using my rpe relating it to the load readout on the bike. First impressions are great as it gives the mind something to concentrate on and the video keeps you motivated by changing power and cadence etc. So far it's made my first use a better workout as a result. Looking forward to more of the same and maybe trying the android app when it's available.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 18 March, 2016, 07:49:35 am
What does that methodology class as ‘Endurance’? Is it referring to a five hour roadrace?

On this website, ‘Endurance’ means AT LEAST a 10 hour 200 km ride. This is completed at approx. 100 W Average with 130 W ‘steady riding’ and occasional excursions to 320 W uphill.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 18 March, 2016, 07:55:09 am
What’s to be remembered is the aerodynamics of the bicycle change the kCals/mile ( workload ) for the rider.
On a Turbo, this is usually fixed, or adjustable by tweaking the machine’s magnetic or fluid brake module.

For any meaningful workout to simulate a specific type of event, the machine’s brake module should be adjusted to simulate the aerodynamics of the bike for the event.

Mine is 30 kCals/mile for my Audaxy bike, 20 kCals/mile for my TT bike and 45 kCals/mile for my commute lugger.
This is based on flat road, 16 Deg C and still air.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 18 March, 2016, 09:32:52 am
2 * 90min tempo workouts this week - Mon & Thu - and a 5hr ride planned for Sunday morning.

Last few weeks have hopefully been a blip.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 March, 2016, 10:05:25 am
What does that methodology class as ‘Endurance’? Is it referring to a five hour roadrace?

On this website, ‘Endurance’ means AT LEAST a 10 hour 200 km ride. This is completed at approx. 100 W Average with 130 W ‘steady riding’ and occasional excursions to 320 W uphill.

It's based on the power training zones used by the likes of Coggan, Friel etc. In this context, endurance is something like 55-75% FTP. The definition of the zone therefore varies according to the training state of the rider. A typical duration in this zone according to Coggan would be 2-5 hours but may be longer or shorter.

For me, the endurance zone would be 142-195W based on my last FTP test. 100W is active recovery. I would expect to be able to average 150W+ on a 200k ride, and my NP for the 109km ride on Saturday was 183W, also in the endurance zone, but with excursions as high as 800W on short hills.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on 18 March, 2016, 10:46:31 am
What does that methodology class as ‘Endurance’? Is it referring to a five hour roadrace?

On this website, ‘Endurance’ means AT LEAST a 10 hour 200 km ride. This is completed at approx. 100 W Average with 130 W ‘steady riding’ and occasional excursions to 320 W uphill.


Bollox. It might on the Audax board, but this is The Knowledge and it applies to all and any type of cycling. Just because you're an endurance magi does not mean others are aiming for the same thing. For most of us, an endurance ride is anything over an hour (which covers any TT that normal people are likely to be interested in!). It's a bonus if we can stand up and/or hold a conversation afterwards. And that is a perfectly reasonable state of play. Audax, Racing and long-distance TT-relevant boards and forums are available for those who are specifically looking for advice on those pursuits.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bikenrrd on 18 March, 2016, 10:55:13 am
Team pursuit is an endurance event. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 18 March, 2016, 11:24:14 am
I hope you’re joking.  ;)

IIRC, an ‘Endurance event’ is any activity which completely depletes the natural storage of glycogen in the body and then continues.
To maintain activity, nutrition needs to be ingested.

Some folks on this website have stated they go out for a 100km ‘fasted’, and don’t bother stopping for food. For them, 100km is not ‘endurance’.

I ride 25 milers ‘fasted’, using most of my glycogen stores in the event. For me, that’s not ‘endurance’.

The threshold for ‘endurance’ for each individual depends on their level of fitness and pulmonary efficiency, ie VO2 uptake.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on 18 March, 2016, 11:36:26 am
An endurance ride is anything that goes on long enough to stop you getting a normal meal or hitting opening time at the pub. So there.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 18 March, 2016, 11:39:03 am
I'm no good at any time trial that lasts less than 4hrs.   It takes me that long to warm up.

By Tim's definition I am not normal.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on 18 March, 2016, 11:40:27 am
Yep, I'd go with that!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 23 March, 2016, 06:35:30 pm
Time to give up your bedtime cookies?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26741119
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 March, 2016, 06:43:05 pm
Makes sense: if you ate well before bed, you're less likely to be in a genuinely 'fasted' state in the morning. My late night snack is usually greek yoghurt and berries with nuts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 23 March, 2016, 08:09:38 pm
Train low strategies (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CQgTSBt4MJU/VuGxw5I12XI/AAAAAAAACMo/2TK7xbOGQ6Ymg_q3_vF9GLv0LWLCqa8EQ/s1600/train-low-morton.png)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 24 March, 2016, 06:32:53 am
"Fasted" = "Nil by mouth 24hrs".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 March, 2016, 02:58:44 pm
FTP and fat burning test at bw cycling in Bristol today.

FTP 280-300W.

Peak fat burning 66%.

Both are PRs. Well pleased with the results of the sweet spot base training plan. Particularly the fat burning number is better than I'd feared.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 29 March, 2016, 05:18:58 pm
FTP and fat burning test at bw cycling in Bristol today.

FTP 280-300W.

Peak fat burning 66%.

Both are PRs. Well pleased with the results of the sweet spot base training plan. Particularly the fat burning number is better than I'd feared.

I assume that peak cat burning was measured via respiratory exchange ratio,  but 66% of what?

What were your numbers before the base training plan?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 March, 2016, 06:59:37 pm
FTP and fat burning test at bw cycling in Bristol today.

FTP 280-300W.

Peak fat burning 66%.

Both are PRs. Well pleased with the results of the sweet spot base training plan. Particularly the fat burning number is better than I'd feared.

I assume that peak cat burning was measured via respiratory exchange ratio,  but 66% of what?

What were your numbers before the base training plan?

I did FTP tests at home using TrainerRoad which were low-mid 250s FTP after PBP. Tested again, mid-plan early February, 259W FTP. The intensity and volume stepped up after that, and recently the work-outs based on that FTP have seemed pretty easy. I wasn't making so much progress until I switched from "Traditional Base" to "Sweet-Spot Base".

As for the fat-burning, it's % of total calories burned. In absolute terms, it tends to follow a hyperbolic curve, with the peak typically around 50% VO2max. YMMV. This seemed to bear out for me today.

I've done this test 3 times last year; Feb 220W, peak fat 25%. April 240W, peak fat 55%. August, 260W, peak fat 35% (disappointing fat burning just before PBP).

What is interesting is that the indoor training programme is getting better results both on FTP and fat-burning than doing lots of long steady distance (feb-april last year I did 6 weekends in a row of Audax events ranging from 200-400km). Another factor, probably, is consistency of training. After PBP I started training on the following Sunday having finished the ride on Wednesday evening. Though there have been missed workouts, and the odd week with little to no training, I've been pretty dedicated over the winter, to the extent that I trained on Christmas Day and Boxing Day.

In the past, the tests done in TrainerRoad and done at BW Cycling have been fairly consistent, so I'll put 280W into TR as my FTP value and see how the work-outs pan out. If 280 is in line, then despite being heavier than in August, this is also a PB for FTP/kg (since I've been testing anyway).



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 29 March, 2016, 09:27:25 pm

I've done this test 3 times last year; Feb 220W, peak fat 25%. April 240W, peak fat 55%. August, 260W, peak fat 35% (disappointing fat burning just before PBP).


This doesn't make any sense to me. I would have expected it to be all very similar if it is the peak value % of calories produced by fat burning for different exercise intensities, as in general the lower the intensity the greater the % fat burning. I was expecting a % of HRmax, anaerobic threshold HR or FTP, etc. for when the body switches from predominately fat burning to carbs.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 March, 2016, 10:04:37 pm
It's not a switch. But that was around 60%?FTP
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 March, 2016, 10:15:08 pm
In a rest interval now. Fat burning as an absolute climbs then is flattish until approaching FTP. At lower intensities it dominates.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 March, 2016, 10:15:33 pm
Unless untrained!

Edit: my peak fat burning % was only 25% in Feb last year.  HFLC advocates have cited such poor results as requiring a high fat diet to rectify.

However I took it to mean I needed to train more and smarter. Last year's solution was high volume low intensity. It got me to 55% fat burning in 2 months. And to 240W FTP in that time.

This year I've changed tack and done less volume with more intensity. My FTP improvement is not a surprise though it's more than I'd hoped for. The fat burning being better is a surprise. However the difference between trained and untrained endurance athletes is mostly increased fat burning capacity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 30 March, 2016, 01:01:44 pm
The differences between untrained and trained endurance athletes are :-
a/ The trained athlete has a higher VO2 uptake value.
b/ The trained athlete has developed a more extensive vascular system.
c/ The trained athlete has developed the slow twitch fibres in preference to the fast twitch fibres.

( An untrained person has enough fast twitch fibres to phosphocreatine tear the arm off someone trying to kidnap their baby. )

I would like to know the determination test techniques to assess fat burning percentages. Is it by blood sampling?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 30 March, 2016, 01:23:27 pm
I would like to know the determination test techniques to assess fat burning percentages. Is it by blood sampling?

The only way I know is to measure the respiratory exchange ratio, I.e. compare the amount of oxygen used to CO2 produced, quite easily done during a VO2max test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 March, 2016, 01:25:45 pm
Respiratory Quotient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient

The ratio of CO2 exhaled to oxygen inhaled varies according to the fat/carbohydrate mix.

Carbohydrate molecules have a higher oxygen content, and thus require less oxygen to metabolise, hence proportionally more CO2 is exhaled. Functional threshold was also estimated from this quotient (once RQ raised to 1.0, that was threshold). RQ can go above 1.0 when above threshold, AIUI.

What the testing I've done showed was that absolute rates of fat burning are substantially higher now than a year ago, right across the range of intensities below threshold. In absolute terms, in Feb 2015 at 140W, I was under 3kcal/min of fat, with around 9kcal/min total energy, so I had to find 6kcal/min of carbohydrate. That's 90g of carbohydrate per hour, which is more than can typically be ingested. Hence, it's unsustainable.

Now, according to the latest test, the ratios are reversed; I've not yet received the detailed numbers, but from what I saw, I'm burning over 6kcal/min of fat, and 3kcal/min of carboydrate, at that intensity. That is very sustainable, only requiring 45g/hour of carbohydrate, which is well within typical absorption limits.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 31 March, 2016, 07:09:31 am
How much of the oxygen content of CHO and inhaled O2 goes to the manufacture of water?

What is described is a ‘quick’ method of assessing fat vs carb usage during exercise. The REAL method is to ride regularly for some months, recording how much carbs one needs to ingest, fat % lost and how one feels after one’s regular 100 mile training route.

After several months, not only will the person know how much carb to ingest before the event, how much fat% they are predicted to lose; but also how well they climb hills, cruise and sprint.

In addition, lots of beautiful countryside can be seen during the ‘base training’.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 01 April, 2016, 11:41:51 am
started a gym membership today, going to use their wattbikes to track progress during the next few months as well as be doing spinning classes couple of times a week. with commuting and audaxing added to that it should get me in shape for the 24hr.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 April, 2016, 10:39:17 pm
Feeling very fatigued after VoTR and Yr Elenydd on consecutive weekends.

But if I don't have a half decent base now, I never will. Compared to 3rd March, on the same work-out, my power is +7W and my average HR -7bpm, with a very much flatter heart rate curve. In fact my HR barely responded to the mild variation in intensity in the workout.

This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 13 April, 2016, 09:54:14 am
This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.

Measure your aerobic decoupling factor. Testing it is a nice easy workout, and it'll give more feedback on your aerobic fitness:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 18 April, 2016, 12:20:23 pm
i did the mmp test on a wattbike yesterday and it indicates the ftp of 308w (and 4.6w/kg). i will go an reassess this by doing a 20min test at 325w and see if i can sustain it. oh, the pain!..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 April, 2016, 12:27:00 pm
These numbers make more sense!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 18 April, 2016, 01:18:52 pm
This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.

Measure your aerobic decoupling factor. Testing it is a nice easy workout, and it'll give more feedback on your aerobic fitness:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling

I noticed that this is a metric on GC when I tried it at the weekend  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 April, 2016, 02:44:39 pm
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 19 April, 2016, 12:05:55 pm
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.

Did you start cold?

If you did, there's no surprise your HR dropped for a uniform power production.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 April, 2016, 12:33:23 pm
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.

Did you start cold?

If you did, there's no surprise your HR dropped for a uniform power production.

In September, it wasn't the case, and a similar work-out had a +5% decoupling.

In February, it was 3.1%.

It's very unlikely that I will ever do a 4h AeT test on the trainer, to be honest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 26 April, 2016, 12:39:36 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 April, 2016, 12:47:25 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

I was doing 2*20 with 5 mins rest but found the second one very hard.

I then moved to Friel's 4*10 with 2 mins rest and found it mentally easier*

I'm currently in 2 minds about the Mersey Roads - go on the understanding that I may not achieve my best or pass this year and have a go next year.....


Rob

*although I bailed on the 4th interval last night as my HR was way too high at the end of the 3rd interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 26 April, 2016, 12:59:05 pm
<...>
I'm currently in 2 minds about the Mersey Roads - go on the understanding that I may not achieve my best or pass this year and have a go next year.....

there is still time to prepare and sometimes i find myself in the flow (very rarely though!) despite the lack of preparation. your experience alone is worth a fair few miles!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 26 April, 2016, 01:12:29 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

Following on from what Rob mentioned, don't cut short the interval. Turn it into 4*10 or 8*5 if need be. Extend the rest period if necessary but finish what you intended to do with respect the time spent in each zone.

IME I found this psychologically better knowing that you had completed the session and had created a benchmark.

It's training, it ain't supposed to be easy! ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 April, 2016, 02:20:44 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

Following on from what Rob mentioned, don't cut short the interval. Turn it into 4*10 or 8*5 if need be. Extend the rest period if necessary but finish what you intended to do with respect the time spent in each zone.


Agreed - and this is something I have said elsewhere, but there was something horribly wrong last night in that I thought I might re-decorate the garage floor.   This was a session that I did twice last week, completing (sort of) happily each time.    I struggled to get through the 3rd interval last night, feeling worse then I had done in the last 5mins of each session last week.   Occasionally it's better to back off with a view to not compromising the quality of the rest of the weeks sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on 26 April, 2016, 03:10:36 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins -

I started using Wattbikes once a week at our new bike shop.

They use British Cycling training plans and I definitely feel the benefits.

The main thing I notice when using Wattbikes is how superhuman the Pros are.  If you've never used power to train then you probably won't know what 475Watts feels like at 100 rpm.  I do*, and it's what Bradley Wiggins did for 55 minutes when he won the TT Worlds.  It's basically impossible.

*I am somewhere short of maintaining those numbers for 55 minutes.**

** About 54 minutes and 30 seconds short.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 April, 2016, 04:24:31 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

The FTP test estimates your anaerobic threshold. However, most people will fall short for muscular endurance and thus cannot just go do a 2x20 at this level straight away. For example in the plan I'm on, the next 3 weeks have over-unders, they start off with 3x6 minutes, then they do 4x9 minutes, then 3x12. The total time around threshold is constant but the duration of the intervals increases each week. Then after a recovery week it switches to just below threshold, with 5x10, then 4x12, then 3x15. Note the slight drop in total duration at threshold as the intervals get longer.

Start off with shorter intervals and work your way up to 2x20 as suggested by others. Extend the recoveries if necessary. Attempting these type of workouts without moving air is unlikely to go well. I have an 18" floor standing fan which is working well for me.

This kind of training also relies on your aerobic base fitness to be good. For something like your Mersey Roads aerobic base is going to be very important. Hence your training week must include long, steady work as well. I was advised to spend 80% in this way, but I'm doing more variety. Of course, riding the Brevet Cymru this weekend will result in a lot of endurance zone work!



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 26 April, 2016, 09:06:15 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins -

I started using Wattbikes once a week at our new bike shop.

They use British Cycling training plans and I definitely feel the benefits.

The main thing I notice when using Wattbikes is how superhuman the Pros are.  If you've never used power to train then you probably won't know what 475Watts feels like at 100 rpm.  I do*, and it's what Bradley Wiggins did for 55 minutes when he won the TT Worlds.  It's basically impossible.

*I am somewhere short of maintaining those numbers for 55 minutes.**

** About 54 minutes and 30 seconds short.

I think watts/kilo is a better comparison if you want like for like. Wiggo's power for the hour was 458 watts, bearing in mind this is only 8 watts less than my three minute effort the mind does boggle. However if you take his weight at the time, which IIRC was around the 75kg mark, gives a w/kg of 6 and a bit which is about right.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 26 April, 2016, 09:11:41 pm
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

The FTP test estimates your anaerobic threshold. However, most people will fall short for muscular endurance and thus cannot just go do a 2x20 at this level straight away. For example in the plan I'm on, the next 3 weeks have over-unders, they start off with 3x6 minutes, then they do 4x9 minutes, then 3x12. The total time around threshold is constant but the duration of the intervals increases each week. Then after a recovery week it switches to just below threshold, with 5x10, then 4x12, then 3x15. Note the slight drop in total duration at threshold as the intervals get longer.

Start off with shorter intervals and work your way up to 2x20 as suggested by others. Extend the recoveries if necessary. Attempting these type of workouts without moving air is unlikely to go well. I have an 18" floor standing fan which is working well for me.

This kind of training also relies on your aerobic base fitness to be good. For something like your Mersey Roads aerobic base is going to be very important. Hence your training week must include long, steady work as well. I was advised to spend 80% in this way, but I'm doing more variety. Of course, riding the Brevet Cymru this weekend will result in a lot of endurance zone work!

Sound advice, Friel recommends (out of 20 weeks) the first 12 weeks spent purely on base work and technique. For me, this was tempo, aerobic endurance, high cadence work and the odd sweet spot session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 26 April, 2016, 09:21:47 pm
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 April, 2016, 03:08:12 am
w/kg isn't the be and end all. For a flat TT course it's more about w/CdA.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 27 April, 2016, 08:55:09 am
Target for a twice weekly CT20 ( 20 min FTP test ) is 1% better than last time. As weeks go by, remember 1% becomes a larger absolute value.

The process takes a long time. The only “Quick win” is to sell your soul to the Devil.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on 27 April, 2016, 08:57:53 am
I think watts/kilo is a better comparison if you want like for like. Wiggo's power for the hour was 458 watts, bearing in mind this is only 8 watts less than my three minute effort the mind does boggle. However if you take his weight at the time, which IIRC was around the 75kg mark, gives a w/kg of 6 and a bit which is about right.

When I compare Watts/Kilo it just makes matters worse.

Heart-rate was noticeably down today (confirming my suspicions that I feel a bit ill). I'm going to give it a miss for a week now, then go back for a MMP (3 minute test) in about 10 days. It's the longest 3 minutes of my life but I'm confident I'll see measurable improvements after my first 10 sessions.

I've already set some Strava PBs that I set in July before PBP (when I was as fit as I can ever remember).  Since I don't use a power-meter those PBs are anecdotal (wind direction, temperature, ..other variables).  Still, I really wasn't expecting a PB at this time of the year, especially over an 11 minute segment.  I definitely noticed the top of the hills appearing before I ran out of breath.  I've done the same segment twice a week for a couple of years so I have a very solid baseline for my times.

I'll check it wasn't a Strava malfunction when I'm feeling recovered.

I've trained on my own turbo and in Spin classes but the Wattbike sessions have made me dig deeper than anything I've done before.  There's just no hiding.  If you aren't in Zone 4 at 95rpm then the whole class knows it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 27 April, 2016, 09:05:24 am
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

The rider at the pointy end of the BBAR - Adam Topham - for the last few years has moved to a plan with pretty much all tempo and all done on the turbo.   He's done 300+ miles in a 12hr so seems to work.   Other successful 24hr riders have been known to do a load of HIIT as well.   Ultra racers seem to do an awful lot of base work.   

I'm trying to do 3-4hrs tempo each weekend on the TT bike in position, but will up that in the coming weeks and reduce my turbo work.   Comfort in position is vital - the 2nd 12hrs of my last, and only, 24hr were ruined by back, hip and later neck issues.   I do believe in the longer events that it's not necessarily the rider with the highest ftp that wins - it's the one that can feed, hydrate, stay aero and not stop.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 27 April, 2016, 11:25:41 am
Target for a twice weekly CT20 ( 20 min FTP test ) is 1% better than last time. As weeks go by, remember 1% becomes a larger absolute value.

The process takes a long time. The only “Quick win” is to sell your soul to the Devil.

Are you suggesting a FTP test is done twice per week?

With respect fuck that, the recovery alone is not worth it and I'd rather be doing something more constructive. At the beginning of a 4 week block of training after you've tapered for a week (following on from a three week block of training) - for sure, so you can readjust your zones and see how are you getting on, but not every week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 April, 2016, 11:31:06 am
+1 to LMT's last post.

You can gauge your improvement by how the workouts feel. An accurate FTP test is hard, and you need to be fresh, doing it twice weekly would be insane.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 27 April, 2016, 11:58:36 am
+1 to LMT's last post.

You can gauge your improvement by how the workouts feel. An accurate FTP test is hard, and you need to be fresh, doing it twice weekly would be insane.

Not to mention, pointless.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 May, 2016, 11:10:23 pm
So an interesting couple of days after DNSing the Brevet Cymru as I felt too tired. Saturday off then I tried a TrainerRoad workout which I thought might be too hard - Leconte - it was. I did 2 of the 3 sets so it basically became Prater. Which is 2x20 over unders with a short break in the middle of each 20. Because I stopped early I did 30 mins easy immediately afterwards. Then last night I did Bays which is an hour near the top of the endurance zone with 4 x 20s sprints thrown in to make it interesting. Sore legs.

Today I wanted to do some vo2max work so I picked Solomons which I've not tried since increasing my FTP to 280. Tough, very tough. I had to turn it down by 5% half way through. Despite that I did a PR for 2 minute power later on in the workout and it's the highest 90 minute NP I've achieved. The last three 2-minute intervals were tough with the burning extending down from my quads through my knees into my lower legs. Ow, ow, ow. Now knackered.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 May, 2016, 12:04:34 pm
Turbo sessions last week did not go at all to plan.   Not having a power meter I have been using speed/cadence assuming that my body weight pressing down on the turbo would give me the same level of resistance.   Turns out this probably isn't the case and I'm now going to test run down when I put the turbo back together at the end of a weekend.

Did 6hrs on the TT bike on a circuit of Romney Marsh on Saturday.   I was able to hold 20mph+ average but had a few back/neck niggles so back to the osteopath on Saturday.   I would have done an extra hour but got soaked in a sleety thunderstorm so flaked when I passed the car.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 May, 2016, 01:12:42 pm
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.

Looking at the typical structure for high-volume in TrainerRoad, high volume training is typically around 8h per week with around 400 TSS per week. Typically it will be something like for 5 days,

Monday - rest.
Tuesday - intervals, e.g. threshold work.
Wednesday - tempo or endurance.
Thursday - intervals again.
Friday - rest.
Saturday - longer intervals session (e.g. 90 minutes)
Sunday - long endurance session (3h or more)

If you could devote more time, then for an ultra endurance racer, either replacing threshold work with a longer endurance session might be an option, or adding extra "TSS accumulation" endurance rides in. It depends on how much training volume you can handle. If training 6 days a week then Friday can be used for additional endurance work.

Within the mesocycle, you re-test FTP every 4-6 weeks, and every 4-6 weeks is also a recovery week. The mesocycle contains the base/build/speciality structure that I've been using. So I did base (hence this thread) starting the week after PBP, with no real break (but I have had the odd week off) then switched to build last month, but that's truncated by the fact my A event is the Mille Pennines, so I'm now doing the speciality (Century) plan from TrainerRoad which should take me right up to the event including a taper. As the event is clearly more than a century, I will add in more endurance work most likely (as well as riding a 600k which will require a recovery week).

I had a very easy week last week due to Real Life and I also have to fit around rowing club training sessions, which in theory could be 4 per week, so I often have to adjust the plan accordingly. I should've done a VO2max intervals session yesterday but was tired so skipped it. I might do it after work today, as I had a good night's sleep for the first time in a few days.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 May, 2016, 12:49:33 am
This week I fell asleep at my desk at work at 6pm on Thursday so no rowing erg session or cycling training on Thursday. I felt fine on Friday, worked from home which saves some energy, and did a HIIT workout on Friday evening. Today I did a rowing water session in the morning and a slightly shorter, but arguably in some ways harder than planned cycling workout (Prater). I previously failed to complete the final block of this on target with FTP set to 280W but got through it tonight.

I think it felt harder than the HIIT workout despite having a lower normalised power for the hour (incidentally - this was a personal best for 60 minute average power). What that indicates, I suspect, is that where I still lack is muscular endurance. But it's clearly improving. However not enough to consider bumping my FTP up - comparing the workout I did at 255W FTP setting, my HR was a lot higher (peaking at 189bpm at the end of the final set). I'd say it was touch and go as to whether I got through it. Back in early March I peaked at 169 - probably suggesting my true FTP at the time was higher than 255W.

If I ever get comfortable with this workout at 280W then I should be retesting.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 13 May, 2016, 11:27:42 am
Last two turbo sessions have revealed the ugly truth - 16% aerobic decoupling. And that, my friends, is one of the reasons I'm a helper at the Bryan Chapman this weekend, and not a rider.

I'm SO (aerobically) unfit  :facepalm:.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 May, 2016, 11:43:52 am
I did a 2h workout on TrainerRoad on Sunday which was endurance (but not constant - it went as high as 210W which is near the top of the endurance zone for my FTP).

Pw:Hr of 4.47%.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 13 May, 2016, 02:06:24 pm


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 13 May, 2016, 05:15:28 pm


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Have fun! FWIW I opted for the Miglia Italia. ;D :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 16 May, 2016, 05:10:20 pm
100miles on the TT bike on Saturday keeping HR in the endurance zone.   Averaged 20.8mph so I think I'm somewhere where I need to be.

PB'd a 10 the following morning which was a bit hurty.   Maybe shouldn't have pushed that hard.   

I've reduced the time on the turbo and increased the long rides in the last few weeks and I have 3 100m TTs in the space of 4 weeks between the end of May and and 3rd week of June.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 May, 2016, 06:16:54 pm
One difference between the way I've trained this year and previous years of riding lots of Auk events to build up.

The skin seems to be staying on my face.

 ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 17 May, 2016, 08:54:20 am


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Is doing 'as fast as I can' rides twice a week TOO much??   ;)  Someone said this kind of thing was "pointless".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 17 May, 2016, 11:48:46 am


thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

I've not looked around much for other plans.

Training is generally structured into macro cycles (season) meso cycles (e.g. an 8 week block) and micro cycles (typically around 7 days). The microcycle in particular is pretty arbitrary, but making it about a week allows a structure that fits around work etc.
<...>

thank you for sharing. structured training is the most efficient way to get stronger, however sticking to the plan in real life is easier said than done.. i will do another chunk of long steady riding in italy in two weeks time (2200km) and after that be riding 75km local loop as fast as i can couple of times a week.

Is doing 'as fast as I can' rides twice a week TOO much??   ;)  Someone said this kind of thing was "pointless".

Unless he's going at 75kph then the above won't qualify as a FTP test - don't confuse a FTP test with a high tempo ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 May, 2016, 11:51:56 am


Unless he's going at 75kph then the above won't qualify as a FTP test - don't confuse a FTP test with a high tempo ride.

exactly, two very different things
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 May, 2016, 01:16:34 pm
I'm thinking about doing another FTP test soon. However it will be tough, to show improvement vs the test at BW I will have to average around 300W for 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 17 May, 2016, 01:17:12 pm
It’s the “as fast as I can” that had me wondering.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 May, 2016, 01:31:05 pm
I'd say go slower than that for aerobic fitness and do a short hard ride as well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 May, 2016, 02:37:08 pm
It’s the “as fast as I can” that had me wondering.
my local loop (https://www.strava.com/activities/582446315) has quite a few traffic lights, roundabouts, blind corners, downhills etc where you have to stop or ease off, so even if pushing hard there is some time to recover.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 May, 2016, 11:25:17 pm
Retested tonight 2x8 minute test. Boy it sucks. 276W. This is up from 259W in February - lower than the 280 tested using RQ. I suspect this method is more realistic. My HR hit 190 so I don't think I under tested.

I'm fucked.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: tonyh on 20 May, 2016, 05:56:05 am
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 22 May, 2016, 10:18:03 am
Thought I may as well do an FTP test - just for shits and giggles.

I chose the 2x8 format as I'm not supposed to do extended duration maximal efforts. Result - 206w (2.4w/Kg).

I also tested my BP immediately after each work interval, because of my history of HRE; 181/95 and 174/93 - these sound scary, but actually they're pretty typical BP readings for a big aerobic effort, and they're waaaay less than I scored during the stress test at the hospital a couple of years ago (260/90!) - so that's all good.

206 seems a bit feeble to me though. Work to do, I think - once I've traded in these jelly-legs for some new ones...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 May, 2016, 12:14:50 pm
Do bear in mind that most people under test - particularly on the first attempt - as getting an accurate result requires pushing yourself very hard and good pacing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 22 May, 2016, 12:22:26 pm
Do bear in mind that most people under test - particularly on the first attempt - as getting an accurate result requires pushing yourself very hard and good pacing.

Not sure I could have gone much harder TBH - my HR was in the 180s by the end of the second interval, my absolute max is 193, but I really don't like to push it that far. I guess an underestimate is better than an overestimate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 May, 2016, 10:19:50 pm
I did a 4x20 tempo ride yesterday. NP of 215W for two hours.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 26 May, 2016, 08:29:43 am
First 3 days of the Sustained Power Build done, the FTP test hurt and has certainly set a good level for the next sessions.  Hope I can keep on it given my rather random approach to 'base' - on reflection I under tested for that so the sessions were too easy & I got bored.

On the whole the TrainerRoad thing is exactly what I needed - tells me what to do & is tailored to my (rather poor) FTP level
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 May, 2016, 08:45:13 pm
Not trained at all since last weekend (apart from a rowing session on Tuesday) due to work and rowing in the Monmouth Regatta this weekend. Going for a ride outdoors tomorrow and will be trying to get back on it this week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 June, 2016, 10:07:33 am
A disruptive few weeks with regatta, being away a lot, and feeling a bit tired. Managed to get some quality training in as I took a bike and the KickR with me. Monday's workout I cut short as I've clearly detrained a bit (and might have been a bit tired with travel and not enough sleep). Last night's was a base workout and my average HR was only +2bpm since the same workout in early May - base should not disappear as fast as high end, which is useful given I'm supposed to be riding the Tan Hill 600k this weekend.

Tonight I'll throw in a harder one again - an over-unders threshold workout. That will be a tester.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 June, 2016, 04:19:02 pm
Dropped my mid-week turbo session durations but still doing 3 on top of the commuting.   Ended last weekend pretty knackered.   I have 100m TTs the next 2 weekends with the second one being my first A race of the year.

After that it's only 5 weeks to the 24hr.   I don't really have a plan how to fill those weeks yet, but I'm sure I'll think of something.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 June, 2016, 11:50:45 am
Struggled again, then went to the pub.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 June, 2016, 10:36:40 pm
Think I'm back. Completed an over-under workout on target. Phew!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 22 June, 2016, 12:56:11 am
Small numbers compared to others (and it's a virtual power curve so cannot compare anyhoo)

4 weeks into my TrainerRoad plan & I've just retested the 20-min test...
suggested FTP is up from 185 to 199 (so close to 200!)
Suggested LTHR is down from 158 to 157

Basically I appear to have worked just as hard with greater power output  :thumbsup:

I thought the last few sessions were a bit too easy  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 June, 2016, 01:54:00 am
Result!  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 22 June, 2016, 12:32:49 pm
Your voluntary muscles have worked harder ( more sustainable Watts ), because your pulmonary and vascular systems have developed to transport oxygen for the additional workload you demand. Your involuntary muscles have worked at very close to the same workload. Hence your LTHR is similar for increased power output.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 24 June, 2016, 05:34:33 pm
Can anyone explain if my understanding is correct, I am working with power on a gym bike as I've said before and have looked at a chart which attempts to correlate FTP to be in hr and power zones. Now I have attempted to work out my maximum minute power (mmp) which appears to be 250w based on the power I'm using which corresponds to my hr zone and my rpe each appear to agree with my perception.

I did a little test last night where I maintained 250w for exactly 1 minute on a timed interval workout which appeared to be a little bit easy for me as I was hitting a higher wattage and had to keep lowering my cadence to bring it back in line.

My question is does MMP actually mean your maximum power you can maintain over one minute? As my hr at the end was only around 165 ish (what I normally ride my bike at).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 24 June, 2016, 07:05:59 pm
I would suggest that for audax 165 bpm is rather high.  Even for a 30 year old 165bpm is on the high side.  I am 57 and my 20 min FTP test average HR is 167-168bpm with a maximum of about 177. Most people who ride Audax will try to be in the endurance range of about 120.  The problem with a MMP test done on HR is that the heart rate always lags behind the actual power and therefore it is the HR about 20 secs after the interval that is needed.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 24 June, 2016, 07:13:38 pm
Yup. And that's why I'm not audaxing this year - my average on a 200 is 145-155. Ten hours of that is just not healthy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 24 June, 2016, 09:32:32 pm
I'm 61 and trying t get a higher FTP which I suppose will mean I will produce more power through my heart rate range. If I travel with a hr of around 120 I will be too slow, All my rides irrespective of distance have me around 155-165 mostly and average is usually around 155bpm.

If I exercise below about 160-175 bpm I don't get any fitter  :(
my max hr is 185 when I get very light headed, but I struggle to get near this these days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 June, 2016, 01:29:42 am
My average HR on Yr Elenydd was 140. I've got no problem with that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 25 June, 2016, 06:45:31 am
I've never been able to find any actual literature saying explicitly that extended periods of high (as in >75% LTHR) heart rates are bad for you, but there's some evidence to show that a lot of training over the years can damage the heart.

The fact that a proportion of marathon runners, tested at the end of a marathon, show elevated levels of heart protein similar to that following an infarction, is telling. When I was taken to hospital in Good Friday 2014, my levels were raised - but they said not high enough to indicate a heart attack, "but it looks like you've run a half marathon".

Let's not forget - a marathon is only for 3 or 4 hours, even a 200 is two or three times that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 25 June, 2016, 09:02:51 am

My question is does MMP actually mean your maximum power you can maintain over one minute? As my hr at the end was only around 165 ish (what I normally ride my bike at).

Yes it does, to work it out; warm up for ~15' then go as hard as you can for one minute, the average power sustained in that minute is your MMP.

As Chris said, there is no correlation between this a HR. This is because for that minute you are working anaerobically mainly, which doesn't need oxygen. The body however, will need oxygen to process the lactate you are producing so HR goes up and continues to do so for a bit afterwards. This is also the reason for the lag in HR for any increase in effort, not enough oxygen for the demand so initially work is anaerobic until the HR catches up with the demand, usually 1-3 minutes. (Edit: it therefore takes some experience and skill to use HRs for controlling short intervals, which is why I do all my short intervals on a virtual power enabled turbo)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 25 June, 2016, 11:32:13 am
Thanks for the explanation pedal Castro I do my intervals 3 x 10 minutes with 3 minutes easy pedalling at around half the power of each session, I am trying to correlate my sustainable power with my hr after the lag so that when I am out on the bike I have some idea of what I can reasonably maintain.

In doing this I am trying to increase my FTP in order for me to produce more power for a given hr and hopefully allow me to ride at a lower hr than present without going too slow, as would be the case at present.

Going back to my question I was working backwards to roughly find my FTP from my workout using the MMP which corresponds to my steady state hr and my perceived exertion to hopefully ensure I am working out within the right zone.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 25 June, 2016, 12:45:55 pm
for the record, mmp needs to be calculated from the 3-minute test. pushing hard for only one minute will give a false result, which is typically 1.5x higher.

http://hub.wattbike.com/knowledge/the-3-minute-test (http://hub.wattbike.com/knowledge/the-3-minute-test)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 25 June, 2016, 01:13:43 pm
Zigzag has it right, MMP is done at three minutes not for one.

And John, this three minute effort is at paced full gas, so not an all out sprint but you should be on your limit in the last minute and at the end of the test you should be in a fair amount of pain. Heavy breathing, slumped over the bike, unable to acknowledge another person let alone speak to them, etc. ;)

<pissing contest alert> mine was 466w when last tested at the end of April.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JohnR on 25 June, 2016, 01:33:33 pm
Ah I see, no wonder it felt too easy over my one minute , thanks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 25 June, 2016, 04:51:58 pm
for the record, mmp needs to be calculated from the 3-minute test. pushing hard for only one minute will give a false result, which is typically 1.5x higher.

http://hub.wattbike.com/knowledge/the-3-minute-test (http://hub.wattbike.com/knowledge/the-3-minute-test)

Interesting, so the Wattbike MMP isn't actually your maximum power sustainable for one minute?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 25 June, 2016, 06:07:50 pm
in isolation one minute test doesn't tell much, so it has to be taken from the three minute test, when there's enough time to reach the max hr.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 25 June, 2016, 08:16:27 pm
in isolation one minute test doesn't tell much

It does, it tells you your maximum one minute power. What you mean is that it doesn't tell you much about your aerobic capacity which is true because a one minute all out effort is almost all anaerobic. Having read the Watttbike test protocol you linked to, the MMP seems to be an artificial construct that is somewhat less useful that doing a 20' FTP test.

We have IC7 Tomahawks at work which BC are supposedly going to replace their Watttbikes with,  however the inbuilt FTP test gives values that are far too high, mainly I suspect because the test protocol is inherently flawed being a ramp test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: giropaul on 25 June, 2016, 09:05:31 pm
in isolation one minute test doesn't tell much

It does, it tells you your maximum one minute power. What you mean is that it doesn't tell you much about your aerobic capacity which is true because a one minute all out effort is almost all anaerobic. Having read the Watttbike test protocol you linked to, the MMP seems to be an artificial construct that is somewhat less useful that doing a 20' FTP test.

We have IC7 Tomahawks at work which BC are supposedly going to replace their Watttbikes with,  however the inbuilt FTP test gives values that are far too high, mainly I suspect because the test protocol is inherently flawed being a ramp test.

Where I do my Wattbiking we have tried several tests. Generally, the 3 minute test is the most useful and accurate in setting training zones. We have also tried the ramp test ( possibly better for some riders with lower power figures) and some other tests, but all end up as within a few % of the zones from the 3 minute test.
I see more point in using training zones than ftp. I know it all amounts to the same thing in the end, but it's easier to design a training programme using the different zones, rather than % of a figure.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ningishzidda on 27 June, 2016, 11:38:17 am
in isolation one minute test doesn't tell much

It tells you if its worth going to a rollapaluza event.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 July, 2016, 12:26:36 am
First trainer session since Mille Pennines failure. Turned down FTP to 250W to reflect less training load since last test - did Gendarme which is 40x 30s:30r 120% FTP intervals in two blocks of 20. Was surprisingly easy. FTP might not have dropped so far, though maybe I just was some way off vo2max.

Will retest next week after Bewdley Regatta.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on 07 September, 2016, 12:58:10 pm
Currently on an 8 session Wattbike FTP improvement course.

Monday night was 4 x 6 minutes at 110% of FTP with 4 minutes recovery between (That doesn't include the 20 minute warm-up which are, to be frank.. fairly tough in themselves).

It's the session that has left me the most exhausted (and shaky) so far (Though I was thinking, "This seems fairly easy" after the first 2 minutes... silly..silly me.)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 September, 2016, 01:05:34 pm
Indeed, those kind of workouts catch you out. Sounds like you've made excellent progress overall.

I did a base rowing workout. 40 minutes "UT2" but my HR climbed quite high. Was maintaining average power of around 162W so in power terms it's in the right sort of place.

Going to try to build on the fitness I got this year (got my best FTP score yet in May) over the winter with some base work.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 09 September, 2016, 02:00:30 pm
Did you find TrainerRoads training plans helpful, Simon?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 September, 2016, 02:52:09 pm
Did you find TrainerRoads training plans helpful, Simon?

Yes, I found them very useful. I like the structure, the in-ride text generally is helpful, most of the workouts in the structured plans have this stuff. I haven't tried anyone else's to offer a comparison, but I'm very happy with it. I went into this spring with a higher FTP than I had before PBP last year, I felt that was a good result.

IIRC, your kit is compatible, and I still have 3 (I think) one month trial passes, if you want to check it out. Also their podcast is well worth a listen if you haven't checked it out already.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 September, 2016, 02:55:09 pm
I previously had some success with a generic training programme, but found this year more difficult to attain the gains that I thought might be there.   After a year of some great rides and some disappointing ones I have contacted a coach about next year.   I'll give it one good shot.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 09 September, 2016, 06:11:20 pm
IIRC, your kit is compatible, and I still have 3 (I think) one month trial passes, if you want to check it out. Also their podcast is well worth a listen if you haven't checked it out already.

Thanks! OK, I'll give it a go. It was a tossup between TrainerRoads and TrainingPeaks - but Joe Friel's training plans are eye-wateringly spendy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 09 September, 2016, 09:13:18 pm
I mentioned elsewhere about getting a coach.  I took the plunge at the end of July.  In October/November last year my FTP was 60 and I was doing reasonably well with "training" which really consisted of commuting a lot (30-70km per day) and some use of sufferfest on a turbo.  I was ill in January and then never really recovered my form but went onto a LCHF diet and with increased endurance managed the Easter Arrow.  Went to switzerland and did a a FTP test (Rubber glove) which gave me a FTP of 210.  Broke my collar bone and did not touch a bike for 4 weeks.

I then decided that I loved my cycling and had ambitions to do more and better. Therefore I needed to train.  Knowing myself I need structure and accountability.  I also have not got time to do the research on what sort of training i needed.  On various recommendations I contacted Digdeep and have been working with a coach for 5 weeks.  I am really enjoying it and despite possibly cycling less than i would have done in time if I had just done it myself I can already see real gains.  Frankly i am amazed how much difference it has made.

Now I am sure this is not for everybody.  Most people can probably stick to a training plan off the internet and have the determination needed to self train.  I haven't and without the constant feedback and encouragement I would not have done such structured worthwhile training.

In another thread the question is asked can you get faster after 50?  On the basis of the last 5 weeks this over 50 year old certainly can.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 10 September, 2016, 12:30:59 pm
So, it's all about improving your FTP (apparently). Watts/Kg.

* looks up the seminal Andrew Coggan power chart *

Hmm... I appear to be in the middle of the "Untrained" band. Work to do  :thumbsup:

(http://d4nuk0dd6nrma.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/powerprofiling.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 10 September, 2016, 03:13:47 pm
Failed in my attempt to do an FTP test this morning. After last weekend's 12h I have just done a couple of recovery 30 commutes and planned my first turbo session today. Decided at the last moment to do the TrainerRoad FTP 20' test instead of my normal intervals as I thought I was reasonably rested and it made sense to do it now as I start my next block.

Unfortunately a combination of the pain in my knee and the fact that my FTP is less than it was and so the on screen power target was perhaps too aspirational meant that I packed halfway through.

Overall not a bad season though despite all the hiccoughs with PBs at all distances except 24h which I DNF'd to safe my knee for the 12h. Hope to do significantly better next year so about to get down to some SERIOUS training, and lose some SERIOUS weight!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 10 September, 2016, 06:57:32 pm
Failed in my attempt to do an FTP test this morning. After last weekend's 12h I have just done a couple of recovery 30 commutes and planned my first turbo session today. Decided at the last moment to do the TrainerRoad FTP 20' test instead of my normal intervals as I thought I was reasonably rested and it made sense to do it now as I start my next block.

Unfortunately a combination of the pain in my knee and the fact that my FTP is less than it was and so the on screen power target was perhaps too aspirational meant that I packed halfway through.

Overall not a bad season though despite all the hiccoughs with PBs at all distances except 24h which I DNF'd to safe my knee for the 12h. Hope to do significantly better next year so about to get down to some SERIOUS training, and lose some SERIOUS weight!

If it helps I can still feel the 12.   All I have done this week is commute 3 times.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 13 September, 2016, 06:42:33 pm
More inappropriately timed training here, too; my first (Free Trial: Thanks SimonP  :thumbsup:) TrainerRoad FTP session, two days after a hilly 100. Needless to say, it was lower than my previous measurement, though not by much. As my previous was using different software (shouldn't matter, but you never know) I think I'll keep today's new figure - hopefully I'll get Free Gains next time.

Liking the TrainerRoad experience - some of the in-workout prompts are amusing.

"Try to choke back the vomit. Or at least get someone to hold your hair."
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on 13 September, 2016, 10:42:41 pm
I read a paper the other day that reviewed the training regimes of elite athletes across a range of endurance sports, and looked at changes to the program of elite and sub elite athletes. Some interesting extracts:

This is a long time ago (from page 1), but do you happen to remember which paper that was?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 14 September, 2016, 06:57:52 am
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 14 September, 2016, 08:36:36 am
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)

That's a hell of a daily deficit. Not concerned about losing lean mass?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 September, 2016, 04:23:00 pm
More inappropriately timed training here, too; my first (Free Trial: Thanks SimonP  :thumbsup:) TrainerRoad FTP session, two days after a hilly 100. Needless to say, it was lower than my previous measurement, though not by much. As my previous was using different software (shouldn't matter, but you never know) I think I'll keep today's new figure - hopefully I'll get Free Gains next time.

Liking the TrainerRoad experience - some of the in-workout prompts are amusing.

"Try to choke back the vomit. Or at least get someone to hold your hair."

Generally those prompts are very useful. Either for motivation in the tough workouts, for working on form in others, or for just breaking up the monotony of a 2h endurance effort.



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 16 September, 2016, 01:34:59 pm
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)

You don't see a connection?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 October, 2016, 01:26:23 pm
So after testing on Thursday then being away over the weekend, Sweet Spot Base I was launched again last night.

Because the 8 minute test was supposed to be Tuesday's workout, and I have DOMs from Monday circuit training, I opted for 45 minutes endurance.

If I can face it tonight, it's a 90 minute tempo intervals session. The DOMs is worse today, and I'm feeling tired, so I might pick something easier.

Currently not getting out on the water midweek with the rowing (due to earlier nights and lack of experienced coxes available) so am going to try to make sure I stick to the plan as much as possible.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 05 October, 2016, 02:26:50 pm
Really hurting today. 3 days hard sessions, 1 rest day then a manpower intervals session. Zone 2 tomorrow then power session on Friday. Rest Saturday tempo Sunday and then a rest week. I will need it
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 October, 2016, 08:47:36 pm
Agreed terms and a rough programme with a coach today.

Work starts 1st Nov. 

After a long discussion we're going to work without power.   That gives me a grand more budget for blingy bits.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 October, 2016, 01:03:05 am
Good luck!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 06 October, 2016, 06:07:29 am
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)

You don't see a connection?

That's the point! Loosing weight, power up on the fast days and doing strava PBs up local short sharp hills. All looking good :)

Entered the Cambridge Chrono so a major target next year is the qualify for France.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 06 October, 2016, 08:50:47 pm
Struggled home last night after two consecutive 60 mile commutes, had to stop for ice cream with 10 miles to go! Minimising carb intake during the day is helping the weight loss effort though, average kCal deficit running at 1200/day since I started 8 days ago, just need to keep it up 'til Xmas.  O:-)

You don't see a connection?

That's the point! Loosing weight, power up on the fast days and doing strava PBs up local short sharp hills. All looking good :)

Entered the Cambridge Chrono so a major target next year is the qualify for France.

You rock brao.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 October, 2016, 09:32:04 pm
I was too tired yesterday. Did sweet spot intervals at lunchtime as I worked from home. Dropped cadence to 80rpm for simulated climbing. Now full of tuna pasta bake. Might do an endurance hour once it's gone down.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 06 October, 2016, 10:27:14 pm
I'm trying to stick with the Marco Pinotti 10-12w FTP builder on Zwift. I did the 1hr FTP test, and got 291w from a 306w 20m average. Mate at lbs (who just got a Drivo, but says the Neo is usefully quieter) has just been trained in doing lactate threshold testing and has offered to do it for me for the cost of consumables. He said that calculating FTP from .95 * 20m average is just an estimate and for endurance LT testing is the way to go. Does that sound right? Certainly I'm finding the FTP builder programme harder with my new score! Maybe it is overly optimistic.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 October, 2016, 11:24:02 pm
Well, I've had LT testing done. The protocol was a ramp test to vo2max in 25W increments, a minute at a time. So there is an issue of precision. I've also had FTP tests done using respiratory quotient. 20W increments. I think ramp tests are more reliable in one sense as they don't rely on pacing an effort. Many people will under test initially as they learn how to pace a time trial effort. You need to be motivated as it's not easy.

2009 LT was 225W. RQ testing last year went 220, 240, 260W. This year 260W, 280W. I compared the 280W against TrainerRoad 2x8 min test which scored 275W. So I guess really the RQ test said threshold up to 280W. The RQ test added value because it confirmed a big improvement in aerobic base fitness. I think LT testing can confirm this also as lactate should be lower in the subthrehshold zones with a good base.

The other issue to consider is just because your LT is X the length of time you can sit around that level is influenced by how good your base is, by motivation as mentioned above, and also by muscular endurance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 October, 2016, 11:23:31 am
I'm on the trainer now doing an endurance ride and watching the tennis. Heart rate is all over he place during the rallies.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 07 October, 2016, 06:28:03 pm
The other thing is that being on liquid only diet, and having a mouth that's full of stitches, is that the weight is falling off me. I've upped my protein intake in an effort to retain lean muscle mass.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 October, 2016, 12:14:00 am
So less than a week of training, and I repeated the same workout tonight that I did last Tuesday.

Average HR for the identical workout is 7bpm lower (from 135bpm down to 128bpm).

They do say the loss of fitness from a break is initially more top-end, and that comes back fast. I might already need to raise the FTP setting in TR. Don't fancy doing another test so soon.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 October, 2016, 10:58:29 am
And again this morning, 3x12m sweet-spot workout. 149bpm average last week, now 141bpm.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 October, 2016, 11:18:55 am
Typical - as I get some training momentum going, I get a cold and have no energy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 20 October, 2016, 01:19:12 pm
AC Hackney Simulator(tm).

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5349/30330401022_934242b7fd_z.jpg)

Rolling road views of Iceland and ethereal soundtrack, courtesy Sigur Rós, hills thanks to TrainerRoad Tallac sub FTP intervals.

I need to grow my beard longer and put the fixed on the turbo for the full effect  :).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 October, 2016, 01:54:27 pm
I train in the haze of petrol fumes from my motorbike. I need to use it as an excuse to shell out on something more modern.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 November, 2016, 01:45:18 pm
Think it's time to re-test, HR has dropped substantially for same efforts.

 :hand:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 15 November, 2016, 01:41:12 pm
Week 3 of working with a coach.   A couple of conclusions so far :-

- New (magnetic) turbo is a vast improvement on the old one, but I need to play about with the resistance.
- I wasn't resting anywhere near easy enough between intervals in the past.

Overall the programme has more intensity and less volume, which I can understand.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 November, 2016, 02:15:34 pm
Interesting. I think mixing in some higher intensity work in the base phase works better for the time crunched cyclist.

My last test said 240W FTP. I hope for at least 250W tonight.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 15 November, 2016, 02:20:24 pm
Interesting. I think mixing in some higher intensity work in the base phase works better for the time crunched cyclist.

Pretty much everything is tempo or upwards, but weekend rides are 2-2.5hrs - I asked if I could ride for a bit longer when I had free time and it was OK.   Turbo sessions are all what I would call threshold efforts with some sprint-style efforts, but they're all around an hour.

I'm unlikely to race until May so plenty of time to increase workload.   I've just been sent next week's plan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 15 November, 2016, 08:29:23 pm
Quote
I've just been sent next week's plan.
Did you get that slightly sick feeling and wondered why did I sign up with a coach?

I am now 3 months in and loving every minute( except in the actual training, obviously).  I am sure i am getting Stockholm syndrome.  I feel bad if i cannot do my workout in the morning before work and wait on tenterhooks for the feedback about how I have done.  Then the tough messages when i spend too much time in Zone 3 on my weekend rides!  "Behave and do as you are told!"
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 15 November, 2016, 08:47:12 pm
For various reasons I haven't been on the road at all this month. 4-5 one hour turbo interval sessions per week though and I am already back to my February power levels so pleased with progress. Every session takes me to the edge and I can't do more than two days in a row.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 November, 2016, 09:32:21 pm
From 241-255 w in 6 weeks. I guessed 250+ so pleased.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 15 November, 2016, 09:33:06 pm
Quote
I've just been sent next week's plan.
Did you get that slightly sick feeling and wondered why did I sign up with a coach?


It's still early days, but I have been managing so far.   He has upped the workload pretty quickly, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 November, 2016, 04:35:38 pm
This week since the test on Tuesday has been a bit of a struggle. Think it took a lot out of me, and with being busy at work doing a 90m endurance/tempo session, 1h sweet spot session on Thursday I was very tired yesterday. Managed on the water rowing session but ditched 3x20 sweet spot, had a lie in today then did it. Today was supposed to 3h endurance. The rowing yesterday can count for some of that. So I might try to do a 1h endurance session while dinner is in the oven.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 20 November, 2016, 04:47:58 pm
Brilliant session on Thursday 20min climbing intervals with max power 30 second sprints at the end.  Friday cannot get out of bed with some virus, yesterday still very weak.  35 minutes of temp today just to keep things ticking over and then back to it tomorrow.  Was at the end of a hard week so hopefully will not have lost too much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 November, 2016, 04:55:10 pm
Bummer, GWS. I had a whole week of training lost to lurgy last month. It's annoying as it disrupts momentum.

However my test FTP score is higher than I had 11 months ago, so it's looking promising for going into next season stronger.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 21 November, 2016, 10:40:09 pm
A great recovery.  Repeated a session from 3 weeks ago and NP for the session had gone up by 22W and I got a trainerroad badge for my 60 minute power.  Well pleased.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 November, 2016, 12:41:51 pm
Quote
I've just been sent next week's plan.
Did you get that slightly sick feeling and wondered why did I sign up with a coach?

"Next week.   Up a bit again."   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 November, 2016, 12:58:57 pm
Ah, coaches. Rowing club, several intervals in to some ridiculous workout:

"Come on Proven, get that pace back below 2:00, I know you can do better than that!"
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 November, 2016, 01:51:11 pm
Ah, coaches. Rowing club, several intervals in to some ridiculous workout:

"Come on Proven, get that pace back below 2:00, I know you can do better than that!"

To be fair this bloke seems remarkably sensible and the workouts have been challenging, but not killers.    However I am only in week 4 and target races don't start until May/June.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 November, 2016, 03:34:31 pm
I just think I am such a disappointment to my coach.  I try to do everything he says but I get muscle pain and just cannot turn off my "central governor".  Trying for a TSS of over 600 this week but only managed 85 in todays work out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 23 November, 2016, 04:30:55 pm
600?  :o

Jeez - you guys seem to be going at it pretty hard, considering it's only November. I'm barely ticking over with hours of base work.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 November, 2016, 05:13:35 pm
My HRtss for a 200k was about 800. Probably overestimated.

TrainerRoad high volume is around 400/week. I rarely do 100%. Older riders may not be able to handle as much TSS as younger. I managed total including rowing of around 400 last week and am pretty tired.

How long was this workout that gave a TSS of 85? Is your FTP measured accurately. I did 1h yesterday which was TSS of 67. Not a trivial workout.

As for the muscle pain, if doing efforts near or above FTP you get that. The longer the effort the more it builds. Are you doing too much threshold work too soon?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 23 November, 2016, 06:02:26 pm
TSS for the last 7 days is 520.  I hate looking at my CTL, as it's dropped so much since the summer I feel sad.

Did a sprint workout from Today's Plan (signed up for a year - much prefer it to Training Peaks - it actually gives you the workouts for whatever platform you want, not just tell you what TSS to aim for and what filters to use). Did 2*15m SST at 65rpm (hate low rpm work) then 4*10s 715w. That burnt the dust off the Neo!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 November, 2016, 06:24:14 pm
715W is pretty good.  I can only hit that for a couple of seconds.


I will hit the 600TSS for the week but it will include about 240 for my Sunday ride.  I have 80km and 1550m of climb planned on all my favourite hills.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 November, 2016, 07:01:47 pm
I managed 782W for 10s on the Kernow 600k last year allegedly.  Maybe this is why I DNFed.

My highest recently recorded power is 1295W from last year for a couple of seconds. Steep hill start on fixed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 November, 2016, 08:37:16 pm
Don't really know my TSS, but I'm doing 15hrs a week of varying intensities.

I saw Adam Topham* quoted as clicking around 700 TSS a week for 12hrs training.   




*multi BBAR winner
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 23 November, 2016, 09:03:13 pm
Not all TSS are created equal though, I was a LOT faster this year on half the CTL as last year, all because I did a lot of turbo sessions and very few audax.

In this morning's session I managed to record an impossible 115TSS, but I always manage to hit an IF>1 for this 60:60 session whereas it's all my longer interval sessions match FTP expectations more accurately (although I have improved 5/6W since the last test probably). https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4511562-ak-billat-60-60 (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4511562-ak-billat-60-60) I did feel halfway through interval #3 that there was no way I would be able to finish the the first block of 6 but I use the Adam Topham principle and just think one minute at a time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 November, 2016, 10:42:11 pm
I've found Billatts such as TR's Gendarme relatively easy.

As for quality, I agree you get far more bang per buck from trainer/turbo time than time on the road. Which means I had higher FTP and better fat burning from a much lower time commitment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 24 November, 2016, 07:28:12 am
I've found Billatts such as TR's Gendarme relatively easy.

Yes, I found the 30:30 version pretty pointless on a bike. Ideas of course developed for runners rather than cyclists though. The 60:60 session works really well for me as long as I push a higher power than the paper suggests. I do this session once a week and the classic 5x3' Billat's once a week too, my other regular session is a Seiler 4x8'.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 November, 2016, 10:28:43 am
I've found Billatts such as TR's Gendarme relatively easy.

Yes, I found the 30:30 version pretty pointless on a bike. Ideas of course developed for runners rather than cyclists though. The 60:60 session works really well for me as long as I push a higher power than the paper suggests. I do this session once a week and the classic 5x3' Billat's once a week too, my other regular session is a Seiler 4x8'.

50:50 in Ansel Adams seems to be quite punishing for me and more like where I should be. 3x12 of 50:50 at 135% FTP. I can usually barely manage it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 November, 2016, 08:57:09 pm
Just did Solomons. Always surprised to finish on target.  :thumbsup: A few more seconds on the last interval would have defeated me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 25 November, 2016, 06:16:49 am
Just did Solomons. Always surprised to finish on target.  :thumbsup: A few more seconds on the last interval would have defeated me.

I like the look of that one! I usually only have time for one hour sessions midweek but aim to do a 90' one at the weekend so may try this on Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 27 November, 2016, 10:25:20 am
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161127/391aad84af52481b6350826a80cf97d7.jpg)

That's an *anaerobic capacity workout" from today's plan, adjusted to extend endurance to make room for a pub lunch. The 5 x FTPX1.4 for 1m30s were challenging, like trying to follow someone stronger bridging a gap (specifically a chap called Mel Hartley from Condor, who despite having more than 10 years on me can remove my legs and batter me with them at will). However, my TSS came out 30% higher than estimated, whereas usually it's bang on. That's because I'm shit at anaerobic stuff, right? Maybe a bit of cardiac drift in the second endurance interval too I guess?

All this VO2 and anaerobic stuff is new to me. I think it was because in the today's plan survey they do before building a plan admitted I'm shit at keeping on the back of bunch accelerations.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 27 November, 2016, 11:11:27 am
Very nice.

I did my endurance workout yesterday, so 64km and 1200m of climb with VO2 max efforts going over the tops.  Seriously????  The VO2max efforts only happened in the last 15km and were definitely sub par.

TSS for the ride was 290 and another 89 today gives me 683 for the week.  Not bad for a 58 year old.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 November, 2016, 09:38:32 pm
I went out with two local riders today. They met up with me in the square having already done 10 miles. Where's I only had two miles before we climbed up to Longbottom. Got my HR to 190 by the top. Never done that climb before - now I know why. The Sunday ride is meant to be 3h of much easier riding. In the end I had 250 TSS from 2h30 moving time. So after a coffee back home I did 1h30 on the KickR for 310 TSS of the day.

628 for the week between cycling and rowing. Could be higher for the next week as Saturday will most likely exceed that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 27 November, 2016, 09:57:55 pm
310 in a single day is seriously impressive. I think I would probably be dead to do 250 in 2.5 hours.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 November, 2016, 02:25:03 pm
310 in a single day is seriously impressive. I think I would probably be dead to do 250 in 2.5 hours.

Hmm. My TSS was from HR in this case. And I was on fixed which probably increases HR relative to power on the harder climbs.

It's interesting to compare the same workout last night (Carillon) with the same for January. Nearly identical power output and 7bpm lower mean HR and >10bpm lower max HR. I think that means I'm ahead of last year. I've been following the plan a lot more consistently and it's paying off.

Supposed to be doing a rowing fitness test this week. Unfortunately it's a test I've never done before so tricky to pace.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 November, 2016, 02:37:14 pm
I was surprised to lean that an adaptation week doesn't, in fact, mean riding gently to the café.   Balls.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 30 November, 2016, 04:22:27 pm
I know what you mean.  I thought a rest week was that - a "rest week". Apparently not.  Just slightly less than last week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 November, 2016, 04:28:25 pm
Next week is supposed to be recovery week for me - 328 TSS over 7h.

Except I'm riding a 200k on Saturday which is going to be 8h+ riding time and some ridiculous TSS.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 30 November, 2016, 10:54:14 pm
Very nice.

I did my endurance workout yesterday, so 64km and 1200m of climb with VO2 max efforts going over the tops.  Seriously????  The VO2max efforts only happened in the last 15km and were definitely sub par.

TSS for the ride was 290 and another 89 today gives me 683 for the week.  Not bad for a 58 year old.

If you want to test out your endurance try a de-coupling test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 01 December, 2016, 08:55:41 am
LMT, I might wait a while for that as I saw a worthwhile improvement in FTP last night but of course that means the next few weeks will be harder again!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 04 December, 2016, 06:21:17 pm
Intense pain in knee halfway through last interval in a 4x8' Seiler set yesterday. Had to keep the cadence low (80-85 rather than 95-100) for today's 4x15' sweetspot session. Doc had said training couldn't make any it worse than it was apparently so I ignore the pain and carry on...

It's going to be 10-11 weeks before I see the consultant, then it'll be an MRI followed by hopefully a general clean up of all the crap swilling about in the joint.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 04 December, 2016, 06:28:36 pm
Very nice.

I did my endurance workout yesterday, so 64km and 1200m of climb with VO2 max efforts going over the tops.  Seriously????  The VO2max efforts only happened in the last 15km and were definitely sub par.

TSS for the ride was 290 and another 89 today gives me 683 for the week.  Not bad for a 58 year old.

Agreed - this week was 640, and I know it, and you have 14yrs on me. The next 4 weeks are 500, 590, 640 (Xmas week), then 480 followed blood lactate testing on the Tuesday of the following week. Will be interesting to see if there's been an improvement.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 05 December, 2016, 02:25:36 pm
Last week was low as I bailed on the long ride.  Legs were still in bed when I was 20km up the road so I turned round and came home.  Still 500 for the week and a new FTP set almost by accident.  Doing a 20,1520 min pyramid and felt really good so just pushed on. Low and behold FTP up by 10.

Rest week this week then a couple of hard weeks before Christmas. Then 10 days off work at home in January for some 2 hour sessions on the turbo!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 December, 2016, 09:58:38 pm
Turbo work last Tuesday left me pretty wiped out.   Spent a couple of days thinking I was coming down with something, but I eventually thought it might just have been the cold in the garage.   I was supposed to be adapting from then anyway so backed off and tried to eat properly.   Felt good so did the planned road session yesterday and now feel battered.   Will see how turboing goes Tue/Thu as I'm now building again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 07 December, 2016, 02:27:17 pm
So following the increase in FTP I had two hard sessions last night and this morning at the new levels.

first the TSS goes down when FTP goes up!  I now have to work even harder!

Second, I thought last week that my legs were feeling good and I must be getting fitter as they didn't hurt after a session.  Guess what, this week they hurt again!

I know you all know this but I just felt like a man rant!  Bit like man flu probably.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 December, 2016, 02:42:02 pm
Yes. Cycling doesn't get easier you only get faster.

I had a ramp test last year and it came out at 280W. That was too high and it made some workouts impossible. Problem is ramp test being in 20W increments. FTP was probably around 270. A month later 2x8m test gave 275W which was more reasonable.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 07 December, 2016, 03:46:21 pm
280W is high end aspirational for me at the moment.  Training peaks gave me 211 but I paced it really badly so I have been doing trainerroad with FTP set at 225W.  I am managing the threshold efforts (6 intervals of 5 minutes at FTP with 3 minute recovery and 5 max sprints for 10 seconds with 50 second recovery) with a decoupling of around 3% in the intervals.

last night was 15 minute efforts at FTP which gave a significantly higher Pw:HR of almost 7% in the last interval.

overall I think I am on track and looking forward to seeing what I can achieve.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 13 December, 2016, 06:54:39 pm
solid session on sunday. 88km at 25kph average with 70% of the time in Zone 2 HR.  Yesterday was 20,15,10 at FTP with recovery which i barely managed and then tonight was 8 x1minute sprint intervals with 3 minute recovery.  It was a shambles.  Only managed a TSS of 72 for the 50 minutes.  Thankfully sports massage now and then a rest day tomorrow 

.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 December, 2016, 09:17:35 pm
I had a recovery week after the 200k and today did FTP test. 266W, up 11W in exactly 4 weeks. Pleased with that progress and if this continues will be approaching PB by February.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 13 December, 2016, 10:00:29 pm
Quote
266W, up 11W in exactly 4 weeks.
Congratulations
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 December, 2016, 11:14:16 am
Quote
266W, up 11W in exactly 4 weeks.
Congratulations

Hmm, thanks.

I think one of the things I've learned from these tests is that to an extent it's about knowing that you really can keep going when everything is telling you to stop; at the start of the second interval my legs were really not happy with me, but I pushed through it, and actually felt better at the 4 minute point than after 1 minute. That had changed by the end, though. In the end I averaged 296W for the first 8-minute effort and 295W for the second, which suggests pacing is much better than it used to be. In my best result, from May, it was 311W in the first and 304W in the second, as I cracked a bit with about 2 minutes to go.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: teethgrinder on 14 December, 2016, 11:54:56 am
600?  :o

Jeez - you guys seem to be going at it pretty hard, considering it's only November. I'm barely ticking over with hours of base work.

Just for anyone's interest, my average for the month record was about 3100.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 December, 2016, 12:18:10 pm
 :o

Well, I had a look at Sweet Spot Base II high volume, it's an average of 8.8 hours/week with an average weekly TSS of 500.

Fitting that around rowing training will be the main challenge. I've got to do 1.5h today and to be honest that test yesterday has taken a lot out of me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 14 December, 2016, 08:41:21 pm
Quote
my average for the month record was about 3100

You know nobody likes a show off?   :) :)  Does put us in the shade somewhat.  Out of interest what are doing in your training now in terms of TSS and FTP?  I understand you have a superb aerobic engine with a very low HR?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 15 December, 2016, 07:33:30 pm
Hard week at work and pretty stressed so nice to get on the trainer after a rest day yesterday.  2 x20 min intervals at 95% 0f FTP was pretty good with 3 x1 minute sprint intervals.  Less stressed now!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 17 December, 2016, 12:48:38 am
Had a terrible night's sleep on Wednesday, followed by a busy day and an evening of the kids being arses. I didn't manage to get on the turbo until late. My workout was 2 x 30m at 95% FTP. I couldn't face the second block.

I was going to tag it on to a 2x12m at 88% ftp session today, but couldn't face it, as I know I have a TSS 165 tempo session on sunday with 4 x 20m at 60rpm (I spin at 97-105 - the more watts required, the more I'll spin). It'll be deth.

What do you guys do when you don't complete a session? I am aware, there's a paper out there that says cyclists are terrors for making hard days too easy and easy days too hard. By catching up, I think I'll be making things worse, when I need that rest day to stand a chance of making it through Sunday's horror show.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 December, 2016, 01:02:35 am
I try not to sweat missing the odd session. If it becomes a habit then it needs addressing. If you're hitting 90% of target then no real issue. Life gets in the way.

2x30m at 95% FTP is hard. On Thursday I did 3x20 at 85%. Should have been on Wednesday but I was too busy with cooking. I couldn't do that after a big meal anyway. So I pushed it by one day. I'm busy tomorrow and Sunday as well then we're away for a week from Tuesday so what I'm going to try to do is fit as much as possible in over the next few days (kind of a mini training camp) with the knowledge that I'll have a week off.

Your plan seems quite tough for this stage of the season. Are you becoming over trained? I got a little freaked at the volume of Sweet Spot Base II in TR with a peak of 9h45 in week 5 and training 6 days a week.

My plan is to do a long endurance session tomorrow, maybe nothing on Sunday and a tough vo2max workout on Monday before my week off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 17 December, 2016, 06:46:30 am
I've got follow-up blood lactate testing in January, so we'll see. TSB is only just negative 30 day ramp rate is about 4. All looks sensible. Still, it's off the back of training with an inflated FTP, so it will look easier in the numbers than it is the in legs, I think.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 17 December, 2016, 05:12:47 pm
Similar feeling re training last 3 days. Thursday was good and solid. Friday was rubbish.
Today should have been 3.5 hours long endurance. Out at 6:45  but back in an hour as body not right. Hard week at work and on the bike meant that a day in front of the fire was needed.

Just over 400TSS for the week plus work is enough for now.

I wonder in this mild weather if there are some low grade viral things on the go?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 December, 2016, 05:39:47 pm
It's a time of year when energy levels are lower and there are a lot of things getting in the way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 17 December, 2016, 05:46:40 pm
It's a time of year when energy levels are lower and there are a lot of things getting in the way.

Funny you should mention that. I've been playing with an app called "Exist" (https://exist.io) which pulls in data from other apps and tries to make correlations between trends. One of the most striking things I've noticed is a steady increase in the amount of sleep I've been getting every night; it tracks the decline in daylight perfectly, since September right through to this week. I haven't made any conscious efforts to get more sleep - it's just happened. It'll be interesting to see if the reverse happens as the days lengthen again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 17 December, 2016, 06:43:00 pm

I wonder in this mild weather if there are some low grade viral things on the go?

This, for me. Was sneezed over by half my colleagues on thursday, to the point where I lost my temper with one. Consultant saw me yesterday - upped my inhaled steroids, made noises about putting me on a 13th (really) med, but I said wait and see. In return, I have to go back in 6 weeks to make sure I'm okay, promise to phlegm in a pot, and eat gaviscon advance after every meal. Such fun.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 December, 2016, 07:57:18 pm
I had some issues recently with my Tue turbo session which is the hardest 75mins I do each week.   I often find I haven't recovered from my Sunday long ride and I had issues with pacing them and started too hard.  I backed off 2 weeks back but completed the session.   General feedback from coach and an article a marathon runner mate of mine sent me was to still complete the session but back off if you have to.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 17 December, 2016, 08:55:56 pm
Quote
but back off if you have to

I keep being told this by my coach as well.

I find that this can be difficult on the Neo as if I start to drop my cadence the resistance goes up to keep the same power output.  I find now that for the 1 minute sessions I switch to resistance mode which allows me to change cadence, etc as i feel what my legs can give.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 17 December, 2016, 09:05:29 pm
4x8' on Tues, 5x3' on Wed, both witn average interval power PBs, then 2 days off due to work commitments followed by a hilly 50 mile Z3 ride today and strava PBs up all four of the big hills without trying that hard. Things are going well :-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 December, 2016, 09:38:26 pm
Quote
but back off if you have to

I keep being told this by my coach as well.

I find that this can be difficult on the Neo as if I start to drop my cadence the resistance goes up to keep the same power output.  I find now that for the 1 minute sessions I switch to resistance mode which allows me to change cadence, etc as i feel what my legs can give.

TrainerRoad often suggest if you're struggling to complete an interval on target to back pedal for 10s or so. Then go again. Backing off on erg mode doesn't work as you've discovered and you just get bogged down.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 December, 2016, 10:17:44 pm
Quote
but back off if you have to

I keep being told this by my coach as well.

I find that this can be difficult on the Neo as if I start to drop my cadence the resistance goes up to keep the same power output.  I find now that for the 1 minute sessions I switch to resistance mode which allows me to change cadence, etc as i feel what my legs can give.

I'm working with speed/cadence (bike is fixed and I've left the same gear on) on a basic magnetic turbo.   I now know what cadence I can do by each resistance setting, but can back off a little if it feels too hard.   On the bad session I had a couple of weeks back my average cadence dropped from about 115rpm to 110 by the last one and my HR was way higher than it had been previously.  This week's session I did the first interval averaging 110 but was hitting 114rpm and pushing on in the last interval.  My HR was not as high as the previous week so I expect I was better rested and paced the efforts properly.

Each week the length of the intervals goes up and recovery goes down but I have had to move the resistance setting up in order to stop from spinning out.   I expect this means that my power output has gone up, but I had a long break after my last TT so was starting from a lower base.   The signs are encouraging, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 18 December, 2016, 10:29:58 am
long steady distance on friday - 320km, 22kph, 96w, 66rpm, 110bpm, 318tss - on a tt bike which is not very suitable for such riding. i was wearing a cap with a peak, which made me raise my head more to see where i'm going, now my neck hurts. used three bread rolls (w/ butter, mozzarella ant tomato) and four bananas for the fuel and 1l of drink.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: teethgrinder on 19 December, 2016, 12:03:54 pm

You know nobody likes a show off?   :) :)  Does put us in the shade somewhat.  Out of interest what are doing in your training now in terms of TSS and FTP?  I understand you have a superb aerobic engine with a very low HR?
[/quote]

Last weeks TSS was just over 1400
It's the longer rides that bump it up a bit. The 12 hour ride yesterday was about 450.
Doing some strength and speed stuff. Hill repeats with a low cadence at 95-100% FTP
4x30 minute intervals of 60-70rpm at 85-90% FTP
30 mins at 90-95rpm 80-85% but spinning up to 110-120rpm for 10 secs every 3 minutes (I usually go to about 140-150) Then 3x20mins at 95-105rpm at 85-90% FTP.
I prefer the strength stuff on the road to the turbo. Turbo gets a lower TSS score but I think it's harder.

It'll be a bit more this week so my TSS should be over 1500. It was at around 2000 for a few weeks before I went for the month.

My HR is low. Maximum in my last test was 168. I got it to 175 in 2013. I think the year record attempt lowered my MHR.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 19 December, 2016, 01:04:50 pm
Surprisingly similar to the FTP raising plan Today's Plan has me on, albeit very different volumes. This week is a 620tss one before a recovery week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 20 December, 2016, 10:05:46 pm
Hero to Zero!

Last night was superb, great session exceeded all my goals and set best 30second power and 90 minute power.  Tonight could hardly get the legs to move.  Like pedalling through treacle.  finished 3 out of 4 10 minute intervals at 80% of planned and called it a day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 20 December, 2016, 10:28:21 pm
First 3 intervals tonight went OK but sat up for the last 2, rather than using the TT position.

Annoyingly when spinning at 110rpm + the turbo started to walk.   I had to stop a couple of times and put the front wheel back into the holder.   I was better off when I just used an Argos catalogue.   Should probably put the turbo matt back down.   

Not going to drop much next 2 weeks so should carry through quite nicely.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 20 December, 2016, 10:54:09 pm
Just did 2 sets of 20 x 15sec at 140%FTP with 15 secs rest, each bookended by 5m SST. The 10th-15th of the second block were horrible until I found a happy place and was able to hide from how horrible it felt. The last 5 were almost euphoric.

Legs will be sore in the morning, but it's a rest day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 December, 2016, 11:27:21 pm
Last night was last TR session for a week as we're away. As I'd missed Saturday and Sunday training I picked my go-to session for a beasting (Solomons). 6x3m:3r at 115% FTP with a 12m tempo block the 4x2m:4r at 130%. This is intended to be a tough challenge to complete and it is. This was my second highest NP for this workout and I can feel it today particularly after late night then up for a 7:10 flight. And we have walked >5 miles today.

I've put in the next two weeks of the plan into TrainingPeaks and the drop in CTL appears significant - and I won't be back to where I'm at today until three weeks from now. I have trainers with me, however, and my TickrX, so might get a couple of runs in. It was really quite warm today so going for a run a few times this week is do-able.

There is a gym and getting on a rowing machine would help with maintenance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: teethgrinder on 22 December, 2016, 08:38:33 am
Surprisingly similar to the FTP raising plan Today's Plan has me on, albeit very different volumes. This week is a 620tss one before a recovery week.

I'm not sure how good the TSS score is for how hard a week of training is. I got about 160 for my turbo session yesterday. I found that harder than doing longer rides that score a lot more on the TSS scale. Maybe it's because I'm used to doing the long rides and long rides feel short to me. I think that 4 of those turbo sessions a week would be enough for me!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 22 December, 2016, 08:53:20 am
Yes, I don't think all TSS are equal. I've got a 4*15m at "threshold" 95%FTP due today, which is estimated at 117TSS, but I looked ahead to the Mere 200, and it's estimated that at nearly 700TSS. I'd feel fine the day after 200, but I'm sure I'll feel today's efforts tomorrow.

I'm sure these numbers are just there to help us sense when we're working harder / easing off. To that extent, they are useful to me - keeping an eye on ramp rate, looking ahead and fitting training around other commitments.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 22 December, 2016, 09:57:29 am
Interesting regarding the TSS.  I do a 3.5 hour zone 2HR ride on Sunday which will regularly get me 250 of TSS but is as you say a lot easier than the turbo rides in the week which get me a much lower TSS.  I wonder how you could model that better?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 22 December, 2016, 10:07:12 am
I'm only doing 2 turbo sessions a week at the moment, but I find these way harder than any of my long road rides.

One of the biggest challenges of the last few years has been learning how to push myself harder for shorter periods of time.   Good to see everyone else with a similar background has the same issues.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 December, 2016, 11:04:59 am
Generally the higher intensity work needs more recovery. However I feel far more knackered the day after a 200k than after a 90 minute vo2max workout I can barely finish.

As you add more TSS the intensity has to drop or you face burn out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 22 December, 2016, 12:07:26 pm
The difference between an aerobic effort and an anaerobic effort...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 December, 2016, 11:19:23 am
Another 140 of TSS today.  With a bit of luck and pushing hard I can hit 2000 for the month which would be an all time high.  Probably means doing the long ride on 31 December rather than 1 January.

CTL also a lifetime high of 64.2.

Really chuffed with my Autumn training. However I am currently refusing to be near my wife or kiss her as she has a cold.  Oh, the sacrifices I make as an athlete ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 23 December, 2016, 12:54:17 pm
Yesterday was a 4 x 15m at 95%FTP, with some bits either side, making TSS of 126.

Last thing I did last night was swap my workouts for today, as there's no way I'd do a VO2 intermittent session properly. Instead, I'm doing "aerobic development + power starts".

First thing I did this morning (before I put the kettle on even) was get the foam roller out. Jeeze, I am feeling this week.

What's nice is seeing the effects physically. My body fat is down (between 6 & 7%), despite  being 2kg heavier than usual, and 6kg heavier than the summer. Can see it in the veins on my leg, which are now prominent up into my thighs. I feel much less fragile at 71kg than at 65kg!

@chrisbainbridge - that's life for me with bronchiectasis. I bollocked a colleague and ended up leaving a meeting when I realised that he wasn't covering his mouth as he coughed next to me repeatedly, then the people in front and behind started. I carry alcohol gel everywhere, and my kids are well trained to use it all the time, and sneeze in to their elbows.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 23 December, 2016, 01:12:29 pm
it feels good to be at my summer weight right now, 67kg, 10.3% body fat, 3% visceral fat ( <- is this a part of body fat or extra?). rapha500 starts tomorrow which will kickstart base training for the next year. indoor training will probably be on the rollers as (for me) the turbo kills all the positive emotions associated with cycling..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 December, 2016, 02:15:06 pm
Quote
the turbo kills all the positive emotions associated with cycling

I empathise with this.  I loved my commuting in the dark of winter BUT I am 58 and have some things I want to do  BCM, LEL, a few more long distance rides, a Diagonale, and I want to be fitter.  So I have given up commuting at the moment and only ride at the weekend and even then it is a training ride with specific goals.

I will probably aim for a zone 1 commute ride in the New Year as well as the turbo to keep my head in a right place.  I am fortunate that my minimum distance is only 7.5km and can be done in Zone 1 quite happily (and is faster than car in the rush hour).

Thank you all for the support over the last few months on this board as I have got into training.  Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 23 December, 2016, 02:49:30 pm
the turbo kills all the positive emotions associated with cycling..

I think I share some of my autistic son's preference for structure and predictability. I want to see modifications in my behaviour lead to measurable outcomes. The turbo lets me control and quantify the modifications to my behaviour, and measure the outcomes (plus I'm getting regular blood lactate testing).

I actually like riding on Zwift too. Even before I got a fancy PC and a big screen, I found the environment engaging. I did a 200 on it back when I had it running on a laptop. This time of year, I get from bed to spinning in 30 mins including a couple of cups of tea and a snack. No faffing with cold / wet weather gear. I get the fake warmth of the sunlight effects on screen, and spotify in my ears. I get regular tows, and there are usually around a 1000 other cyclists zooming around. When I'm finished, I can get some food before jumping in a shower without worrying about hypothermia! I'm about to do an hour or so. Looking out the window, Zwift looks much more appealing that the high winds and pelting rain I can see.

Don't get me wrong - there's a satisfaction in putting on the right clothes and getting on the right bike and knocking out some winter miles. However, for me, I ended up just surviving my commute and doing 100km tempo every Sunday, desperately trying to stay warm. Spending last winter on Zwift was a revelation.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 December, 2016, 03:16:18 pm
DrMekon, that is really interesting.  I had not joined Zwift as I did not need another indoor system but looking at the weather front coming in and the wind I do not fancy 3.5 hours on any road near me, especially with Christmas car drivers.  I may give it a shot.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 23 December, 2016, 05:21:04 pm
i guess it depends what one wants out of cycling - fitness, achieving a particular goal, freedom, meditation, social interaction, means of transportation etc.

as turbo trainer doesn't really serve my future goals i struggle to find the motivation to actually use it, i need to shift my mind and convince myself that the pain, discomfort and boredom are worthwhile (http://qz.com/584874/you-probably-know-to-ask-yourself-what-do-i-want-heres-a-way-better-question/?bul=2&&utm_source=fb1221_9).

i don't need to convince myself that it's a good idea to be out cycling in wind and sometimes rain - it's just a part of what i enjoy doing anyway (and i wouldn't want my every ride to be in sunshine and with a tailwind).

really looking forward to tomorrow's xmas social ride, everyone riding real bikes, on real roads, in real wind, chatting and interacting with each other in real time, eye contact, smiles - it is a completely different experience from spending 90 fitness-efficient minutes doing interval blocks on a turbo*..

*i'll get round to using it, some day :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 23 December, 2016, 09:12:18 pm
DrMekon, that is really interesting.  I had not joined Zwift as I did not need another indoor system but looking at the weather front coming in and the wind I do not fancy 3.5 hours on any road near me, especially with Christmas car drivers.  I may give it a shot.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161223/053dd055142e6e2543cbfa8b9944e7ba.jpg)

Just got to keep an eye out for virtual transport secretaries
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 24 December, 2016, 11:44:13 am
I'm spending less hours on the turbo this Winter, but at a higher intensity.   My commute is now done at a higher intensity some days and recovery on others.   Overall I can handle the current load.   This sort of training is a necessity for next year's goals which are all based around TTs.   I'm not sure I could deal with it if I were building towards a long audax where speed is less important for me.

I'm weighing in at 10 stone at the minute which I don't think I've been near since my teens.

I hope this is all worth it.   If I hit all the goals I went through with my coach I'll look for something away from the TT world in 2018.

Hope everybody has a good break.   I did 2hrs tempo first thing, will do the same Boxing Day but rest up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 24 December, 2016, 06:20:42 pm
In the end I did an hour outside in the afternoon.  Just riding some of my favourite hills which got my total TSS for the week to 540 which is just slightly above average for me.  Next week I am planning to do a lot of real work.  (Family and father in law go home)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 24 December, 2016, 06:43:36 pm
Looks like it's going to be 3 weeks of nothing instead of loads of miles this holiday as I recover from broken ribs  >:(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 December, 2016, 07:00:59 pm
Training properly to resume on 27th. CTL has dropped to 58 but am doing a bit of running to minimise the loss while away.

This time last year CTL was 31 so things are better than last year. I can't remember why but I didn't train much in the second half of January so my CTL was down to 28 then. Aiming to be well ahead of there.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 24 December, 2016, 07:36:47 pm
I think I grok both sides of this. If I had never ridden a real bike - lets say I was a gym bunny who got really into using an exercise bike - then I would follow the science/numbers approach and probably get a lot out of that. (and I do 'leverage' a bit of science-n-numbers in my riding)

But having enjoyed "real" cycling - since a wee bairn - I can safely say I get way more out of it than I ever would in the gym.

If some sort of poor health or injury ever gets me off the roads/trails, I reserve the right to become a Zwift evangelist!

Just to say, I'm not a side of this. For me Zwift / turbo is ace for training. Real cycling, it isn't. You wouldn't go for a bimble around Watopia, no matter how fancy your graphics card. Before I got knocked off, I hadn't touched the turbo since spring. However, my head is pretty messed from my RTA up at the mo', and I can't face playing with traffic. Combine that with Yorkshire weather, and I'm not cycling at the mo - I'm just training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 26 December, 2016, 09:40:18 pm
Well i should have done 8x10 at TT pace but it did not happen today.  mental reaction to a Great christmas after a lot of worry about family arguments, etc lead to a complete shut down of systems today.  Normal service will resume tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 26 December, 2016, 10:49:51 pm
did 6 × 7min intervals on tt bike outside, lovely sunshine today. legs still feel shortage of blood after donation last week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 December, 2016, 02:42:01 pm
Back to it yesterday with 3x12 sweet spot and today 3x20 sweet spot (lower - 85% FTP). It was harder work than the same workout two weeks ago after a week's break. I've gone back one week in the programme to allow for the break.

Goal is 300W FTP by summer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 28 December, 2016, 06:20:42 pm
What do people do about weight training.

I am not talking about massive deadlifts, etc but rather some targeted training.  In past years I have done single leg squats and lunges with a 20kg weight vest.  I have done these instead of a bike session when I was training myself (and you know what an idiot trainer he was).

I would still like to do some sessions as I think they are helpful.  My coach suggested perhaps doing them on a rest day but I think he was mixing them up with a Pilates session(stretching and core) I do on a rest day.

I wondered about adding them in as an extra session just before a rest day.

Any thoughts?

Thank you
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 December, 2016, 06:44:00 pm
Topical for me as I'm trying to add in some weight training. Especially for us older cyclists (40+) it has health benefits to avoiding or at least slowing the age related decline in muscle mass.

My plan is to keep weight training on non rest days for the simple reason that I believe in the view that rest days should be rest days. In order to keep it manageable I'll be doing a three day split which I've worked with before i.e. push, pull, legs/shoulders, and abs/core which can be done on any of the three days. Though the legs day includes shoulder which is a mixture of push and pull.

I'm currently following a 6 days per week cycling plan which has a full rest day on Monday and the easiest non-rest day is Friday. So I could choose to aim to make Friday the legs day then the other days which are not touching legs on harder days.

There is the case often put that you shouldn't do weights and cardio on the same day. However I was googling earlier and found this. http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-tips/should-you-do-weight-training-cardio-same-day - title of the paper is "Concurrent resistance and aerobic exercise stimulates both myofibrillar and mitochondrial protein synthesis in sedentary middle-aged men."

As for what exercises - main legs will be squat, main pulling exercise is deadlift and main pushing bench press. I have noticed a benefit in terms of explosive power from doing this in the past. Downside is increased weight. However low normal BMI is not lowest risk group in older people so it might be a good thing.

Next gym visit will be Friday for legs/shoulders/core day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 28 December, 2016, 07:42:11 pm
thanks Simon

That is a great help.  I will point my coach to this.

Chris
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 29 December, 2016, 02:26:12 am
This is a good book to help with planning an effective weight training programme. https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Periodization-Training-Sports-Tudor-Bompa/1450469434/ref=pd_sim_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8D2N6QG8X0AJQ5SDX1AQ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Periodization-Training-Sports-Tudor-Bompa/1450469434/ref=pd_sim_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8D2N6QG8X0AJQ5SDX1AQ)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 31 December, 2016, 12:12:26 pm
good weights session yesterday morning. squats, lunges and some Pilates exercises.  I know it was good as this morning my gluten are really sore.  Also inner thigh muscles as well.  I think this is from doing the single leg squats and sliding lunges which need a larger balance element than double leg squats.

Then developed headache, and runny nose which put paid to the turbo session in the afternoon.  Walk to Breakfast and back for 2 hours gives me a total TSS of 2006 for the month which is my highest ever.

Happy and healthy New Year to you all and look forward to meeting some of you on rides in 2017.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 31 December, 2016, 01:04:09 pm
three rides this week to complete the festive500 challenge and a short run totaling in 622 tss. now - how to carry this momentum into the new year?! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 31 December, 2016, 01:56:33 pm
Just back from a rowing water session, legs could feel the last few days.

Going to try to do a TR session later but the app auto updated last night and seems to have lost the sweet spot and traditional base plans. The top level menu is there but all the fields say "infinity" and diving in to select a workout => crash.

Ah the joy of auto update being turned on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 31 December, 2016, 02:12:16 pm
In and out of thinking I've been coming down with the family bug this week.   Shuffled turbo sessions around a bit.   4hrs on the road this morning but couldn't get my HR where I wanted it to be.   Still I covered slightly more distance than I did on the same ride 3 weeks ago and the legs can feel it.

I finish the year with my weight where it needs to be and seem to be making gains.   Day off tomorrow and back on it from Monday.   Hopefully all the TT dates will be published soon and I can write a proper plan out.

Happy New Year.


Rob

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 31 December, 2016, 02:24:14 pm
Got TR working again by deleting and reinstalling the app which resynced everything cleanly.

The new version has the biggest missing feature I've wanted which is tracking progress through a training plan. It always seemed like an odd omission.

I'm part way into the plan already but according to the documentation you can assign rides you've already completed to your progress.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 January, 2017, 03:44:07 pm
Because of Zwift fail yesterday TSS is off target. So I found a nasty 90m workout to do at lunch time. Glacier - 5x2m, 5x1m, 5x30s. These were at respectively 130, 150 and 180% FTP.

I think the easiest to finish were the final set. Pretty brutal overall.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 03 January, 2017, 05:33:12 pm
Got TR working again by deleting and reinstalling the app which resynced everything cleanly.

The new version has the biggest missing feature I've wanted which is tracking progress through a training plan. It always seemed like an odd omission.

Nice one Simon, app updated & I can finally see the plan progress & next workout :)

Strangely I emailed them in November asking when we might get this feature & they didn't tell me it was almost there despite a very helpful reply
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 January, 2017, 10:31:03 pm
Can't get these bollocking Tuesday intervals right.   Only seem to complete them properly every other week.   Clearly pushing the edge of what I'm capable of at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 04 January, 2017, 06:59:38 am
Can't get these bollocking Tuesday intervals right.   Only seem to complete them properly every other week.   Clearly pushing the edge of what I'm capable of at the moment.

Without knowing what the actual problem is, maybe increasing the recovery time between intervals? Either that or reduce the intensity a bit is what I do when I can't hit the numbers.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 January, 2017, 08:42:45 am
Can't get these bollocking Tuesday intervals right.   Only seem to complete them properly every other week.   Clearly pushing the edge of what I'm capable of at the moment.

Without knowing what the actual problem is, maybe increasing the recovery time between intervals? Either that or reduce the intensity a bit is what I do when I can't hit the numbers.

Since starting the length of the intervals has increased and the recovery decreased to the point where I can take a deep breath, have a swig of drink and straight back on it.   Last week I hit it bang on so I know it's do-able, but I backed off part way through the 4th rep last night.   I've had trouble getting the pacing right but thought I had cracked it after last week, but I think I'm not quite 100% at the moment.   I'll start a little slower next week and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 04 January, 2017, 09:05:13 am
Surely if your recovery period is too short then they cease to be intervals! Longer recovery periods mean harder intervals are possible, didn't OBree do something like 5' effort 30' rests?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 January, 2017, 01:33:23 pm
Surely if your recovery period is too short then they cease to be intervals! Longer recovery periods mean harder intervals are possible, didn't OBree do something like 5' effort 30' rests?

Yeah.   This session has gradually got harder week-on-week to the point where it's (roughly) 50mins of hard work with 4 mini breaks interspersed.   I'd already told my coach I was struggling with the session and there's only 1 more planned in this build phase.   I've asked if I should do it easier or can I extend the rest periods back up.

Looking forward to next week as it's an easier week and I'm off to ride an audax on the Saturday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 04 January, 2017, 06:33:34 pm
First big effort since breaking my rib, quite pleased with that. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4822287-ak-billat-5x3 (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4822287-ak-billat-5x3)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 04 January, 2017, 06:44:00 pm
very nice
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 January, 2017, 10:12:45 pm
Tonight's 2x30m required a couple of short breaks in the second interval.

Yesterday's extra-hard workout probably to blame. I was only slightly off target overall so no disaster.

3x12m threshold tomorrow. Unless they pull my wisdom tooth that's been bothering me tomorrow, in which case I might need to avoid exercise for a day or two.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 04 January, 2017, 11:11:25 pm
Had blood lactate testing today. Not got the results yet, but my resting BL was 3.8mmol. I fear I may still be overdoing it.

Have to wait for the results, but looking back over my previous data with my coach (feels weird saying that), he said not to be disheartened if it hasn't gone up much as I'm just in build phase 1, and my Time To Exhaustion has gone up. He's just done a load of training with Joe Friel, and TTE appears to be a new WKO4 metric from Andrew Coggan.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/introduction-of-the-new-time-to-exhaustion-metric-in-wko4

I suspect him saying that means he's already seen I've not gained much in the modeled FTP metric mentioned on that page.Going to discuss what to do for the next 6 weeks tomorrow, but initial plan is to drop the intensity a little (in that I'm failing to complete the last rep of threshold on the hardest days of the hard weeks and increase the volume a bit to hit the desired TSS.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 January, 2017, 12:07:20 am
When you start out and your FTP is X and you increase it to Y. Then you increase the time you can spend at FTP.

It's interesting that you are doing a build plan at this time of year. I'm very much in base for the next several weeks and I may extend that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 05 January, 2017, 07:41:06 am
Had blood lactate testing today. Not got the results yet, but my resting BL was 3.8mmol.

That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 05 January, 2017, 07:48:56 am
DrMekon
I suspect I have asked this before but where did you go?
Secondly is it worth it?  I know from a nerdy geeky way it is totally worth it.  But is it worth a day of my time when i could be earning money or training on the bike.  Is it going to give my coach and I anything really useful?

thanks
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 05 January, 2017, 08:18:35 am
Chris

This may help https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769631/#!po=34.3750 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769631/#!po=34.3750)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 05 January, 2017, 08:49:46 am
Had blood lactate testing today. Not got the results yet, but my resting BL was 3.8mmol.

That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.
I think he's using a Lactate Scout+, and the pattern is that it drops as I warm up. The numbers I got were realistic in terms of threshold, whereas strava used a 20m test protocol that hugely overestimated what I could do.

I'll ask him about the model he's using and calibration though.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 05 January, 2017, 09:11:11 am
DrMekon
I suspect I have asked this before but where did you go?
Secondly is it worth it?  I know from a nerdy geeky way it is totally worth it.  But is it worth a day of my time when i could be earning money or training on the bike.  Is it going to give my coach and I anything really useful?

thanks
Hard to say. I work from home a lot, and my coach comes to me, so it's not disruptive. Also, it's part of my coaching, and his prices are very modest. I'd say that it's worth it if you aren't sure of your zones or you find FTP testing aversive / disruptive in the context of your schedule. However, if you don't mind FTP testing and are confident of the protocol you are using, and can motivate yourself to give it your best, I'm not clear what more it offers (I've not looked). Also, I suspect if you are testing regularly, with judicious use of zip ties you could set one up so you could administer it yourself. I suspect with the cost of the device and consumables, you could save yourself money over the usual charge in a year of regular testing.

I'm working with Iain Findlay. He used to work in my LBS and did my bike fittings before he branched out. I really like him, in that he's geeky (we send each other journal articles).

https://painfreepower.com/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 January, 2017, 09:36:08 am
I've not had lactate testing since the one time in 2009. I have had testing using RQ and this seems to be in the same ballpark as the numbers I get from the TrainerRoad 2x8m test.

Generally the TR test has come up with a slightly lower number but the ramp test protocol steps by 20W and they can't really say 270W or 275W. When I got 280W and used that in TR I spent the next month struggling in workouts. I then tested in TR and got 276W, so given the month of training I'd probably been. between 270-275W.

What you get from LT or RQ testing is more than just a single number, for instance the RQ tests indicated a substantially improved fat burning at low intensity after doing a sweet spot base plan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 05 January, 2017, 07:47:45 pm
Thank you.  I think I won't bother as I am seeing good steady gains and I don't think it would add much at my level of training.

Started trying to up the power work and have started doing a weights session at the opposite end of the day to the turbo session.  Legs feel heavy but seem to be coping so at the moment I plan to continue.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 05 January, 2017, 08:00:27 pm
5x10' @ 101%FTP today. Very pleased with that considering I had over 2 weeks off. I'll see how the next 2 weeks go and if all is well I'll probably up my TR FTP setting by 5%. My anaerobic threshold HR seems to be 3-4 BPM higher than this time last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 January, 2017, 08:32:57 pm
I suspect your FTP is set too low.

I did 3x12m undulating intervals between 95-99% FTP. Legs felt heavy initially but it was ok once I'd settled in.

422 TSS in 4 days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 06 January, 2017, 07:18:05 am
I suspect your FTP is set too low.

5x10' @101% with 5' recoveries is perfectly doable, although very hard, but you are correct, my FTP is a little low based on my sessions leading up to my crash. I was about to increase it then but will wait a bit now. I suppose if you use a smart turbo that controls the resistance for you then an accurate FTP is important, with a basic fluid one you can easily (?) just work a bit harder. All my intervals are done at the maximum effort I can manage based on duration/reps/recovery, no point doing a 10' session at an intensity less than what you could do for a 25 m TT (which is what your FTP is) in my opinion.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 07 January, 2017, 01:39:04 pm

That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.

Hmm - thanks for flagging this. I mentioned this to him, and he asked me to list what meds I'm on. I've started googling, and type B lactic acidosis looks possible - I'm on a load of the meds implicated. I've emailed a prof in pharmacy for advice, and have an appt with my respiratory consultant in mid feb. My treatment seems very aggressive to me (on 12 meds currently, and had to resist being put on a 13th, which is why he called me back - he's worried about my waking at night, constant heartburn, and subjective chest tightness). Colleagues have expressed concern about the amount of drugs I'm on, and I have said before that the answer always seems to be more drugs. I've asked for tests before and for physio for my lung condition. I must chase these up.

If this proves to be the case, I shall be very grateful for the early warning - by the sounds of it, you can get in to quite a spiral if you go down this path.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 07 January, 2017, 05:21:59 pm
Rest day yesterday and 4x15' @ 95-99% today but couldn't hit the target power for the last two intervals but a good hard session nevertheless. HR still  higher than expected but that's possibly due to the 2 weeks off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 07 January, 2017, 05:28:37 pm
DrMekon I hope it's not, it sounds like you don't need any more issues! GWS
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 January, 2017, 02:44:22 pm
Struggled with the last set today. Yesterday was rowing training plus a trip to London on the motorbike so felt tired this morning.

Going to finish this 7 day cycle with an easy workout later, rest day tomorrow.

Also, I'm starving.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 08 January, 2017, 03:32:48 pm



That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.

Hmm - thanks for flagging this. I mentioned this to him, and he asked me to list what meds I'm on. I've started googling, and type B lactic acidosis looks possible - I'm on a load of the meds implicated. I've emailed a prof in pharmacy for advice, and have an appt with my respiratory consultant in mid feb. My treatment seems very aggressive to me (on 12 meds currently, and had to resist being put on a 13th, which is why he called me back - he's worried about my waking at night, constant heartburn, and subjective chest tightness). Colleagues have expressed concern about the amount of drugs I'm on, and I have said before that the answer always seems to be more drugs. I've asked for tests before and for physio for my lung condition. I must chase these up.

If this proves to be the case, I shall be very grateful for the early warning - by the sounds of it, you can get in to quite a spiral if you go down this path.

i'm of the opinion that human body tends to fix itself, given the right environment/conditions. what would happen if you stopped taking pills? (not that i would advise doing that)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 08 January, 2017, 04:47:10 pm



That is very high, close to the normally accepted value of OBLA (4 mmol). I would seriously question the accuracy of the test if I were you. It should be nearer to 1.5 mmol.

Hmm - thanks for flagging this. I mentioned this to him, and he asked me to list what meds I'm on. I've started googling, and type B lactic acidosis looks possible - I'm on a load of the meds implicated. I've emailed a prof in pharmacy for advice, and have an appt with my respiratory consultant in mid feb. My treatment seems very aggressive to me (on 12 meds currently, and had to resist being put on a 13th, which is why he called me back - he's worried about my waking at night, constant heartburn, and subjective chest tightness). Colleagues have expressed concern about the amount of drugs I'm on, and I have said before that the answer always seems to be more drugs. I've asked for tests before and for physio for my lung condition. I must chase these up.

If this proves to be the case, I shall be very grateful for the early warning - by the sounds of it, you can get in to quite a spiral if you go down this path.

i'm of the opinion that human body tends to fix itself, given the right environment/conditions. what would happen if you stopped taking pills? (not that i would advise doing that)
I have a genetic condition that means my lungs scar when I get chest infections. The scars also increase the likelihood of infections, and over time, the lung can sag at these points and become pockets of infection that need to be removed surgically. You can end up losing half a lung. I already had mild scarring through both lungs when I was diagnosed.

I have asthma, and am highly atopic (snotty). These things also put me at risk. Before my boss at work got new scanned, I was having about 6 chest infections a year.

Since I've been treated aggressively, I've had one chest infection. That's in over two years. My lung function is really good (about 33% better than it should be for someone my age / height). The side effects and the burden of managing my treatment is a pain, but my uncle died of emphysema, and the last 10+ years of his life looked awful. I want to avoid that.

My current consultant seems to throw lots of drugs at me. However, he's kept my peak flow up, and I'm not having lung problems. Relative to his normal clients (old men who can barely walk across the room), I fear he wonders why I bug him about side effects so much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 08 January, 2017, 06:56:51 pm
i see, hmm. if all the pills are taken to prevent chest infection, how would you know when you no longer need to take the meds? anyway it's off-topic and i wish you the best health for the future! 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 08 January, 2017, 09:55:40 pm
Because I still have the genetic condition (it won't go away), and various markers of the condition are present, and improved on treatment.

I'm familiar with iatrogenic disease, and much as I think a healthy lifestyle is the best medicine for most things, the condition I have (bronciectasis) isn't something to mess about with or be relaxed about. I am really lucky to have been caught so early. I know people with the condition who are awaiting lung transplant.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 11 January, 2017, 08:38:49 pm
Rubbish couple of days. Zwift failed me on Sunday so I did hill repeats outside which was fun. Then Monday work put paid to exercise, Tuesday my heart was not in it and this morning I was 20down on TSS compared to last time doing same session.

Fortunately able to leave office at 20:00 tonight so straight to bed.   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 January, 2017, 09:07:43 pm
Been feeling under the weather this week. As for zwift, sounds like they are having problems!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 January, 2017, 10:28:12 am
Think I've got a cold.  >:(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 January, 2017, 10:50:16 am
Think my cold has finally gone.   Completed Tuesday's turbo session properly for the first time in a while, but now adapting for the rest of the week.

Long steady ride planned in the cold for Saturday - should be about 120miles all in.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 January, 2017, 11:50:03 am
I've only trained once - Tuesday water rowing session - since the weekend. I tried to get out of that but ended up still going due to lack of numbers.

I'm entered into a 200k a week on Saturday so hopefully will be sufficiently back to normal by then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 12 January, 2017, 12:30:22 pm
Back to it after a restful week. I had gone from "cant have a day off the bike" to "I can't wait for another rest day / easy week".

This week is like the last cycle, but then next week and the week after are a bit chunky - suspect I will be struggling on the hard days. However, for now, even the hideous low rpm SST session is fun.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 12 January, 2017, 03:11:42 pm
Yesterday was a rest day after a four day block consisting of 4x15', 5x10', 4x8' and finally a Billat 5x3'. Today is day one of the next four day block which is the same four sessions but in reverse order. After failing to hit my targets in Monday's 4x8', Tuesday was hard but achievable and today was a 5x3 power PB so it looks like I am back to where I was before the break.

I now feel confident in upping my FTP, maybe by 8W initially and see how the LI sessions go.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 January, 2017, 03:45:33 pm
You're all doing an awful lot of threshold/high intensity stuff.   I'm only doing 2 turbo sessions a week.

How many hours a week are you all doing in total ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 January, 2017, 04:00:48 pm
If I was feeling 100%, this week would be 9h, two threshold workouts (Tuesday and Thursday).

Tuesday - 12x 3m threshold.
Wednesday - 3x20m tempo.
Thursday - 4x8m threshold + 5s sprints.
Friday - 1h endurance.
Saturday - 6x8m sweet-spot with hard starts@ 200% FTP for 12s.
Sunday - 3h endurance.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 12 January, 2017, 04:12:20 pm
And how much on the road?

(I'd say for me that much turbo time would be massively overtraining for this time of year and I would be completely burnt out by the time I actually wanted results in the real world in May / June / July)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 January, 2017, 04:23:00 pm
And how much on the road?

(I'd say for me that much turbo time would be massively overtraining for this time of year and I would be completely burnt out by the time I actually wanted results in the real world in May / June / July)

Same here.

I'm doing :-
 
- 10hrs of commuting - not junk miles but aiming to be in endurance/low end tempo bands using an HRM.
- a 4-6hr road ride at a weekend
- 2 turbo sessions of approx. an hour.   I'd call them both top end tempo/threshold.

Call it 16-17hrs a week

Key races are really June/July.    I properly overcooked it last Winter and paid the price with some below-par races.

No idea what the next few weeks will bring as I only get sent the plan week-by-week.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 January, 2017, 04:30:16 pm
And it's the 2 turbo sessions that I hate more than anything.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 12 January, 2017, 04:36:53 pm
with my key events at the end of july, i think it's still to early to start structured training. might be starting from base2 from around march. so far just keep doing some longer rides at easy and moderate pace.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 12 January, 2017, 04:38:24 pm
As my top priority right now is weight loss (I'll worry about enjoying cycling again if I still feel like this in April) I'm not even doing much LSD- it generates an appetite for more calories than it burns off.
Commuting is when I can, (and CBA) and I really can't count that as it's pretty much all downhill. Or on a bridge  ;)
Lighter evenings it'll start counting as I'll ride home- as that's (obviously) uphill all the way.

3 Turbo sessions (totalling 4 hours MAX) and probably 3 resistance sessions and that's more than enough.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 12 January, 2017, 05:25:52 pm
About 7.5 hours training per week including 3 hour ride at weekend.  I am also adding in some weights and pilates sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lady Cavendish on 12 January, 2017, 05:34:18 pm
I think some people just find the turbo easier than others. I am a complete pussy in the cold and tend to hide inside a lot. I'd always prefer to ride outdoors and do where possible but I have no problems sitting on a turbo for several sessions a week if needs be. I honestly don't ever have any motivation issues, I love it. Some people really hate it. In the same way I hate the idea of a MTB!

My week looks something like
Mon- 90 min ride am, 60 mins pm plus 45 min run lunchtime
Tuesday- speed running session (hour) plus body pump am, 60 min ride pm
Weds- 90 min ride am, 45 min lunchtime run, turbo session of death pm
Thurs- 2 x GRIT classes am, spinning lunchtime (though don't go hard), running club evening
Friday- turbo session of death am, run and body pump pm
Saturday- 2+ hour run
Sunday- long ride (4-7 hours)

I tend to do this year round really, (Oct and Nov are easier months with less interval stuff) except when spring/summer comes, things get taken out/moved for racing. If I race on a Saturday (running obv this time of year) I move the long run to Weds morning. If the weather is shite, I will do all the rides on a turbo and be fine with it. There are only 2 'proper' turbo sessions in my week though, plus a running 'session'  :-[
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 January, 2017, 06:49:47 pm
How much on the road? I'd do the 3h long ride on a Sunday on the road. I'm not commuting (3.5h round trip - not in winter) so total volume is much lower than rob's.

FTP is testing higher than just before last PBP for which I trained far more outdoors.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 12 January, 2017, 07:30:11 pm
9h13m this week. That's a 540TSS week. No road. Goes up to 13.5hrs and 650TSS week after next. All less volume but more intensity and more rest than last year.

Mentally, it's all good for me. Listen to spotify, podcasts, watch Roadkill...

Lady Cav... chapeau. Last year taught me that I can dig myself in to a hole, notice the unfamiliar surroundings, and keep digging. I wish I had your resilience. Sadly, the colleague, who I ride with, has similar capacity. I have to accept I do not.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 12 January, 2017, 08:01:47 pm
I've had some sinus/snot/head thing going on since New Year, so I've done precisely NOWT for at least a couple of weeks (save for a bit of walking).

I'll start again once it doesn't feel like my eyeballs are going to explode whenever my HR increases  :hand:.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 January, 2017, 08:59:26 pm
Last year I did more hours with 3 turbo sessions totalling about 4hrs per work, but commuting was junk mileage.   Seems to be more quality this year as long as I do as I'm told.

have spent many years learning to suffer on the bike over long distances but going eyeballs out is just so different.

Probably why I'm crap at 10s & 25s.

I got close to the entry to my pain cave once, but bought something in the souvenir shop and caught the bus home.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 12 January, 2017, 09:30:06 pm
You're all doing an awful lot of threshold/high intensity stuff.   I'm only doing 2 turbo sessions a week.

How many hours a week are you all doing in total ?

Currently it's only 6-7 hours a week, hence they all have to count. Sort of matching what I did last year following my broken hand, only this year I will put more long rides from March, a reverse periodisation programme type of thing.

Although it is said by some that you can't do high intensity intervals day after day without the intensity dropping I find I can. It needs a huge amount of motivation though, I find them much easier to do first thing in the morning at 5:30am because I don't have time to fear the pain. The workouts are a very specific design though, based on Seiler and Billat's research, maybe I have just hit on something that works for me?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 12 January, 2017, 09:36:39 pm
And how much on the road?

(I'd say for me that much turbo time would be massively overtraining for this time of year and I would be completely burnt out by the time I actually wanted results in the real world in May / June / July)

Nothing on the road for another 3 weeks until my broken rib is healed enough. My main targets this year are the Cambridge Chrono (to qualify for the UCI Masters in France) and the National 12h. The Cambridge Chrono course has a couple of hills on it so I need to lose 10kg to have a reasonable chance there.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 12 January, 2017, 10:00:01 pm
feeling better tonight.  repeated a workout from 1 month ago.  NP up by 5% and a new record 1 minute power.  Took a much more controlled approach to the high intensity intervals.  I needed to know what my minute power was if properly paced and tonight I think I managed it.  I now have something to work on and build.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 January, 2017, 10:04:24 pm
You're all doing an awful lot of threshold/high intensity stuff.   I'm only doing 2 turbo sessions a week.

How many hours a week are you all doing in total ?

Currently it's only 6-7 hours a week, hence they all have to count. Sort of matching what I did last year following my broken hand, only this year I will put more long rides from March, a reverse periodisation programme type of thing.

Although it is said by some that you can't do high intensity intervals day after day without the intensity dropping I find I can. It needs a huge amount of motivation though, I find them much easier to do first thing in the morning at 5:30am because I don't have time to fear the pain. The workouts are a very specific design though, based on Seiler and Billat's research, maybe I have just hit on something that works for me?

My 3 hard sessions a week have me hurting for a couple of days.   When I started my long ride was on a Sunday and it compromised my Tuesday turbo session.  I couldn't do hard sessions day after day, but maybe my coach would change the sessions if they were for consecutive days.   I'm impressed by your commitment.

I stopped doing my 5am sessions as I simply couldn't sleep before them.   Evenings seem to work better at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 January, 2017, 10:28:57 am
Whatever is going on with me I'm very heavy legged this morning. Cycled to the station (10 miles) and my legs had no energy.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 13 January, 2017, 10:37:31 am
Whatever is going on with me I'm very heavy legged this morning. Cycled to the station (10 miles) and my legs had no energy.

Not sure if you monitor HRV/RHR - my Fitbit does RHR each day, and I had a good four days warning that I was getting sick:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/723/32242971176_0c55bcd9d8.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/R8cE19)

The day it reached 66 was the first day I started feeling ill.

(Yeah, I know - there's something almost CDC-ish about the spike; am I in the wrong thread?)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 13 January, 2017, 11:03:32 am
Whatever is going on with me I'm very heavy legged this morning. Cycled to the station (10 miles) and my legs had no energy.

I got really cold/wet on the ride home last night.   I had to be helped out of my kit when I got home.

Legs felt very ropey this morning.   I'm shuffling tomorrows long ride onto more main roads and will likely flake on the lanesy audax I have entered.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 January, 2017, 11:16:57 am
We have Withings scales which do heart rate. My morning HR peaked early in the week and has been falling since. I'm going to try to have an easier weekend to get back to normal. I've volunteered to cox tomorrow which will reduce fatigue levels further compared to rowing and is also useful experience.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 15 January, 2017, 09:37:09 pm
Last day of a four day block was 4x15' and I died 5' into the last interval but overall (over the four days) the numbers were good. The next three weeks are going to be more of a polarised approach starting with a very easy hour tomorrow spinning below LT1.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 16 January, 2017, 05:06:45 pm
How do people typically integrate TrainerRoad with real outdoor rides?

Do you go for one of the higher load training plans & replace some of the rides with outdoor rides? or do you go for a smaller load training plan & add in outdoor rides as you want?

I've seen the talk about TTS, do you approximate that for outdoor rides, or ignore outdoor rides?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 January, 2017, 06:37:07 pm
I try to do the former.

Edit: what TrainerRoad advise themselves is that do 'quality' work inside - such as intervals. Workouts which are hours of steady riding can be done outside without changing the nature of the work too far.

Chad Timmerman who designs the plans says he cannot do the long steady workouts indoors - the most he can stand is about 2h.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 January, 2017, 06:45:04 pm
There isn't a way to upload work done outdoors. You can tick them off in the planner as done outdoors. They do plan to add the upload facility. This might make me consider dropping TrainingPeaks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 16 January, 2017, 07:06:56 pm
How do people typically integrate TrainerRoad with real outdoor rides?

Do you go for one of the higher load training plans & replace some of the rides with outdoor rides? or do you go for a smaller load training plan & add in outdoor rides as you want?

I've seen the talk about TTS, do you approximate that for outdoor rides, or ignore outdoor rides?

I don't use the TR plans so it's easy to integrate TR rides with outdoor rides. My plan is on paper/spreadsheet and my ride data is stored in GoldenCheetah which can quite happily cope with all ride types. As most of my outdoor rides are sans power meter I use the HR based TRIMP rather than the power based TSS for monitoring training load.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 16 January, 2017, 08:08:40 pm
Bad couple of days.  Sunday was supposed to be a turbo session which did not get done as we had friends with us and then today was supposed to be a long outside ride on a day off.  Then a couple of phone calls turned into 4 hours then i got stuck in a good book and the ride did not happen.

That is life.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 16 January, 2017, 08:19:05 pm
Er, yeah.
Training peaks over the weekend gave me a TSS of (not a typo) 3348.7 for a 5km row based on my HR.

Then today the bloody Garmin told me I need 19 hours to recover from riding up Ormesby Bank on my commute home. Actually, that may be about right.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 January, 2017, 08:56:25 pm
Chiba - I've generally found TP to give high values but by those I mean 750TSS for a 200k based on hrTSS. That seems high. A water rowing session of 1h-90m giving around 50. Maybe that number is not so unrealistic.

I don't know how their formula works but if it's based on either HRmax or threshold HR are these set correctly in your profile.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 16 January, 2017, 09:07:57 pm
How do people typically integrate TrainerRoad with real outdoor rides?

Do you go for one of the higher load training plans & replace some of the rides with outdoor rides? or do you go for a smaller load training plan & add in outdoor rides as you want?

I've seen the talk about TTS, do you approximate that for outdoor rides, or ignore outdoor rides?
I can't remember what training Peaks did, but I think it's the same - if I tell today's plan about an event, it cuts the intensity and volume right back, and puts in a short activation ride the day before.

Today's plan is estimating 630 for Sunday's 200 - I've only got two 18tss recovery rides and a brief 50tss activation ride to do and I'm done.

Don't know what to do with myself!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 January, 2017, 09:42:20 pm
I'm back. Dropped FTP by 10W to account for a week off. Heavy legs from Saturday are gone. I'll skip Friday as riding a 200k on Saturday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: valkyrie on 22 January, 2017, 12:45:02 pm
My old Tacx iFlow died back in November and after a prolonged wait for delivery from Tredz I've finally got a new Tacx Flux. The Flux worked fine with the App on my iPad, but a few questions I hope somebody knows the answers to -

1. For a given wattage the Flux is much harder work than the iFlow. Am I right to assume that the Flux is likely to be the more accurate meter and I should just accept I'm not as powerful as I thought I was? I was quite surprised that the Flux had a calibration function but it doesn't seem to change much.
2. What's the best way to connect in an HR meter? My old HR chest straps don't work with the Flux, so I guess I need a Bluetooth chest strap to connect straight to the iPad. Is that right? And is there a "best buy" in bluetooth chest straps?
3. Cadence - much to my surprise the Flux gives a cadence value without having a direct measurement. Seems quite slow to respond and I'm wondering if I should also get a Bluetooth Cadence sensor? Would that work?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: offcumden on 22 January, 2017, 04:38:06 pm
? And is there a "best buy" in bluetooth chest straps?

I use a Decathlon belt with my KK smart app.  Works just fine and was £27.99 rather than £62.99 for the KK version.
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ant-bluetooth-smart-hrm-id_8334795.html   - Prices may have gone up a tad since then.

Quote
3. Cadence - much to my surprise the Flux gives a cadence value without having a direct measurement. Seems quite slow to respond and I'm wondering if I should also get a Bluetooth Cadence sensor? Would that work?

Likewise, the KK app cadence readings are not very accurate - although they seem to have improved with software tweaks.  I just use a cheap h/b computer to give me an accurate cadence reading.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 22 January, 2017, 08:44:48 pm
Still on target with new power bests for 10', 60' and 90' this weekend. Just another three weeks to go of the exclusively indoor diet then 12 days of hotel gyms (hopefully at least every third hotel may have one) for an adaption "week". After which I should be ready to go back on the road! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 January, 2017, 07:55:57 am
I just bought the cheapest bluetooth HR strap on amazon.  Works perfectly.  Only thing they seem to scrimp on is the battery and I needed to replace it after about a month.

i think all the systems which use the force generation in the turbo to measure cadence are inaccurate.  If the bike is rocking because i am pushing a big gear then the cadence can be wildly out.  I invested in a decent cadence monitor as well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 January, 2017, 02:52:16 pm
weirdly great morning.  1 hour in watopia climbing that the antenna at which point 2 pallets of bagged horse manure arrived.  That was then moved up the incline of the drive and laid out in various places for 1:45 hours followed by another 1:55 in watopia.  Gives me a TSS for the morning of 350!

Now I cannot get my HR under 120!

And all done fasted apart from 3 cups of coffee.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 January, 2017, 03:05:06 pm
So I mostly completed last week on target, probably 50 TSS below.

That's ok.

I'm thinking I need to repeat the FTP test tomorrow to see where I really am.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 23 January, 2017, 10:32:31 pm
did a short test for pedaling efficiency on a wattbike today and as i understand it there is not much room for improvement, which is both good and bad (i.e. no quick wins here)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170123/3fe8e93c3bf2aac91565bab9c1d075c2.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 24 January, 2017, 01:05:28 pm
did a short test for pedaling efficiency on a wattbike today and as i understand it there is not much room for improvement, which is both good and bad (i.e. no quick wins here)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170123/3fe8e93c3bf2aac91565bab9c1d075c2.jpg)

Based on my own experience I'd have to agree, good job.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 January, 2017, 08:44:34 pm
New FTP 268. Up 2W since last test. Given I've had two separate weeks off and that was before Christmas I call that a win.

Ow, though. That hurt.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 24 January, 2017, 10:09:44 pm
Today appears to be FTP day.... mine was down by 5W :(

Onward and upwards...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 24 January, 2017, 10:11:45 pm
I was supposed to do one, but it's incompatible with a 20km hill walk.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 24 January, 2017, 10:32:30 pm
I left it all day and finally gave in around 18:00 - I blame it being 'at night' for the drop in performance lol

(Happy Birthday btw!)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 January, 2017, 11:51:12 pm
Today appears to be FTP day.... mine was down by 5W :(

Onward and upwards...

So now the question:

 - did it drop because you are not training enough
 - or because you're training too much

Also if you were not very fresh, don't immediately assume you would not have done better on a better day.

I'm slightly scared of my increase as I'd been struggling a bit with FTP of 266 and dropped it to 255. Now the test says it' 268 so I might start to struggle again.  :-\
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 January, 2017, 12:54:57 am
And as if by magic http://bit.ly/2j2gutQ - versions of some plans are now available with the long rides replaced by shorter sweet spot alternatives.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 25 January, 2017, 09:18:19 am
Today appears to be FTP day.... mine was down by 5W :(

Onward and upwards...

So now the question:

 - did it drop because you are not training enough
 - or because you're training too much

Also if you were not very fresh, don't immediately assume you would not have done better on a better day.

I'm slightly scared of my increase as I'd been struggling a bit with FTP of 266 and dropped it to 255. Now the test says it' 268 so I might start to struggle again.  :-\

Its probably a bit of a combo of a different time of day and a little bit of fatigue from Saturdays 200km

Last night test, FTP 231:
(https://5-t.imgbox.com/Kx2GeVPZ.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/Kx2GeVPZ)

Previous, FTP 235:
(https://6-t.imgbox.com/OaYYmWKG.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/OaYYmWKG)

I carried a lot of fatigue from the Rapha 500 over Xmas but thought I had mostly got over it
(https://8-t.imgbox.com/qsKDyG1B.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/qsKDyG1B)
(https://0-t.imgbox.com/rsE4NtPt.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/rsE4NtPt)

Interestingly I was initially disappointed to see only getting to a 'fitness level' of about 100 but looking at last years data  I am getting to where I was at the end of 2016 in a lot less time, so the training must pay off in some way.  What I don't necessarily have is the FTP data points (I didnt do much testing last year - and what testing I did do was a mix of protocols)

(https://6-t.imgbox.com/pq2isrB9.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/pq2isrB9)

I'm still struggling with what to do where I have audax and training combining for a big TSS, at the moment I am just planning to bounce/pause the training plan sessions along few days and picking back up where I left off on the plan but I don't know how this works in real life?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 January, 2017, 09:51:00 am
The plans are deliberately not a calendar. So you could for example do an easier week selecting workouts a la carte and they are not recorded as part of the plan. Then return to the plan once more recovered.

A 200k at the weekend is quite likely to still be weighing down a little.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 25 January, 2017, 12:16:58 pm
Today appears to be FTP day.... mine was down by 5W :(

Onward and upwards...

So now the question:

 - did it drop because you are not training enough
 - or because you're training too much

Also if you were not very fresh, don't immediately assume you would not have done better on a better day.

I'm slightly scared of my increase as I'd been struggling a bit with FTP of 266 and dropped it to 255. Now the test says it' 268 so I might start to struggle again.  :-\

This is training though no?

When my MMP on the Wattbike went from 410 to 433 to 466 watts over the course of 4 months, for sure it hurt for the first week then after as your body adapts it does get easier - this is essentially what training is.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 26 January, 2017, 09:14:48 am
And as if by magic http://bit.ly/2j2gutQ - versions of some plans are now available with the long rides replaced by shorter sweet spot alternatives.

Now this is really attractive to me - I have a 2hr endurance scheduled for tomorrow, but it will mean a really hectic morning - looking on TP, I can get the same TSS from SST and save 40 minutes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 26 January, 2017, 09:53:00 am
Surely the endurance is training a different aspect of your fitness (I hate that word, it's so woolly as to be almost meaningless) than the sweet spot training?

None Few of us regular audaxers need much in the way of endurance training mind. Not that I'm a regular audaxer at the moment. 4 months off (and counting) that first 100km is going to hurt.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 January, 2017, 11:05:53 am
SS is supposedly giving a little bit of everything. Not all plans will have long rides replaced by SST. For instance not the century speciality plan.

I'd switch the SS version in if time is limited and/or weather doesn't allow an outdoor ride. I can't see myself doing 3h endurance inside.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 January, 2017, 02:12:37 pm
Just had a look at the revised SS High Volume II.

Scared.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 26 January, 2017, 06:26:49 pm
First proper turbo session since New Year lurgy.

Ebbetts.

Ouch.

That's all I have to say about that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 January, 2017, 08:05:08 pm
First proper turbo session since New Year lurgy.

Ebbetts.

Ouch.

That's all I have to say about that.

It's not the sprints that are the problem, it's the following seconds trying to keep going at near threshold intensity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 26 January, 2017, 08:35:31 pm
First proper turbo session since New Year lurgy.

Ebbetts.

Ouch.

That's all I have to say about that.

It's not the sprints that are the problem, it's the following seconds trying to keep going at near threshold intensity.

Damn right. I couldn't have done a fifth set - which is of course, the point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 29 January, 2017, 05:20:50 pm
Where do you all stand on recovery rides ?

I have 1 full day off a week, but just spun my legs for 5 mins after putting race bike back on the turbo.   I was wondering if spinning on a low resistance for 30 mins would help.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 29 January, 2017, 05:34:57 pm
I am no expert but I do find a low low intensity spin just help stretch things out. I also try to do my stretches for a decent length of time. E.g. 3 minutes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JamieD on 30 January, 2017, 11:28:32 am
I'm wondering if I'm getting something wrong with how I'm using TrainerRoad.

I've been doing Sweet Spot Base High Volume I with my FTP set correctly and it just feels like it's using up a lot of time for workouts that feel (and are) less strenuous than my commute.

If I've been doing a 200K audax every other week plus commuting and club rides would it make more sense to just switch over to the Sustained Power Build.

I get that it's done on TSS and that if I do Sweet Spot Base High Volume I, I should be hitting 522 TSS/week (not that I ever do the 3 hour weekend on the trainer) and Sustained Power Build High Volume is 463 Tss/week so they should be roughly equivalent. It just doesn't feel like that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 30 January, 2017, 09:35:28 pm
did a 20min ftp test today, which resulted the ftp of 274w, which is what i would expect for this time of year. i could have perhaps pushed it to 280w if i nailed it, but definitely not more than that.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170130/50f3c918659c855fbe991bd0a1a5a8f2.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 30 January, 2017, 09:42:13 pm
Nice.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 31 January, 2017, 09:21:21 am
Where do you all stand on recovery rides ?

I have 1 full day off a week, but just spun my legs for 5 mins after putting race bike back on the turbo.   I was wondering if spinning on a low resistance for 30 mins would help.

I do 45m of 120w at 100rpm. My legs def feel better/looser straight after and the next day compared to rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 31 January, 2017, 07:58:03 pm
Where do you all stand on recovery rides ?

I have 1 full day off a week, but just spun my legs for 5 mins after putting race bike back on the turbo.   I was wondering if spinning on a low resistance for 30 mins would help.

I do 45m of 120w at 100rpm. My legs def feel better/looser straight after and the next day compared to rest.

Ta.  Will give that a go. 

I have been steadily upping the resistance on the turbo since starting my programme and have been warming down by slowly reducing cadence.   Tonight, though, I turned the resistance down to 1 and span out at a higher cadence for a while.

First new session for a while tonight.  Under/overs with varying interval times and intensities.   Started out a bit optimistically and paid for it at the end.   Little light headed now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 February, 2017, 05:57:54 pm
had to do a session of 5 x 10min at 240-260w and couldn't complete the last two due to lack of energy and overheating. excuses - did not have any breakfast, went to a spinning class for a warm-up (took it easy), then did a session on a wattbike in a gym, which is great, however there are no fans in front of wattbikes and i got way too hot when doing intervals.
i will either talk to the gym about installing fans (which i think is unlikely) or i will have to continue training at home..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 06 February, 2017, 03:38:21 pm
Found yesterday's 4hr ride pretty hard.   RPE was fine, ave speed higher than it has been for the same bike and roads all Winter.   Couldn't old my HR in zone at all.

May have been the cold or could be fatigue.   I do seem to feel the cold a lot more at my current weight.

A few more days of commuting and a couple of turbo sessions this week then off work for the week and away with the family for a few days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 06 February, 2017, 06:31:58 pm
I have been experimenting with recovery rides, no ride rest days and 3-4 day consecutive interval sessions. Basically I find no statistical difference in my performance based on power output or HR. A two day enforced complete rest did however make a big difference to performance, which was surprising. That was my first two day rest of the year but I have a 12 day business trip coming up and I will aim to do one HIIT session every three days assuming the hotels on those days have gyms.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on 06 February, 2017, 10:40:38 pm
had to do a session of 5 x 10min at 240-260w and couldn't complete the last two due to lack of energy and overheating. excuses - did not have any breakfast, went to a spinning class for a warm-up (took it easy), then did a session on a wattbike in a gym, which is great, however there are no fans in front of wattbikes and i got way too hot when doing intervals.
i will either talk to the gym about installing fans (which i think is unlikely) or i will have to continue training at home..

Fans help me a lot at Wattbike.  I'll be into the "red zone" by the end of the warm-up without fans to cool me down.  It's excess body heat that has me struggling to finish a session more than legs/lungs.

Tonight's main effort was 10 minutes in Zone 5 at 60 rpm and then 10 minutes in Zone 5 at 90 rpm.  As we move through the program the recovery time is spent more and more in Zone 3 than in the actual recovery zone.  I know I'm improving because my heart rate is comeing down even in Zone 3 now.  When I started Wattbike Zone 3 for any length of time was an achievement in itself.

I have a 20 minute FTP re-test in 2 weeks.  I'm already getting nervous.  Anyone who's been though it will understand.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 07 February, 2017, 02:57:24 pm


I have a 20 minute FTP re-test in 2 weeks.  I'm already getting nervous.  Anyone who's been though it will understand.

always good fun (type 2)!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 February, 2017, 04:08:11 pm
Been run down for the last week or so and failed to complete any workouts. Both that I did try I stopped before half way.

Feeling back to normal today. May try something later.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LEE on 07 February, 2017, 05:02:44 pm


I have a 20 minute FTP re-test in 2 weeks.  I'm already getting nervous.  Anyone who's been though it will understand.

always good fun (type 2)!

Possibly Type 2 fun, but it would be against at least one convention to actually force people to do it.

I'd describe as:

2 minutes of "This isn't going to be that bad"
2 minutes of "This may be worse than I originally thought"
5 minutes of "I'm really never going to get to the end of this..I'm not even half way and I think my heart is going to burst"
8 hours (actually minutes) of "F-fecks' sake this is hurting .. why are these minutes taking so long?"
2 minutes of "grunt..sob...Owwwww...Mummy..help me...sob..Owwww...I'm definitely going to quit now"
1 minute of "I can't hear anything any more...should I walk towards that beautiful white light or away from it?"

..then 5 minutes of slumping over the bars whilst the instructor shouts something about keep spinning those legs..lactic acid..blah blah.

...then 5 minutes of mopping the bike and floor.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 08 February, 2017, 04:58:48 pm
I've had back trouble and last nights 'big gear' strength efforts were awful, so I gave up.

I've a horrible feeling I'm still completely buggered from Saturday's 100km- I'm sleeping badly and my HR is way higher than I would expect on RPE.


31st March is in or out date and I'm almost half way there, and not feeling very 'in'.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 February, 2017, 10:22:17 pm
My motivation has come and gone but it's the last 3 days of this build then an easy week.   This is keeping me going.   Week off work next week as well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 12 February, 2017, 10:51:19 am
A 670TSS week just in Zwift. I am 'king glad that's over.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 12 February, 2017, 12:44:30 pm
Away for the weekend in snowy Aberdeen and I pull my calf muscle just walking!  Aaaargh. Getting middle aged is so annoying.

I was really looking forward to the next few weeks of build and 5 days in Tenerife with bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 19 February, 2017, 10:11:27 am
A 670TSS week just in Zwift. I am 'king glad that's over.

and 726TSS this week... rest week due :)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 19 February, 2017, 10:44:45 am
Should have been a 600+ week but the need to do funeral eulogy for tomorrow and probate form and send keys to council means no long ride today.

Should be back next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 19 February, 2017, 12:25:43 pm
I've joined the gym.

Already doing wonders. It's appalling how much difference an audience makes.

Quote from: fboab
sorry, but you'll probably want to move your jacket. This sweat is getting everywhere  :-[
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 19 February, 2017, 12:55:56 pm
Only managed two one hour interval sessions on hotel gym bikes in the last fortnight. Most days I was thwarted by rubbish gyms, gyms that didn't open until after I had to leave, or pollution so bad I daren't breath too hard. Still, my broken rib is now healed sufficiently that I'll risk a few commutes next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 19 February, 2017, 07:28:14 pm
Week off work with a bit of rest, a few 2hr rides, a bit of country walking and a bit too much food.   Topped off by a visit to the London Bike Show today wher Graeme Obree signed my copy of Flying Scotsman.  Lovely guy and they only gave him a 40 minute Q&A slot.

8 weeks of hard work now through to Easter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 February, 2017, 11:58:56 am
I need to get my training back on track.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 20 February, 2017, 01:36:46 pm
i've heard the advice before, but forgot now. what is the recommendation with the sessions if also doing the (quite) intense rides outside too, which leave me too tired to complete the intervals? skip, move forward, reduce intensity?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 20 February, 2017, 03:33:51 pm
i've heard the advice before, but forgot now. what is the recommendation with the sessions if also doing the (quite) intense rides outside too, which leave me too tired to complete the intervals? skip, move forward, reduce intensity?

I was told to always complete the session(s) but reduce the intensity if you feel like you can't get to the end.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 20 February, 2017, 04:18:17 pm
The recent update to Zwift lets you adjust the workout on the fly by tweaking your FTP in increments up to +/- 10% via the mobile app.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 21 February, 2017, 07:31:11 pm
The recent update to Zwift lets you adjust the workout on the fly by tweaking your FTP in increments up to +/- 10% via the mobile app.

i've reduced the intensity on trainer road too for the last interval (ftp stays the same, only the level of required power goes +/-), will likely do that today right from the start, ha ha (it's hard work!..)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 21 February, 2017, 09:12:49 pm
First good session in a while with all that has been going on.  Feel like my mojo is back!!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 February, 2017, 04:11:05 pm
After having a wisdom tooth that's been giving me trouble for months removed yesterday, I'm hoping that I can start training properly again. I had been finding that even light exercise was becoming difficult.

Will hopefully try a gentle session tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 24 February, 2017, 10:52:36 am
2 turbo sessions this week designed to build 'top end'.   Neither of which were as bad as I thought they would be but pretty intense, nonetheless.   4hr tempo road ride on the TT bike tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 25 February, 2017, 08:52:34 pm
Didn't do any commutes last week, just a couple of easy turbo sessions so today's level 3 track accreditation session was my first time actual riding since crashing mid December. On the first drill the guy in front of me was a bit twitchy which made me nervous but after that it was all good. First TT next Saturday but after all this missed time it'll be very much a training ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 February, 2017, 09:00:15 pm
Finally back training. Feels like I've lost a lot. Rowing session on the water this morning then 3x10m sweet spot on the KickR this evening which felt like quite hard work.

Should be on 42 mile steady club ride tomorrow which will help get me back into things.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 25 February, 2017, 09:29:22 pm
2 turbo sessions this week designed to build 'top end'.   Neither of which were as bad as I thought they would be but pretty intense, nonetheless.   4hr tempo road ride on the TT bike tomorrow.

First 2hrs were OK, but then couldn't keep HR in zone with a steady downward drift.

Not really tired, hydrated OK and took on enough carbs so not sure what's causing this.   Seems to happen more often now I'm a bit lighter particularly on cold and windy days.   Completed the hours but felt rough.

Only the first week of this block.   Trip out for dinner for a morale boost.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: dim on 25 February, 2017, 09:58:15 pm
Hoping to do well on my first proper ride since Christams eve

all was going to plan, and I entered the Rapha 500 Strava chalenge which started on the 24th of December..... decided to knock up a century, and done 100km ride .... half the way in heavy headwind. Was feeling a bit rough after 80km, but pushed myself and blamed it on the wind..... done OK with a good ave speed

and woke up the following day (Christmas day) with a bad cold that turned into Bronchitis 2 days later

So I've been taking things a bit easier since then and am fully recovered (I still managed to clock up 664km in January, with a total of 3318 meters of climbing, and for Feb so far, I've managed to ride 857 km with 4722 meters of climbing

prior to that, for several months in a row, I always completed the Strava distance challenge aswell as the Gran Fondo's

tomorow will be my first longish ride in a while .... I will be riding just over 100km from Great Shelford Cambridge, heading South  through  Thunbridge, then back through Elmdon and Duxford with just over 700 meters of climbing .... a very good route (my favourite 100km ride and designed by me using Strava heatmaps) ... on very quiet good roads:

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/17957901


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 25 February, 2017, 10:26:35 pm
Felt back in the "zone" of training this week. HR reached levels not seen since my accident 6 months ago which is interesting.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 February, 2017, 03:39:55 pm
Well that was hard work. Don't think it's base training when your HR reaches 193.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 26 February, 2017, 06:25:46 pm
193!!! 176 is best I can manage.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 26 February, 2017, 10:30:37 pm
TT bike is now sufficiently built and on a turbo. Lots of working in position ahead. yay.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 February, 2017, 11:33:33 pm
193!!! 176 is best I can manage.

220-my age would predict 175. Max I've ever seen was 195. 194 twice last year.

Training at high intensity is suggested to slow decline of HRmax with age.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 27 February, 2017, 08:25:27 am
193!!! 176 is best I can manage.

220-my age would predict 175. Max I've ever seen was 195. 194 twice last year.

Training at high intensity is suggested to slow decline of HRmax with age.

I think the 220-age thing can be way off.   In my first ramp test I hit 205 and I was 40 at the time.

I haven't been near that since but can get to mid 180s on the turbo.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on 27 February, 2017, 09:46:33 am
TT bike is now sufficiently built and on a turbo. Lots of working in position ahead. yay.

Mine too. Seems my shoulders are about twice as wide as the aerobars were built for. And that's with width extenders!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 27 February, 2017, 10:11:12 am
did not manage to complete the workout today due to overheating (forgot to turn the radiator off last night and was getting dizzy at 160bpm). this is the toughest week of the block before the recovery week after which a re-test of ftp.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 27 February, 2017, 10:19:35 am
TT bike is now sufficiently built and on a turbo. Lots of working in position ahead. yay.

Mine too. Seems my shoulders are about twice as wide as the aerobars were built for. And that's with width extenders!

It took me a couple of years to refine my position.   I'm not as low as I would like to be due to back issues, but I have managed to bring myself narrower bit-by-bit.   the fitter I worked with said 0.5-1cm at a time and give your self time to adapt.   Steering at 30mph with your elbows close together takes a bit of practice.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TimC on 27 February, 2017, 10:25:41 am
TT bike is now sufficiently built and on a turbo. Lots of working in position ahead. yay.

Mine too. Seems my shoulders are about twice as wide as the aerobars were built for. And that's with width extenders!

It took me a couple of years to refine my position.   I'm not as low as I would like to be due to back issues, but I have managed to bring myself narrower bit-by-bit.   the fitter I worked with said 0.5-1cm at a time and give your self time to adapt.   Steering at 30mph with your elbows close together takes a bit of practice.

Yeah, that's my plan. I can spread the elbow rests one hole further (3T bars with width extenders), and I'll bring them in one hole at a time as I get used to it. Losing weight would help too!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 27 February, 2017, 01:42:03 pm
Did a best zone 2 ride in terms of distance yesterday until the wind destroyed everything in its path!

This morning did a 2 hour zone 2 ride with a constant  power of 144W and 129HR on the turbo.  Even at the end of the 2 hours I was still maintaining 140W and 129 bpm so pretty pleased.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 28 February, 2017, 09:41:12 pm
Not quite as good tonight.   Felt I was stretching myself a bit in the warm up and the feeling continued for tge next hour.

Still, I get to go audaxing on Saturday which should be altogether more pleasant.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 28 February, 2017, 10:21:00 pm
Emergency dental visit lead to no training tonight.  However i do have 5 days in tenerife.  55km and 2600m to the top!  it will be fun to try.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 01 March, 2017, 10:02:08 pm
New peak 5 second power tonight of 831 watts.  The power seems to have started improving after a static period for a few weeks.


This is a big achievement for me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 March, 2017, 10:49:40 pm
 :thumbsup: better than I've achieved last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 02 March, 2017, 12:03:11 am
i was surprised when i couldn't complete the first 3min interval yesterday morning. it all became obvious when i came down with cold later in the evening. it's been a few years since i was ill, so it took me by surprise. drinking lots of herbal tea now and hoping that one week is enough to recover and get back on the trainer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 02 March, 2017, 01:09:19 pm
did not manage to complete the workout today due to overheating (forgot to turn the radiator off last night and was getting dizzy at 160bpm). this is the toughest week of the block before the recovery week after which a re-test of ftp.

Heat is a killer for me - I've put three fans on a smart plug as they are too cooling to cope with before I'm hot, but then I don't want to stop. I can now switch them on via my phone mid workout.

i was surprised when i couldn't complete the first 3min interval yesterday morning. it all became obvious when i came down with cold later in the evening. it's been a few years since i was ill, so it took me by surprise. drinking lots of herbal tea now and hoping that one week is enough to recover and get back on the trainer.

I had the same recently - couldn't complete, then sore throat and sniffles came on later in the day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 March, 2017, 01:11:18 pm
Smart plug. What a good idea.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 March, 2017, 10:19:04 am
Starting to get some momentum.  3x12 last night. Reckon 15w drop in FTP. Odd how unfit I feel given this is still in the ball park of last PBP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 March, 2017, 11:25:27 am
Last nights session had me back in tge zone.   Much happier.

Knocked off avoiding a ped this morning.   Bruised & beaten and now a very easy weekend planned.   Arse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 March, 2017, 11:27:46 am
Last nights session had me back in tge zone.   Much happier.

Knocked off avoiding a ped this morning.   Bruised & beaten and now a very easy weekend planned.   Arse.

OH WTF. Glad it's not worse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 03 March, 2017, 01:07:27 pm
Rob
My sympathy. I hope you get better soon and can resume training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 March, 2017, 07:58:31 pm
Rowing in the morning, KickR in the evening.

5x331w for 1m:1r. Repeat three times with 8m rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 05 March, 2017, 09:00:41 am
Very nice.

Managed 900m of climb In Tenerife keeping HR steady and in control. Family day today and then aim for Teide on Monday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 05 March, 2017, 05:32:59 pm
Got as far as the starting timekeeper this morning before turning around and going back to the HQ. Cold, wet and windy. I went home and did 4x15' instead.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 05 March, 2017, 07:24:02 pm
Apparently my FTP is static, but my time to exhaustion is going up. It's been suggested I need to alternate big weeks 700TSS+ with easy weeks 450TSS, and look to do at least two sessions with an average intensity of .9.

Picked up a 4iiii power meter to encourage myself to get back out on the road.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 March, 2017, 07:59:07 pm
I often find the high IF sessions to be more rewarding, and mentally engaging. IF 0.65 I'd rather be out cycling on a nice route.

Currently the weather is vile and I'm feeling sleepy after spending 3 hours helping with coaching at the rowing club so disinclined to do anything.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 05 March, 2017, 08:04:07 pm
TSS 839 this week.
I bailed on the 200 yesterday through sheer misery and only just managed a glimmer of enjoyment on today's tandem over for coffee.
I'm knackered,and worse than that, I'm not getting fitter. (Though I am losing weight).

Looking at the checklist for overtraining symptoms, I'm ticking all the fecking boxes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 05 March, 2017, 09:39:37 pm
TSS 839 this week.
I bailed on the 200 yesterday through sheer misery and only just managed a glimmer of enjoyment on today's tandem over for coffee.
I'm knackered,and worse than that, I'm not getting fitter. (Though I am losing weight).

Looking at the checklist for overtraining symptoms, I'm ticking all the fecking boxes.

The not getting faster, but getting thinner ended up with me crouching behind trees. And worse.

In the words of the mighty Ultramagnetic MCs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KSRhQidyms
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 March, 2017, 11:40:30 pm
I'd suggest an easy week (say 200TSS with mainly moderate intensity) to reset.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 06 March, 2017, 08:07:35 am
With my imminent Galician gallop, and post three weeks exclusively driving (OK, and eating and drinking as well) in NZ I needed to get back on the treadmill. The Tacx computer controlled trainer is great, except that you can't stop. If you do,the algorithm that seeks to equal the power output no matter what the cadence and wheelspeed results in trying to achieve cadence of 90 - 100 up a 1:5 gradient. So I thought I'd throttle back FTP to something I could maintain, from the 275 I was last time I used it to 220. Did this help? did it **** :(

Managed an hour of the 1.5 hours of tempo (Sufferfest "To get to the other side") on Saturday (TS 60), but crapped out after 25 mins of climbing (Sufferfest Angels). Long way to go in 6 weeks...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 06 March, 2017, 12:52:56 pm
Ham
Quote
Tacx computer controlled trainer is great, except that you can't stop.

It might be worth seeing if there is an update.  i updated my Neo about 10days ago and found a big improvement in this  cadence/power problem.  i think they may have added some extra algorithms.  As I really slowed down the resistance seemed to scale back to some extent.

Tied did not happen as a gale came in and cycling down these slopes in massive gusting winds is not my idea of fun or even sense.

Went out and did an hour of power work instead on roads I knew be relatively safe.  Highest NP I have recorded (236W) so really pleased.  I think I can do better tomorrow.  we will see, it is supposed to be a holiday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 06 March, 2017, 04:07:10 pm
Ham
Quote
Tacx computer controlled trainer is great, except that you can't stop.

It might be worth seeing if there is an update.  i updated my Neo about 10days ago and found a big improvement in this  cadence/power problem.  i think they may have added some extra algorithms.  As I really slowed down the resistance seemed to scale back to some extent.

Tied did not happen as a gale came in and cycling down these slopes in massive gusting winds is not my idea of fun or even sense.

Went out and did an hour of power work instead on roads I knew be relatively safe.  Highest NP I have recorded (236W) so really pleased.  I think I can do better tomorrow.  we will see, it is supposed to be a holiday.

I have zero confidence in the Tacx software, but I did run Tacx update  program which told me there was no update available. a bit surprising, mine is the "Ironman" which is a re-branded Genius, hard to believe there is no update for that ("flagship") model just below the Neo and probably using the same controller, but there you are. TrainerRoad has improved its software substantially over the last year, at least. Shame the controlling software (eg trainerroad) can't manage the ramp up, all it needs is about 3-5 second ramp.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 07 March, 2017, 07:00:59 am
TSS 839 this week.
I bailed on the 200 yesterday through sheer misery and only just managed a glimmer of enjoyment on today's tandem over for coffee.
I'm knackered,and worse than that, I'm not getting fitter. (Though I am losing weight).

Looking at the checklist for overtraining symptoms, I'm ticking all the fecking boxes.

What was your TSB?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 07 March, 2017, 09:50:31 am
What was your TSB?
-54
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 08 March, 2017, 08:25:05 am
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2015/07/part-3-training-stress-balanceso-what.html

I don't know how severe -54 is, but I hope you are feeling better.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 March, 2017, 03:26:32 pm
So as I had a rowing outing yesterday evening - in 7 seat for a change, usually I'm in bow - the 2x8m test remains uncompleted. I shall try to make myself do it tonight.

Hopefully won't have FTP result below 250W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 08 March, 2017, 05:35:36 pm
I start to not enjoy being on a bike from -40 or so.

In better news after putting off my FTP test, I eventually applied rule 5 and happy to report a good increase from the last one, though not sure I'm going to enjoy the ride to the pub on fixed tonight.... 

Suspect there was a bit of fatigue in the last test I did (231W), but good to see I'm ahead of last year's FTP at this time of year.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170308/bc8f41540bd11ec05acb11aa078dae15.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 March, 2017, 05:40:12 pm
Looks good! Pacing of the 2nd effort a bit erratic, mind. Did you find yourself between two gears?

Time to go home and see if I can MTFU.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 March, 2017, 09:30:12 pm
Damnit. 248W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 09 March, 2017, 09:26:28 am
Looks good! Pacing of the 2nd effort a bit erratic, mind. Did you find yourself between two gears?

Time to go home and see if I can MTFU.

I went a little off from the start and not paying attention to the output trend so fooled myself in to thinking I could crank it up a bit more... I then pondered could I do very hard for 1 min and then easy off for another min and get in to a cycle of under/over to see if that yielded a different number... that lasted for almost a minute or 3 till I started to realise I was over and above a sustainable output, last 2 mins became a bit sweary!

Interestingly, the second session average power was the same as the first 8 min session average 274W but the max was a lot higher for the 2nd, 332W vrs 402W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 March, 2017, 01:40:42 pm
Been hard to ride the commute at any sort of intensity this week due to back/hip problems, but started to feel a bit better this morning.   Despite being told not to use the turbo this week I went back and picked out one of my sessions from December which I ended up quite enjoying, getting my HR back up into race zone again.

I'll ride the 10 I entered on Saturday afternoon if only to test out my new skinsuit/overshoes/tyres.   If I ride there and book should turn into a 70ish mile day.

I now have 5 weeks to go until a family holiday so, hopefully, I haven't lost too much time and I can make some progress.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 March, 2017, 05:53:04 pm
In Scotland for my mum's birthday, brought the trainer with me. Tried 5x10m threshold but only did 3 of them. Tired from the travel I think.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 13 March, 2017, 09:06:09 pm
Supposed to do a FTP test tonight but late home from work and the brain just did not engage. stopped 3 minutes into the 20 minute interval
Try again tomorrow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 14 March, 2017, 07:40:29 am
What a difference a year makes :(

Feb 16, FTP set 270
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-q3QGqvOK58g/WMedhqpywJI/AAAAAAABAGY/Ep4Xz_lP0fgctTuwGOBaBeeGWTsVS88xQCPcB/s800/Feb16.png)

Mar 17, FTP set 220, HR up, cadence down. power? yeah, well.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TMxafytAYEM/WMediCNrmKI/AAAAAAABAGc/4JFKtHSRrV8Ku75qC-veqx_nX6FkyTbkwCPcB/s800/Mar17.png)

(Both Sufferfest Angels)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 14 March, 2017, 01:01:02 pm
Been hard to ride the commute at any sort of intensity this week due to back/hip problems, but started to feel a bit better this morning.   Despite being told not to use the turbo this week I went back and picked out one of my sessions from December which I ended up quite enjoying, getting my HR back up into race zone again.

I'll ride the 10 I entered on Saturday afternoon if only to test out my new skinsuit/overshoes/tyres.   If I ride there and book should turn into a 70ish mile day.

I now have 5 weeks to go until a family holiday so, hopefully, I haven't lost too much time and I can make some progress.

Managed to knock 30secs off my 10 PB so pretty happy.   Back on it this week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 March, 2017, 01:10:08 pm
That's a significant improvement.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 15 March, 2017, 08:08:55 pm
i seem to have constant muscle soreness since i started tr workouts. i wonder if the intensity is too high not letting me to recover. base training ends next week, time to start a "build" thread? :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 21 March, 2017, 08:25:42 pm
Finished a Sufferfest workout for the first time this year.... so beginning to feel like I might be able to get back to where I need to be, still hard to imagine doing it with an FTP of 250, still less 270 which is what I could (just about) achieve then :(

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5562239-sufferfest-a-very-dark-place-pre-6-13-

What's particular hard to deal with is that I have been riding through the winter (OK, not long rides, but still) so the decline is all down to making too close acquaintance with 60. Oddly (?) I haven't noticed any decrease in MHR which still appears to be 185.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 March, 2017, 10:29:16 pm
200k at the weekend, first since 4 months. I'd say it went as well as can be expected given the month break.

Should set me up for 300k this weekend. I had two rest days then had rowing training this evening. Aiming to train again tomorrow, again on Thursday, and then a rest day friday.

TSS figure based on HR seems wildly high for Saturday's ride. Implies an IF of 0.77 for >9h on the bike. I don't think that's feasible.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 21 March, 2017, 10:46:15 pm
200k at the weekend, first since 4 months. I'd say it went as well as can be expected given the month break.

Should set me up for 300k this weekend. I had two rest days then had rowing training this evening. Aiming to train again tomorrow, again on Thursday, and then a rest day friday.

TSS figure based on HR seems wildly high for Saturday's ride. Implies an IF of 0.77 for >9h on the bike. I don't think that's feasible.

I managed 0.81 over 9h30m on a 200 at the weekend using a power meter so perhaps not that unrealistic...?

I felt my legs empty by the end - struggled just to ride around the block yesterday in the wind testing my USB power and this mornings 3x12m threshold intervals were a real struggle... last interval I almost jacked.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 22 March, 2017, 09:36:44 pm
Yep, what a difference a week makes

Mar 14
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1_b3PGihRKA/WNLtK_VVImI/AAAAAAABAIY/L9-UeaeqM-0FP11g83SG9onKrq53K71lACPcB/s800/HHNF%2B14%2BMar.jpg)


Mar 22
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nCfX7pExp-E/WNLtK2cJ8dI/AAAAAAABAIU/eGeu5uYur9okkA3SGtmw_aQWq0I0SDL4gCPcB/s800/HHNF%2B22%2BMar.jpg)
Mind you, anyone know where Strava gets its speed and distance data from? It's uploaded from TR, but I can't see it anywhere there. It looks reasonable, just wondering if it is output from the Tacx, or calculated somehow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 22 March, 2017, 09:47:56 pm
I "believe" that TR has now added in a distance and speed estimate into the data it records although it does not show this in the on screen data.
Found it.
Quote
Does TrainerRoad record speed and distance during my workouts?
Yes, but speed and distance are not all that useful when you train indoors. These metrics are often different from the values you’d expect performing the same effort outside.

If you’d like to access estimated speed and distance, you can do so by viewing your completed rides in the desktop app, or by using Ride Sync to upload your ride to TrainingPeaks and Strava.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 22 March, 2017, 10:15:45 pm
Ah thanks - although I still can't find anything in the desktop app. TBH, the speed feels about right, and if that is the case then the "estimated" distance as a factor of speed and time, I'm sort-of keeping a mental note of daily miles on road + trainer, to see how my *rse gets on (cf Health & Fitness), and extrapolate to doing 100k days, thinking I've done 60k+ today feels quite reassuring even if I haven't ;) https://www.strava.com/activities/910455682
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 22 March, 2017, 10:35:26 pm
I tried to break in a B17 on the turbo using TR and it was not the same as riding in the real world... more bumps and vibrations off the road... may be similar effect to other body parts!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 March, 2017, 10:50:19 pm
Vo2max intervals tonight. Lactic burn.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 March, 2017, 07:58:34 am
new FTP on over and under last night according to training peaks!  tonight is threshold boost.  5minute intervals at FTP x 6.
It is interesting that the pain seems to be changing.  until now the pain has been so severe I had to drop power massively and then recover but the pain is changing so I can live with the pain for longer.  Just adaptation i suspect but interesting as I go through it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 March, 2017, 08:49:40 am
Muscular endurance is probably improving. Improved lactate clearance so you can still end longer at FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 March, 2017, 09:26:21 am
Quote
Muscular endurance is probably improving
I think that is probably correct.  I have done a number of endurance rides on the turbo so 2-3 hours at constant heart rate which is far harder than a 2-3 hour ride outside as there are no natural breaks. first time I did 3 hours on the turbo at a constant HR of 132-134 my legs hurt for days afterwards whereas now it is a lot easier.

I also perversely find it easier mentally to do a zone 2 ride on the turbo for 3 hours than a 3 hour ride in the rain and cold in zone 2.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 24 March, 2017, 08:25:33 pm
new record sprint powers. 5 sec - 883W    10 seconds 782W   on trainerroad.

Nice feeling when it starts to pay off. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 March, 2017, 08:37:51 pm
300km tomorrow will provide a couple of weeks TSS in one hit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 March, 2017, 06:01:49 pm
A few weeks back, I think just before my crash I was instructed to do a 4hr ride with my HR 155-165 with a few harder efforts mixed in.   Given this is mid-upper tempo for me it's probably 100 mile TT effort.

After 2 hrs I just couldn't get my HR into zone.  I blamed the fact it was a bit cold and windy.   Coach said not enough carbs.   I had taken on a gel every hour and eaten a decent breakfast so I wasn't so sure.   Today I did a similar effort but with 4 * 10 mins running my HR at 170 in each hour.   I carried more food - bars and gels - and ate at defined intervals.   Lo and behold no drop off and lifted HR right to the end.   Of course I'm now knackered.

I went back and looked at my stats for the 3 100 mile TTs I did last year and I had a drop off in performance in the second half of all 3.   Looks like I'll be taking more food along on the next ones.  Just shows you can miss basic things.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 28 March, 2017, 02:25:04 pm
started a new build phase (does it mean this post is off topic? :) ) today with a re-test of ftp. compared to my previous one that has been done on the neo, it increased by 6w, but as neo over-reads by ~13-15w when compared to stages, the actual improvement is more like 20w, which i'm pleased about! also, paced it better this time, however i was still overheating a bit, which resulted in max hr lower by 12bpm. onwards and upwards with a new 280w ftp.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 March, 2017, 02:47:41 pm
You're around 68kg, is that right? So that's 4.1w/kg.  :thumbsup:

I'm going to re-test next week. I should have recovered from 200k & 300k weekends by then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 28 March, 2017, 03:11:41 pm
You're around 68kg, is that right? So that's 4.1w/kg.  :thumbsup:

that's correct! :) (my goal for the build phase is to get to 4.5)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 31 March, 2017, 11:52:09 am
I did my first TR session since The Dean last night. Heavy legs right from the start, it was tough. Managed to get through though.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5637304-jepson

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 31 March, 2017, 09:14:04 pm
Well, Rubber Gloved (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5644639-sufferfest-rubber-glove) it again and I'm back up to 265. I'm sure that's a good thing.

(Despite issues with the erg setting at the beginning of the interval, and a flaky cadence  sensor)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 14 April, 2017, 08:52:08 am
Just over 20hrs last week, including taking over a minute off my 25 PB.

12hrs in the first 4 days of this week and a rest day today.   Will ride to my parents tomorrow for a 170 mile day that will take me to over 20hrs this week as well to complete this block.   6 days off then, before starting another build towards the longer distances.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 April, 2017, 09:46:10 am
I was getting some progress so now I have a cold.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 20 April, 2017, 09:23:53 pm
New FTP without trying on a set of threshold intervals so really please with how the training is going.  i really struggle with FTP tests so run trainer road about 20-30 watts above what i have recorded as my FTP.  So running trainneroad at FTP of 240 and training peaks tells me that i have a new FTP tonight of 218 on a set of threshold intervals.

I just can't be arsed to hurt myself that much for the 20 minutes on a turbo.  One day i will get there as i am enjoying the training more and more. 

i do find at 58 that i need more total recovery days.  I now often need 3 days to recover instead of 2 and at the end of a block of work i can take 5 -7 days off and come back stronger.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 April, 2017, 10:11:41 pm
I'm back! Recovered from lurgy and did 6x6m sweet-spot just now.

It felt pretty easy though HR was a little higher than last time I did this specific workout. Probably mainly the effect of a week and a bit off training on blood volume. If so then my HR should be lower again after a few more sessions.

We have a rowing training camp this weekend so plenty of training load to accumulate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 April, 2017, 12:15:14 am
New FTP without trying on a set of threshold intervals so really please with how the training is going.  i really struggle with FTP tests so run trainer road about 20-30 watts above what i have recorded as my FTP.  So running trainneroad at FTP of 240 and training peaks tells me that i have a new FTP tonight of 218 on a set of threshold intervals.

I just can't be arsed to hurt myself that much for the 20 minutes on a turbo.  One day i will get there as i am enjoying the training more and more. 

i do find at 58 that i need more total recovery days.  I now often need 3 days to recover instead of 2 and at the end of a block of work i can take 5 -7 days off and come back stronger.

Have you tried the 2x8m test? You have to go harder for 8m (twice). I find it easier to pace.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 21 April, 2017, 09:14:30 am
New FTP without trying on a set of threshold intervals so really please with how the training is going.  i really struggle with FTP tests so run trainer road about 20-30 watts above what i have recorded as my FTP.  So running trainneroad at FTP of 240 and training peaks tells me that i have a new FTP tonight of 218 on a set of threshold intervals.

I just can't be arsed to hurt myself that much for the 20 minutes on a turbo.  One day i will get there as i am enjoying the training more and more. 

i do find at 58 that i need more total recovery days.  I now often need 3 days to recover instead of 2 and at the end of a block of work i can take 5 -7 days off and come back stronger.

Have you tried the 2x8m test? You have to go harder for 8m (twice). I find it easier to pace.

^^ This, I quite like the 8min format.  I bit the bullet and tested again yesterday, first 8min felt a bit too comfortable, I gave it a fair bit more out of the comfort on the second interval and I've got an improvement of just over 10W on my FTP... it's so much better than the 20m protocol... whether they yield the same overall result who knows, but as long as you use the same protocol I would expect it would be fine... I'm presently procrastinating over spending 70mins on TR this morning  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 21 April, 2017, 09:30:36 am
i choose to suffer through the 20min test because it's more in line with the cycling i'm doing. 2x8min is recommended for crit racers, track riders, hill climbers.

i do find at 58 that i need more total recovery days.  I now often need 3 days to recover instead of 2 and at the end of a block of work i can take 5 -7 days off and come back stronger.

my dad is a few years older and also finds he needs a bit more recovery, two days after an intensive session is not always enough. imo, there should be an option to enter your age in trainerroad and the schedules should be adjusted accordingly. fwiw, he raised his ftp from 194 just before christmas to 231 now and targeting 250 in summer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 April, 2017, 12:42:20 pm
I hope that at some point they will add the ability to make the plans more dynamic and adjustable to your training load, and in particular to have a better way of accounting for outdoor miles. Adjusting for age isn't a bad idea; though YMMV and two 60 year old riders with different training backgrounds will respond differently.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 April, 2017, 08:54:22 pm
Making a start on the next block of training this week.   Been sent a nice mixture of sessions that are now longer with smidges of top end work.   

Last weeks break seems to have done the trick and I feel pretty fresh.

13 weeks to the 24hr.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 April, 2017, 10:59:52 pm
Frustrated ATM. Haven't really progressed recently. Hoping for a lurgy free period. I've still got a productive cough hanging over from being ill over Easter. Bah.

Brevet Cymru this weekend. Wonder how that will go.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 April, 2017, 03:19:58 pm
Well, I had a poor night's sleep so was a DNS - helped on another event instead.

Today my punishment was this:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5837361-leconte

At the end the workout text said "Well DONE. That was Brutal... in fact it's one of the hardest workouts in our catalogue"

So I'm feeling slightly less behind the curve now. Onwards and upwards.

(I failed to complete this one a year ago - my FTP was set a bit too high at the time, so I never got to see that message)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 01 May, 2017, 10:22:36 am
I've been fairly consistently following the plan for the last 6 months.
I have not enjoyed it much at all, and have very much felt like I was getting slower.
Here's a lovely graph of how much I have totally wasted my time :
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/Screenshot_20170501-101704.png)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 01 May, 2017, 12:03:28 pm
Things progressing well for me, hacked 25" of my PB for a 10 yesterday. Compared with last year on the same course when I set the previous PB all the other riders that rode both evens (16) went up to 2 minutes slower apart from one who improved by 1" so on a good day I reckon there's another 30"+ to come of that.

First big test will be the Norlond 50 in two weeks time.

EDIT: I am off on a 5! Shurely shome mistake? Never been higher than a 2 or 7 before, even in a middle markers event...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 May, 2017, 04:27:31 pm
I've been fairly consistently following the plan for the last 6 months.
I have not enjoyed it much at all, and have very much felt like I was getting slower.
Here's a lovely graph of how much I have totally wasted my time :
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/Screenshot_20170501-101704.png)

And this is where data chasing doesn't really work for everyone.   For what we do - and I'll admit I don't know what your goals are for this year - VO2max and FTP matter very little.   I have no idea what my stats were or what they are now, but my PBs are coming down and I *feel* a lot better on the bike.

You're not really supposed to enjoy training but if the process gets you down there's many ways of improving fitness and some of them are quite pleasant.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 04 May, 2017, 04:17:21 pm
My FTP went down relentlessly whilst following the Zwift FTP builder plan. Was dispiriting. I ended up getting a bit of coaching. He basically looks over what I do via training peaks, sends me PMs via facebook, and we go for coffee every 6-8 weeks. He mostly sets me TSS and intensity factor goals, but recently has been getting me doing all out sprint intervals a few times a week.

(http://thumbsnap.com/t/3xeEH6oL.jpg) (http://thumbsnap.com/3xeEH6oL)
(http://thumbsnap.com/t/GIkTgAPz.jpg) (http://thumbsnap.com/GIkTgAPz)

I use Today's Plan rather than Training Peaks, and I don't have WKO, so can't see all the metrics he looks at. However, I am pleased with the progression in 60m w/kg.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 May, 2017, 04:29:02 pm
Was absolutely smashed, cumulatively, by last night.   2 easy days and a complete rest on Saturday, followed by a 50m TT Sunday morning.   Let's see how that goes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 May, 2017, 05:43:48 pm
My FTP went down relentlessly whilst following the Zwift FTP builder plan. Was dispiriting. I ended up getting a bit of coaching. He basically looks over what I do via training peaks, sends me PMs via facebook, and we go for coffee every 6-8 weeks. He mostly sets me TSS and intensity factor goals, but recently has been getting me doing all out sprint intervals a few times a week.

(http://thumbsnap.com/t/3xeEH6oL.jpg) (http://thumbsnap.com/3xeEH6oL)
(http://thumbsnap.com/t/GIkTgAPz.jpg) (http://thumbsnap.com/GIkTgAPz)

I use Today's Plan rather than Training Peaks, and I don't have WKO, so can't see all the metrics he looks at. However, I am pleased with the progression in 60m w/kg.

Nice graph. My best 1h NP is 254W from May 7 last year. I was about 80kg, so 3.175w/kg or so. Unfortunately not as fit now.

Also you can see a progression with that workout - NP 234, 249, 254 as I got stronger over 2 months.

The one I did on Sunday was the 1h30 version. NP of 222 for 1h30. I once managed NP of 242 for 1h30, still got some room to improve for sure.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 04 May, 2017, 10:16:34 pm
....................
I use Today's Plan rather than Training Peaks, and I don't have WKO, so can't see all the metrics he looks at. However, I am pleased with the progression in 60m w/kg.

Do you know if you can import from Training peaks data in to Today's plan?

I was thinking about taking a look and comparing what the two look like.  I'm not using any particular plans other than trying to fit Trainerroad plans in around Audax's whilst aiming to keep the Form in a a sensible place, but over the past two weeks or so, the form it says isn't matching how I've been feeling (though could bit a bit of illness in the background at the moment) I've been finding the stravistix multisport fitness graph more representative even though I have my HR and Power zones mirrored across all the platforms.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 05 May, 2017, 11:24:08 am
....................
I use Today's Plan rather than Training Peaks, and I don't have WKO, so can't see all the metrics he looks at. However, I am pleased with the progression in 60m w/kg.

Do you know if you can import from Training peaks data in to Today's plan?

I was thinking about taking a look and comparing what the two look like.  I'm not using any particular plans other than trying to fit Trainerroad plans in around Audax's whilst aiming to keep the Form in a a sensible place, but over the past two weeks or so, the form it says isn't matching how I've been feeling (though could bit a bit of illness in the background at the moment) I've been finding the stravistix multisport fitness graph more representative even though I have my HR and Power zones mirrored across all the platforms.

Yes, export from Training Peaks (TPe) to Today's Plan (TPl) is a cinch. Once you have all the historic data, you can sync to both simultaneously via Garmin Connect.

I've subscribed to both. Comparing the two, I like the TPe mobile app better (mostly for the weekly CTL / ATL / TSB page - TPe only has it on the desktop), but everything else is a little bit nicer on TPl for me. It's just really nice to use - very polished. TPl has it's automagic plans / sessions, which for me are really good. That aside, both now do workout export to Zwift, and are much of a muchness - except TPl syncs with Zwift automagically - so when you load up Zwift in the morning, the workout for the day is awaiting for you. TPl is a fair chunk cheaper, even with BC discount.

My main criticisms of TPl are that it is endlessly configurable - you can end up displaying so much data you can get lost in it; and that the training plans could be a bit more spiteful. Some of the workouts themselves can be brutal, but they build in a lot of rest, so if you are short of time, it's hard to get a decent ramp rate without lying about your current FTP. I've ended up ignoring their TSS weekly targets, and setting my own and then using the workouts to populate a plan to meet my targets.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 May, 2017, 11:30:42 am
"A bit more spiteful". Nice turn of phrase.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 May, 2017, 08:58:30 pm
Talking of spiteful I did Solomons again today after already having 90 minutes on the water at the rowing club. Surprisingly I didn't struggle. Time for an FTP test. I think I'm approaching the fitness I had at the last PBP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 15 May, 2017, 04:04:53 pm
Something is working this year anyway.....   Easy week and a 400k on Saturday which I'll ride on the TT bike and aim to not stop much.

Next race is then the 12hr on the 11th June.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 16 May, 2017, 12:17:48 am
Something is working this year anyway.....   Easy week and a 400k on Saturday which I'll ride on the TT bike and aim to not stop much.

Next race is then the 12hr on the 11th June.

good luck, i've done a very similar ride couple of weeks ago, one proper stop of ~20min and another half an hour for all the traffic lights, junctions etc.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 May, 2017, 09:18:35 pm
Picket Guard. Nearly completed on target just one back pedal break. As it was the BCM last weekend and I had a 1h30 rowing session earlier - I think I need to retest my threshold.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 22 May, 2017, 02:02:44 pm
Something is working this year anyway.....   Easy week and a 400k on Saturday which I'll ride on the TT bike and aim to not stop much.

That went OK.  Pacing and fuelling fine.

Back on the turbo this week.   3 weeks to the next big test which is the 12hr time trial.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 23 May, 2017, 01:27:57 pm
What turbos are you guys doing all these sessions on? I have read the Obree book (twice), and I've just got a basic turbo (budget restraints and ebay availability mean I now have a Tacx Booster). I'm content with the Obree plan to basically do a 30 minute TT every week plus some road work, log the HR and speed on Strava and see how I improve, but I'm curious about all these fancy plans... ;)
Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 23 May, 2017, 02:23:02 pm
I'm using a Tacx Neo, but the Tacx Vortex smart I had before gave 90% of the experience for 30% of the cost (if you don't mind the noise).

Was pleased to find this in Today's Plan today - The training I've been doing seems to be doing something compared to where I was a year ago (admittedly a bad place)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18595318_10102299028271080_6122368070537202771_o.jpg?oh=924ed15650cf34c9453bfa9585711964&oe=599EB086)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 May, 2017, 10:19:21 pm
So I've got to the end of the base phase, finally. Bryan Chapman and Monmouth Regatta (rowing) out of the way. I struggled on the BCM, missing February hasn't been helpful. However I did OK at Monmouth (HR reached 190 bpm).

Going to test in a day or two. I would have done it today but we did 12km on the water this evening, with lots of race pace work, and I'm pretty knackered now.

I think my fitness is finally coming good - I did 45m easy (Carter) on TrainerRoad last night; HR average was 125bpm. This is the lowest ever for this workout, so I hope this means a decent FTP boost when I test. Perhaps on Thursday.

Then onto the build plan - General Build, I think.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 June, 2017, 09:49:07 pm
Looks like more improvement than hoped for.  :thumbsup:

 :sick:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 June, 2017, 09:53:36 pm
Up from 248W to 269W. Max HR in test was 193.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 02 June, 2017, 09:44:51 am
 :thumbsup:
congratulations
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 22 June, 2017, 04:43:25 pm
Back into shorter/sharper efforts for a couple of weeks to bring a bit of speed in for the National 100 on the 9th July.   The heat hasn't helped the turbo work this week.

Not much left to do after that before the Mersey 24hr.   Seems a bit weird to be this far down the road and almost finished for the year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 June, 2017, 04:56:44 pm
Back into shorter/sharper efforts for a couple of weeks to bring a bit of speed in for the National 100 on the 9th July.   The heat hasn't helped the turbo work this week.

Not much left to do after that before the Mersey 24hr.   Seems a bit weird to be this far down the road and almost finished for the year.

It sounds like it's worked really well for you so far. Best of luck with the National.

I did 3x12m sweet-spot on Monday evening, and reckon I lost 1.5L of fluid. I'm splitting my time with rowing sessions (erg and water) so not doing quite so much on the turbo but about the same total training load.

Mixing it up between some high intensity short intervals and longer stuff on the turbo, with Pendle 600k looming, and then a rowing regatta the following weekend.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 July, 2017, 07:43:36 pm
No more turbo work this season, with one race left.   Packing it away until November.    :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 13 July, 2017, 09:33:54 am
I haven't touched mine for a good few months now. Too much outdoor action on the bike, I am really due a FTP test but with only 2 weeks till LEL I might not bother....... I'm not missing the turbo  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 July, 2017, 09:36:13 pm
New PB for 3 minute power. Then another in the same workout.  :smug:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 20 July, 2017, 12:46:21 am
New Xert app on Garmin IQ is quite nice, came up with 271 for my FTP, which is a couple of watts over where I tested 6-7weeks ago, I'll take that for now given how close I am to LEL and I CBA with the pain cave!

Worth checking it out if you have a Garmin with IQ capability.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 July, 2017, 08:33:52 am
My last test was 269. Not sure I CBA to test again before LEL now. The information wouldn't tell me much as I'm not going to have a power meter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 July, 2017, 12:16:30 pm
So the progression of peak 3m power is:

2015 - 306w
2016 - 321w
2017 - 334w

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 14 September, 2017, 11:41:38 pm
After a couple of basically sedentary months (bike fit & mojo issues) I've started a TrainerRoad sweet spot base plan, but also decided to ride every day in September , filling the rest days with 'avctive recovery'.

So far, so good - 14 days done & feeling good, will retest for ftp next month
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 September, 2017, 11:57:39 pm
I'm currently using the trainer mainly for cross training for rowing, working on base fitness. Not following a TR plan as such.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 15 September, 2017, 01:52:44 pm
I've been fettling the stuff in the gym spare room today, getting ready for dark evenings on the turbo.

I've restarted my TrainerRoads sub, and got the Concept 2 linked to Strava. I've stuck a Rasp Pi on the back of the TV on the wall, running KODI, so we can watch You Tube video playlists, as well as any of the films from the media server on the network.

Bring on the Snow!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 15 September, 2017, 03:27:15 pm
TT bike is on the turbo but just for fettling purposes.

In theory I start training again on the 6th November.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 15 September, 2017, 06:03:12 pm
I started my base training a fortnight ago with 3x56 mile round trip commutes per wee, this goes up to 4 times a week next week. Trainer road will be for the wet days and then intervals start after Xmas. I'll try not to break any bones this winter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 15 September, 2017, 06:05:50 pm
I started my base training a fortnight ago with 3x56 mile round trip commutes per wee, this goes up to 4 times a week next week. Trainer road will be for the wet days and then intervals start after Xmas. I'll try not to break any bones this winter.

Either that's a lot of commuting, or you have a massive bladder  :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 15 September, 2017, 06:44:17 pm
 ;D
I started my base training a fortnight ago with 3x56 mile round trip commutes per wee, this goes up to 4 times a week next week. Trainer road will be for the wet days and then intervals start after Xmas. I'll try not to break any bones this winter.

Either that's a lot of commuting, or you have a massive bladder  :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 September, 2017, 09:37:31 pm
I just put a Kinetic thru axle onto my road bike so as I could get it in the trainer. It' only just fitted!
I bought the turbo with the intention of following the Obree book, but I'm probably just going to explore the concept of getting up early and turboing for a few weeks - if I can do it twice a week (and ride on the weekend) then I'll get a Trainer Road sub (I like their podcasts and I prefer the high tech approach to turning myself inside out doing the same thing every week).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 22 September, 2017, 09:09:11 am
Half way through my TR base training plan & it's working as the sweet spot intervals are starting to feel (a bit) too easy. 

Rest & retest my FTP, or just increase the intensity a few %, and retest after completing the plan?  What do other people do?

Cheers
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 03 October, 2017, 06:01:05 pm
Half way through my TR base training plan & it's working as the sweet spot intervals are starting to feel (a bit) too easy. 

Rest & retest my FTP, or just increase the intensity a few %, and retest after completing the plan?  What do other people do?

Cheers

I rested for 3 days then rested, pleased to have increased FTP in that test by 5%, I've set that as my new value which should be fun :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 October, 2017, 09:03:37 pm
When you say "half way", do you mean 3-4 weeks into Sweet Spot Base 1? That's really good going if so. There is a retest baked into the start of Base 2 anyway.
I'm now 4 rides into Sweet Spot Base 1. I find it hard to do the mega spinny bits (and my calves hurt after the single leg drills today), but I'm enjoying the structure.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 03 October, 2017, 10:40:21 pm
Yep, in the 4th week of sweet spot base - generally feeling a nice 'regular effort' boost I think  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 October, 2017, 10:18:51 am
My neighbour complained about the noise of my Turbo yesterday, so I had to stop halfway through the workout. :( First one I've not finished. I'm in the garage, but it's a townhouse and resonates. :(
I'll be trying some sound deadening under the turbo, a box over the top of it (hope I don't cook it), and turning the resistance up to reduce the speed at which I can spin the drum.n Hopefully that will mean I can continue training super early as that's the easiest time to fit into my schedule....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 11 October, 2017, 11:46:54 am
if there is space, you could use a big box that covers rear wheel and the trainer (with two sides removed) and layer the inside with a pronged sound insulation foam.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 October, 2017, 01:21:38 pm
if there is space, you could use a big box that covers rear wheel and the trainer (with two sides removed) and layer the inside with a pronged sound insulation foam.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk
That's the plan  :thumbsup: I'm just not sure of the size of the box yet.
At lunchtime today I got some of these things to go under it and insulate it from the concrete floor: http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/garage-essentials/rolson-6-piece-floor-mat-set-120-x-180cm?_br_psugg_q=floor+mat (I had a halfords voucher to spend)

On the weekend I'm going to build a box out of reasonably solid plywood, put a slot in it for the wheel, line it with foam or felt and drop it over the turbo. I am working on the basis that the foam will reduce echo/resonance and the mass of the box will absorb some of the volume.
If it gets too hot in the box I might try to duct some cool air from my fan in (though I could also remove/open the box during the rest interval periods, 'cos it's far less noisy at low rpm).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 12 October, 2017, 09:39:13 am
My neighbour complained about the noise of my Turbo yesterday, so I had to stop halfway through the workout. :( First one I've not finished. I'm in the garage, but it's a townhouse and resonates. :(
I'll be trying some sound deadening under the turbo, a box over the top of it (hope I don't cook it), and turning the resistance up to reduce the speed at which I can spin the drum.n Hopefully that will mean I can continue training super early as that's the easiest time to fit into my schedule....

That's one of the reasons I don't use my turbo: in a second floor flat, it's just too loud and makes the place shake, even when using plenty of rubber matting. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 12 October, 2017, 04:30:08 pm
The rubber matting plus the increase in setting on the Turbo resolved the problem without a need for a box. I tried it today (at a reasonable time), and my neighbour said it was much improved and barely noticeable. :)

I might try to build a suitable box at some point, but it's much less urgent. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 12 October, 2017, 06:40:27 pm
I wouldn't bother with teh box, more chance of something going wrong with a fast spinny thing when you don't want it to and ending in tears/pain/cost :)

Good that you and the neighbour were able to reach an agreement on noise level from the matting  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 November, 2017, 02:14:11 pm
I finished the first 5 weeks of Sweet Spot Base 1, and the last week is a recovery week. I'm finding it really hard to be motivated for the recovery rides (not helped by my right knee being sore - my right leg isn't as strong as my left). Any tips?
I might do my FTP test this weekend instead of the 1.5 hour recovery ride - I don't think I'll be able to fit it in with work on Tuesday, and I'd like to keep to 1 hr Tuesday and Thursday and 1.5 on Saturday. That will tell me how much I've improved (I feel faster, but...)! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 November, 2017, 09:25:33 am
I did my FTP test yesterday.  I've still not got the hang of the 8 minute ones. The first one, I pushed myself really hard, averaged 222W (my previous FTP was 170) and I could barely see at the end! I recovered OK in the 10 minute valley before the second effort, but it felt much too long and I was cold by the second one (I need to get a remote adjustable fan).  On the second one, I put it into too big a gear, failed to spin it up properly and ended up mashing for a minute or 2 before my ITB got tight and I quit and just span along to finish the workout.
My new FTP was calculated on the average of the 2 efforts, so i came out lower than before! :(
I didn't realise it was calculated on the average of the 2 or I wouldn't have bailed on it. I've manually set it for 190W.
Does anyone else use the 8 minute test?  I think I will try the 20 minute test next time...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 06 November, 2017, 09:42:32 am
I use the 8 minute test, mostly because I'm not supposed to maintain max output for long periods (eg: 20 minutes), doctors orders.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6489603-8-minute-ftp-test

The knack is in the pacing - you'll see from the above I was able to push harder in the second effort because I'd not gone too crazy in the first. Practice helps.

(You can also see my FTP is shite - I have work to do over the winter!)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 November, 2017, 10:00:02 am
That link is private, so I can't see your ride.
The first 8 minute FTP test I did was this:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6535285-8-minute-ftp-test
You can see that the first leg was too easy and I raised it, and then the second one was still a bit on the easy side and ramped up.
Yesterdays was this:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6776343-8-minute-ftp-test
You can see that the first time around my cadence was mid 90s, and then high 80s for the second half, but the second time around I got the power above 200 but the cadence was low 80s - I think that's why I couldn't push the gear and my ITB seized up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on 06 November, 2017, 10:14:04 am
For an 8-minute max effort, my cadence would have to be well over 100 RPM. Curious if you’ve tried significantly higher cadences.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 06 November, 2017, 10:20:26 am
That link is private, so I can't see your ride.

Doh! Shouldn't be now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 06 November, 2017, 10:22:20 am
I prefer the 8min test also, whilst its twice, its not as long. Plus the first effort allows you to work at just above threshold by what ever you guess might be improvement and then up or lower for the second session.

I've not done a test since before LEL and really should do one.  I have recently been using Xert which uses your power meter based rides to derive an FTP, mine is still there or thereabouts but it certainly feels a lot more of an effort to keep going now my pre-LEL fitness isn't there... I'm not sure when I did my last FTP, I think it was May! when I was around 269W https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/5948610

(https://images2.imgbox.com/cf/b8/aLqFukvm_o.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/aLqFukvm)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 November, 2017, 11:24:40 am
It's easier to pace if you know what the target is. After a while away, or a big improvement between tests, pacing gets tricky.

TR do advise that if you overcook in the first and there's a big drop in the second effort as a result, you will probably underestimate your FTP. I don't think it's possible to over-test so if anything your score would be higher, rather than lower, with a perfectly paced test.

This was my most recent 8-minute test:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6506392-8-minute-ftp-test

I cocked up the pacing because of a drop in fitness caused by more racing than training, plus using a new power meter which reads lower than the Kickr. So I struggled a bit in the second interval.

Fitness has dropped further since due to injury + lurgy.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 November, 2017, 11:54:01 am
I could probably have hung on to 200W for the second 8 minutes if I wasn't concerned that my ITB would cause knee instability and do more harm than good. I'm foam rollering and doing glute exercises to help with that, but... I know I'm better than I was on the first test I did 6 weeks ago, and I also undercooked that one, so I was expecting to hold 215W or so, but I followed the guidance and didn't pick a target wattage - I just rode as hard as I could for 8 minutes. :) I guess that's why that first test spent quite a lot of time at 230W ish.  ::-) I should probably have just tried to maintain 215 for the 2 periods of 8 minutes.  As a result of messing up the test, I'm going to use a manual FTP at 190 and see if I can complete the workouts at that level - if not then I'll drop it down a bit at a time until I can. I can't fit another test in on Tuesday - gotta go to Manchester with work (which is why I started on Sunday).

I find it harder to ride high cadences on the turbo than outside - part of the reason is that to keep the noise lower I'm lifiting the resistance on the turbo unit and using lower gears. I'm rebuilding my fixie, so once that's done I'll go outside and spin like a lunatic (when the weather is nice and I don't have a TR ride scheduled) - I think that's only got a 68" gear. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 06 November, 2017, 05:47:58 pm
I certainly could not do a 20 minute interval at 100+ cadence. I am now generally doing my workouts at about 85-90 for the sweet spot intervals. I find once I get to 100 though the endurance really falls off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 November, 2017, 12:28:53 pm
After 4mths of no high intensity work but quite a few long rides my first training plan started again yesterday.

I'm not going to race until at least April so looking at a 5mth build and recondition.   At least I'm starting at a lower weight this time round.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 07 November, 2017, 02:05:24 pm
After 4mths of no high intensity work but quite a few long rides my first training plan started again yesterday.

I'm not going to race until at least April so looking at a 5mth build and recondition.   At least I'm starting at a lower weight this time round.

Aiming to start tonight. 4 months base, then 2 months build and 2 months 'finish'. Next 'events' for me are bithday ride, tan hill, Deano's mixed terrain and a work ride I organizing for May. They'll have to fit in, but I should be ready to ride properlyish after I've done the events;)

Still trying to work out how to weave running in without falling foul of the pool and starting triathlon (as suggested by a helpful colleague yesterday)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 07 November, 2017, 04:32:55 pm
Trainer Roads base Wk 1 starts tonight. 8 min FTP. Again.

PBP 2019 campaign started last week - a somewhat painful tandem 200 followed by a more painful fixed 100. There's much work to be done; I'm flabby and weak.

ETA: W00t! up to 195W. As a fat, ex 40-a-day, borderline alcoholic knocking on 60, I'm not sure what a realistic target is. Just keep training and see what happens I guess.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 November, 2017, 07:32:42 pm

PBP 2019 campaign started last week.


Bugger.   Is that coming round again ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 07 November, 2017, 07:35:12 pm

PBP 2019 campaign started last week.


Bugger.   Is that coming round again ?

Not really - I just need a loooooooong run up  ::-) :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 November, 2017, 08:35:59 pm
PBP isn’t on my radar yet. I’m supposed to be raising my game for rowing but have been injured and ill for 5 weeks now so it’s not happening.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 November, 2017, 08:39:11 pm

PBP 2019 campaign started last week.


Bugger.   Is that coming round again ?

Not really - I just need a loooooooong run up  ::-) :D

See you in France.   I should do a few more audaxes this year for a bit of variety.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 07 November, 2017, 09:03:28 pm
I thought I'd start again today. Checked everything through. Calibrated. Recognised that I wasn't as fit as back in March, so thought I'd reduce my FTP from 265 to 220, to give me a chance. Loaded up Sufferfest Angels (apart from it being my fave in terms of workout and music I was having major technology issues the last time I trained, so thought I'd start with the same one)

Nice warm up out the way. it quickly got tougher than I was hoping. I chickened out after a half hour, a quivering sweaty mess. It was only then that this div noticed FTP was still set at 265. Bah. (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6793030-sufferfest-angels)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 November, 2017, 03:54:36 pm
Today I did my first workout with the FTP set to 190.  It was hard but I didn't get totally destroyed, so that sounds OK (or maybe very slightly low - will give it a few more rides before I up it).
The workout was Ebbets, so it involves 5 seconds bursts at >150% of FTP. I only have a dumb trainer, so I've got to change up a couple of gears and then spin it up - this means that my 5 second intervals appear as spikes rather than squares on the chart. Should I try to hold the highest power for 5 seconds, even if it takes a few seconds to get there?
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6806683-ebbetts

Also, how do you guys deal with cold on the trainer? I start my trainer ride at 6am (in the garage), and I need the fan when I'm in the middle of a hard interval, but it makes my arms, hands, and face cold, especially in the recovery valleys. I've been wearing a jacket until I warm up and then taking it off, but it feels weird to wear a long sleeve jersey and have to keep zipping and unzippping...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 09 November, 2017, 04:49:01 pm
PBP isn’t on my radar yet. I’m supposed to be raising my game for rowing but have been injured and ill for 5 weeks now so it’s not happening.

Oh, really...!

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=92496.msg1908792#msg1908792

 ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 November, 2017, 05:12:55 pm
PBP isn’t on my radar yet. I’m supposed to be raising my game for rowing but have been injured and ill for 5 weeks now so it’s not happening.

Oh, really...!

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=92496.msg1908792#msg1908792

 ;)

https://www.strava.com/activities/376919468

I enjoyed PBP 2015 but my Audax mojo has gone since I got into rowing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 09 November, 2017, 05:44:00 pm

Also, how do you guys deal with cold on the trainer? I start my trainer ride at 6am (in the garage), and I need the fan when I'm in the middle of a hard interval, but it makes my arms, hands, and face cold, especially in the recovery valleys. I've been wearing a jacket until I warm up and then taking it off, but it feels weird to wear a long sleeve jersey and have to keep zipping and unzippping...

For my part, I'm not too bothered by the cold, so I tend to have a fleece which I only wear before in the v cold for a short while when I'm warming up (ordinary cold I don't wear it before), sweat like a Trump acolyte under Mueller's gaze during, and put the fleece on after.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 November, 2017, 07:27:41 pm

Also, how do you guys deal with cold on the trainer? I start my trainer ride at 6am (in the garage), and I need the fan when I'm in the middle of a hard interval, but it makes my arms, hands, and face cold, especially in the recovery valleys. I've been wearing a jacket until I warm up and then taking it off, but it feels weird to wear a long sleeve jersey and have to keep zipping and unzippping...

For my part, I'm not too bothered by the cold, so I tend to have a fleece which I only wear before in the v cold for a short while when I'm warming up (ordinary cold I don't wear it before), sweat like a Trump acolyte under Mueller's gaze during, and put the fleece on after.

Warm up in a base layer.   Take it off before the first interval.   Put it back on again for the warm down.

I do train in the TT position, though, so have to wear gloves to stop my fingers from getting cold.   Frankly, it looks ridiculous when I'm bare chested.   Still, what happens in the garage stays in the garage.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: dim on 09 November, 2017, 08:53:35 pm
on a side note .... (most probably a lot of bollocks as wind etc also plays a huge part, but I'm a sucker for statistics)  ;D

if you look at your training routes, divide the elevation by the distance .... the higher the result, the more difficult the route (based on the time ridden)... obviously, a 1000km audax ride even if it's on the flats is a tough task

examples....

LEL .... 1441km long and has 11,128m of climbing .... divide elevation by distance and you get a result of 7.72

PBP .... 615km ... elevation 4290m ... result = 6.9

I have a 42km route that I ride often and that has 300m of climbing ... divide 300 by 42 and the result is 7.17

I also have a route of 135km that has an elevation of 1204 meters (my toughest training route) .... divide the two and you get a result of 8.9

just a guideline so take it with a pinch of salt  ;)



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 09 November, 2017, 09:36:52 pm
The direct route from my house to the Lion Inn at Blakey is 18km with 760m of climbing - so that would be a dF (dimFactor) of 42.2  ;D

I don't ride it very often!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 09 November, 2017, 10:02:59 pm
Had another go today, FTP duly turned down (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6811423-sufferfest-angels), only this time software failed abysmally to change the power, which left me using gears and cadence to try and match the power. Which is no fun if you have to drop into top gear and spin up to 120 to try to get 300+ watts. Reported to Trainer Road tech, but I suspect they won't know much (from previous experience) Anyone else get that sort of issue?

(the buggering around at 50m is me trying to see if I could get some response by altering settings, cadence etc)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 November, 2017, 10:05:21 pm
Possibly not in Erg mode.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 November, 2017, 08:09:59 pm
Sounds like my workouts - constant resistance, with the variability provided by gears and cadence. If you've got a trainer that is supposed to vary the resistance (lucky you), then either it's in the wrong mode, or the connection between the computer and the trainer isn't working properly. Trainer Road tech support were pretty good when I asked them about how to restart workouts (I've had 2 get stopped by dripping sweat onto my phone   :facepalm: ).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 November, 2017, 08:53:37 pm
So I got a new trainer - Tacx Neo. I'm surprised at how quiet it is. I'm also impressed at how realistic the simulated inertia feel seems to be.

I did a workout straight off in TrainerRoad and the odd thing was that in erg mode it was about 10-20w high of the target wattage. This was not inaccuracy of reported power (not that I've checked) but of control. So the workout was harder than planned. Never mind.

I updated the FW afterwards, and tried a 4 minute demo workout; problem seems to be fixed.

Odd that a brand new device had such a FW issue. Easily resolved, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 November, 2017, 09:18:28 pm
Nice piece of kit.  Those things are worth more than my bike! :)
Strange that the firmware was bad out of the box, but at least it's all sorted now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 11 November, 2017, 09:22:13 pm
i'm sending my trainer (flux) back to tacx on monday as it has developed a faint rubbing noise - a good excuse for a break and an opportunity to visit blood centre.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 11 November, 2017, 11:42:12 pm
So I got a new trainer - Tacx Neo. I'm surprised at how quiet it is. I'm also impressed at how realistic the simulated inertia feel seems to be.

I did a workout straight off in TrainerRoad and the odd thing was that in erg mode it was about 10-20w high of the target wattage. This was not inaccuracy of reported power (not that I've checked) but of control. So the workout was harder than planned. Never mind.

I updated the FW afterwards, and tried a 4 minute demo workout; problem seems to be fixed.

Odd that a brand new device had such a FW issue. Easily resolved, though.

They do look nice. I bought a discounted Bushido last year - I appreciate that both that and the Neo generate their own electrickery - and it's been very good. It is better in higher gears/speed though and, perhaps fortunately, does simulate quite as steep a hill as the Neo.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 13 November, 2017, 10:18:24 pm
ftp day today; didn't pace very well and paid the price in the final third of the test. i'll do a 2x8min next week to see how well the two compare

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/cb4a4865f5cf1e6fd915fbc5728d668d.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 November, 2017, 10:10:34 am
I did Huffaker this morning. Wow that was hard. After the first 2 workouts of SSB2, I was wondering if I'd set my FTP a little too low. Hell no!  :sick:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6844210-huffaker-

I'm gonna get a remote control power switch for my fan. That way when I'm getting cold I can turn it off!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 November, 2017, 08:37:27 pm
Back in. Enforced >24h without food Sunday => Monday led to heavy legs. Decided test would be a waste of time so did this. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6850485-abbot

Turned it down by 15% as was a bit tough. Given the tired legs it’s probably too early to say I need to drop FTP further. HR got to 193 so still proving that formula is fairly useless.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 14 November, 2017, 10:38:56 pm
Had a poor TR 20 min FTP attempt tonight. Lower than I manage outside when not really trying. Bit weary, but wondering if I need some cooling too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 15 November, 2017, 05:04:04 am
Almost 6 weeks since my spill and orthopaedic consultant at yesterday's fracture clinic suggested that I could get back on the turbo as soon as my shoulder coped with it. I won't be back on the road for another 6 months though because it wouldn't cope another impact until then.

My new turbo was delivered yesterday,  an Elite Direto smart trainer, which will get set up inside. Mrs PC won't let me train in the garage at the moment as she needs to hear if I fall off! My plan now, after 6 weeks of detraining will be 4 weeks of gentle spinning the legs round and calorie counting to lose 4 kg, then 3 weeks of endurance work (4hr/day) followed by starting the interval training when I go back to work in January.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 November, 2017, 03:53:05 pm
Had a poor TR 20 min FTP attempt tonight. Lower than I manage outside when not really trying. Bit weary, but wondering if I need some cooling too.

Cooling is pretty much essential indoors. Your performance will suffer as the body spends more energy removing waste heat and also limits your work rate in order to avoid dangerous overheating.

I have an 18" floor fan which provides a good airflow, with 3 speed settings.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 November, 2017, 07:07:29 pm
Had a poor TR 20 min FTP attempt tonight. Lower than I manage outside when not really trying. Bit weary, but wondering if I need some cooling too.

Cooling is pretty much essential indoors. Your performance will suffer as the body spends more energy removing waste heat and also limits your work rate in order to avoid dangerous overheating.

I have an 18" floor fan which provides a good airflow, with 3 speed settings.
I definitely find fan cooling is necessary for the harder efforts, even if the ambient temperature is close to 0. I got this one - it's really effective, though reasonably loud. https://www.screwfix.com/p/ft45-14ap-18-high-velocity-floor-fan-220-240v/6335t Given the cost of the rest of the indoor training kit I think it's pretty good value!
Do you change the speeds during the ride? Mine has 3 speeds, but the dial is on the back of the fan, so I'd have to get off the bike to change it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 15 November, 2017, 07:23:54 pm
i use the same (or very similar) fan on the max setting with the windows open; i train indoors so the ambient temperature is never below 20deg. i wouldn't mind another fan cooling my back from above/behind.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 15 November, 2017, 11:10:17 pm
Anyone had a romp with Tacx new software beta  yet? first impression of the UI is that it maintains the Tacx tradition of utter and complete shite. right from the off, you need a multi word password to register, of about 14 characters! Mine is something like Fuckthissteamingpileofshite

No indication of the projected costs, no easy to find howto, not much really. The GPS workout sounds as if it might be interesting, but knowing Tack implementation, probably not. apparently the maximum grade of the Tourmalet is.... 56%. Some hill

Can't even see how it links to trainer, but maybe it just does.

https://cloud.tacx.com is where it is if you fancy
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 16 November, 2017, 07:08:01 am
Thanks for the advice on cooling. Base training is postponed until after a trip to Srewfix at the weekend to buy a fan and a long piece of wire.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 November, 2017, 10:29:57 pm
Did Ansel Adams tonight. IF=0.98 for an hour. Felt ok. Maybe my threshold is even set slightly low. Will test soon.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 November, 2017, 08:48:57 am
Did Ansel Adams tonight. IF=0.98 for an hour. Felt ok. Maybe my threshold is even set slightly low. Will test soon.
That looks brutal. If that's easy, maybe your FTP is low...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 18 November, 2017, 11:44:07 am
First lot of over-unders in this cycle.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6879748-tunemah

As you can see, I made a valiant attempt to get started on interval-3 but to no avail - my legs weren't having it!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 18 November, 2017, 12:08:04 pm
Interested in which Trainer Road plans people are following?

Before kicking off when I get my fan in place, I'm trying to decide between 5 days and 3 days. If you're go for 5 I'll undoibtedly replace some sessions with outdoor rides or runs, but if 3 then I'm likely to supplement rather than replace.

Does the experienced audience have a view?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 November, 2017, 12:50:12 pm
Did Ansel Adams tonight. IF=0.98 for an hour. Felt ok. Maybe my threshold is even set slightly low. Will test soon.
That looks brutal. If that's easy, maybe your FTP is low...

Solomons is probably worse; though I don't think easy's the word. I have tended to find workouts of the VO2max type ok, whereas trying to sit near threshold for longer intervals is more challenging. What that suggests is I have decent aerobic capacity but lacked muscular endurance which comes from the threshold and sweet spot work. I've completed Ansel Adams before with my FTP at 280W on the Kickr.

I'm going to pick a couple of longer but easier ones for the weekend. Probably Antelope - 1 or -2 and Junneau - 1 or -2. Then rest on Monday and 2x8m test on Tuesday then start a plan.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 18 November, 2017, 01:35:04 pm
Interested in which Trainer Road plans people are following?

Before kicking off when I get my fan in place, I'm trying to decide between 5 days and 3 days. If you're go for 5 I'll undoibtedly replace some sessions with outdoor rides or runs, but if 3 then I'm likely to supplement rather than replace.

Does the experienced audience have a view?

I create my own plan, using mostly my own workouts created using the excellent workout creator.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 November, 2017, 01:43:54 pm
Interested in which Trainer Road plans people are following?

Before kicking off when I get my fan in place, I'm trying to decide between 5 days and 3 days. If you're go for 5 I'll undoibtedly replace some sessions with outdoor rides or runs, but if 3 then I'm likely to supplement rather than replace.

Does the experienced audience have a view?
I didn't have a lot of miles in my legs to work from, so I wanted to stay "low volume". That's what the podcast seems to recommend, unless you know that you can handle a lot of training stress. Starting with the base seemed logical, so Sweet Spot Base low volume was what I chose.
I've done the first one, and I definitely boosted my FTP.  I'm now 2 weeks into the second one and it's a lot harder, but in a good way. The theory is to do the sustained power build and then see how I go on the 40k TT plan.
Cheers
Duncan
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 November, 2017, 02:28:57 am
Sweet spot high volume is a bit of a brute. So if not already used to a high training load starting with low or mid volume I and then stepping up to mid or high II after 6 weeks makes sense.

I did Geiger today which is three x 12m rolling sweet spot intervals. This felt harder than Ansel Adams and would tend to confirm my theory about a lack of muscular endurance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 November, 2017, 02:30:46 am
First lot of over-unders in this cycle.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6879748-tunemah

As you can see, I made a valiant attempt to get started on interval-3 but to no avail - my legs weren't having it!

Been there. Over unders are one of the toughest forms of workout but they do seem to be effective at raising FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 November, 2017, 12:08:16 pm
So I gave myself a proper kicking over the weekend, culminating on Sunday with Solomons which is always a brute. Considering I'd done Ansel Adams on Friday, Geiger on Saturday, this was quite hard work though I hung in there and completed all the intervals.

I now need a rest day or two. Absolutely wiped out today.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 November, 2017, 12:39:09 pm
First lot of over-unders in this cycle.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6879748-tunemah

As you can see, I made a valiant attempt to get started on interval-3 but to no avail - my legs weren't having it!

Been there. Over unders are one of the toughest forms of workout but they do seem to be effective at raising FTP.
I quite like the over-unders (relatively speaking). It's the VO2 max stuff I find hardest. My upcoming week looks like it consists entirely of one or the other:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4571/38484601876_11754ff852_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21CKDmy)2017-11-20_12-30-49 (https://flic.kr/p/21CKDmy) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

Your last 3 days sounds like hell!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 November, 2017, 02:08:17 pm
Solomons is one I discovered quite early on and it’s my favourite workout to get a heap of TSS in after missing some training. I’ve yet to be brave enough to try its big brother, Irvine, which adds more intensity and extends the tempo block in the middle at the expense of shorter recoveries in the final block of 2m intervals.

For you workouts this week: mills is ok as the decline in intensity in the second half of the intervals makes them a big more forgiving. In a 2m vo2max interval it tends to be the first 30s are fine then subsequent 30s are progressively harder with the final 30s being challenging.

Jepson is an interesting one. Those 5s bursts are fine - it’s the next 30s that hurt!

Palisade is ok. The ones that I’ve found really tough are Prater and Leconte. They really hurt and will find out a too high FTP setting.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 21 November, 2017, 08:59:14 am
Mills was hard, especially spinning at 100. I might have been able to hang on at 90rpm, but at 100 I had to turn the intensity down a couple of %.
I've done Palisade before and it was OK. Jepson looks interesting - I did Clark last week which was OK - I guess Jepson is going to be harder.
I'm on a dumb trainer with virtual power, so getting the gear ratios right is another complication.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 November, 2017, 09:15:39 pm
So I decided not to test tonight as still carrying a bit of fatigue from the weekend and I don't think I'd learn anything. My FTP is set in the right ball-park.

Instead, I did Ansel Adams again. The fatigue showed and my average HR was 2bpm higher.

I'm starting on sweet spot base mid volume. I chose this because I have got to fit in weights and core work for rowing, and once I my wrist is healed, actually rowing, and the high volume plan leaves little room for other stuff.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 21 November, 2017, 09:37:55 pm
I'm experimenting with Xert again I quite like how it is supposed to extract your FTP from the data without tests but I'm less happy about the lack of explanation of the concepts and methods. 

I'm playing with their fitness planner and also some of their workouts.. but I'm on the fence still.  It doesn't combine all activities as easily as say Training Peaks (so walks and none power based rides all get some form of TSS associated with them on TP).  I'm also a bit confused with how some of the bits work... I managed to exhaust MPA (sort of like how much rechargeable energy you have in the tank) at the weekend on the ride, clearly shown on my Garmin in their app but the data when loaded up does not show the same event as experienced on the road... I just can't get a straight answer out of the user base (they seem to be the only people providing support)....

My Trainer Road comes up for renewal in a couple of weeks.  It worked for my training for LEL so is a known quantity - but there is something about Xert which isn't letting me give up yet.... plus the gamification (medals for break throughs etc) make a ride interesting  :facepalm:

Hmmmm...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 24 November, 2017, 12:58:22 pm
Jepson this morning sucked so badly.  I seem to suffer when it's cold (maybe I should leave my fan off for the warmup and first set), and Fish and Chips last night  didn't help. What was supposed to be a threshold workout was much more of a sweetspot one. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 November, 2017, 01:35:25 pm
I turn the fan off after the warm-up, usually.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 26 November, 2017, 08:18:48 pm
Fan now working - screwfix didn't have any in stock. Much better. Did Goddard 45 tonight as a test and got all the way through without problem.

 TSS 50+ based on an FTP estimated by Garmin at 242 watts. Not sure how representative that I'd really, but it's a starter for 10 anyway. If I struggle to get through sessions then perhaps back it off and if too easy then we'll see.

Thanks for the tips. Next I'll see if I can work out how to post the post ride picture.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 November, 2017, 09:13:15 pm
Fan off for the warmup this morning - much better. I find under/overs easier to do, but make my ITB flare up a bit.
Only problem was that I got a puncture about 20 minutes from the end!  ::-) It made the tyre slip on the roller a little, but I finished the workout making sure I was smooth to minimise slip. No obvious cause for the hole, so I just stuck a new tube in and I'll see how it goes on Tuesday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 November, 2017, 01:23:54 pm
I sucked so badly this morning! Couldn't sustain the first interval at 120% of FTP, and couldn't get anywhere near the power for the second interval. HR went pretty high though (169 - the max I've seen recently was 173 on my over-done FTP test, and I did all of Mills last week with a max of 165). I feel pretty rubbish too (stomach issues), so I'm going to take the week easy and repeat the TR week next week.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6956998-spencer
Hopefully it's a tired/ill thing. It would really suck if it turned out that my puncture and subsequent tube change had affected the way that Virtual Power works. The pressure is almost the same (75psi vs 76 psi a few weeks ago), and I used the quick release to ensure that the roller is in the same place. Makes me want to get a proper power meter to ensure repeatability (among other reasons!).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 November, 2017, 01:59:24 pm
Direct drive smart trainers rock.  Not the cheap option though. Power meter is more versatile as can be used outdoors.

Just finished Mills 45 which is a substitute. I did Sunday’s workout yesterday and feel tired but still was able to turn it up by 5% after the first block of 3.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6959491

Probably will be turning the FTP up soon.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 November, 2017, 03:15:07 pm
A Direct Drive smart trainer is >£700 new. Power meters start around 300, which is verging on affordable.
Sounds like your FTP can go up...

Edit - this looks like a great deal (£285 inc post)
https://www.probikekit.co.uk/cycling-power-meters/4iiii-precision-2.0-3d-power-meter-105-5800-black/11273315.html?affil=awin&utm_source=AWin-78888&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=AffiliateWin&awc=3977_1511883369_4e701a16130b978c910bec4f0f26ad0c

Only question left is if I'm happy with left only.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 28 November, 2017, 06:41:52 pm
so my trainer had to be sent back to netherlands for inspection/repair and is now either stuck in one of parcelforce's depots or gone walkies (it's been two weeks since i've sent it). have been on the phone with pf yesterday and today and they are "still searching". hmm ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 November, 2017, 09:13:49 pm
Which trainer do (did!) you have?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 28 November, 2017, 10:15:36 pm
Which trainer do (did!) you have?
flux; i hope i'll still get it back or otherwise a compensation.
the frustrating part is that i'm missing out on workouts and all the recent gains will be undone.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 28 November, 2017, 10:32:06 pm
I'm thinking of selling my Kickr and buying the newer version.... unsure of what they go for and its blooming heavy!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 November, 2017, 12:41:25 am
I'm thinking of selling my Kickr and buying the newer version.... unsure of what they go for and its blooming heavy!

I saw them going for decent prices (from sellers point of view) on eBay. People
quoting £70 p&p. Much easier if you still have the box.

I sold mine (2015 model) to a local chap for £250 - reckon he got a bargain. Saves postage hassle though.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 29 November, 2017, 07:02:44 am
I'm thinking of selling my Kickr and buying the newer version.... unsure of what they go for and its blooming heavy!
If you look at completed listings on eBay, they seem to be in the 5-600 quid range for the 1st gen kickr.  What's the difference between that and the latest one?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 November, 2017, 09:10:06 am
I'm thinking of selling my Kickr and buying the newer version.... unsure of what they go for and its blooming heavy!
If you look at completed listings on eBay, they seem to be in the 5-600 quid range for the 1st gen kickr.  What's the difference between that and the latest one?

Accuracy, noise, bike compatibility are the big improvements.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 30 November, 2017, 12:19:01 am
Mountfield tonight, after spinning for a bit while the laptop updated itself. following warm up with a bit of endurance and threshhold, 3 x 12 minute intervals at c.85% ftp including low and high cadence practice and a bit of aero on thr drops. Garmin reckoned 26 hours recovery.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 30 November, 2017, 08:37:13 am
Just Brasstown to do tonight to finish the low volume sweet spot base.  Then I am going to take it up to the medium volume sustained power build.  That should take me to the end of January and I may repeat it to take me through to Easter.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 November, 2017, 12:01:34 pm
Spent the first couple of weeks of my re-start buggering about with the resistance on my turbo so I could work by speed/heart rate.   I've spent a load on new kit for the race bike this Winter so still not equipped with a power meter.   Early sessions were, therefore, a bit hit-and-miss.

I then managed to fall off on a greasy roundabout 10 days ago.   Nothing broken but some painful grazing down my right side.

I'm now working quite nicely and racking up 18-20hrs per week.   I'm not going to race until April earliest, so plenty of time to build.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 30 November, 2017, 01:38:29 pm
Rob, 18-20 hours a week!!!!!  I really must realign my priorities!  I am struggling at the moment to do 7 hours a week
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 30 November, 2017, 02:38:19 pm
Rob, 18-20 hours a week!!!!!  I really must realign my priorities!  I am struggling at the moment to do 7 hours a week

Or even 3 or 4....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 November, 2017, 02:47:58 pm
18-20 hours is a lot of volume. Our rowing club is asking for under 10h for the senior squad.

I’m still injured so the trainer time is vital for keeping myself fit in the meantime. I’m on the mid volume base plan which is still having some intensity.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 30 November, 2017, 02:50:46 pm
I am so glad that the rest of us are not managing Rob's level of training.  I felt very inadequate!  part of me would like to see what I could do with that level of training but life does not allow it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 November, 2017, 02:55:37 pm
10hrs commuting
1hr lunchtime ride on a Wednesday
3 sessions on the turbo (Tue & Thu eve + Sun am) each week so roughly 3hrs total
4-5hr road ride on a Saturday

I'd only class the turbo sessions as intense, though, and even then not that high.   I'm coached and don't ask a lot of questions but the focus this Winter seems to be on more volume and less intensity, which I'm fine with.   This time last year was hard and I struggled to finish some sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 November, 2017, 03:00:21 pm
I am so glad that the rest of us are not managing Rob's level of training.  I felt very inadequate!  part of me would like to see what I could do with that level of training but life does not allow it.

Every year I finish still a) married and b) employed is a bonus.

I think this might be my last year of racing for a while.   I find the process of training not that interesting and find myself going through the motions.   Those of you more analytical than myself are probably better with the data crunching.   Then, every now and again, you cross a finish line and are amazed at the speed you can travel at.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 November, 2017, 03:16:18 pm
I'm struggling to do 3.5 hours of (intense) turbo time.
20 hours would kill me!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 30 November, 2017, 04:02:02 pm
Rob, so not that different on turbo time.  The 10 hours of commuting makes the big difference.  I move around during the day which makes commuting difficult.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 November, 2017, 04:21:13 pm
Rob, so not that different on turbo time.  The 10 hours of commuting makes the big difference.  I move around during the day which makes commuting difficult.

Indeed.   There's a chance we'll move office in the Spring and I need to check about facilities.   It has formed the basis of my training for a few years but I now ride it at higher intensity than I used to.    There's a lot of sprinting between traffic lights.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 30 November, 2017, 04:35:15 pm
so my trainer had to be sent back to netherlands for inspection/repair and is now either stuck in one of parcelforce's depots or gone walkies (it's been two weeks since i've sent it). have been on the phone with pf yesterday and today and they are "still searching". hmm ::-)
as the depot cannot locate the box, they've directed me to claims dept. not too hopeful at the moment and it might take up to a month.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 November, 2017, 11:08:24 pm
so my trainer had to be sent back to netherlands for inspection/repair and is now either stuck in one of parcelforce's depots or gone walkies (it's been two weeks since i've sent it). have been on the phone with pf yesterday and today and they are "still searching". hmm ::-)
as the depot cannot locate the box, they've directed me to claims dept. not too hopeful at the moment and it might take up to a month.

Really annoying and frustrating.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 December, 2017, 12:18:46 am
So I'm thinking today's workout (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/5481-tunemah) (Tunemah) looks like it will be too easy.

Then I stumble across this one (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/1816-dana) (Dana).

From the blurb:

Quote
Over-unders are hard when they only push you slightly above FTP, but these brutes will hold you to an even higher performance standard and increase your ability to ride well above FTP before settling back into an effort level only slightly below your FTP.

Work of this nature will challenge your highest-end aerobic power, your muscular endurance, your aerobic base, and your ability to truly suffer - all very valuable to the performance-conscious bike racer.

I did wonder if I was asking too much of myself. I considered attempting the -1 or -2 versions instead. However I decided to go for it, I could always finish early if it was too hard. I found it surprisingly easy* in the end. Though eating Doro Wat as my pre-workout meal (about 2h beforehand) wasn't the smartest choice!

That FTP bump needs to happen soon.

* FSVO easy. I never felt close to cracking, but it did hurt.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 December, 2017, 04:08:39 pm
I was planning on going for a ride outside today and then restarting wk 4 on Tuesday. But it's been fairly horrible outside (except for when I had stuff on around lunch). Now it's getting dark  - can I be bothered to go do some random TR ride in the garage?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 03 December, 2017, 04:44:41 pm
Quote
can I be bothered to go do some random TR ride in the garage?

Definitely. You know you should do it and that you will be letting us all down if you don't and that it will weigh on your conscience.  (I think that is all the pleaser driver triggers I can get into one sentence)

Anyway we have all been out for our long ride this morning before you were up!! (smug look).

My motivation was that our grand daughter was bringing her parents to give granny her birthday present!!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 03 December, 2017, 04:45:31 pm
I was planning on going for a ride outside today and then restarting wk 4 on Tuesday. But it's been fairly horrible outside (except for when I had stuff on around lunch). Now it's getting dark  - can I be bothered to go do some random TR ride in the garage?

Sounds like me - two trips to Leeds to take and recover t'bairn from music, 2 hours sorting the shed with Mrs S and now it's dark and the roads are covered in slippy salt. Oh, and my legs are heavy from yesterdays 10 mile run.

Maybe, or maybe wait to tomorrow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 December, 2017, 05:38:08 pm
Quote
can I be bothered to go do some random TR ride in the garage?

Definitely. You know you should do it and that you will be letting us all down if you don't and that it will weigh on your conscience.  (I think that is all the pleaser driver triggers I can get into one sentence)

Anyway we have all been out for our long ride this morning before you were up!! (smug look).

My motivation was that our grand daughter was bringing her parents to give granny her birthday present!!
Thanks. :)
Sadly I got hijacked into doing some DIY, so I'm not going to get to it now. This morning I had to wait in for a tumbledrier to be delivered, otherwise I would have just got up and got on with it then. I'll do a proper stretch and some core work instead. :)
I'm feeling better, and I should be properly rested for Tuesday though, so no excuses for not getting the VO2 stuff done properly this time.  :-X
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 03 December, 2017, 06:19:24 pm
DuncanM  that was all said tongue in cheek.  I have many problems of a similar nature.  I try to remind myself that it is a hobby and not how I earn my daily crust!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 December, 2017, 06:43:32 pm
Last night’s X factor being put on the telly fixed my lack of fu. Now I’m knackered.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 03 December, 2017, 07:50:36 pm
This autumn was going to be 200+ miles per week centred around my commute but after 5 weeks of doing nothing but rebuilding body bits I managed 2.7 miles in week 1 struggling to beat 5mph. Increased slowly, up to 26 miles last week and this week hit 106 miles with today's 30 miles at 17.6mph. All in virtual Belgium on my new Elite Direto.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 December, 2017, 02:15:28 pm
I got my arse in gear and repeated Spencer (after failing last Tuesday and taking the week off).
I still suck at VO2 intervals, but I got through 4 and a half at 96% intensity before cracking:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7016905-spencer
Darwin on Thursday might be a bit more up my street (4x10 minutes at 95-99% FTP).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 05 December, 2017, 03:37:46 pm
I got my arse in gear and repeated Spencer (after failing last Tuesday and taking the week off).
I still suck at VO2 intervals, but I got through 4 and a half at 96% intensity before cracking:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7016905-spencer
Darwin on Thursday might be a bit more up my street (4x10 minutes at 95-99% FTP).

They're a bit tasty! 3 minutes at 120%. I'm still in the sweet spot stuff, but actually prefer the vo2max type efforts really,

Yesterday, having had a few dismal days I just ran instead (late home from meeting). So, 5.6 miles at 7:17 pace and, based on footpod power meter, 300 watts metabolic cost average power. My bike ftp is considerably lower;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 December, 2017, 08:25:37 pm
I got my arse in gear and repeated Spencer (after failing last Tuesday and taking the week off).
I still suck at VO2 intervals, but I got through 4 and a half at 96% intensity before cracking:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7016905-spencer
Darwin on Thursday might be a bit more up my street (4x10 minutes at 95-99% FTP).

They're a bit tasty! 3 minutes at 120%. I'm still in the sweet spot stuff, but actually prefer the vo2max type efforts really,
Mills is a good introduction to the VO2 stuff - 3 minutes starting at 120% but fading to 115%. Keeping the power there for the full 3 minutes is super hard though. The warmdown was really long though - I don't know why the gaps between intervals aren't bigger (or more intervals stuffed in).
Running is hard work. That sounds like good pace. And it doesn't take as long to get a good workout as a bike ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 December, 2017, 11:13:51 pm
Chaps, Mills is 2 minutes intervals. Spencer is probably a fair bit harder. Mills 45 is the same as Mills but with shorter recoveries.

Have a look at Givens - 3 minute intervals ranging from 110% to 130%. Ouch. I did that a couple of times this year, struggled, the next time I turned it down by 5% and set a 3-minute power PB.




Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 06 December, 2017, 06:04:31 am
Spencer is a version of a classic Billat interval session. My version has a much better warm up and a shorter cool down.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/166650-ak-billat-5x3
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 December, 2017, 09:00:38 am
Chaps, Mills is 2 minutes intervals. Spencer is probably a fair bit harder. Mills 45 is the same as Mills but with shorter recoveries.

Have a look at Givens - 3 minute intervals ranging from 110% to 130%. Ouch. I did that a couple of times this year, struggled, the next time I turned it down by 5% and set a 3-minute power PB.
Good point about Mills - 2 minutes, and down to 110%.  There are 9 of them in an hour though, compared to 5 of the Spencer ones. Givens looks brutal, but at least the 130% ones are in the middle, which should make it slightly more manageable.
Spencer is a version of a classic Billat interval session. My version has a much better warm up and a shorter cool down.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/166650-ak-billat-5x3
That looks just as painful, but hopefully the warmup makes it more doable. Do you follow the TR plans and just switch in your workouts, or do you make your own (or have a coach)?

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 06 December, 2017, 06:53:12 pm
I make my own plan, I don't have a coach but I am a qualified cycling coach and also teach the planning and preparation module of A Level PE course! I mainly ride my created TR workouts with some of the library ones for the less intensive stuff.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 06 December, 2017, 09:03:28 pm
It's funny, is m used to running so fine it easier to sustain a more intensive effort level.

Last night I did most of Goddard - 10 x 30 second vo2 max intervals,  it then the laptop ran out of juice so I just do a couple more 3 minute efforts.

Tonight I did Monitor - 6 x 6 minute sweet spot intervals with 2 minute recoveries. I also increased the ffo setting by a few watts before starting. That 'felt' more like it.

Hoping my Garmin training status will return to productive as the missed sessions last week have thrown it and me off a bit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 December, 2017, 09:17:44 pm
Carter tonight nice and easy 10W+ FTP since two weeks ago yet lower average HR. It’s slowly coming along.

I find the sweet spot stuff like Monitor more demanding. I think that means it’s exposing a weakness - muscular endurance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 06 December, 2017, 10:45:30 pm
Carter tonight nice and easy 10W+ FTP since two weeks ago yet lower average HR. It’s slowly coming along.

I find the sweet spot stuff like Monitor more demanding. I think that means it’s exposing a weakness - muscular endurance.

Yes, my weak spot too. Really a direct consequence of trying to fit training in around a middle aged life. Still, long steady rides and runs  help as do the more intense sustained efforts and threshold sessions. It's just a matter of time at the intensity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 December, 2017, 09:33:10 am
Carter tonight nice and easy 10W+ FTP since two weeks ago yet lower average HR. It’s slowly coming along.

I find the sweet spot stuff like Monitor more demanding. I think that means it’s exposing a weakness - muscular endurance.

Yes, my weak spot too. Really a direct consequence of trying to fit training in around a middle aged life. Still, long steady rides and runs  help as do the more intense sustained efforts and threshold sessions. It's just a matter of time at the intensity.
I can do Sweetspot and Threshold stuff, but VO2 max kills me.  What's that weakness?
Todays threshold workout: https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7037848-darwin

This looks like a great deal for a dual leg power meter (esp with the extra 10% DCR discount). http://www.clevertraining.co.uk/watteam-powerbeat-single-dual-2-pack-power-meter
I assume you guys would recommend getting proper power (I'm currently on Virtual Power)?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 07 December, 2017, 02:27:34 pm
For TrainerRoad virtual power is fine, at least it is on my simple elite fluid turbo
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 07 December, 2017, 03:51:12 pm
so my trainer had to be sent back to netherlands for inspection/repair and is now either stuck in one of parcelforce's depots or gone walkies (it's been two weeks since i've sent it). have been on the phone with pf yesterday and today and they are "still searching". hmm ::-)
as the depot cannot locate the box, they've directed me to claims dept. not too hopeful at the moment and it might take up to a month.

Really annoying and frustrating.
after a lot of communication via phone and email (no one willing to take responsibility) i've finally received an note that the replacement unit has been shipped. fingers xed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 08 December, 2017, 08:08:38 am
Run day yesterday and evening engagement with a client, so snook out for 6 miles of Leeds canal towpath at lunchtime.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 December, 2017, 08:36:12 am
Annoying niggle with the left knee.   Bit of a cold.   Still sticking to the plan but may have to ease off for a few days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 08 December, 2017, 04:21:55 pm
Legs very stiff last night so quite good to have a couple of quiet days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 December, 2017, 11:52:57 am
Freezing outside, and cold coming on, so bailed when I had used all my tissues and couldn't breathe well enough to maintain threshold level effort. Legs felt OK, not so lungs/throat. :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7076980-leconte
With any luck I can avoid the worst of the cold and get my last hard week (wk 5) of the Sweet Spot Base II done properly this week. I want to have a few random rides over Christmas and then start the Build phase (sustained power) in the first week of January.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 December, 2017, 02:13:47 pm
Leconte is one of TR’s toughest workouts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 December, 2017, 03:29:14 pm
Frosty morning so did the turbo alternative which was 1h45m long.   At that point it was relatively decent outside so did 2h30m on the road.   I should sleep well tonight.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 December, 2017, 07:02:42 pm
McAdie tonight. 90m; 4x12m over under intervals.

This stuff feels a bit too easy. I think +10W might have been too conservative.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 11 December, 2017, 10:21:36 pm
TR session including 4 x 8 minute spinups, starting at 235W for 4 minutes, then 3 @ 225W then 1 @ 220W increasing cadence throughout. FTP is currently set at 250W in TR, but not sure if that's accurate. I'm getting through the workouts and they're hard but survivable.

Still every little helps:) plus the Garmin gave me a slightly improved vo2max estimate afterwards.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 December, 2017, 09:02:14 am
I did Lamark this morning (4x 10 minute at FTP).  I set it down at 95% because I did loads of snow shovelling on the weekend and really struggled. It was OK, and my knee was not a problem at all, but my hamstrings are battered! I've never had a workout on the trainer on the hoods (aero is different) where my hamstrings limited me before! And when I got off and went to stretch my quads, my hamstrings cramped! Still, they will sort themselves out, and I'm back on the horse for the last week before Christmas. :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7172156-lamarck
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 14 December, 2017, 10:35:36 am
I hadn't used my TT bike since July but use it on the turbo.

My hamstrings have cramped a couple of time particularly during the longer sustained intervals.   I try to get out the saddle during the 'rests' a couple of times.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 December, 2017, 11:34:47 am
If I had a TT bike then it would be on the turbo. I'm thinking of proposing a deal to my other half that if I hit 250W FTP (pitiful I know, but we all have to start somewhere! ;) ) then I'll have earned one!

Normally, if I pretend I'm in some big solo breakaway and put my forearms on the bars then my hamstrings start to feel it after about a minute. Today, towards the end of each interval they were feeling it when sat up as much as I can without actually letting go of the bars!
Getting out of the saddle is nice to stretch, and it also stops any numbness that might be on it's way if I don't sit quite right. I try to do it at least once on a 60 minute ride - I did it today a couple of times, but it didn't help the hamstrings much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 December, 2017, 07:41:54 pm
Did the test.

I had gone 210 then 220 manually. Still felt too easy. Didn’t expect too much through. Thought I’d maybe hit 225W.

Nope. 233W. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7182459-8-minute-ftp-test

So despite 6 weeks off that’s +10W since September.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 December, 2017, 09:13:04 pm
That's really impressive.  Keep it up.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 December, 2017, 01:22:11 pm
It never rains but it pours.
Today I wanted to do Mary Austin - my first set of power steps, and they look like a painful but rewarding.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/7208646-mary-austin
My left hamstring was tight when spinning through the first interval, but I completed it OK and stopped to stretch in the rest. Not longer after I got back on, the Speed/Cadence sensor dropped out (using my phone for TR). It came back, but dropped again in the second interval. This time it wouldn't come back, and the bike computer wouldn't pick it up either, so maybe the battery has died? I have no other power measurement device (and I've been having issues with my phone not picking up the HR strap), so I gave up on the workout.

I've got a day off on Tuesday - I was going to do Kaiser because I missed it last Tuesday, but I'm probably better off doing Mary Austin again Tuesday morning and doing Kaiser on Thursday before work. At least this means my rest week is going to be Christmas week, so if I do get out on the bike I can just go ride outside for fun.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 December, 2017, 09:18:23 pm
Feeling the effects of the 2x8m test.

Because I missed tues and weds I'm trying to get as much of this week in anyway. So 2x8m on Thursday, and then Pettit -1 which is an easy workout was ok Yesterday but I bailed quite early on Antelope - 4 which I also did yesterday. There was also lots of napping.

Today I was up at 6:45 to cox a 4 in a private 5km head race, which we won. Fell asleep on the sofa again this afternoon while digesting the post-race fry-up, and then did today's workout (now back on schedule). This is a 1h30 over-under workout (Palisade). Still some fatigue in the legs, and upping FTP mid-plan also tends to make things harder than intended since the plan has a built-in progression anyway. So I turned it down by 5% after the first interval, which makes it only about 1% harder than before. I did turn it up by 1% later on, but for the final interval I went back to 95% as 96% was pushing me hard.

I question whether with the amount of fatigue in my legs I can do Eclipse tomorrow. I might pick something longer with lower IF.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 December, 2017, 08:04:13 pm
Did both of this weekends sessions on the road, ignoring the turbo alternative.   This was largely dumb due to the conditions and I totally underdelivered on today's 5hr ride.

Looking at the plan the turbo sessions pick up in volume from next week but are still largely aerobic.   Leaving the same gear on but increasing the resistance one notch.

Physiology tomorrow for knee/left calf.   Osteopath on Tuesday to have the back loosened as I haven't been since July.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 17 December, 2017, 10:36:21 pm
Missed Wed, Thurs, Sat for reasons not to do with me. Managed Friday's rest day... as didn't et to Tan Hill either.

So ran 12 1/2 miles to day to burn up some frustration.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 December, 2017, 11:16:46 am
Week 5 of sweet spot base mid-volume starts tonight.

I'm so looking forwards to the recovery week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 19 December, 2017, 07:13:33 pm
Week 5 is hard! Good luck!
I was going to re-do Mary Austin today, but I had to take my old car to the garage. It's moved, so I ended up doing a 1hr 20 ride on the road instead. It was dark, I wasn't sure where I was going, and then the bike path wasn't a great surface, so I couldn't give it the beans properly, but I still went hard. That will have to do as the longer ride for this week.
Is it possible to import a ride from Strava into TR? It would be good to get the TSS correct...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 December, 2017, 07:31:00 pm
Week 5 is hard! Good luck!
I was going to re-do Mary Austin today, but I had to take my old car to the garage. It's moved, so I ended up doing a 1hr 20 ride on the road instead. It was dark, I wasn't sure where I was going, and then the bike path wasn't a great surface, so I couldn't give it the beans properly, but I still went hard. That will have to do as the longer ride for this week.
Is it possible to import a ride from Strava into TR? It would be good to get the TSS correct...

Not yet - you can, as far as I'm aware, only tick "done outdoors".

TR have been talking about this feature for a while. There's talk of a big update coming soon, maybe it will finally be there.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 December, 2017, 10:43:59 pm
What a difference a day off makes - that was fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 22 December, 2017, 08:03:07 pm
following a five week break (almost no cycling/training) did a 2x8 test. i paced myself hoping a ~10w drop from my previous ftp, but couldn't even sustain that.

new ftp = old ftp - 14w :-[
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 22 December, 2017, 08:51:25 pm
My CTL (Chronic Training Load) took a hit this autumn but it’s now going in the right direction.

Two more weeks of muscular endurance work using Sufferfest/VeloReality then it's onto speed work with TR.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRrbKzhW4AYDbXN.jpg
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 December, 2017, 02:41:43 pm
New build started this week.  Volume up a bit and using a higher resistance setting so less spinny.   Levels between 95 & 110rpm now when I was topping out at 120rpm last week.

5hr road ride this morning and then 90 mins on the turbo tomorrow morning.   I will take Monday and Tuesday off completely as I have felt a little smashed and my mother will give me a hard time if I turn up with a bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 23 December, 2017, 04:14:21 pm
Very little on turbo recently but a lot more pilates, squats  and commuting on the winter tyres.  I really missed that last year when i did almost entirely turbo work.

Went to work on the good bike this morning for a change and it was so easy!  The difference between the winter studded tyres and normal tyres is so great.

(Now I know that you will all tell me different bikes, different materials, etc.  I accept all that BUT the tyres make it so much harder)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 December, 2017, 06:13:01 pm
One more workout and then it's recovery week.

Today's was McAdie + 1 which if I'd tried it last Saturday I'd have turned it down. Completed on target, just.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 24 December, 2017, 06:56:44 am
New build started this week.  Volume up a bit and using a higher resistance setting so less spinny.   Levels between 95 & 110rpm now when I was topping out at 120rpm last week.

5hr road ride this morning and then 90 mins on the turbo tomorrow morning.   I will take Monday and Tuesday off completely as I have felt a little smashed and my mother will give me a hard time if I turn up with a bike.

Sneak a pair of running shoes in? That's my plan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 24 December, 2017, 06:57:56 am
LAst week was rubbish, so 9.5 mile run yesterday and outdoor ride today. Biggest issue is time - how do you find time for a  5 hour outdoor ride?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 24 December, 2017, 08:47:57 am
LAst week was rubbish, so 9.5 mile run yesterday and outdoor ride today. Biggest issue is time - how do you find time for a  5 hour outdoor ride?

Yesterday I was on the road at 6:45.   I was showered and ready for lunch with the family by 12.

It helps that A & J parkrun on a Saturday so everything works quite well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 24 December, 2017, 01:42:28 pm
Ah. I had a job to do at 7.45 this morning, so have been out for just over 2 hours starting at 11:00. Bit wild and woolly and wet, but nice to be out after the last couple of weeks. Plus it felt like cycles the wrong way around the calm at the center of a depression!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 24 December, 2017, 03:46:18 pm
53.6km this morning and a 10km walk.  Means only 444.4 km for the Rapha challenge.  Nothing tomorrow and then 80 on boxing day followed by commuting on wed and Friday with a quick ride on Thursday before the office should leave me with about 200 to do on saturday and Sunday combined.  Probably 2 x 100 to have time with my wife.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 24 December, 2017, 04:55:49 pm
Your ride this morning looked pretty good Chris. Not a shabby pace at all.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 24 December, 2017, 06:21:42 pm
Thanks Mike.  i was quite pleased with it.  HR was reasonably low.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 24 December, 2017, 07:27:29 pm
Another good session with Sufferfest today, this was only going to be a replacement for road rides until my broken collarbone is back up to full strength but I may not go back to TrainerRoad until my free 10 weeks of Sufferfest run out.

I did a 2x20' which I have never done before, for long Intervals i usually do 4x15' and 5x10' TR sessions at the weekend.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 28 December, 2017, 11:10:19 pm
Just completed TrainerRoad, Ericsson. feels good to be back at it after some time away - even held with my previous FTP, though it was tough & i’ll Have to drop it for more challenging sessions...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: furness on 29 December, 2017, 07:04:22 pm
First FTP test on a Watt bike at the gym.  223W @ 69 kg.  I've not done much riding recently, so I'm hoping that with some training I can get this up over 250W (and lose 2 or 3 kg of fat) by Easter whilst also increasing my distance (hoping for a 300 in March). 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 January, 2018, 03:03:47 pm
I was planning to do a proper FTP test today, using the P1 pedals I picked up yesterday (almost new, eBay purchase but local to me). But yesterday was Sunday, so I missed the bike shops (I need road shoes now), and the LBSs that I would use are closed today. It seems that Sports Direct sells road bike shoes, but the only sort they have in stock is some horrible plastic Muddy Fox shoe that I wouldn't want to wear.
I can get shoes tomorrow morning, but I won't be able to ride until Wednesday morning. Most frustrating...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 January, 2018, 03:20:35 pm
It will be interesting to see how it compares with virtual power when you get them.

I finished Sweet Spot Base Mid Volume I yesterday, with only a few missed workouts, I did train on 24th and 26th to make that happen. So onto Mid Volume II starting tomorrow with the 8m test.

235W - 240W range anticipated for FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 01 January, 2018, 04:16:05 pm
I've switched to low volume - mid-volume didn't really give me enough recovery time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Veloman on 01 January, 2018, 04:50:18 pm
I was planning to do a proper FTP test today, using the P1 pedals I picked up yesterday (almost new, eBay purchase but local to me). But yesterday was Sunday, so I missed the bike shops (I need road shoes now), and the LBSs that I would use are closed today. It seems that Sports Direct sells road bike shoes, but the only sort they have in stock is some horrible plastic Muddy Fox shoe that I wouldn't want to wear.
I can get shoes tomorrow morning, but I won't be able to ride until Wednesday morning. Most frustrating...

Do you have a turbo trainer?

I thought FTP test was best done off the road to avoid any other variables.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 January, 2018, 04:55:36 pm
I was planning to do a proper FTP test today, using the P1 pedals I picked up yesterday (almost new, eBay purchase but local to me). But yesterday was Sunday, so I missed the bike shops (I need road shoes now), and the LBSs that I would use are closed today. It seems that Sports Direct sells road bike shoes, but the only sort they have in stock is some horrible plastic Muddy Fox shoe that I wouldn't want to wear.
I can get shoes tomorrow morning, but I won't be able to ride until Wednesday morning. Most frustrating...

Do you have a turbo trainer?

I thought FTP test was best done off the road to avoid any other variables.
Yes, I've got a turbo - I've been using "Virtual Power" with Trainer Road since September. But since I got the puncture on the turbo a few weeks ago I've been wondering how reliably I can recreate the settings taking the bike on and off the trainer. The power meter should sort that out, and also mean I can ride with power on the road as well...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: TigaSefi on 02 January, 2018, 06:49:14 am
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 January, 2018, 09:41:16 am
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?
Sounds like the turbo is on a low resistance setting (mine has 10 settings) and the bike is in a huge gear.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 02 January, 2018, 10:20:16 am
..or using trainerroad with rollers
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 January, 2018, 10:40:20 am
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?

Erg mode on a smart trainer will do that. The speed of the flywheel is determined by gear and cadence and not by power. Hence apparently fast rides if you select a high gear.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 January, 2018, 08:50:46 pm
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/8458911-8-minute-ftp-test

237W +3W in just under 3 weeks over Christmas period.

Max HR 193.  :sick:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 January, 2018, 09:48:06 pm
Ouch! Still, +3W in 3 weeks is good going. :)

I installed my P1 pedals, mounted the cleats on my new shoes, but I can't click into the pedals. I've not used road pedals before - is there a trick, or are the cleats (Look alike) and the pedals not matched (I think it's the latter)?
This palaver will definitely mean I start my next plan a whole week later (and after 2 weeks off the bike) :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 January, 2018, 09:53:50 pm
P1 pedals need powertap cleats.

https://www.evanscycles.com/powertap-p1-pedal-cleats-red-6-degree-float-EV312946?esvt=54882-GOUKE4301806&esvq=&esvadt=999999-0-1220062-1&esvcrea=189742348270&esvplace=&esvd=c&esvtg=pla-337835685055&esvo=EV312946-NA-RED&esvaid=50080&gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ151R_Us0537t0FLykjhC3CmlcncgygRc6tNCUhYqg1G5FYXvfSDjONhoCUcQQAvD_BwE
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 January, 2018, 09:48:04 am
P1 pedals need powertap cleats.
I thought so. I messaged the seller and he mixed up the cleats - has a set of Powertaps he will swap for the ones he gave me.
According to DC Rainmaker, Look Keo cleats work with P1s until they are worn, and then they pop out. these aren't worn, but they look different, maybe they are a different sort of Look cleat. You can see the different cleats for Vector  3, Assioma and P1 here: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/09/power-meter-pedal-shootout-vector-3-vs-powertap-p1-vs-assioma.html
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 January, 2018, 02:01:56 pm
P1 pedals need powertap cleats.
I thought so. I messaged the seller and he mixed up the cleats - has a set of Powertaps he will swap for the ones he gave me.
According to DC Rainmaker, Look Keo cleats work with P1s until they are worn, and then they pop out. these aren't worn, but they look different, maybe they are a different sort of Look cleat. You can see the different cleats for Vector  3, Assioma and P1 here: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/09/power-meter-pedal-shootout-vector-3-vs-powertap-p1-vs-assioma.html

I didn't buy any in the end, but when I chatted to Matt at Cycle Power Meters he said that P1s use Wellgo cleats.   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 January, 2018, 09:15:04 am
I met up with the vendor and swapped the cleats for the powertap ones.  They are a bit battered, but they work. :) The cleats he originally gave me were slightly longer than the P1 ones - I've no idea what they came off.
At some point I'll have to get some more, but I can ride my bike with power now. :) I'll be back on here in a few days bemoaning my lack of power! ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 04 January, 2018, 01:56:40 pm
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?

Erg mode on a smart trainer will do that. The speed of the flywheel is determined by gear and cadence and not by power. Hence apparently fast rides if you select a high gear.

Really? I'll give that a go tonight, currently using Zwift on a Tacx Neo. I thought Zwift took your power reading, converted it to watts per kilo and calculated your speed off the back of this?

Anyways, can recommend Zwift and a Tacx Neo if people are looking for a good (for indoors) cycling experience as you can get. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 January, 2018, 02:06:30 pm
Someone I see on strava uses power meter and TrainerRoad. He did 32.5mph @ 185watts. That can’t be right?

Erg mode on a smart trainer will do that. The speed of the flywheel is determined by gear and cadence and not by power. Hence apparently fast rides if you select a high gear.

Really? I'll give that a go tonight, currently using Zwift on a Tacx Neo. I thought Zwift took your power reading, converted it to watts per kilo and calculated your speed off the back of this?

Anyways, can recommend Zwift and a Tacx Neo if people are looking for a good (for indoors) cycling experience as you can get. :thumbsup:

Indeed I believe that Zwift does convert power to speed, so this won't work for you, sadly.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 January, 2018, 03:42:47 pm
Here's one that will work on Zwift. Use a basic turbo trainer with virtual power, and fit two magnets to your rear wheel.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 January, 2018, 09:11:03 am
I got new cleats anyway. First ride this year, first ride on new pedals, first post-flu ride. I just did a 30 minute version of Carson, and it was very doable.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/9638807-carson-5
I wonder whether the power reported by the pedals is a bit higher than that reported by the back wheel - I couldn't do 75W at a sensible cadence (even in my lowest possible gear), and 175W was not especially hard work. What I did notice was that my power dropped when I was pulling upwards on the pedals, even when maintaining the same cadence and resistance - that felt weird.
I'll do a 45 minute one on Thursday, and then do a new FTP test on the weekend...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 16 January, 2018, 09:16:14 am
If you haven't done a new FTP test on your pedals then I suspect you are seeing the difference between what lost through the drive train to the rear wheel (i.e. you pedals will be a higher power reading)... by how much though?  Accuracy between measuring devices is a moot point for me, as it's all relative to a measured point in time (FTP value), its consistency that's important, so there will be a difference between your new pedals and the old power meter you had... key thing is to get the FTP on the new setup, anything else is just guessing I expect :)


ETA: Or get a session with both attached to the bike and see what if any the offset is and then derive the different FTP from that as an interim.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 January, 2018, 09:24:17 am
As well as the drivetrain, there's also the issue of the tyre on the drum (it's a cheapo wheel-on trainer). Guessing isn't a problem for me right now as I finished my previous plan before Christmas, and I'll be starting a new one next week with a new FTP test. I guess I could hook the pedals to my headunit and my speed/cadence sensor to Trainer Road for "Virtual Power", and then compare the output at the end, but I'm not sure there's any benefit in working out the delta.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 January, 2018, 11:16:00 pm
Mills... 100% for first 3 reps then 102% for the remaining 6. ow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 18 January, 2018, 06:52:46 pm
Ebbetts. A singularly unpleasant experience. Needed a couple of oxygen stops in the second interval, backed it off to 90% for the third interval, but couldn't keep going at all for the fourth.

I'm behind on sleep, and my RHR is up; underlying stress is never helpful.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 January, 2018, 07:34:38 pm
Sounds like what you need is more rest.

I’m about to hit Jepson. I’m not sure I’ll make it to the end of this block without needing an extra rest week. Just about hanging in.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: furness on 18 January, 2018, 09:26:12 pm
First FTP test on a Watt bike at the gym.  223W @ 69 kg.  I've not done much riding recently, so I'm hoping that with some training I can get this up over 250W (and lose 2 or 3 kg of fat) by Easter whilst also increasing my distance (hoping for a 300 in March).

Things haven't gotten off to a great start - been ill with a heavy cold for past week so no training.  Do any of you have any advice about what to do when I restart - should I count this as my recovery week and begin another 4 week block or do I do one more week of training and then recover as per original plan (that will mean 2 weeks off in 4)?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 January, 2018, 11:39:46 pm
First FTP test on a Watt bike at the gym.  223W @ 69 kg.  I've not done much riding recently, so I'm hoping that with some training I can get this up over 250W (and lose 2 or 3 kg of fat) by Easter whilst also increasing my distance (hoping for a 300 in March).

Things haven't gotten off to a great start - been ill with a heavy cold for past week so no training.  Do any of you have any advice about what to do when I restart - should I count this as my recovery week and begin another 4 week block or do I do one more week of training and then recover as per original plan (that will mean 2 weeks off in 4)?

General advice here: http://blog.trainerroad.com/how-to-adjust-my-training-plan-following-time-off/

I had longer off due to a cough lasting for weeks after my last cold. I did some easy stuff to ease back in, then some intensity stuff to kick start things a bit, then went into Sweet Spot Base Mid Volume I from the start.

You will have lost some fitness but in a week it's not a huge loss.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 19 January, 2018, 12:08:45 pm
After my flu, I did 1 30 minute "ease in" ride, and then I figured I'd do an FTP test and see how it goes. I set it to 205 because I figured the pedals are reading higher than the back wheel, and I was 190 before.
I get to 15 minutes, and I realise that I'd been following the chart to get an FTP of 205, but I'd been spinning at 95 rpm, and I'm always faster around 85-90, so I changed up and did 5 minutes at a higher power.  Gave me an FTP of 207, but I think if I'd gone for it from the start I could have done 212. I think I'll do another FTP test on Tuesday.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/9877346-20-minute-ftp-test
I coughed a fair amount afterwards, but not during the ride. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: furness on 19 January, 2018, 05:33:48 pm
Thanks, that advice is useful.  I've continued to do my short commute (at a very gentle pace), mainly because of the hassle of getting to work any other way.  I've been feeling better generally the last couple of days but do have an occasional lingering cough, but I've been able to push on a bit today on the ride home without any ill effects.  I think I'll try 2x20 tempo on Sunday rather than a long ride and then get back to it properly next week if all goes well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 January, 2018, 11:27:11 pm
Did rowing on the water in the morning so did 1h instead of 1h30 last night, and picked Prater.  This workout has found me out in the past when I've set my FTP a bit too high. Not this time.

Then tonight did the planned workout, Juneau - 1. This was also on target and was the highest 2h power I've achieved in more than 18 months.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 January, 2018, 12:23:43 pm
Well I’m feeling that the day. Three flights of stairs at work were plenty.  :hand:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 23 January, 2018, 09:31:32 am
That's more like what an FTP test should feel like! :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10269695-20-minute-ftp-test
222W FTP.  :thumbsup:
I gained 15 watts by just pacing it better. I worked so much harder, and my lungs are still feeling it now (2 hours on). As with all these things, I didn't blow up, so I feel like I could have gone a tiny bit harder, but realistically probably only a watt or 2. Just to show how hard it was (and how the pedals measure different to Virtual Power), I set power records at 1,2,5,10,20, and 30 minutes!
Sets me up nicely for Sustained Power Build.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 25 January, 2018, 10:13:39 am
I did Carpathian Peak today, and I found it really hard to ride at the prescribed power on the up and down slopes. It was much easier to be smooth with Virtual Power than it is with the P1s. I have smoothing set to 2 seconds - should I set it at 3 (or even 5)?:
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10477043-carpathian-peak
I also needed to finish early, so I cut down the second period of rest - I didn't feel like the whole rest period was necessary.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 January, 2018, 10:51:34 am
How do you cut down a period in TrainerRoad, out of interest?

P1s are likely to give a much noisier signal than you will get from virtual power so adding some smoothing may help. Virtual power is based on speed, and small scale variations in power are probably artificially smoothed by this.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 25 January, 2018, 12:47:35 pm
I didn't do it officially (ideally I would have fast-forwarded it but you can't do it in the app - I asked Support in the summer). I have no doubt that you could do it through the workout creator (might do it next Thursday), but today I just knew that the set was intervals of 1 minute at 210W, and then ramping up to 232W and back over 2 minutes. I figured I could do 1 minute at ~240W and 1 minute at ~210W and start the set 4 minutes early, then I could get approx the same workload and cut it short at the end. You can see this in the workout graph.
I guess the flywheel effect of the turbo and the rear wheel smooth the speed changes in Virtual Power. The P1s are really cool though - it's neat to be able to see the actual power (and on my headunit to be able to see right and left split).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 28 January, 2018, 06:26:29 pm
Looks like TR is trialling a replacement for 8/20min FTP tests based on a 1 min ramp.  They are encouraging testers through their FB TR beta page

https://www.facebook.com/groups/147776349143575/permalink/150467508874459/

Ramp Test X is the name of the workout on TR.. I might give it a go later in the week...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 29 January, 2018, 09:09:26 am
That looks like it would be good with a smart trainer, but quite hard to do using gears. I quite like the 20 minute test (I'm not sure what that says about me!).

I did Mount Goode yesterday - was OK though my ITB was a bit tight, so I stopped after the first interval to stretch.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10809108-mount-goode

It's kinda nice just holding the watts for 15 minutes... :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 January, 2018, 10:47:37 am
Ramp tests to failure are tough at the end.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 January, 2018, 09:21:31 am
Cold in the garage this morning. 3x7 1 minute intervals at VO2 max was surprisingly doable. Though looking at the power zones, it seems I spent far more time anaerobic than VO2 max.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10991005-bashful-1

Ramp tests can be brutal if you have the mental fortitude to hurt yourself...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 January, 2018, 10:55:24 am
I've done them 3 or 4 times with a gas exchange mask on.

Not fun, not fun at all.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 February, 2018, 10:26:46 am
Fang Mountain today (-1 because of time pressure - same intervals but with less rest).
I'm really bad at these ramp things.  I'm guessing they are great with an erg trainer, but with a basic mag turbo trainer and gears they are really hard (even with power smoothing set to 3 seconds). Look at how much noise there is on this chart!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11198550-fang-mountain-1
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 February, 2018, 11:14:36 am
That looks like a good effort. Have you looked at some of the other attempts e.g.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10421795-fang-mountain-1
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 February, 2018, 12:50:42 pm
Good point - others with non erg trainers put up similarly noisy numbers.
I was also wondering if it actually made things a little easier - the fluctuations result in micro breaks of a second or 2 that might help recovery and reduce the impact of the workout. Either that or my legs were just really good this morning. If my workouts continue to be "surprisingly doable" then maybe I need to up the intensity a few percent (I did 102% for the second set, and 101% for the 3rd and 4th).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 February, 2018, 02:53:13 pm
Had a load of 'don't want to do this any more' moments last couple of weeks.   Managing the plan physically but having a mental block.   I've not skipped any sessions and delivered them all to plan but finding it hard.

Will push on for another 10 days and then I have a few days off at half term.   Hopefully the motivation will come back.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 February, 2018, 02:57:32 pm
You could be do a recovery week. Mine is next week, I can't wait.  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 February, 2018, 04:58:04 pm
What's your ratio of work weeks to rest weeks at the moment? IIRC, you do epic miles including your commute, so maybe your idea of a rest week is different to mine though!
On the TR plans, Base has got 5 work weeks and then a rest week, but Build only has 3 work weeks and a rest week (x2).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 01 February, 2018, 07:22:37 pm
I've skipped todays Donner as I've a 200 on saturday and I know I will feel pretty dead after it given this week already, compared to feeling very dead if I had done today's session... don't think I'm quite ready for 900ish TSS yet, though skipping it still makes it a 800ish week  :facepalm:

Having Mondays off at the moment has put a bit of a spanner in the works as I'm going out on the bike rather than sitting at home so there's a bit more load than expected...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 February, 2018, 07:54:39 pm
Last week was an easier week. Road miles were about the same but turbo work was down by about 90 mins.   I did over 1000 miles in Jan which is up on last year.  I’m in a pretty decent place I feel but the problem has become mental.   I’ll drop my coach a line tomorrow as I haven’t seen next weeks plan yet.

We have a short family break at half term which will be bikeless so so something to look forward to.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 February, 2018, 07:49:24 pm
So nearing the end of the sweet spot base II plan.

I missed out Leconte last weekend as I had rowing training instead. This week was Mary Austin which appears to be at least as hard. It hurt, and my legs are still aching hours later but I completed it. According to the workout text it's one of the toughest in the TR catalogue.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11422443-mary-austin

Tomorrow's the last workout before the recovery week. Based on how I am right now, it is going to be tough.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 February, 2018, 09:22:49 am
Mary Austin is a real PITA. The second set of interval steps in each set seems to go on forever.
I helped my wife with stuff in school before doing https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11535377-kaweah When I checked my pedometer, I realised I had done 8,500 steps before the ride, which is not ideal preparation!
The standing drills and the quadrant drills were fine, but getting aero was hard second time around and my back is tighter than it would normally be (might have something to do with walking and decorating as well). I've got 1 more work week before my rest week, and while I feel OK, I'm not looking forward to Avalanche Spire (more ramped over-unders) on Thursday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 February, 2018, 10:26:08 am
I had the day off yesterday. I might do sundays workout tomorrow or just skip it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 February, 2018, 12:00:34 pm
Just under 5hrs on the road in the rain on Sunday.   Felt pretty perky so it's amazing what a bit of sleep does for you.    Took Sunday off and went walking for 2hrs with junior.

This week's plan has been dialed back and looks quite sensible.   Whilst I didn't feel too bad physically there were early signs of pushing a bit too hard.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 February, 2018, 09:42:40 am
Absolutely freezing (-4 at 7:30, dunno what it was at 6). Did first set of intervals, but during rest break I could feel my ITB tightening up and then in first of the next set, my knee was making a clicking noise and hurting.  Bad tracking is not good for power, so I shut it down and stretched instead - while my ITB is definitely tight, it's not responding to foam rollering much - I think it's my back that's the root of all this.  :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11682495-bashful-2

The business park on which I work has yoga on Friday lunchtimes, so I'm going to give that a go (starting next week as I'm off this Friday).  Only 2 more high power workouts until the rest week, so I'll stretch and roller beforehand and see how those go...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 06 February, 2018, 09:54:38 am
Absolutely freezing (-4 at 7:30, dunno what it was at 6). Did first set of intervals, but during rest break I could feel my ITB tightening up and then in first of the next set, my knee was making a clicking noise and hurting.  Bad tracking is not good for power, so I shut it down and stretched instead - while my ITB is definitely tight, it's not responding to foam rollering much - I think it's my back that's the root of all this.  :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11682495-bashful-2

The business park on which I work has yoga on Friday lunchtimes, so I'm going to give that a go (starting next week as I'm off this Friday).  Only 2 more high power workouts until the rest week, so I'll stretch and roller beforehand and see how those go...

Bit off topic but the advice on foam rollering now seems to be varying.   My physio still says to roller the ITB, but I have seen elsewhere that this is no longer recommended.   One of my clubmates specializes in physio for recovery and is anti rollering the ITB.   If it helps I suffer with lower back, hip and ITB pain.   What has helped has been hip mobility exercises and, for want of a better description, the spiky ball in the buttock pressure work.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 February, 2018, 10:00:42 am
Absolutely freezing (-4 at 7:30, dunno what it was at 6). Did first set of intervals, but during rest break I could feel my ITB tightening up and then in first of the next set, my knee was making a clicking noise and hurting.  Bad tracking is not good for power, so I shut it down and stretched instead - while my ITB is definitely tight, it's not responding to foam rollering much - I think it's my back that's the root of all this.  :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/11682495-bashful-2

The business park on which I work has yoga on Friday lunchtimes, so I'm going to give that a go (starting next week as I'm off this Friday).  Only 2 more high power workouts until the rest week, so I'll stretch and roller beforehand and see how those go...
Bit off topic but the advice on foam rollering now seems to be varying.   My physio still says to roller the ITB, but I have seen elsewhere that this is no longer recommended.   One of my clubmates specializes in physio for recovery and is anti rollering the ITB.   If it helps I suffer with lower back, hip and ITB pain.   What has helped has been hip mobility exercises and, for want of a better description, the spiky ball in the buttock pressure work.
The last time I went to physio they said to roller the ITB. My right knee is well dodgy (ACL tear, multiple meniscus and MCL sprains, bad tracking), and I can fix the symptoms by working resolutely on my VMO, but it probably all stems from my lower back. I probably just need to do more core work. I should probably also get refitted onto this bike (changed saddle, pedals and shoes since my fit last year). 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 10 February, 2018, 01:47:26 pm
i've noticed that trainerroad started to send the screenshots of workouts as pictures, when uploading them to strava. i'm on the last few days of base training, still to decide which build phase to go for.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 10 February, 2018, 02:40:54 pm
Yes that was announced as coming on their Beta group a few days ago.

I'm day 3 of not going on teh turbo, I just can not get the motivation to do so...  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 February, 2018, 03:40:37 pm
I might try general build.

This week was supposed to be the recovery week at the end of base II, but lurgy.

Two hour-long on the water rowing sessions today and tomorrow to keep me working anyway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 February, 2018, 08:47:41 pm
I'm 3 weeks into the Sustained Power Build. The Saturday ride (I'm on the low volume plan) contains long threshold intervals, which is really good for me - I guess it depends on what you want to do this year.
Today's was brutal. Friday I had a 12,000 step day helping my wife run a school festival, yesterday was a no effort day, and today I did 6,000 steps before my ride. The first 2 intervals were OK, but the third was hard, and from 10-18 minutes I was struggling with my ITB/hamstring tightness, but I just gutted it out and survived (and the last 2 minutes were OK).
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/12100854-galena-1
This week is a "rest" week. I'm not sure how much of the scheduled riding I'll do - I find the low effort ones really boring and hard to motivate myself for.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 February, 2018, 08:49:17 am
I did my scheduled ride: https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/12225314-pettit
It was boring and cold, and my right knee was sore by the end.  I'm gonna skip Thursday's ride, and maybe do an FTP test on the weekend ready for the next set of work weeks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 February, 2018, 04:40:56 pm
I skipped the Thursday workout (though I did some yoga Friday). Today I tried the new Ramp Test X.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/13643874-ramp-test-x
It's not automated yet (I think it's still a bit experimental), but a TR employee commented saying they make my FTP 234. That's a good jump - I'll try to replicate that on Tuesday morning. :)
Because it was short, I also did Charybdis 30.  That was brutal (especially after ramping up to 300W).
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/13652879-charybdis-30

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 February, 2018, 08:14:09 pm
i've done a ramp test too, was committed to reach 20min, so did just that and my legs gave out (probably need to set the target higher next time). if the best minute multiplier is .77 it seems too high. i'm about to start a build phase and it begins with a 2x8 test - oh joy!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 February, 2018, 04:21:32 pm
They changed it to 0.76% of the highest power you can maintain for a whole minute.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 18 February, 2018, 06:51:37 pm
They changed it to 0.76% of the highest power you can maintain for a whole minute.

i'd prefer 0.73 as this would mean i can still complete tougher intervals without the need to backpedal
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 February, 2018, 09:03:06 am
My FTP test today came out lower than Ramp Test X (229 as opposed to 234), but I was feeling rubbish today (bad sleep, empty legs, ate during the warmup and then felt sick!). I couldn't spin as well either (ended up ina 90 rpm cadence rather than 95-100).  Given the different conditions of the 2 tests, I'll stick with 234 and see how hard the workouts are!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/14609218-20-minute-ftp-test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 20 February, 2018, 07:50:49 pm
i've also just done a solid 8min ftp test and came to a conclusion that for the future ramp tests (which i much prefer) i need to use a 0.72 coefficient (or 0.73 if i feel 100% fit).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 February, 2018, 07:55:05 pm
I'm going to do it once I've let the fruit I ate go down a bit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 February, 2018, 08:21:17 pm
I'm somewhat confused as to how they got to 234, seeing as 0.76*302 = 229.5. That's only just over what I got for my 20 minute test. Maybe they used 0.77, or maybe they took into account my ability to do a bit of the next interval (though I definitely couldn't have completed it at 315).
Good luck Simon!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 February, 2018, 08:27:17 pm
They started with 0.77 and changed it to 0.76 but the algorithm is a little more complex, apparently.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 February, 2018, 09:22:52 pm
326W => ftp 248 (to nearest watt)

About where I’d expect to be.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 February, 2018, 11:38:47 am
326W => ftp 248 (to nearest watt)

About where I’d expect to be.

TrainerRoad have commented and also say FTP = 248.

Target: raising this by 20W by summer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 21 February, 2018, 01:53:36 pm
326W => ftp 248 (to nearest watt)

About where I’d expect to be.

TrainerRoad have commented and also say FTP = 248.

Target: raising this by 20W by summer.
How does 248 compare to last year? What plan(s) are you doing? And have you signed up for their Beta service showing you old data? I signed up, but nothing's changed on my account yet.

I'm starting the second block of sustained power build, and then I guess I'll do the 40k TT specialist one. That only takes me to June though, so I should be able to get another build in if I feel up to it. I'd like to get up to (or beyond if poss) 260 or so by the end of the summer. That's another 26 Watts - I've basically gone up 10W every month or so after using TR (I only started in September), but I'm assuming it's going to start levelling off soon!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 February, 2018, 03:55:43 pm
326W => ftp 248 (to nearest watt)

About where I’d expect to be.

TrainerRoad have commented and also say FTP = 248.

Target: raising this by 20W by summer.
How does 248 compare to last year? What plan(s) are you doing? And have you signed up for their Beta service showing you old data? I signed up, but nothing's changed on my account yet.

I'm starting the second block of sustained power build, and then I guess I'll do the 40k TT specialist one. That only takes me to June though, so I should be able to get another build in if I feel up to it. I'd like to get up to (or beyond if poss) 260 or so by the end of the summer. That's another 26 Watts - I've basically gone up 10W every month or so after using TR (I only started in September), but I'm assuming it's going to start levelling off soon!

So last year I was ahead based on KickR power numbers (but I estimate it was over reading by around 15W). I we assume Neo is spot on, I'm within 3W of a year ago. However I had a problem with my wisdom tooth in February last year which kept me from training for a month, and I retested at 248W in March. So given that hasn't happened this time around, I think I will come out ahead.

I'm on General Build Mid Volume I. However tonight's workout will be replaced by a rowing water session.

My best ever 8 minute test scored 276W. Call that 260W. I will be happy with getting back to 260W, anything higher will be a bonus.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 February, 2018, 12:30:49 pm
I did this one this morning - it didn't feel mega hard, so I'm pretty happy with that. :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/15404323-washington
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 February, 2018, 12:36:15 pm
I did this one this morning - it didn't feel mega hard, so I'm pretty happy with that. :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/15404323-washington

Yep, looks like you nailed that.

I am coming down with something. Bah.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 February, 2018, 05:17:04 pm
Yep, looks like you nailed that.

I am coming down with something. Bah.
Thanks. :)

It's the most frustrating thing in the world when your training is going well and then you get a cold and you can't push it. :( At least you'll stay ahead of your February from last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 24 February, 2018, 08:26:40 pm
That was hard. One of those where there is no major pain point, it's just hard, and it stays like that for ages.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/16265450-fish-2
I reckon I could have done another minute on the end of each interval, but it would have taken some real focus and pain!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 24 February, 2018, 11:45:45 pm
ooo new career view is now available on TR which seems interesting  :thumbsup:

The bit I like the best is now it has all your ride data from TP & Strava you can set up 'seasons' to compare against under 'personal-records' (i.e. pre-LEL and post LEL for example).

It then has a season match facility to compare where you are now with the seasons you set up.  I quite like that (mostly because it tells me I am 30+ watts better than I was this time last year lol)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 27 February, 2018, 09:15:39 am
I signed up for the Beta, but my Career page hasn't changed yet.
This morning was soooo cold. I did Dade (should have been Dade +1, but I only have 1 hour) and I only had the fan on for the 2nd and 3rd set of intervals.  I need to work out how to block the vents in my shoes - my feet were freezing! The workout was solid though - the +1 version has 2.5 minute intervals at 120%, but the 1 hour version has 2 minute intervals, 6 at 120% and 3 at 140%, and I could hit the numbers and hang on OK. It feels like I'm getting fitter and more sustained ability to really hammer. If I were going to do it again, I might put it up to 101%!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/17267327-dade
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 27 February, 2018, 10:00:12 am
I signed up for the Beta, but my Career page hasn't changed yet.
This morning was soooo cold. I did Dade (should have been Dade +1, but I only have 1 hour) and I only had the fan on for the 2nd and 3rd set of intervals.  I need to work out how to block the vents in my shoes - my feet were freezing! The workout was solid though - the +1 version has 2.5 minute intervals at 120%, but the 1 hour version has 2 minute intervals, 6 at 120% and 3 at 140%, and I could hit the numbers and hang on OK. It feels like I'm getting fitter and more sustained ability to really hammer. If I were going to do it again, I might put it up to 101%!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/17267327-dade

If I go to https://www.trainerroad.com/career-new/duncanm23 I can see the new version of your profile (it seems stuck at syncing 14 ot 142 rides)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 27 February, 2018, 10:45:47 am
I signed up for the Beta, but my Career page hasn't changed yet.
This morning was soooo cold. I did Dade (should have been Dade +1, but I only have 1 hour) and I only had the fan on for the 2nd and 3rd set of intervals.  I need to work out how to block the vents in my shoes - my feet were freezing! The workout was solid though - the +1 version has 2.5 minute intervals at 120%, but the 1 hour version has 2 minute intervals, 6 at 120% and 3 at 140%, and I could hit the numbers and hang on OK. It feels like I'm getting fitter and more sustained ability to really hammer. If I were going to do it again, I might put it up to 101%!
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/17267327-dade

If I go to https://www.trainerroad.com/career-new/duncanm23 I can see the new version of your profile (it seems stuck at syncing 14 ot 142 rides)
Strange - that just bounces me to here: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 27 February, 2018, 10:53:20 am
Where as if I click that, I get bounced to the new version.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 March, 2018, 12:25:00 pm
That's really strange.

I'm supposed to be doing Mt Hale today, but I stayed in bed this morning! I could do it now, but I'm just too cold to go into the garage in -3.
Tomorrow morning is going to be -2, so maybe that's a goer - would have to be the 1 hour version though.

Is anyone else training in this weather?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 01 March, 2018, 01:07:37 pm
Just about, it was 5 deg in my pain cave last night, so fan didn't go on until the second interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 March, 2018, 01:10:26 pm
My wrist had two steroid injections yesterday, one to try to deal with a ganglion cyst, the other into the area around the tfcc. I asked about what I could do afterwards - rowing is obviously out, but also I'm not allowed to even do turbo.

Yet more disruption to my training.

Should be back on it after the weekend, and at least my lurgy from last week is now gone. I did a 5K test at the rowing club on Tuesday and that was horrible, managed 19:45 which I wasn't too happy with. My breathing felt really bad during the middle. Didn't warm up well enough due to issues with getting a new HR strap working as well.

At least I've set a time that I should be able to beat.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 01 March, 2018, 01:16:27 pm
I suspect the person did not understand what a turbo is!

I would put no limitations on what you can do after a steroid into your wrist.  It will hurt as I have just stuck a big needle into you.  Will using it damage you - NO.

certainly on the turbo if you are not putting your weight on your hands what harm can you do?  So either TT position on turbo or do aerobic sub FTP work with your arms crossed and no weight on the bars.

Alternatively only use the good hand on the bars.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 March, 2018, 03:12:47 pm
Thanks Chris.

I don't have aero bars on my turbo bike but I could sit up and do some light stuff. Up to a point - brain will crawl out eventually.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 March, 2018, 10:48:03 pm
Just about, it was 5 deg in my pain cave last night, so fan didn't go on until the second interval.

Oh how I wish I’d paid extra for the fan with a remote control. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 01 March, 2018, 10:58:00 pm
there are remote control mains adapters which would do the job. i start my session with the base layer on and take it off during a warmup.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 01 March, 2018, 11:34:27 pm
Just about, it was 5 deg in my pain cave last night, so fan didn't go on until the second interval.

Oh how I wish I’d paid extra for the fan with a remote control.
Remote mains plug ftw. It's a Sonoff one but I've put a different firmware on to match my lights and other house stuff :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 02 March, 2018, 06:41:50 am
there are remote control mains adapters which would do the job. i start my session with the base layer on and take it off during a warmup.

Yeah, that’s what I do.   At the moment so I have to put it back on pretty quickly before cooling down.

The nearest plug point is quite a distance off and I need an extension cable.   Waiting for the days when I need the garage door open and the fan on full.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 02 March, 2018, 07:33:38 am
Just about, it was 5 deg in my pain cave last night, so fan didn't go on until the second interval.

Oh how I wish I’d paid extra for the fan with a remote control.

It made a big difference to my sessions, especially with the ability to tweak the direction of blow as well as the speed during the warm-up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 02 March, 2018, 08:02:46 am
It has been a slow start to the ear for a number of reasons but finally feel i am back in a reasonable place.
I left my FTP at 230 which was way too high so this was the first workout where I have not dialled back on the percentage at all.  Few drops in power and a few times where I was out of the saddle to give the quads a rest but overall I am quite pleased.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/chrisbainbridge/rides-new/18170896-fang-mountain-1 (https://www.trainerroad.com/career/chrisbainbridge/rides-new/18170896-fang-mountain-1)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 March, 2018, 01:56:38 pm
I applied rule 5 and got on the trainer at lunchtime. I'm really going well at the moment - I wonder if I'm gonna get another FTP bump at the end of this block.
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/18396244-mt-hale
I also found some cheap secondhand aero bars locally, so my "speciality" phase (due to start in 3 weeks) can be done on them. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 02 March, 2018, 05:34:52 pm
After 6 weeks completely off the bike and then a gradual build up after my off I regained the speed just not the endurance I guess. Only three short (3-4 miles) rides outside since Oct 8, to ensure I registered a time for the Gorilla Tour of Oundle Strava challenge. So far so good, only 19" behind the prologue winner.
Stage 1 results (http://www.nrtoone.com/strava/tourofoundle_results.php?stage=1)

This was mainly done using my 2 free months of Sufferfest. I will be switching from TrainerRoad to Sufferfest permanently now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 02 March, 2018, 07:38:28 pm
After 6 weeks completely off the bike and then a gradual build up after my off I regained the speed just not the endurance I guess. Only three short (3-4 miles) rides outside since Oct 8, to ensure I registered a time for the Gorilla Tour of Oundle Strava challenge. So far so good, only 19" behind the prologue winner.
Stage 1 results (http://www.nrtoone.com/strava/tourofoundle_results.php?stage=1)

This was mainly done using my 2 free months of Sufferfest. I will be switching from TrainerRoad to Sufferfest permanently now.

Is that on a PC or app ?  I have no ability to run it on a tablet/phone and I already have some of the videos which I use in TR, but if they had a PC app I might be tempted. VV were doing a free 60 days but I didn't take them up on it...

What was it about Sufferfest that has made you mind up out of interest?  I'd do similar with Xert if it wasn't for their dodgy app for their workouts - I really like the smart/dynamic approach to some of the workouts rather than a static prescription..

In other news, had to turn the fan on earlier tonight, wore my winter boots on the turbo, so fan was on before the start of the first interval on Kaiser  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 02 March, 2018, 07:55:46 pm
On a PC although it also works on an iPhone. The main reason for switching? Probably because although TR was good enough to use to prepare for TTs I think Sufferfest is much better for RR prep.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 March, 2018, 03:48:05 pm
That was a hard workout today. 3*18 minute intervals at 97% threshold, and only 3 minutes rest between.https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/19002099-mount-goode-2
Mostly it as a mental test, physically there wasn't any point at which my legs couldn't do it (though getting the cadence right was a bit tricky). 2 hours later, I feel completely whacked! I guess that makes it a legit workout.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 04 March, 2018, 08:11:54 pm
I did the TR ramp test yesterday, surprisingly nicer than expected compared with an 8 or 20min protocol, but the still haven't bolted on the warm down yet.

I was surprised how I just suddenly became unable to hold my 105 cadence and that was the end of the ramp.

It came out 45w or so higher than my last test so not sure I'll take that as my new FTP! Seems too big a gain but is broadly consistent with what Cert was telling me where I have put big efforts in on the road.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 March, 2018, 08:47:49 pm
Are you looking at the top of the ramp  *0.76?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 05 March, 2018, 08:05:29 am
Are you looking at the top of the ramp  *0.76?

You get a comment added to the workout (which helpfully isn't visible on the new version of the view but they still use the comment system as it sends an email to the user).

Quote
Thanks for helping out TrainerRoad by doing Ramp Test X! Based on the current formula, your FTP is 311.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/jiberjaber/rides-new/18692746

My previous FTP based on 8min protocol was 259W and whilst doing some VO2 stuff last week, I did experiment with adding a few % to the intensity.  I'm not sure I would have been able to complete the workouts if they had been based on 311W FTP!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 March, 2018, 12:57:23 pm
I got that sort of email/comment. Mine was within a few W of my 20 minute FTP test. Maybe it's worth trying to do an 8 minute (or 20 minute) FTP test with your power at the 311W level and see how well you do? It's a great result though - congrats. :)

The reason why I said 0.76 is because that's what it says they use on the Beta testers facebook page.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 05 March, 2018, 12:59:21 pm
My previous FTP based on 8min protocol was 259W and whilst doing some VO2 stuff last week, I did experiment with adding a few % to the intensity.  I'm not sure I would have been able to complete the workouts if they had been based on 311W FTP!

Quite a big jump.

I started on TR a couple a few weeks ago, Sweet Spot Base, and doing an initial ramp test the FTP was ~5% up on a 20min test I'd done the week prior. So far I've found the workouts doable using this higher FTP but hard work, so it appears calibrated correctly for me...

It's with mixed emotions that I "look forward" to seeing an FTP increase when next testing. Double edged sword innit!

I'm a cycling returnee, got back on the turbo in the Autumn after years off. Currently at 3.2 w/kg, aiming for 3.5 by late summer. If that happens, will take it from there: 3.75? I've not done measured training like this before so I don't yet know what's possible (nor my motivation to make it happen). A bit of discovery ahead.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 March, 2018, 01:05:32 pm
Amen to that!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 05 March, 2018, 01:09:05 pm
...also, already have low body fat, so no gains to be had from slimming down. Another double edged sword!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 March, 2018, 08:57:30 pm
Been ill and then steroid jab. Two weeks mostly off. So ramp test!

New ftp 246. 2W drop. Without rounding just 1.5W drop.

Back on it now hopefully. Wrist pain free on turbo woo!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 March, 2018, 06:51:22 am
Good to hear that your wrist is better, and only 1.5W down after 2 weeks off is probably good too. :)

It had been going really well recently, but today sucked. I just couldn't get my power up and then hold it - my lungs were OK but my legs weren't just doing it. My knee is a bit sore, so I couldn't just muscle it at 85rpm, so afterthe 4th interval I just gave it up and stretched a bit instead...
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/19562945-kaiser-1

This is the last week of work (before the rest week) of the Build phase. I'm travelling with work on Thursday, and I'll be knackered on Friday, so I think I'll do the Saturday workout as planned, and then do the one I should do Thursday Tuesday next week.  Then I'll take the rest of the week off (for "rest"). Then I'll move onto the 40k TT speciality plan (and I'm collecting some cheapass aero bars today too :) ).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 March, 2018, 12:29:30 pm
TrainerRoad said 243W in the comment.

Best minute was 324W. Multiply by 0.76 => 246.24W.

I know their actual formula has more tweaks than the basic 0.76. 243W is also fine and I'll probably go with this value.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 06 March, 2018, 01:17:31 pm
i am using 0.73 and it's pretty much spot on, except the vo2max intervals which i cannot complete until the end (so far)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 March, 2018, 09:09:33 am
After spending Thursday travelling, and Friday chilling, I was back on it yesterday. I couldn't spin fast enough to sustain the power in the first interval, so went up 1 gear and let my cadence settle around 90. Aside from that, it felt good. I've only got 1 hard workout to go in this plan and then next week I'll start a new one (can't decide between another Build, or doing the 40TT Speciality one).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/20835398-mount-goode-3
Last week's Mount Goode wiped me out for the rest of the day - this one I was fine afterwards. Maybe I'm getting fitter! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 March, 2018, 10:23:49 pm
Based on 0.76 I did this:

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides-new/21963791-huffaker

 :sick:

My legs gave up in the last interval. I did the rest on target. I felt a bit of hunger before I started which perhaps means I needed a bit more food earlier in the day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 13 March, 2018, 10:43:40 pm
I tried to pace an 8min FTP test at the 8min power from the ramp test result... the result of which was a predictable pain cave and really bad 2nd interval! Absolute dogs dinner, I couldn't get enough oxygen in from breathing...  :facepalm:
Interestingly, the Xert FTP app had me at 280W on the basis of that 1st interval.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/jiberjaber/rides-new/21819932-8-minute-ftp-test

3W improvement on last test so up to 262W from 259 but I suspect it would have been a better result if I had gone out at a lower pace for the first interval!...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 March, 2018, 02:14:31 pm
That sounds brutal - both of you.
I overdid an 8 minute FTP test a few months ago - it was soul destroying starting the second interval and realising you just ain't gonna be able to keep it up. You did pretty well, mine was about 2 minutes of on target and then off a 100W cliff!

I've given up on the idea of doing the last hard workout now (barely slept on Monday night so I slept in on Tuesday morning instead of getting up to train). I'm gonna do one of the recovery week rides tomorrow, and then a Ramp Test X on Sunday. I also talked to my friendly local bikefitter, who said that the cheapass aero bars I had were too short and straight and not adjustable enough, so I've ordered some Profile T4. I'll get set up on them when they arrive (hopefully before the first TT of the year in early April). I also need to keep an eye on my food - the last few weeks I've not been paying attention and I've regained the 1.5kg I lost! :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 19 March, 2018, 10:34:34 am
I did Ramp Test X yesterday. It went pretty well, and I completed the 332W step but couldn't do the 346 one: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/23622661-ramp-test-x
No-one from Trainer Road has commented, so I don't know what they would set my FTP to, but if we assume they are doing something around 0.76*332 that would put my FTP at 252W. That seems like a bit of a step from 234 4 weeks ago (and 222 8 weeks ago). All with the same pedals. If I am above 250 I'll be super chuffed.  I was at 171W (Virtual Power) back in September.
The 40k TT plan says I should do a 20 minute FTP test on Tuesday, so I will set it to 252 (or whatever TR suggest) and than try to hit that - that will be a reasonable measure of how well I can do at ~250W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 19 March, 2018, 11:48:38 am
i did a ramp test yesterday too, 1min power was 5w higher than three weeks ago, so it's all going in the right direction and i've reached a milestone of 4.5w/kg

tr post comments on ramp tests during their working hours in the us, so sometime today or tomorrow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 March, 2018, 11:55:19 am
I did Ramp Test X yesterday. It went pretty well, and I completed the 332W step but couldn't do the 346 one: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/23622661-ramp-test-x
No-one from Trainer Road has commented, so I don't know what they would set my FTP to, but if we assume they are doing something around 0.76*332 that would put my FTP at 252W. That seems like a bit of a step from 234 4 weeks ago (and 222 8 weeks ago). All with the same pedals. If I am above 250 I'll be super chuffed.  I was at 171W (Virtual Power) back in September.
The 40k TT plan says I should do a 20 minute FTP test on Tuesday, so I will set it to 252 (or whatever TR suggest) and than try to hit that - that will be a reasonable measure of how well I can do at ~250W.

I think you should be using 343W (best 1-minute power which is from 19:30 to 20:30 in the workout).

So that would give 261W if they are still using 0.76. Note they went slightly lower in my case, I think there are tweaks and they may have reduced from 0.76.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 March, 2018, 11:55:38 am
I struggled the last few days. Too tired.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 19 March, 2018, 12:03:17 pm
I did Ramp Test X yesterday. It went pretty well, and I completed the 332W step but couldn't do the 346 one: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/23622661-ramp-test-x
No-one from Trainer Road has commented, so I don't know what they would set my FTP to, but if we assume they are doing something around 0.76*332 that would put my FTP at 252W. That seems like a bit of a step from 234 4 weeks ago (and 222 8 weeks ago). All with the same pedals. If I am above 250 I'll be super chuffed.  I was at 171W (Virtual Power) back in September.
The 40k TT plan says I should do a 20 minute FTP test on Tuesday, so I will set it to 252 (or whatever TR suggest) and than try to hit that - that will be a reasonable measure of how well I can do at ~250W.

I think you should be using 343W (best 1-minute power which is from 19:30 to 20:30 in the workout).

So that would give 261W if they are still using 0.76. Note they went slightly lower in my case, I think there are tweaks and they may have reduced from 0.76.
That would be insane. I'd be happy with anything over 250 - over 260 would make me feel like I overtested! Then again, I'm not sure I've managed to go so deep on previous tests, even after a few minutes spinning down when I went in the house to stretch I felt very sick! Plus my ribs hurt today (too much pulling on the bars)! I wonder if the ramp test doesn't work so well for dumb trainers, because it's hard to sit at the right level for each minute. I'll wait for the TR people to comment before I update my FTP.

Zigzag - 4.5W/kg is very impressive. While my power has gone up in the last couple of months my weight has too (almost 2kg). Even 262W would only give me 3.5W/kg.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 19 March, 2018, 03:55:21 pm
Comment with new FTP - 256W. :)
Pleased I went above 250, now I've got to back it up and do my next block properly at that power.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 March, 2018, 04:36:00 pm
They're not using 0.76, or they're doing something more complex.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 19 March, 2018, 05:23:15 pm
They're not using 0.76, or they're doing something more complex.
my evaluation came back with the result that matches a multiplier .75 - which is now pretty close to my "realistic" one of .72-73
i'll use their figure and see how much pain i can take during the next build block.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 19 March, 2018, 07:15:59 pm
I think they said that they use 0.76 as a multiplier on the last completed step, but they also give you credit if you get through part of the next one.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 19 March, 2018, 08:38:10 pm
I think they said that they use 0.76 as a multiplier on the last completed step, but they also give you credit if you get through part of the next one.

They've said max 1min power * 0.76, where max 1min power readable from the chart in the beta analysis software or in table form on the old software (I think).

But (as noted by others) the FTP number they told me is a bit lower than that indicating there's some other factor considered.

Also, I think you're right that the ramp test is not so well suited to dumb trainers as it is to ergs - my experience was it became a bit of a struggle (distraction) trying to find the right gears for a suitable cadence, and in the last 1min I ended up going way above the target for part of it. Perhaps they're normalising the max 1min power number in some way and hence the departure from a simple *0.76?

And kudos to zigzag for those numbers, sweet baby jesu.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 19 March, 2018, 09:23:42 pm


And kudos to zigzag for those numbers, sweet baby jesu.

thank you, lots of pain and suffering behind those numbers ("why am i doing this?.."); harsh winter helped with motivation in a way
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 20 March, 2018, 12:39:27 am
I’m finally back on it  :thumbsup: have avoided an ftp test and instead i’m sticking with a level I previously tested at (don’t have the drive to push that hard on a test yet). 

Working out ok so far, will possibly test next week though.... it’s all a bit unstructured, but helping the mojo  8)

Sunday https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/23669224#.WrBYiYPN1t8 (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/23669224#.WrBYiYPN1t8)
Followed by Carter on Monday, then something like Carillion planned for Tuesday
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 March, 2018, 09:03:18 am
20 minute FTP test today.  I wasn't really feeling it, and it was 6am. Also, I don't have my aero bars yet, so I couldn't do it in my aero position. First 10 minutes was hard, and it was hard to get the cadence and gearing just so. The 10-15minute period is usually tough for me, but I didn't feel like quitting, I just didn't have the focus necessary. The last 5 was OK, and I could have gone (a bit) longer if I needed.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/23913820

Calculated FTP was 248. I think I'll stick with the 256 - I don't feel as wrung out as after the ramp test, so I think that was actually a better number.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 20 March, 2018, 09:20:08 am
Been up and down for a while.   Fastest ever 200k 10 days ago and first back, but then wiped out for a few days.   The weather threw last weekend out but I did 90mins on the turbo on Saturday.

I've booked a medical for Thursday afternoon as it's been 5 years since the last one and I don't recall feeling this crap when I was deep into training this time last year.

I have my first TT of the year on Saturday.   It's just a 10 but it will be a test of fitness.   Besides my 10 PB is atrocious so hopefully I can still update it as it's on a fast course.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 20 March, 2018, 10:33:28 am
I'm in the midst of yet another cough/cold/something or other which whilst happening over a particularly miserable section of weather outside, I've been off the bike since last Wednesday and it's depressing watching my ramp rate go negative and feeling like all the gains over the last few weeks are being undone .... second bought of this lurgy in 2 weeks...  :'(  I'm even questioning being able to do an Arrow at this rate!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 March, 2018, 09:59:26 am
First proper ride with new FTP.  The plan calls for a 75 minute workout (4*9 intervals with 5 minute recoveries), but I only had an hour so I did a shorter version:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/24651780-budawang

262W is annoyingly in between on the gears - either it's 88rpm or 100, and my legs weren't feeling spinny today. I've got an 11-32 cassette and a compact chainset - I didn't ride anything that needs the lowest gear last year, so when I replace the cassette I might go 11-28. The recoveries were a bit too long (I was bored and HR of 100 with 2 minutes to go on the second one) - I contemplated just starting the effort a minute early and doing a 10 minute interval, but decided against.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 March, 2018, 11:43:30 am
It is usually a good idea to go as narrow as possible. I'm using 11-25 on the trainer. It doesn't make any difference in erg mode, but when using resistance mode for a 2x8m test, or on a normal turbo, going as narrow as you can is a good plan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 March, 2018, 01:29:11 pm
Narrow is good, but this is basically my only road bike. So while I'd go as narrow as possible for TT or for Turbo, I can't just use a straight through block and then survive on the club runs.
Everything points inexorably to a TT specific bike. Next year... :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 March, 2018, 08:54:34 pm
The discovery that my allergy to cats was actually an allergy to rats.

I think my breathing may have improved, since all the rats* are dead.

*Pets.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 25 March, 2018, 01:51:47 pm
Improved breathing is definitely a good thing. :)

My ride today was hard.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/25871597
Fueling and sleep were OK. Got interrupted at the end of the first interval and had to make the TV work for my daughter! Getting back into it was hard, and the middle onwards of the 3rd interval was a real struggle. My right knee has been sore for a couple of days - I need to stretch more...

I did a minute on the aero bars a few times - it's a bit harder to put out power and my belly breathing interferes with my legs slightly . I probably need to lift the saddle a little bit - I'm trying to arrange a new bike fit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 March, 2018, 07:21:21 pm
That looks like a proper tester.

I had no turbo time this weekend, as I had too much going on with rowing.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 27 March, 2018, 08:56:07 am
After a couple of weeks of brutal threshold work today was sweetspot.
I forgot how hard sweet pot is! Slept badly, felt crap on waking up, warmup was harder than it should have been and the wattage was either too fast at 97rpm or too slow at 82. Plus my shorts were chafing when I was in my aerobars. I think that lack of breakfast is really hurting me on the 6am rides now.
I bailed less than halfway through the second 20 minute interval. :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/26507177-eclipse-2
I've been sneezing loads today as well. Hope it's something to do with the rain and not a cold. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 27 March, 2018, 06:42:09 pm
my first ever aborted session today - after doing a warm-up i understood i've no chance/energy to complete the whole thing. hopefully i'll feel stronger tomorrow!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 March, 2018, 07:19:40 pm
Welcome to our club zigzag! Sometimes the best choice is rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 27 March, 2018, 09:09:50 pm
I climbed off during the warm up a few weeks ago.   Felt guilty for days but sometimes it’s just not there.

This week, however, I love training and racing again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 March, 2018, 09:39:23 pm
Looked at tonight’s workout. 5x2m:3r at 120%. Nope.

Did Monitor which was fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 28 March, 2018, 08:07:55 am
my first ever aborted session today - after doing a warm-up i understood i've no chance/energy to complete the whole thing. hopefully i'll feel stronger tomorrow!

I had a hard under/over session (McAdie) to do 10 days ago and it felt pretty grim from the off. Kept going but only by reducing the Intensity for the last couple of blocks. The TSS still managed to be higher than any prior session in my lengthy (month long!) TR "career" up to then. Cue a week+ of acute moaning man flu.

But! The off-bike time was usefully spent by upgrading the turbo setup to erg and accurate power measurement ;D

I've an FTP test to look forward to, therefore, that will likely reveal my earlier virtual power numbers to have been somewhat optimistic...  :'(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 March, 2018, 09:00:46 am
You might be lucky - I think my Virtual Power was under reading by about 15 Watts (compared to my P1 pedals).
After quitting my last session halfay through the second interval (of 2), I'm going to tweak things a bit and skip Thursday's workout completely.  That means I get to stay in bed an extra hour! Then I'll do Saturdays 1.5 hour workout on Friday (bank holiday - yay), have the whole weekend off, and start again next Tuesday (or maybe bring the Tuesday workout forwards to Monday afternoon depending).
I think I gain more FTP when resting aftr a big chunk of Training stress than I do when piling it on further (or even tapering it off a bit), and it feels so much fresher when you get back on after an extra couple of days off...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 28 March, 2018, 09:55:10 am
I think I gain more FTP when resting aftr a big chunk of Training stress than I do when piling it on further (or even tapering it off a bit), and it feels so much fresher when you get back on after an extra couple of days off...

With hindsight I should probably have started out with Low Volume, not Mid Volume. I chose the latter because I generally have plenty of time available but maybe it was too much of a step up in workload from my pre-TR regime, compounded by my schedule causing me to compress the training week on a few occasions. It felt fine - surprisingly so - until it eventually didn't, and the accumulated fatigue took its toll...

Being the first time I've followed a structured training programme linked to FTP, it's become clear there's little slacking within TR - most sessions are pretty hard, it's just the degree that varies! I've always needed a decent amount of recovery, and with TR I'd misjudged how much work I was doing (or capable of).

Still, it's all a useful learning exercise  ;D

Onward and upward-ish!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 March, 2018, 10:39:17 am
I started on Low Volume, and I'm not sure I could have coped with the Mid Volume. It feels like all the low volume rides are intense (except for rest week), it's just that the specific sort of stress you are subject to varies. I just checked the ride I'm gonna do Friday - ouch: https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/114527-stromlo-4 - that's going to hurt!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 29 March, 2018, 12:22:39 am
my first ever aborted session today - after doing a warm-up i understood i've no chance/energy to complete the whole thing. hopefully i'll feel stronger tomorrow!

managed to complete this workout (williamson +4) today with only a couple of backpedals, a day of rest made a big difference!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 March, 2018, 05:59:44 pm
Extra rest made a massive difference to me as well.  Almost entirely on plan power wise:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/27772629

I've got a bike fit on Tuesday evening, so if I get time I'll do Tuesday's workout on Monday.

Saturday I'm riding my first ever (proper) 10.  I'm supposed to be doing this TR session https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/363857-dardanelles-1 - I assume I should probably do my 10 and then stick an extra half an hour threshold workout on top?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 March, 2018, 06:39:57 pm
I’d suggest ride your 10 and warm up and down and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 March, 2018, 08:05:29 pm
Last week I did a 3hr ride on the morning before my mid afternoon 10.   I hadn’t ridden the TT bike on the road since the previous Summer so it needed a test.   I took it very gently, though.

If it’s your first proper 10 then put your concentration into that and ignore training for the day.   You should be laid on the floor coughing for a while if you get it right, anyway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 March, 2018, 08:43:23 pm
This is the course: https://www.strava.com/activities/985665312/segments/24166405429
My best time of 27 something was when riding in TTT formation - on my own I only achieved this 29:50. Strava estimates 169 Watts, so I should be able to beat that given my current FTP is 256. I have no idea how quick I can go though - I'll just try 260W on the way to the turn and see how deep I can go on the way back...

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 April, 2018, 08:30:34 am
Can’t see the course on that link.

Has it got a course code ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 April, 2018, 09:46:24 pm
CC118 is what the segment is called - I think that's the name of the course?
This is the segment from the club website: https://www.strava.com/segments/1951541
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 April, 2018, 10:53:57 pm
Good luck with it. Have you seen the TT thread in the Racing section?

I'll be riding Yr Elenydd on Saturday. Slightly different.

Not had a good weekend training wise. Work has been keeping me up late and it's caught up with me, and I'm having a bit of rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 April, 2018, 09:08:45 am
Rubbish ride this morning.  https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/29073852
I spent a few minutes in each interval in the aerobars, but I felt pretty crap, I think I'm starting a cold, and we just ate junk and sat around on the weekend. Also sore bottom, which is why I cut it off short (bike fit this evening - hopefully this will help my position become more comfy).
Also took 2 goes at starting this ride - I got a new ANT+ dongle, so I tried using that on my laptop - it picked up the P1s for a while, but then towards the end of the warmup it lost connection, so I gave up and switched back to using bluetooth on my phone (had to start the session again).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 April, 2018, 10:24:33 am
If you're racing Saturday don't do anything hard after Wednesday.

I've got a 25 on Saturday afternoon and I'm doing some top end tempo intervals tonight and then just commuting for the rest of the week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 April, 2018, 11:01:42 am
The TR plan calls for Nightcap -1 on Thursday - that looks a bit too much like hard work. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/196719-nightcap-1
I was thinking I would do maybe 2 or 3 x 8 minute intervals around threshold trying to stay in my newly adjusted aero position. It's probably a good idea to try it before Saturday, and I find that riding at low power changes how I sit, so I'd rather give it some gas. Otherwise I won't be on the bike between Tuesday evening and Saturday morning, and that feels like too big a gap (especially for a 10).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 08 April, 2018, 06:51:53 pm
My cold has kicked in properly. I skipped the Thursday ride and did the TT yesterday - it was OK (though I can't breathe through my nose I don't think that made much difference to my time). Got family stuff happening this week, and it's a recovery week, so I'm definitely not doing the Tuesday ride - I might skip the Thursday one as well depending on how far past the cold I am.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 08 April, 2018, 07:11:19 pm
I follow a plan built using the principles contained in the book fast after fifty by Joe Friel.

He covers three basic intensities of intervals; aerobic capacity, lactate threshold, and aerobic threshold.  He covers nutrition and recovery. He covers testing. He covers periodisation. He covers efficiency factors. He covers strength work He covers a few other things as well, including how to build a plan

It contains some great advice, particularly if you miss an interval or cannot complete it. He also covers what the priority workouts should be during each period of training. The ones you should try and do, even if you miss lower priority ones.

Till this year I had never done structured training, but I am really enjoying it, and enjoying the results I am seeing.

Joe Friel also has a new version of the Cyclist's Training Bible out.  But so far I have found fast after fifty and building plans using knowledge contained within works well for me without getting too in depth. Though he does cover the biggest causes of decline in performance after fifty.

I listen to music during the workouts, but recently tried podcasts.  Sherlock Holmes does not work, too complicated a plot in the middle of an interval.  Adventures series, Kayaking the length of the Columbia River worked very well for me.

I am surprised as how well I have taken to it, but I think this is in part, because it allows me to enjoy my audaxes and road rides without worrying about how hard I am working. I can just enjoy the mental relaxation and scenery and other aspects of being on the road with no other concerns.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 April, 2018, 07:15:17 pm
I didn't ride Yr Elenydd as I'd planned to on Saturday. Good thing too - my new bike build has a few niggles. Front disc rubbing, and rear mudguard stay came loose twice on today's 41km hilly ride. I managed to sort out the disc rub with a hack involving a piece of cardboard folded over the disc to force the pads to reset. I'll need to replace the mudguard bolts used with longer ones (and without the stupid rounded head - those have smaller allen heads than the same M5 or whatever bolt, and the result is they strip before you get them tight enough).

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 April, 2018, 08:41:53 pm
My cold has kicked in properly. I skipped the Thursday ride and did the TT yesterday - it was OK (though I can't breathe through my nose I don't think that made much difference to my time). Got family stuff happening this week, and it's a recovery week, so I'm definitely not doing the Tuesday ride - I might skip the Thursday one as well depending on how far past the cold I am.

Snap.  Got up yesterday with a sore throat but decided to go out for the day anyway.  Did 2hrs before my 25 and a long warm down afterwards giving me 102 miles for the day.   I knew I had done something yesterday, but today I feel awful.   Pity as I was going to do one more hard week before we go on holiday for a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 08 April, 2018, 09:36:59 pm
Quote
I listen to music during the workouts, but recently tried podcasts

I like Netflix as with an Erg turbo it does not matter if you switch off.  However i have also used the Serial podcast in the last couple of weeks.  Engaging but not too much concentration needed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 April, 2018, 10:46:08 pm
Quote
I listen to music during the workouts, but recently tried podcasts

I like Netflix as with an Erg turbo it does not matter if you switch off.  However i have also used the Serial podcast in the last couple of weeks.  Engaging but not too much concentration needed.

I think Netflix etc are good for the easier workouts where you can just spin away. For stuff needing more focus I use music. AIUI, there is research suggesting a drop in performance if cognitive load is increased. Clearly with an erg trainer this effect would be minimised.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 09 April, 2018, 06:39:05 am
I would agree totally with the drop in  performance with too much cognitive load and a standard trainer. My experience is that during an interval on an erg trainer cognitive load makes little difference. The problem comes with changes.

Trainerroad I find with its ability to run minimised but still put warnings on the whole screen is perfect for me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 April, 2018, 09:55:13 am
I only really do higher end stuff on the turbo and I have to work to the notes written next to me and what the Garmin tells me.

Therefore I only use music playing wirelessly from my iPhone.   Preference at the moment is fir more dancer type stuff, which I believe the yoof no refer to as EDM.   Recent favourites have been live albums from Daft Punk and Underworld.   I have a couple of playlists of angry nu metal and have also strayed back, occasionally, to 80s hair metal with a bit of Def Leppard.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 09 April, 2018, 11:24:29 am
I would agree totally with the drop in  performance with too much cognitive load and a standard trainer. My experience is that during an interval on an erg trainer cognitive load makes little difference. The problem comes with changes.

Trainerroad I find with its ability to run minimised but still put warnings on the whole screen is perfect for me.
I find intervals harder if I'm watching YouTube over some hard core music so there is certainly a cognitive hook of some sort.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 April, 2018, 11:53:47 am
I think it depends on they type of interval. I find that longer steady ones are fine with podcasts (though there can be a risk that my focus drifts after a few minutes) - short sharp repeated ones are harder, and I often realise I've missed part of the podcast if I do them properly.
The type of podcast matters too - if I listen to Trainer Road or football ones then it's fine, but if I try to listen to coding ones then I really struggle - they need too much attention.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: giropaul on 09 April, 2018, 11:54:37 am
I was a soigneur for a team on Paris-Nice once. One team tried music, with an adjustable beat, played loudly from the team car for the final, uphill, time trial.
They had shown that the cyclist tries to pedal to the beat, consciously or not.
The UCI banned the practice just afterwards.

At the Wattbike sessions I do we discourage earphones or music for the same reasons, riders follow the beat not the specified revs. The best motivation, as stated by the session participants, is working in a group.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 April, 2018, 11:59:47 am
When I trained seriously (a generation ago), my best turbo sessions were done looking solely at the (cadence, power and heartrate) numbers with no distractions at all i.e. no music. I loathed those training sessions though and dropped them like a hot potato each year as soon as the track championships started.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 09 April, 2018, 04:11:17 pm
Is it just me who makes a playlist by bpm for cadence, then?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 April, 2018, 04:14:23 pm
I try to go by effort level for the music. I don't find the music affects my cadence. What I'd like is a playlist builder that looked at the workout and selected music to suit.

A close tennis match, on the other hand, causes my heart rate to be all over the place on a steady zone 2 effort.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 April, 2018, 07:18:44 pm
Is it just me who makes a playlist by bpm for cadence, then?

 :-\

The problem I have is that if I listen to the same music when doing normal tasks I start to get a bit tense.   I think I have developed a subconscious link between dance music and hurting myself.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 09 April, 2018, 09:12:13 pm
Is it just me who makes a playlist by bpm for cadence, then?
No, I have an FTP and ramp test playlist plus for everything else there's some hard and fast euro EDM to keep pace to....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 11 April, 2018, 09:03:00 am
Is it just me who makes a playlist by bpm for cadence, then?

 :-\

The problem I have is that if I listen to the same music when doing normal tasks I start to get a bit tense.   I think I have developed a subconscious link between dance music and hurting myself.
Well yeah. Coming into the outskirts of Paris last PBP my radio started playing some tracks from a spinning class. Mr Smith was a bit (unpleasantly) surprised by the boost from behind.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 13 April, 2018, 02:18:54 pm
I had a hard under/over session (McAdie) to do 10 days ago and it felt pretty grim from the off. Kept going but only by reducing the Intensity for the last couple of blocks. The TSS still managed to be higher than any prior session in my lengthy (month long!) TR "career" up to then. Cue a week+ of acute moaning man flu.

Well, a brief interlude of wellness followed that man flu before I succumbed to a lingering nasty cold/throat infection which still persists. All training out of the window for a few weeks now, with my TR sub mocking me daily.

Don't think I've ever had such a prolonged period of sickness. Any connection to the earlier much ramped-up workload is purely coincidental, I'm sure...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 13 April, 2018, 02:39:59 pm
Well, a brief interlude of wellness followed that man flu before I succumbed to a lingering nasty cold/throat infection which still persists. All training out of the window for a few weeks now, with my TR sub mocking me daily.

Don't think I've ever had such a prolonged period of sickness. Any connection to the earlier much ramped-up workload is purely coincidental, I'm sure...

It's a bugger, isn't it.  At the same stage myself with the lingering "swallowing broken glass" and coughing up phlegm thing going on, but have been persisting with trainer sessions in the gym and today pushed my HR to 176 (the highest I've recorded in a long time) during a simulated 10m hill climb.  No doubt a symptom of being unwell but happy to at least get some training in as I have my first event next Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 13 April, 2018, 02:52:37 pm
Well, a brief interlude of wellness followed that man flu before I succumbed to a lingering nasty cold/throat infection which still persists. All training out of the window for a few weeks now, with my TR sub mocking me daily.

Don't think I've ever had such a prolonged period of sickness. Any connection to the earlier much ramped-up workload is purely coincidental, I'm sure...

It's a bugger, isn't it.  At the same stage myself with the lingering "swallowing broken glass" and coughing up phlegm thing going on, but have been persisting with trainer sessions in the gym and today pushed my HR to 176 (the highest I've recorded in a long time) during a simulated 10m hill climb.  No doubt a symptom of being unwell but happy to at least get some training in as I have my first event next Sunday.

A kindred spirit! Bar the broken glass and foul stuff I actually feel pretty normal now so I'll probably do a super gentle session keeping the HR right down. Cheers.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 April, 2018, 03:54:26 pm
I'm in the same boat - done TR solidly since September and got my FTP up significantly, and then this rotten cold has come along and I've not been on the turbo for 2 weeks (I did a TT last Saturday and got a PB, but I wasn't anywhere near what I wanted). My wife and daughter have had the same bug, and to a similar level, so I don't think I got it worse because I'd been training...
Gonna have a bike fit on Sunday, so hopefully I can do an FTP test and get going again from then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 15 April, 2018, 11:10:23 am
A strange thing has happened.  Just finished my usual training lap of the "hills" of north London - a loop taking in Muswell Hill, Highgate Hill & Swains Lane - which comes in at exactly 15 miles.  Being in town there are obviously variations due to traffic, lights, etc, but I've been doing this for several years so times vary but are within a known range (~2 mins).

Anyway, got back and casually checked the Bolt and, lo, it was the fastest ever time by a full 5 minutes (53.06 vs previous 58.04).  I thought something must be wrong so double-checked everything but the stats are all correct.  This is fairly incredible!  I'm on the tail end of a bad cold and was coughing my lungs up by the end (sports-induced asthma?) but was determined to do a fast ride in preparation for my first event of the year next Sunday.

What has caused this increase in form is unclear.  The only change in my programme has been mixing up intervals on the trainer - 30 mins of fast efforts followed by 2 x 10 mins of 110% FTP at high resistance and low cadence (~60) staying seated - real killers!  Also I've been doing more goblet squats - 8 x 12 reps @ 40k three times a week.  They really seem to target the quads in a beneficial way for cycling.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 April, 2018, 10:00:29 am
I'm back into it now.  Bike fit Sunday morning - position fine on the hoods but I need a new saddle (so I can get forward and open up my hip angle while getting my back down low) and a -17 degree stem to get reasonably low in my aero bars. I followed that by a Ramp Test X (was supposed to be a 20 minute test but I didn't have the motivation).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/32966849
I stopped about 30 seconds before I did on my last one, so I guess my FTP has probably lost a few watts, but given I have hardly ridden in 2 weeks and I still have a rubbish head cold, I think that's not a bad outcome.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 16 April, 2018, 12:51:12 pm
i had a first big weekend of riding this year with 456km all in (audax plus club run), felt quite strong on both days although the club run was painful on sunday. my rule of thumb recovery time is one day for 100km ridden, so will be back on the trainer thursday or friday to start the final intensive week of build phase.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 April, 2018, 10:42:14 am
Well that hurt. Couldn't do the last interval, even with it turned down a bit:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/33045675

I guess being able to breathe is probably useful.  :-X
The new FTP from the ramp test came back as 248.  First time I've gone downwards, but not too bad given the caveats.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 18 April, 2018, 08:10:11 pm
Helped out with the first club TT last night so went and did it myself today far more motivational than an ftp test!
FTP up by 8 according to Xert and a good time to work on for the rest of the season especially as I had mudguards, Dynamo, etc on the bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 24 April, 2018, 10:34:14 am
I'm really struggling with getting my consistency back after my cold. I've now got 8 completed TR rides, 6 abandoned ones, and 2 outdoor rides in my current plan.
I've got another TT on Thursday, so that will be another outdoor ride, and Saturday I recced the course and tacked on a nearby hill, so that was a good solid ride with high consistent power and high TSS, but I slept badly again last night so I skipped this morning's TR ride.
I've not got my low stem or new saddle yet, so I will have to use my old position in the TT :( but I am planning on taking off the water bottle, sticking out pump etc and making the bike a bit cleaner. I need to bodge a bridge across my aero bars to attach a light to.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 24 April, 2018, 11:01:12 am
I'm really struggling with getting my consistency back after my cold. I've now got 8 completed TR rides, 6 abandoned ones, and 2 outdoor rides in my current plan.

My batch of colds / sore throat / chest infection took me out for a month; still have a very occasional tickly cough (habit?) but in all other regards feel restored to full health.

I've completed two TR sessions since returning, shifting to shorter duration "minus" variants of the specified workouts and dialing back the intensity to 95% half way through the over-unders. This may be a combination of loss of form due to the long break, perhaps compounded by a recent shift to accurate power measurement, rendering my previous FTP setting somewhat optimistic...

Planning another "minus" variant today, then a short break followed by (probably) an FTP test to reset my number to something accurate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 24 April, 2018, 11:50:44 am
Finished my first competitive ride of the year on Sunday and my optimism from the previous Sunday's training ride was largely validated.  A PB by 4.5 minutes (this time over a hilly 90-mile course), in spite of the recent lurgy, and placed 45th out of 600 (many of whom are pretty serious club riders on bling bikes riding in chain gangs) and 2nd in age category.  Never finished higher than 75th overall in the 8 previous rides of the same event.

The training seems to be working!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 27 April, 2018, 07:40:06 pm
The next 2 weeks (after tomorrow) of the TR 40k TT plan are "taper". I don't have anything in 2 weeks time, so that seems unnecessary to me. Is there any benefit in doing it, or should I return to a sustained power build plan?
I have no specific goals that I really need to be at my best for, I just want to keep building my fitness (and now I have my TT saddle and stem I can also work on my position).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 27 April, 2018, 07:56:35 pm
Taper as you know is to improve your form or freshness ahead of an event without losing too much fitness. So if no event no reason you can not do something higher volume and / or stress. Just watch out for overtraining / fatigue creeping in if you do not build in enough recovery in your plans.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 27 April, 2018, 08:01:39 pm
it's becoming too hot for me to train indoors; the windows are south facing and the temperature in the room is 21+ deg even when it's cloudy/rainy like today. could barely finish sweet spot session (with reduced intensity) which i normally find quite easy..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 28 April, 2018, 01:19:18 pm
it's becoming too hot for me to train indoors; the windows are south facing and the temperature in the room is 21+ deg even when it's cloudy/rainy like today. could barely finish sweet spot session (with reduced intensity) which i normally find quite easy..

South-facing training room here also. I've taken to keeping the blinds in the room down and window open near-permanently to stop the temp climbing. I use two high velocity fans currently and aim to squeeze in a third to help extend the turbo season. That plus a semi-illegal "cover your eyes" dress code...

Sheer madness, but needs must!, as I wish to stick to a TR plan as far as possible for the next 5 months. When the baking British sunshine scuppers me regardless, I'll hit the road or run instead.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 April, 2018, 02:17:36 pm
I'm in the garage.  It's been freezing all winter, but hopefully it will be OK in the summer!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 April, 2018, 10:55:00 pm
New saddle and stem (negative 17 degrees) put me in a much better TT position - lower at the front and much more forwards. My ride wasn't very good though:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/33541106

Possibly I was still a bit fatigued from the TT Thursday evening, but it didn't feel like I was quite high enough - I felt like all the power was coming from my quads, and eventually I cooked them. I'm going to do the next week and try to do it all in TT position (I've not donr a full week in ages), then I'll do a recovery week, and then I'll get after the Build phase again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 29 April, 2018, 03:23:59 am
I do a solid month of TR, join the local club TT group, go on holiday and hit the gym bike every day, I add in goblet squats (top tip😁). What happens? 2 days from end of holiday I get a running nose and cough!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 01 May, 2018, 08:50:43 am
But! The off-bike time was usefully spent by upgrading the turbo setup to erg and accurate power measurement ;D

I've an FTP test to look forward to, therefore, that will likely reveal my earlier virtual power numbers to have been somewhat optimistic...  :'(

Finally did another FTP test: it's dropped by 5 watts, but (very unusually for me) my weight's fallen too, which I partially attribute to the illness, with the overall result being 3.25 w/kg now from a virtual 3.2 previously.

I'm very happy with that result as it covers a period where the following all occurred:
- 5 weeks of TR sweetspot base programme, albeit spread over a much longer period, plus periodic running sessions at a similar intensity to the TR workouts.
- approx a month in total lost to cold, sore throat, tonsillitis and bronchitis - the works;
- switching from virtual power to a smart trainer with accurate power measurement.

I feel I've made progress, despite the sicknote, which I can tell during the short runs I do. I'm sure that the switch to accurate power measurement on the trainer is masking some of the underlying progress, ie. the earlier FTP virtual-derived number was perhaps overstated by ~5%.

I've founds erg mode makes TR easier to use - mentally less taxing - and the ramp test easier to execute: earlier I was sometimes struggling to find suitable gears (bike had quite wide ratios) as the steps ramped up, causing cadence to make big jumps.

When I first posted on this thread at the beginning of March, I was aiming to go from 3.2 w/kg to 3.5 w/kg by the end of the summer: a nearly 10% increase over 6 months appeared very achievable.

One third of that time has now passed, with only half a step forward. BUT I remain motivated, will stick to the plan and see where it gets me!  ;D

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 May, 2018, 10:33:48 am
I rode this morning and I was crap. The plan called for 4x 5minute intervals at ~FTP. I managed about 3 minutes in the aero position on the first one, and finished on the hoods. I managed about 2 minutes in the aero position on the second, but couldn't get my legs working on the hoods either, so just cooled down and stopped.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides-new/33652521

The aero position is approximately what I had when I did my TT fit, but it's a massive change compared to my normal road position (I sit quite far back normally, so to get low at the front I have to move where I sit forwards by about 4-5 cm!). I don't think I'm getting full leg extension having moved forwards so far, so I probably need to go up a bit, but it also just feels really strange. I need to spend a lot more time in this position to be able to get the power out there (and it's probably worth checking the position is decent aero-wise before I do and discover it's all wrong!).
However, I might be part of a 9 up TTT in a month or so, so I need to get training in the drops (no aero bars or pointy hats). I might just put my original saddle back on, lift the bars up a bit and do a Build to get my sustainable power back up, and come back to the TT position afterwards.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 02 May, 2018, 09:25:18 am
Don't unpick your position changes straight away.   I ended up with a similar position after a bike fit 5 years ago and it worked for me, although it's maybe not the existing TT fashion where saddles are going back again.   The forward postion/wider hip angle is a bit more tri-specific.

It's not uncommon for a marked difference in output between the 2 positions but you will adapt.   Perhaps re-test your power in position and then work from that ?   the difference will narrow over time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 May, 2018, 01:15:30 pm
I'm not going to completely ditch this TT position, but I can't ride it unless I'm in the aero bars, and that's not allowed for the TTT. I'll try to mix and match until the 9 up thing is done, and then I'll go back to TT focus and work on this position. I would just stick with it if it weren't for the TTT rules. 
I will probably get someone to take a few pictures of it and put them on the TT forum (will have to tidy up first!), I don't want to work towards a position and then discover that it's not aero anyway!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 May, 2018, 10:11:26 am
I started my new build today. I opted for the General Build because I felt that doing another sustained Power Build would be very samey. The FTP test is the 8 minute one - I wanted a workout so I stuck to the plan rather than going for the Ramp Test X like I have for the last few tests. As always, I paced it terribly - this time I realised towards the end of each effort that I had more available and at the end of the second effort I was able to do a minute at ~300W. The FTP came out at 239 (with my previous being 248), but I'm going to stick to my previous value thanks to my pacing ineptitude!
You can see it here: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/34121711-8-minute-ftp-test

I'm going to skip the Thursday workout, do the weekend one, skip next Tuesday as I've got a 10 mile TTT, and then hopefully I'll be back in the swing of getting up and getting the power down up. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 May, 2018, 08:15:40 pm
That was how workouts are supposed to be! It was really hard, and on the suggestion of the workout text I turned the intensity down a little (97%), but I did all the intervals, and there were lots of them!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/34373204-spanish-needle

It was hard to be precise, because to do 90rpm at 90W, and then jump to 350W (~110 rpm or so) and then repeat every 15 seconds meant I was always changing gear, and always not far from the next interval. 24 and a half minutes in the anaerobic section shows how tough it was.

Hopefully my legs are still good tomorrow - a 10 minute TTT race on Tuesday evening should be fun. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 May, 2018, 07:06:47 am
Racing and audax taking up a bit more time now so down to 2 pretty brief but hard turbo sessions a week, on top of commuting.

About 8 weeks of hard work left.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 19 May, 2018, 09:42:02 pm
I rode a TTT on Tuesday and rode to/from the event, so to limit my TSS I skipped Thursdays ride (also slept terribly). Today I did the scheduled Saturday ride, and it was really good. Despite the requirement for repeated 30 second sprints I stayed seated the whole time. 170 rpm is a new cadence record (27:10 in)!
The ride in general felt good - didn't need to bail on anything, only real difficulties were when I dropped down after the the sprints and couldn't hold - I could build back up again after a brief power drop though. My right calf felt tight at the start of the third set, but it sorted itself out - I think it was more a back/nerve issue than a muscular one.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/34673426-lion-rock
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 May, 2018, 09:48:14 am
Bah.  I got up early today to do a short under/over workout and make sure my position was OK with the TT bars and saddle. Sadly, my (P1) pedals wouldn't pair with my phone (or headunit). Eventually I decided to try replacing the batteries - they sprung into life but I didn't have time to do my workout. :(
Lithium batteries are hard to find in shops - I will have to put up with energisers for now and get some lithiums ready for next time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 June, 2018, 08:27:22 am
I'm mixing a TR Build plan (General build) with club team time trial rides. I did a ramp test yesterday (rather than Tuesday morning), and my FTP has gone up again: 261W.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/35283732-ramp-test

While the gaps in my cassette (11-32) are quite large, I was doing OK and moving down the cassette makes the gaps smaller. Then, just as it was beginning to get tough (around 290W), I ran out of gears! Had to change into the big ring, back up the cassette and into the gappy bit. It's really hard trying to hit the target power when you're just starting to blow up and you've a choice between 95rpm or sub 80 (I would ride a 20 minute test around 85-90)!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 July, 2018, 12:56:41 pm
Well it seems I've not recovered from the 400k the weekend before last, yet. Failed on Mills -4 today. CV fitness not really the issue - legs just felt heavy. As long as I'm ok in time for Peterborough Regatta a week on Saturday, it won't matter too much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 August, 2018, 08:53:16 am
I rode my bike with a TR workout yesterday for the first time since I hurt my foot (July 1 - torn ligament in foot due to landing on tiptoes falling over and bending the foot the wrong way). I chose Baxter, because it's low power, but after about 15 minutes my calf started to tighten up and I didn't want to push it so I did another 10 minutes super easy and then stopped. A whole 11 TSS! :) The rest of the system (foot, leg, other leg, CV system) felt like it was easy, so hopefully I've not completely destroyed my fitness! The only time my foot hurt was when the time came to unclip!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/37967290-baxter-2
The physio has given me calf stretches and raises, because the initial swelling, followed by limping and avoiding bending my foot has caused tightness in the calf and the plantar fascia. Possibly even some trauma in the original injury too. I'm thinking I'll ride a couuple more times this week, hopefully get up to 1 hour without pain, and then next week I'll drop my FTP by 30W and start a base training plan. The traditional base looks quite boring, but it'll probably be a good start - avoid applying too much force too soon...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 August, 2018, 09:17:32 am
Good luck with recovery and getting back into it.

No time for TR at the moment. Rowing water session on Saturday nearly finished us off. Stroke threw up by the 3rd piece of our 6x500m and I was dry heaving at the end of 4th and 5th. We called it at that point, had 45 minutes rest then went out again and did 11km of UT2 (rowing equivalent of endurance) with some bursts. Everyone was totally done in. So I had a rest day yesterday - back on the water tonight.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 August, 2018, 09:50:39 am
That sounds brutal. Is this some sort of training camp before a big event?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 August, 2018, 10:24:40 am
That sounds brutal. Is this some sort of training camp before a big event?

We’re racing at Peterborough Regatta on Saturday and Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 August, 2018, 10:31:26 am
That sounds brutal. Is this some sort of training camp before a big event?

We’re racing at Peterborough Regatta on Saturday and Sunday.

How did the racing go?

I got through most of a TR workout on Saturday, and I only cut it short because I had to go deal with dinner. :) I cut my FTP from 261 to 231 before I started it - given the threshold interval wasn't super duper hard, I think that may be a slight underestimate.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/38225080-mount-goode-4
My calf muscle was pretty good and my foot was fine (during the ride), so I think I'm probably good to do a ramp test (tomorrow) and get back into TR properly (back to Sweet Spot base I think). I've got a club TT a week on Saturday, so I'll get to ride that, but my hopes of significantly improving my time from the spring are going to have to rest on faster equipment (I'm moving from a road endurance bike with clip-ons to my fixie with a lower front end, more aero wheels and faster rolling tyres) rather than more W!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 August, 2018, 11:30:42 am
That sounds brutal. Is this some sort of training camp before a big event?

We’re racing at Peterborough Regatta on Saturday and Sunday.

How did the racing go?

I got through most of a TR workout on Saturday, and I only cut it short because I had to go deal with dinner. :) I cut my FTP from 261 to 231 before I started it - given the threshold interval wasn't super duper hard, I think that may be a slight underestimate.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/38225080-mount-goode-4
My calf muscle was pretty good and my foot was fine (during the ride), so I think I'm probably good to do a ramp test (tomorrow) and get back into TR properly (back to Sweet Spot base I think). I've got a club TT a week on Saturday, so I'll get to ride that, but my hopes of significantly improving my time from the spring are going to have to rest on faster equipment (I'm moving from a road endurance bike with clip-ons to my fixie with a lower front end, more aero wheels and faster rolling tyres) rather than more W!

Nice work.

We had a decent result on Saturday. We came second in the masters A/B race. This was harder than expected. The two other crews (one scratched) had a 2-second start and we overtook one of them but the other basically held onto that advantage for the whole 1000m. That was our fastest row of the day.

Then we had the Open band 2 heat, which we won fairly comfortably. 1st and 2nd through to the final. In the final we had a really tough race with Peterborough City winning and us second. They were a really strong crew.

Coming second in this event gets us more ranking points than any previous event where we've won. We get points for all the crews in band 3 - we are assumed to have beaten all of them. I think it could be as many as 14 points as there were 8 in our band and 8 in the lower band. As the results are all timed it was the case that we were faster than everyone in the lower band and there was a clear distinction. Band 1 times were faster again, but with a smaller gap.

On Sunday we came third in our heat, behind Peterborough and Cambridge 99s. We looked at the times afterwards, and the draw was really unkind to us. Across the three heats the three fastest boats were Peterborough, That 99s crew, and then us. At least we didn't have to race again, Saturday was really hard work, I've never felt so knackered getting out of a boat as after Saturday's final.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 August, 2018, 01:49:52 pm
That sounds like a successful if extremely hard weekend - congrats...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 August, 2018, 08:53:51 am
I did my promised Ramp test despite waking up feeling crap. Bad idea!
My achillies tendon was sore between 120 and 160W, then my calf, then above 200 it all seemed OK. Felt comfortable around 230W, but didn't feel like I had any zip.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/38412700-ramp-test

I gave up rather than failed, so I think that the suggested FTP of 209W is on the low side and I've ignored it! I did 12 minutes at 231W on the weekend, and that was hard but it didn't kill me. It feels like my base fitness is still OK but above threshold I don't have much extra. This weekend (assuming it stops raining!) I'm going to ride my favorite TT course on my fixie and see how that goes. I did 28:30 on the day when I mangled my foot - if I can ride it without (unusual) pain and go under 30 minutes then I'll ride the club event in a weeks time - if I suck or if the foot/achillies really hurts then I will just volunteer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 August, 2018, 12:01:06 pm
The foot was only sore on low cadence climbing (the way to/from the TT course). The TT itself was OK, except for the fact it was super windy and I've definitely lost fitness. My bars didn't slip, but I found it hard to hold the aero position (my right shoulder was particularly painful), so had to have some short breaks on the base bars. 29:30 ish isn't too bad, given I was only a minute slower before my month and a half off the bike! Gonna ride the TT on Saturday and see how it goes. :)

TR file here:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/38543107-stadhampton-foot-and-fixie-test

If I TT this bike next year I'm gonna have to practise putting power down at high rpm or get some bigger gears - I couldn't produce much power on the downhill part (with a tailwind).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 20 August, 2018, 09:22:46 pm
When I approached my coach at the end of 2016 and said I struggled into the wind and on drags I suggested this was something to be worked on.   He said we should try the opposite and to learn to spin faster.   Turbo drills were all done at 100-120rpm in TT position.

Seemed to really pay off over time as I can spin a 94” gear at 34/35 mph on a tailwind dual carriageway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 21 August, 2018, 10:32:19 am
I guess the difference is that while I can spin at up to 140rpm (I think my max is somewhere around 170 but that's more like hanging on than spinning!), I can't produce much force, so my power is really low. On the turbo I can produce force at that rpm - I think that there's very little flywheel effect, so if I stop pedalling then the wheel stops sharpish - obviously this is different on the road at 30mph! Do you notice that when you're on the turbo? I've not yet tried bolting my fixie into the turbo, so that's probably worth a go at some point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 August, 2018, 10:40:52 am
If you use a smart trainer you can get the flywheel effect by using a bigger gear in erg mode.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 21 August, 2018, 10:54:16 am
Sadly I only have a dumb trainer.  It's one of these I got secondhand: https://tacx.com/product/booster/ I suspect the "high resistance at low speeds" bit means that it's more resistive than flywheely.
I tend to run it with the level set to 4 (out of 10). The lever is so stiff I actually broke it - now if I need to change the level I use pliers! I vary my resistance during workouts using gears - I tend to be big ring, middle cog when >200W.

My daughter has been making noises about wanting to join me for garage cycling.  Maybe that's an opportunity to get some rollers (her bike has 20" wheels, so it doesn't go in many turbos). ;) I'm assuming that spinning on rollers has a good flywheel effect (though learning to ride a fixed in a TT position on them might take a little while)?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 21 August, 2018, 11:28:37 am
I have a basic Tacx magnetic turbo with 10 resistance settings.  At the moment I do everything, apart from my warm down on level 4.  For intervals I’m doing anything between 95 and 140rpm, recoveries are 50-60rpm.   Warm down is 100rpm but on resistance setting 1, slowly dropping to 50rpm over 10 minutes.  I never stop pedalling during a turbo session.

Nothing any cleverer than that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 21 August, 2018, 12:02:22 pm
I'll try just picking a suitable ratio and riding it in just the one gear then.  I don't stop pedalling when on the turbo unless I'm getting off! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 September, 2018, 10:36:40 am
I had a proper go at an FTP test today as I get back into base training. The banana before helped (I often struggle with high power efforts if it's before breakfast). Still riding my geary bike as the fix is currently in pieces (new cranks arriving soon).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39245509-ramp-test

New FTP of 240W.  That's not bad at all, considering that I've had a couple of months of almost no riding thanks to my foot (I tested at 261W just prior to that). The foot was pretty sore at the end (and for a while afterwards), but is OK now. Gonna settle in and see how much a few months of Sweet Spot base can lift that number up. This time last year my FTP was 171 - I've got to get used to the idea of getting up early and doing the work now though.

Might experiment with a hillclimb on the fix in a couple of weeks, so I've got to get going on TR before then!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 September, 2018, 12:51:07 am
Rowing has taken all my time this year. Last regatta on Saturday. We have the rest of September off. I won’t stop rowing but it will be a lower volume and chance to reset.

While that is going on I’ll do a ramp test and jump back into low volume sweet spot base.

Good work on the FTP test. Starting this training block much higher than last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 September, 2018, 09:06:08 am
Good luck Saturday.

Back on the early morning riding routine (Tuesday and Thursday 6-7am). It's not even cold at the moment - I hope it gets easier or I'm gonna really struggle when it gets cold! I wonder if I've conditioned myself to run more on sugar over the summer. Workout was reasonable though...
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39336662-mount-field
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 September, 2018, 06:55:50 pm
Good luck Saturday.

Thanks!

We made the final. It didn’t go our way this time against a good crew from Warwick.

Now for a bit of a break from the intensity of training we’ve had. Ramp test in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 September, 2018, 09:30:22 am
Ramp test doesn't sound like a break from intensity. :)

I did a strange ride yesterday outside. A guy on a hybrid came along to a social, and I ended up riding with him and taking a shortcut to the cafe. We rode back together, but when we got back, it didn't feel like much of a ride, so I blasted a couple of hills on my way home - the total time was 4 hours for 160 TSS and I got 58 of them in the last 28  minutes!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39477986-meet-the-condors-

My legs are feeling a bit cooked today, I don't think it was advisable to do a 300 TSS week as my first week back.  ::-) Might have to take tomorrow easy and back it off a touch, otherwise I doubt I will sustain the consistency that produces the best returns.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 September, 2018, 05:43:10 pm
Ramp test doesn't sound like a break from intensity. :)

Might scale back my plans for this week as I'm still feeling a but under the weather.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 12 September, 2018, 09:42:20 pm
After a summer of little riding because, reasons, (grrr, given the weather)  Im contemplating climbing back on the trainer with a view to proper prep for a tour next spring. Just looked at my FTP history in TR, three years ago it was 299, I think I'll be starting at about 200 :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 September, 2018, 11:15:17 am
I've forgotten quite how hard sweet spot is supposed to be. 220W was surprisingly easy today, my only concern was whether it was making my knee hurt, not my legs/lungs exploding. I remember really struggling with some sweet spot stuff in the past. Maybe the banana before/during was a factor in this - usually I would be doing it early in the morning with no breakfast.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39656694-monitor
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 September, 2018, 11:16:56 am
Oooh got access to the calendar feature woo. (Still Beta I think)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 September, 2018, 11:18:33 am
Oooh got access to the calendar feature woo. (Still Beta I think)
Oooh.  I want a go at that! :)
Did you ask for it to be enabled? And is that on the website or just in the app?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 September, 2018, 11:20:43 am
Oooh got access to the calendar feature woo. (Still Beta I think)
Oooh.  I want a go at that! :)
Did you ask for it to be enabled? And is that on the website or just in the app?

Web only. There is a google form to request access, which I filled in a few days ago.

Request access here https://goo.gl/forms/sO1hAWfdxF2Gjjwb2

Also, beta tester facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TrainerRoadBetaTesters/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 September, 2018, 10:33:35 am
I have Calendar access now.  It's really cool. :)

On Saturday I sorted out my fixie, and then hammered the 6km home (including up what passes for a big hill around here).
On Sunday my quads were super stiff, but I did my TR workout anyway, and they loosened up after the first interval. It was a sweet spot one, and to get the power I could either do a cadence of 85rpm ish or one of 100 ish. The 85ish was definitely easier, but I know I need to spin more, so I did some sections of 100ish. I completed it, and it felt like it went really well.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39656694-monitor

Today my quads are tight, and my right hip flexor is sore (made more so by bouncing up the stairs to get something my daughter forgot before school). I can't remember what it was like when I was doing Tuesday-Thursday-Saturday before in terms of how much discomfort I had on the following day, but it feels like I've been working hard. I'm supposed to be doing a hill climb on Saturday (on the fixed), but I'm not sure it's a good plan if my hip flexor is bad. Gonna see how tomorrow's workout goes before I make my mind up I think... The plan has 3 more weeks of proper work before the recovery week - I think I may struggle by the end as I did too much stress in week 1 (second highest ever since I've had power) and now it's catching up with me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 September, 2018, 10:37:35 pm
Did ramp test earlier. 229W. It’ll have to do. Aim for 250W by Christmas. This would be ahead of last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 September, 2018, 08:58:18 am
Ahead of last year is always good. :)
I didn't ride this morning - my daughter woke me up twice last night, and so when the alarm went at 5:42 I just turned it off and stayed in bed!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 18 September, 2018, 09:08:39 am
Training for next year starts Mon 5th November.  In the meantime just enjoying riding the bike.

Must finish the Winter bike at some point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 September, 2018, 11:50:06 pm
So I switched Mount Field for Monitor tonight; I also tried out SiS Beta Fuel.

I don't know if I ate something bad earlier but I struggled to reach the end of the 5th interval intact, and had to stop and go to the loo during the rest interval. Back for the final interval, and had to go after I finished the workout and again about 15 minutes later.

The workout was harder than expected. An upset stomach won't have helped.

I'm hoping it's not the Beta Fuel - if it was then it's a good job I didn't try it out at a regatta!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 September, 2018, 09:23:53 am
If you listen to the TR podcast, "don't try anything new during a race" seems to be one of their mantras.
I did a part of a workout this morning, but I was tired (woken up by my daughter and my wife last night!), and my hip flexor is still playing up.  I think it's to do with how I'm sitting at work. Also, it's supposed to be about spinning fast, but Saturday I'm going to be doing a hillclimb, and if I use my fixie then I reckon even with my new gearing I'm going to be averaging about 60 cadence. I tried riding the second interval at low cadence, but I didn't really feel like I wanted to go below 70 - the trainer "feel" really doesn't help with low cadences.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/39989650-ericsson

Also, I weighed myself this morning, and I've put on 5 pounds since I last weighed myself about a month ago.  That's not going to help hillclimbing. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 20 September, 2018, 10:50:07 am
Anyone got any recommendations for turbo tyres ?   I've been through 2 Continental Hometrainers but they seem to develop cracks along the tread fairly quickly.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 23 September, 2018, 01:35:34 pm
I've just been using the conti roadsport that came with the bike.  Though I don't do anywhere near the mileage you do (and it is going a bit square).
After yesterday's hill climb (went well, 68rpm up in 7:32 - power PB from 1:30 to 7:32 of 332 normalized, and 150rpm down), I was probably a bit ambitious planning on doing my Saturday TR ride today. I got through one 20 minute sweet spot interval, but got quite cold in the rest period and my quad tightened up, so I called it early and did some stretching. Now my quad feels fine, but my hip flexor/groin on the right is definitely complaining. Hopefully it's just tightness and I can do the next workout on Tuesday. My cold might have gone by then as well.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/40144399-eclipse
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 September, 2018, 11:13:08 am
Tried again last night, did Carillon - no stomach issues. It's not the Beta Fuel as I used that again.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 September, 2018, 11:13:11 am
TR’s calendar is now out of beta.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 27 September, 2018, 12:03:29 pm
I played with it a bit when it was in Beta, it's pretty cool. Sadly I have a cough and a crappy cold, so I've not ridden since the weekend - I'm going to have to use the calendar to move everything one week!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 27 September, 2018, 01:05:52 pm
I really like the calendar.  I have started some weight training and TR allows me to log these with a notional TSS based on RPE.

I should get a chance to try the new calendar in the PC app tonight when i do my session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 September, 2018, 05:13:49 pm
Everything I've been doing (i.e. rowing, cycling, weights) has been logged in Strava and Trainingpeaks and also ends up in TR.

I'd like to be able to ditch TrainingPeaks. TR aren't quite there yet. For one thing, if it's not swim run or cycle it's "other". I want to have more categories.

I'd also like them to estimate TSS from heart rate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 27 September, 2018, 07:49:27 pm
Yes - I think when they get HRtss sorted that might be it for TP.  I'm going to experiment with the new calendar in the next week readying for next years adventures

Just in case peeps might have missed it, I note on the TR forum that they have a price increase coming but you can lock in the current price if you are already a subscriber/subscribe before 8th Oct  Details here:  https://forum.trainerroad.com/t/trainerroad-pricing-update-but-you-until-oct-8th-2018-to-lock-in-at-current-pricing/667
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 29 September, 2018, 01:59:14 pm
i did a ramp test today and really struggled with the motivation to push myself to the max. this resulted the ftp drop of 31w or 4.6 -> 4.0w/kg. i reckon my real figure is around 4.2 now, provided i'm hyped up have mental capacity to suffer. i'll redo the test next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 29 September, 2018, 04:08:37 pm
Any sort of FTP test pushes your mental strengths as much as your physical ones, but the difference with the ramp is that you get a rubbish number - if you quit on the 20 or 8 minute tests than you don't get a result at all. I'd endorse your plan to re-test next week with good motivation. :)

I just rode outside for fun today - I've got a horrible cough so I'd not been riding this week, and it's sunny and reasonably warm outside. Gotta make the best of it. :) I'll resume the TR plan on Tuesday after missing a week...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 October, 2018, 12:43:35 pm
I rode Tuesday, but cut it with 1 interval left because I was running late.
Today was Geiger, and it felt quite hard. Right hamstring tightened up after a few minutes of the last interval. I rode through it, and then my right calf tightened, followed by my right quad and adductor. I could maintain power by using my left a bit more and giving my right some lower power breaks. Too much time slightly below power means I spent lots of time in the Tempo range, but Sweet Spot is quite a narrow band, so I guess that's not terrible. At least I got 2 TR rides in this week - I need to re-establish my consistency.
Tuesday: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/40679697-tunnabora
Today: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/40827270-geiger

I think I'm getting these effects on my right leg as a consequence of injuring my right foot this summer. I doubt I can train and also do corrective work, I'm hoping that as I train it will gradually drag up to the same as the other leg. I'll probably go back to my physio in a week or two, but the foot is almost completely better - these lingering effects are annoying me now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 October, 2018, 02:38:29 pm
Stretched before I went to bed last night.  Woke up in the middle of the night with my back spasming. I think I need to do some core work (and sit better at work).
Will see if I can fit lifting weights twice a week into my routine - it'll help with maintaining functional power and bone density and with any luck help with top end cycling power too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 October, 2018, 02:45:11 pm
https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/heal-your-lower-back-pain-with-these-5-yoga-poses
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 October, 2018, 04:36:13 pm
I got up and did 1,3, and 4b last night when I woke up in pain!
Improved today - I think the chair at my desk is causing some of the issues - the arms stop it going under the desk properly so I can't use the backrest and reach my keyboard/see my screens properly. I shall bring my allen keys in on Monday and remove them. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 05 October, 2018, 07:46:47 pm
I have just found the Max overload for cyclists book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bicycling-Maximum-Overload-Cyclists-Magazine/dp/1623367743/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bicycling-Maximum-Overload-Cyclists-Magazine/dp/1623367743/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=) and have done 5 sessions.  I like the emphasis on deadlifts rather than squats and the whole body nature of the workout.

Hopefully it will help along with TR to build some strength and stamina.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 08 October, 2018, 09:40:24 am
I will check out that book...

Saturday I felt better, so I did Warlow as scheduled.  It went pretty well and my back was fine - I found the valleys hard in the last interval but I could hold the overs. Hopefully that means I'm on track - I've only got a couple of weeks of SSB1 to go and then I'll do a ramp test for SSB2 and see if I've made progress.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/40991046-warlow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on 08 October, 2018, 06:15:38 pm
This almost sounds too good to be true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAQ73OJdwY

What does the assembled panel reckon?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 08 October, 2018, 10:13:50 pm
Interesting concept. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 October, 2018, 09:34:36 am
Sounds like the whole "long slow" approach to base. I guess how much of a benefit it is depends on what your training is for.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 09 October, 2018, 10:02:14 am
It's Maffetone training. I've tried it - it's really boring. Also - the Maffetone upper limit of 180-age (122 for me) is way too low - I can't even sit on a bike without my HR getting close to 100, even though my resting HR is in the 50s.

Looks like this guy uses 60% of max, which is 114 for me; again - I can't ride a bike at that, and you can forget running; as soon as I have two feet off the pavement at the same time, my HR is 140+.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 October, 2018, 10:06:20 am
So much for being back on track. I really sucked today - couldn't get the legs/lungs going at all, then my back tightened up and I quit and went and did some stretching instead.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/41219091-carillon
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 October, 2018, 10:26:13 am
So all I’ve managed cycling wise last week is a 20 mile stready ride.

Re the YouTube link above, it’s followed by another on intervals from the same guy. I think what he is describing is polarised training. So you’d do anything but sweet spot.

Not enough hours in the day for me to buy into that approach, sadly.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnAKD1Q8PRQ-lo2fMXbYdLyaJUHznbfvG
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 October, 2018, 01:11:47 pm
I'm lucky if I can get 4 hours training in a week, so that's not for me either. Slept horribly, so didn't get up for my workout this morning. Hopefully sleep better tonight and do the workout tomorrow instead. Sleep doesn't matter if I ride later in the day, but I can't sleep badly and then get up and be good on the bike. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 12 October, 2018, 09:46:10 am
Slept better, so back on it today.  Was OK - I need to focus better and keep it in the sweet spot zone more - too much of the ride was in tempo.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/41399717-tallac
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 October, 2018, 08:47:30 pm
So I had a day today where I wasn't doing rowing training. So I did Antelope, which I found very tough. I dropped to 95% and then 90% to get through it.

Given I did a sculling session and then circuit training yesterday I probably did ok all things considered.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 October, 2018, 09:39:37 pm
Sculling and then circuits the day before a TR ride? That would kill me (and Antelope is hard).

Last full bore workout of SSB1 today:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/41521465-palisade
It's not an easy workout, and I found it really tough (had a day on my feet yesterday). Should probably have eaten immediately before as well. Still, next week is a rest week and I'm away on the weekend, so I'll do an easy ride Tuesday and a Ramp Test on Thursday, before kicking off SSB2 next Thursday. Hopefully the ramp test will show that I've made progress. Comparing this SSB1 to my first one last year, I have definitely found it harder to hit my power numbers (then again, my FTP is 70W higher now). I can live with struggling if I'm improving. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 16 October, 2018, 08:36:34 pm
Training is supposed to resume 5th Nov.

Managed to royally f*ck my body up last week.   Hopefully it can all be sorted out before then.  Will be a longer road back than I planned.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 October, 2018, 09:12:34 pm
That doesn't sound good. :(
What did you do? If you can find some way of doing moderate exercise (eg pool) then you may not lose as much of what you have now as you would think?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 October, 2018, 11:35:28 am
That doesn't sound good. :(
What did you do? If you can find some way of doing moderate exercise (eg pool) then you may not lose as much of what you have now as you would think?

I went out for a gentle spin in the park lunchtime last Thursday and was brought down by an errant dog off its lead.   I'm very bruised all down one side with the hip taking the brunt.   I also cracked my helmet on the way down.   My biggest problem is with my right hand.   It was checked over in A&E and I was told it wasn't broken but it feels very bruised and I struggle to brake and have to watch out for bumps in the road.

I'm still commuting, but I had a big weekend planned with 200 mile days for Sat & Sun as a test for the Race Around the Netherlands next year.   The forecast actually looks OK so I'm pretty annoyed.   I was on schedule for 20,000 road k's this year, but I figure I'll now miss this.

I haven't ridden the turbo since I last raced in July but it's all set up again with my new position.   I suspect I'll put a couple of sessions in next week if I can't keep the road miles up.   I'm also entered for Wilkyboy's 200 the following Saturday but I'll have to monitor things.

I expect I won't time trial until June next year so it's probably not a big loss overall but I really struggle to do nothing.   At least the garage is really neat now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 October, 2018, 01:34:33 pm
Ouch. Sounds like it was expensive as well as time consuming, painful, and putting a dent in your riding plans.
Gotta ask (contractual obligation)- was the bike OK?  ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 October, 2018, 03:03:14 pm
Ouch. Sounds like it was expensive as well as time consuming, painful, and putting a dent in your riding plans.
Gotta ask (contractual obligation)- was the bike OK?  ;)

Front wheel slightly out of true.   Scraped bar tape, scrape on the side of the (new) B17.   Only finished putting this bike together the week before.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 25 October, 2018, 03:50:33 pm
I'm going to give Zwift another go. Trainer Roads is all well and good, but staring at numbers for an hour is really dull.

It'll soon be time to stir in some C2 time too. At the moment, I suspect my one-pack is too big for me to row effectively. I done got fat.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 October, 2018, 04:05:41 pm
We were down at the rowing club doing 3x10m:3r intervals last night. Supposed to be UT1 intensity (I think this could be considered roughly tempo or sweet-spot in cycling terms).

Heart rate for the same work is coming down nicely. One guy clearly struggles to limit his pace to keep to the heart rate zone; he hit 185bpm last night. That way lies burn-out.

I'd have rather we did 4x10m but was told no by our coach. Do another workout some other time if you want more volume.

I was supposed to gym this lunchtime but left my kit behind. So I'm going to have some time alone with TrainerRoad this evening. Plan says Eclipse but my legs probably will disagree given this has been a heavy week.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 25 October, 2018, 04:50:27 pm
I'm going to give Zwift another go. Trainer Roads is all well and good, but staring at numbers for an hour is really dull.

It'll soon be time to stir in some C2 time too. At the moment, I suspect my one-pack is too big for me to row effectively. I done got fat.
I think you can integrate the two, and certainly, once you've done a workout you can save it. I'm surprised that there's not a download site containing every TR workout imported in to zwift. I've kept all my workouts from when I subscribed to Todays Plan.

Sent from my Lenovo P2a42 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 25 October, 2018, 05:57:59 pm
It's just a little thing, but I've just found out that Trainerroad can now pull in data from Garmin Connect, so all my rides appear in it's analysis. Still have some without power data mind, but I can live with that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 25 October, 2018, 06:01:16 pm
It's just a little thing, but I've just found out that Trainerroad can now pull in data from Garmin Connect, so all my rides appear in it's analysis. Still have some without power data mind, but I can live with that.

I thought it could for a while but it may only be since Calendar came along.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 October, 2018, 06:10:19 pm
It’s been pulling in data for some time in anticipation of the calendar feature.

I wish they’d calculate TSS for rides with no power data.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 25 October, 2018, 08:09:09 pm
I am impressed by how easy it is to get the estimate.  Most of my non power data rides are commuting and i have enough training peaks detain the various routes I use that i can just get it to calculate it, but I agree it is a faff.

I think they have gone down the "we are a power company" just a little far and using HrTSS would be helpful.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 25 October, 2018, 08:57:52 pm
Had a look and there’s a Garmin IQ ‘app’ to calculate hrTSS.

Not sure if anyone has used it? If so, will it calculate hrTSS when no power meter is in use, but default to power based TSS when power data is available?

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 October, 2018, 10:40:22 pm
Carter tonight (steady 45m). Average HR 131 which is about as low as I've seen on this workout.

I feel a ramp test in my future.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 October, 2018, 01:56:52 pm
Ramp test today.  Sucked.
I did a ride with my daughter that took an hour and a half, but had only 45 minutes of actual riding. As a result I was freezing! I tried to get a bit warm and then get into the garage and do the Ramp test, but I never got going.  guess I should have done an extended warmup and not turned my fan on until I was actually hot, but I didn't realise how much it would affect my performance. I just didn't get going, I couldn't spin properly at all, and I bogged down a couple of times before finally quitting as I approached my limits.
The recommendation was for a 233FTP, but I'm gonna re-do it I think.
My pedals are left only at the moment - they ran out of batteries and then I damaged one of the caps that holds them in (if I switch the cap to the other side then that one works, so it's clearly the cap). A pair of new caps are on order - I'll do the ramp again when I have both pedals working (and my legs working). I should get an HR monitor as well (my Polar one has finally died).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/42339295-ramp-test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 October, 2018, 09:30:37 am
Only 1% improvement. Bah.

229 => 233. Only good news is that it's not a drop.

Perhaps not surprising - I really need to do more cardio.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on 30 October, 2018, 09:39:27 am
That’s 2%.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 October, 2018, 10:26:55 am
TR rounded down maybe. It’s 1.7%
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 October, 2018, 01:19:21 pm
At least it's in an upward trajectory. ;)
Last year I was getting up when snow was on the ground to get in the garage and do my turbo session, but the cold this week has made it really hard to be motivated. I'm going to re-jig my calendar to do another ramp test tomorrow (with working battery caps) - I'm not looking forward to it!
Sunday might be my first ever cyclocross race (if I can work out the childcare for my daughter - she's racing at 9:30 and mine's at 11:30). Then I'm back on the TR routine until Christmas - hopefully that will get my FTP going in the right direction again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 October, 2018, 01:28:01 pm
I have the same result in October this year as I got in December last year. So I’m hoping a solid block of training will put me ahead by then.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 30 October, 2018, 01:33:52 pm
I too need to do a ramp test, so I know roughly where to set the bar for an FTP test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 October, 2018, 03:19:34 pm
I have the same result in October this year as I got in December last year. So I’m hoping a solid block of training will put me ahead by then.
You've been doing it a while though, right?
I only started structured training last year, so I'm miles ahead of where I was then, but I'm quite far behind where I was in June.
I too need to do a ramp test, so I know roughly where to set the bar for an FTP test.
The TR ramp is supposed to be an FTP test. If you are on TR, why would you want to do 2?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 30 October, 2018, 04:06:36 pm
I'm really struggling to adhere to anything planned - wrote of most of last week but did go for a ride up a hill which resulted in a higher than ramp test FTP (by about 20W!) on teh Xert FTP estimator app.

If I CBA I'll try for the scheduled session tonight, but I am really not motivated at the moment!
200km at the weekend should help with this weeks TSS though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 October, 2018, 04:07:33 pm
I have the same result in October this year as I got in December last year. So I’m hoping a solid block of training will put me ahead by then.
You've been doing it a while though, right?
I only started structured training last year, so I'm miles ahead of where I was then, but I'm quite far behind where I was in June.

I've been using TR since 2015 but have had a number of breaks due to injury or illness and of course when spending a summer season racing in boats my FTP always seems to end up lower at the end of summer.

Last year I got my wrist injury early October and caught a heavy cold around the same time, and did not get rid of a subsequent cough until I'd been ill for 6 weeks and had a course if antibiotics - so my FTP was set down at 210W when I started training again at the end of October. So its 11% higher than 12 months ago.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 October, 2018, 04:08:10 pm
I'm really struggling to adhere to anything planned - wrote of most of last week but did go for a ride up a hill which resulted in a higher than ramp test FTP (by about 20W!) on teh Xert FTP estimator app.

If I CBA I'll try for the scheduled session tonight, but I am really not motivated at the moment!
200km at the weekend should help with this weeks TSS though.

I've estimated that 200km => 300TSS. We'll see!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 30 October, 2018, 05:05:14 pm
The TR ramp is supposed to be an FTP test. If you are on TR, why would you want to do 2?

Hmm... they may claim that, but to my mind it would only be an approximation. I was going to use the result of the ramp test to know better how to judge the pace on a 20 minute effort; given that I nearly always start too hard and blow up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 30 October, 2018, 05:40:41 pm
I'm really struggling to adhere to anything planned - wrote of most of last week but did go for a ride up a hill which resulted in a higher than ramp test FTP (by about 20W!) on teh Xert FTP estimator app.

If I CBA I'll try for the scheduled session tonight, but I am really not motivated at the moment!
200km at the weekend should help with this weeks TSS though.

I've estimated that 200km => 300TSS. We'll see!

My template in TP for a 200km Audax is 450TSS (0.7IF) but it depends on the day, last one was 568TSS (217km, hilly and wet), and the dutch (flat) one before that was 240TSS (211km) - one prior to that was pretty bang on at 451TSS (213km, a bit of lumpy Suffolk and some bridleways included)...  quite a spread and of course this all depends on getting the FTP bit right too!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 31 October, 2018, 09:03:46 am
Better Ramp Test today.
It was freezing again (I rode at 6am in the garage - the car on the drive was registering -1 at 7am), but I didn't turn my fan on at all.  Started off wearing a hat, gloves, jacket, long sleeve jersey and short sleeve jersey (and shorts obv). Finished wearing just the gloves, ss jersey (undone) and shorts and sweat dripping off my nose! I focussed on spinning more early in the warm up and the whole thing just felt like I could get it going properly.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/42528387-ramp-test

The big gap where I have stopped pedalling but the ramp is still going is because I was pressing the wrong button when it asked if I wanted to end the test!  :-[
Suggested of 244, up from 240 (with Sunday's effort being 233). Happier with that too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 01 November, 2018, 08:53:52 pm
Quick question for those of you using turbos - do you use a trainer tyre or just your normal road tyre? If the latter, does it wear them prematurely or are they OK?

Just wondering as swapping cassette between wheels to ride outside seems a bit of a faff.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 November, 2018, 09:44:23 pm
I use the normal road tyre, but then it's not an expensive one (Continental sport). If my tyre was £££ I'd probably switch to a cheap one for turboing - it's definitely squared off a bit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 01 November, 2018, 10:13:59 pm
I have a road tyre on mine - but I'm not convinced it's a good solution; I think I may try a trainer tyre.

We do have some wheel slip from time to time - fboab notices it more than I do; I updated the firmware today, maybe that'll help.

Direct Drive is the way forward.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 02 November, 2018, 06:13:53 am
I previously used a couple of Conti Home Trainers.  I found they developed very small cracks over the surface, although it didn’t seem to effect performance.  I find the current turbo slips very slightly as you get up to speed but is then fine.

I have just switched to a Vitoria Zaffiro, but haven’t tested it yet.  It is very red, though, which is a bit of an assault on the senses.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 02 November, 2018, 03:40:43 pm
First ever Zwift race today. Well... I wasn't last at least.  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 November, 2018, 07:09:13 pm
Ebbets today - was surprisingly good. I think that sort of workout suits me.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/42669730-ebbetts

Tyre was spinning a little at the point where I'm going from 200 to 400W, but otherwise fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 02 November, 2018, 07:13:04 pm
New plan starts Monday.   Waiting to receive it over the weekend.

I’ll be 100% turbo for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 02 November, 2018, 07:46:40 pm
still living the life of excuses - two weeks ago came down with minor cold, last week slipped on wet leaves and bashed my knee..

one day!

(although still doing my longish weekly rides every weekend so not feeling too guilty)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 November, 2018, 01:04:55 pm
Dug out an old 90min workout.  I had the resistance a notch too high to start off with but settled in during the warm up.  The new race position is comfortable and I voluntarily added an extra 30 mins.   All seems OK which is a good job as I foresee a lot of hours on there for the next couple of months.

Bit galling that it’s sunny outside, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 November, 2018, 08:28:37 pm
i've lost my capacity for suffering for some reason, aborted the ramp test at 175bpm (should have reached 188). i'll be doing the workouts at a guessed ftp level and take it from there as cba to do the test once again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 November, 2018, 11:10:20 pm
i've lost my capacity for suffering for some reason, aborted the ramp test at 175bpm (should have reached 188). i'll be doing the workouts at a guessed ftp level and take it from there as cba to do the test once again.

Could be fatigue meaning you under-performed.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 November, 2018, 11:10:45 pm
Hunter - 4 today. Went well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 November, 2018, 11:31:28 pm
i've lost my capacity for suffering for some reason, aborted the ramp test at 175bpm (should have reached 188). i'll be doing the workouts at a guessed ftp level and take it from there as cba to do the test once again.

Could be fatigue meaning you under-performed.

that's a possibility as i've done a fairly easy 200k over the weekend. my legs weren't sore today, so i thought it's a good day for a test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Samuel D on 06 November, 2018, 08:16:10 am
How much does air temperature affect heart rate? I hit 208 BPM twice in the summer but haven’t come close since despite similar efforts on the road.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 06 November, 2018, 08:22:18 am
How much does air temperature affect heart rate? I hit 208 BPM twice in the summer but haven’t come close since despite similar efforts on the road.

Not particularly scientific, but lots.   Getting my HR up in a cold garage in Winter is really difficult.   In the Summer with the doors open and a fan on it's hard to keep a lid on it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 06 November, 2018, 08:26:18 am
How much does air temperature affect heart rate? I hit 208 BPM twice in the summer but haven’t come close since despite similar efforts on the road.

Not particularly scientific, but lots.   Getting my HR up in a cold garage in Winter is really difficult.   In the Summer with the doors open and a fan on it's hard to keep a lid on it.
Not only that, but once it's up, it doesn't come down again. One reason we aborted a 1000 in France a couple of years ago was because it was 38c and my HR would go up on the climbs, but not recover properly on the descents, so it was basically red lined all the time.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 06 November, 2018, 08:32:50 am
i can only train indoors (at a right intensity) during the cool season otherwise hr goes up too much. my ideal training temperature is around 18'c combined with a floor fan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 November, 2018, 09:00:02 am
I really struggle to get going if I'm too cold.  When it's warm I put the fan on at the start or after the warmup, but I suffered massively on the ramp test when I did that the other day, even with a load of clothing on! It was much better when I didn't turn the fan on at all! Likewise, since then I've done the warmup and the first interval block before turning the fan on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 November, 2018, 01:25:02 pm
I got the new Wahoo Kickr Headwind fan.

So now the fan runs slowly when I'm warming up, and when it gets tough, the fan automatically blasts me with air.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 November, 2018, 05:22:10 pm
That thing is seriously expensive though isn't it?
I have a dumb trainer - it's not going to do much with one of them. I should get a second fan, stick them both on low power and then use remove mains switches to turn them on and off. That would probably cost 50 quid (and mean that in the summer I can actually keep cool ish).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 06 November, 2018, 05:28:53 pm
That thing is seriously expensive though isn't it?

Quite! If you want to see just how far you can take this indoor cycling malarky though, check out Shane Miller - GPLama (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbcwZ8hm18GK6on_S_CgmFA) on You Tube.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 06 November, 2018, 05:49:05 pm
So, what trainers etc are people using.

I've got a Tacx Bushido and run TrainerRoad on my laptop. All can run without electricity in the shed, but I need the extension for the £30 4 speed fan.

I do fancy a direct drive trainer and tele though - only if the bonus permits...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 06 November, 2018, 06:09:45 pm
I'm still on an original version kickr - did ponder buying the latest version and selling this one as then I could use my through axle bike on it if I needed to (setting up ride position seems about the only main advantage there )
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 06 November, 2018, 06:39:58 pm
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 November, 2018, 07:48:41 pm
I've got a Tacx Booster. It's wheel on, but it deals with my through axle bike fine, and I don't see any need to change really. I run TR on my phone, using an elastic band to hold it to the stem/GPS mount.
I fancy getting some rollers and see if I can ride my fixie on them (and maybe my daughter too :) ).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 06 November, 2018, 07:57:55 pm
I've got a Tacx "Ironman" - actually a Genius with another name. I'm very likely to swap out soon for a Direct Drive if anyone wants to make an offer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 06 November, 2018, 09:35:18 pm
Having swapped from a vortex to a neo, I'd say direct drive is a must for me - I don't have boab's torque, but I still got occasional slippage. The main thing is the silence.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 November, 2018, 10:44:33 pm
That thing is seriously expensive though isn't it?
I have a dumb trainer - it's not going to do much with one of them. I should get a second fan, stick them both on low power and then use remove mains switches to turn them on and off. That would probably cost 50 quid (and mean that in the summer I can actually keep cool ish).

It doesn’t need a smart trainer. I connect my heart rate belt to it and fan speed is controlled from there.

Donated my old fan to the rowing club.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 November, 2018, 10:46:58 pm
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.

I tried out a Direto at an open evening at an LBS. It had a good feel, seemed to do the job.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 November, 2018, 10:47:49 pm
I had a v1 Kickr which I sold last year and bought a Neo as retail therapy when I had my wrist injury keeping me out of rowing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 06 November, 2018, 11:59:14 pm
I know some of the latest trainers are silent, but how much vibration do they transmit through the floor?

I live in a first floor flat and I'd love to be able to train indoors, I just don't want to annoy the downstairs neighbours. There's only so much that various bits of matting would help blot out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 07 November, 2018, 12:28:14 am
there is noise and vibration even with the quiet trainers (neo etc) and the neighbours will definitely hear that. will they get annoyed about some noise every now and then?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Peat on 07 November, 2018, 08:45:50 am
I had a quick go on a Tacx Neo and was suprised at how loud it was. Certainly much louder than my Elite elastogel thingy (non-smart). The loudest part of my setup is changing gear.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 November, 2018, 09:12:55 am
With the fan on facing up at me but on the tribars I'm finding that my arms block the airflow to my face.   I'm now dripping sweat on the splint that's holding my wrist in place so it's going to end up minging.   Little things, but at least I can train.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 November, 2018, 09:22:39 am
I did a VO2 workout this morning.  Was pretty solid, though now (even 2 hours later) I'm aware I've been breathing hard and my ribcage is feeling it!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/42990974-huffaker

I much prefer Sweet Spot Base 2 - it's got loads more interesting workouts, and it has stuff that goes above FTP. I find Sweet Spot Base 1 so dull...

With the fan on facing up at me but on the tribars I'm finding that my arms block the airflow to my face.   I'm now dripping sweat on the splint that's holding my wrist in place so it's going to end up minging.   Little things, but at least I can train.
Maybe it's worth putting an arm warmer on that arm? It won't affect your training, but it might mop up some of the sweat and make the splint a little more pleasant.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 07 November, 2018, 09:41:48 am
there is noise and vibration even with the quiet trainers (neo etc) and the neighbours will definitely hear that. will they get annoyed about some noise every now and then?

I'd rather not pay £x00 on a trainer and then find out the vibration/noise is too much.

Our kitchen is above theirs and they claim not to hear our dishwasher or washing-machine. Might have to see if someone locally has one I can borrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: stevie63 on 07 November, 2018, 11:37:44 am
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
What about the outgoing Flux then? Available for £450 and all the issues they had with the early models seem to be long since resolved.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 07 November, 2018, 12:06:28 pm
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
What about the outgoing Flux then? Available for £450 and all the issues they had with the early models seem to be long since resolved.
I couldn't see anywhere that actually had stock?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 07 November, 2018, 12:37:38 pm
With the fan on facing up at me but on the tribars I'm finding that my arms block the airflow to my face.   I'm now dripping sweat on the splint that's holding my wrist in place so it's going to end up minging.   Little things, but at least I can train.

when i was training with a cast on my wrist/hand I would pour water on the shoulder and allow it to run off at the elbow to reduce "sweat contamination", plus have the fan on that side.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 07 November, 2018, 12:43:37 pm
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.

I tried out a Direto at an open evening at an LBS. It had a good feel, seemed to do the job.

I have had a Direto for a year now, very pleased with it. According to DC Rainmaker though, the new Wahoo Kickr Core is well worth a look, cheap(ish) and silent...https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/11/trainer-buyers-recommendations-guide.html (https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/11/trainer-buyers-recommendations-guide.html)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: stevie63 on 08 November, 2018, 12:37:17 am
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
What about the outgoing Flux then? Available for £450 and all the issues they had with the early models seem to be long since resolved.
I couldn't see anywhere that actually had stock?
I’ve just checked and Halfords have stock
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/trainers/tacx-flux-smart-trainer (https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/trainers/tacx-flux-smart-trainer)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 08 November, 2018, 10:59:33 am
I get loads of wheel spin on Mr Smith's Vortex- I can't do anything standing on it and find the lag on intervals really annoying. I'm going to treat myself to a direct drive, but am dithering as to which. The new Flux S and Flux 2 are out in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure if I want to beta test them. It's looking like the Direto will 'win'.
What about the outgoing Flux then? Available for £450 and all the issues they had with the early models seem to be long since resolved.
I couldn't see anywhere that actually had stock?
I’ve just checked and Halfords have stock
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/trainers/tacx-flux-smart-trainer (https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/trainers/tacx-flux-smart-trainer)

Halfords' idea of 'in stock' doesn't always correlate with mine- in that it can be imaginary. I don't trust this, given that no other UK retailer has any.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 November, 2018, 02:04:50 pm
I love it when I have a day off and can ride at a sane time of the day. :)
Happy with this one - while it gives me >19 minutes at threshold and the rest of the half hours worth of intervals at sweet spot, it was right at the top end of sweet spot for the most part.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43172992-donner
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 November, 2018, 05:42:43 pm
Finally back on the straight and narrow - I completed 3 rides this week properly for the first time in ages. 45 minute of Tempo/SweetSpot/Threshold
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43315939-clark

I still don't like sweet spot.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 11 November, 2018, 07:34:36 pm
1st week done. No road work but just under 10hrs on the turbo.

I can work properly with my problem wrist resting on the extension.   I do have a bit of a worry that the lack of road miles might cause me an issue in the Spring so I will need to revisit my goals in the New Year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 11 November, 2018, 07:40:41 pm
after spending hour and a half in tt position and looking up at the screen i've noticed four deep horizontal wrinkles on my forehead - looked instantly ten years older! :D if i keep doing those they'll become permanent. hmm.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 11 November, 2018, 07:47:49 pm
after spending hour and a half in tt position and looking up at the screen i've noticed four deep horizontal wrinkles on my forehead - looked instantly ten years older! :D if i keep doing those they'll become permanent. hmm.

Put the screen on the floor...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 12 November, 2018, 12:54:31 pm
I had a quick go on a Tacx Neo and was suprised at how loud it was. Certainly much louder than my Elite elastogel thingy (non-smart). The loudest part of my setup is changing gear.

Maybe a dodgy one? The FB neo forum is full of people with problems. Mine has done 18,000km on Zwift, and other than being a bit grimy, it's perfect. The only noise is from changing gears, and I don't get vibration through the floor.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 12 November, 2018, 04:24:06 pm
I had a quick go on a Tacx Neo and was suprised at how loud it was. Certainly much louder than my Elite elastogel thingy (non-smart). The loudest part of my setup is changing gear.

Maybe a dodgy one? The FB neo forum is full of people with problems. Mine has done 18,000km on Zwift, and other than being a bit grimy, it's perfect. The only noise is from changing gears, and I don't get vibration through the floor.

Ditto. I can hear television at the same volume as when not pedalling.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 12 November, 2018, 04:37:16 pm
I had a quick go on a Tacx Neo and was suprised at how loud it was. Certainly much louder than my Elite elastogel thingy (non-smart). The loudest part of my setup is changing gear.

Maybe a dodgy one? The FB neo forum is full of people with problems. Mine has done 18,000km on Zwift, and other than being a bit grimy, it's perfect. The only noise is from changing gears, and I don't get vibration through the floor.

Ditto. I can hear television at the same volume as when not pedalling.

Mine's quiet too but that might be because I never use the poor thing. I'm in a second floor flat (converted house, wooden floors, so not exactly soundproof) and it's certainly quieter than the washing machine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 November, 2018, 09:02:17 am
Early morning VO2 went surprisingly well. I had to skip some of the rest periods because I was getting cold (and also because I was running out of time). I still completed the work intervals though. :)
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43431993-mills
Legs are sore now though!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 13 November, 2018, 10:51:50 pm
So, following my layoff xeplained elsewhere, I've done two rides on the turbo.

Sat evening I did half an hour at an average of 207 watts and tonight just over an hour at 200 watts. Both riding the singlespeed on my Tacx Bushido Smart and using the Tacx software and the flat free ride. The climb at the end was hard - I was reduced to 38rpm and still maing 220 odd watts, but it was hard to stop the wheel slipping. The ride is here

https://www.strava.com/activities/1963174504 (https://www.strava.com/activities/1963174504)

Once I've got myself back to a regular habit, I think I'll mix and match TR and the Tacx videos. I'm also planning on swapping the Bushido for a direct drive trainer in a few weeks (if anyone wants a Bushido?)

It's nice to be riding again and, given how much harder I can work on the turbo, it may get a fair bit of use as I try to build fitness and power again. Riding outside I just don't sustain the same sort of heart rate I get running.The turbo is a bit closer.

FWIW, I haven't done an FTP test, but Garmin currently estimates that at between 230 and 240 watts and my VO2 max at 45 (down by over 10% in 3 months). It'll be interesting to see if I can improve the numbers by the spring.

Mike

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 13 November, 2018, 11:18:07 pm
Actually, the Bushido may be available sooner if Tacx do what they've promised on shipping
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 November, 2018, 01:32:29 pm
Actually, the Bushido may be available sooner if Tacx do what they've promised on shipping
I PMed you about this.

Your numbers sound good for someone who's had such a rough year and has a bad knee.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 November, 2018, 09:57:37 am
Woke up with my legs (primarily my quads) still feeling a bit sore from Tuesday, but wanted to keep the consistency so did the workout anyway.  I skipped part of the last interval as my right knee started hurting - I think it was probably just tiredness meaning my VMO wasn't firing as well. Massively tight hamstrings now though.
I've done Weds-Fri-Sun 3 weeks in a row and now I'm back on Tues-Thurs-Sat. If I can keep this up for 2 more weeks then I can start December with a rest week and hopefully see another FTP rise before I start doing some of the build plans.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 15 November, 2018, 03:16:55 pm
Slowly dragging myself back up to 50CTL - at 45.7 today. I'm managing to average ~380TSS a week, on roughly 5 1/2 hours a week of exercise, split pretty equally between short, horrible stuff on Zwift, and a mix of short, horrible runs, and 1 lovely longer run. Did a hilly trail run of 16.4km at 5:32 pace this morning, not thinking about speed, and found the last time I ran it 6 weeks ago, I was at 5.45 pace, so it seems to be working. Weight is down to 74.2 (bmi 20.8 ). Taking my best 20m from the last 5 weeks (235w - not done an FTP test), I'm at 3.01 w/kg. Feels like I'm making progress, despite work being horrific.

I got a place on the Gindleford Gallop (infamously muddy 33km trail run) last night. Means I need to up my time running on trails ready for March.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 November, 2018, 03:25:43 pm
I'm on 50 CTL now.

I've got quite a variety in there at present with the rowing and associated weight training. So my FTP is lower than one would expect from such a CTL value.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 November, 2018, 12:14:17 pm
I did Saturday's workout today, and felt good while doing it, but cut the last set short because of my right VMO (same as Thursday).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43788947-palisade

I think I need to stretch more, but maybe also do some single leg squats. My right leg is definitely weaker than my left (lots of knee issues in the past), and damaging my right foot this summer has only worsened that. The thing is that my left is solid, and the CV ability is coming back, so that encourages me to push further and harder than my right can really handle. I should probably record the ride on my headunit as well - then I would be able to look at the right/left balance (though I'm not sure what I would do with that data!).

How do you guys find your fitness tracks with your CTL? I'm only doing the low volume TR stuff, so my weekly TSS peaks around 300, and I've not been over 350 since I got my power meter. The max 6 week CTL I've had in that time has been 37. Is that going to put a ceiling on my power?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 18 November, 2018, 08:17:43 pm
Fingers crossed, in a week's time I recommence TR sweet spot base, beginning a 7 month programme I've mapped out to prepare me for a Channel to Med ride across France next summer...

"Fingers crossed" because I've been struggling to return to exercise following some surgery last summer: several prior attempts at steadily increasing the exercise load have had to be abandoned due to it eventually not feeling very good at all. This time I've taken it super steady, a very slow trajectory for raising workload, and I'm optimistic I'm "mended" and will be fine to proceed. Should find out soon!

I posted earlier in the year about seeing if I could get to 4w/kg - the idea was to buy myself a really fancy bike if I managed to hit the target. I've still got the aspiration but have changed the reward, giving myself some nice bike trips instead, with the C2M being taken as an advance payment  ;)

The notional "goal" then is to reach 4w/kg by September '19. The last test I did was mid-July at 3.4 w/kg. Based on how I was riding then I was probably around the fittest I've been, so bridging the gap to 4.0, if I manage it, will not be easy and I won't really be disappointed if I don't manage it. It's quite possible life (particularly health) may get in the way, but I'll give it a whirl and see what happens.

I hadn't expected to be much interested in TR's calendar, but already I'm finding it invaluable. A plan's in place, and all I have to do is keep pressing really hard on the pedals when I'm told to and to rest when I'm told to. Easy  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 19 November, 2018, 08:00:40 pm
Entering week 3.  Week 1 was 9h45 and week 2 10hrs.   All turbo and in race position.

I’m missing the outdoors quite a lot.   The morning walk to the station doesn’t quite cut it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 19 November, 2018, 08:52:01 pm
Entering week 3.  Week 1 was 9h45 and week 2 10hrs.   All turbo and in race position.

I’m missing the outdoors quite a lot.   The morning walk to the station doesn’t quite cut it.

why not ride outside to clear the head (once a week would do)?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 19 November, 2018, 08:53:28 pm
Entering week 3.  Week 1 was 9h45 and week 2 10hrs.   All turbo and in race position.

I’m missing the outdoors quite a lot.   The morning walk to the station doesn’t quite cut it.

why not ride outside to clear the head (once a week would do)?

Broken hand.  I have a cast on.  (Sorry might not have mentioned it in this thread)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 19 November, 2018, 09:23:36 pm
i see, not much you can do then.. gws rob
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 November, 2018, 08:19:20 pm
Oof. VO2 max, followed by 6 hours of sitting in cramped seats (coach and performance) with 7000 steps thrown in between. My knee has been happier.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43907908-spencer
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 20 November, 2018, 10:29:09 pm
Had a few indoor rides over the last week and a half - just been riding the Tacx videos. I'll have to get to TR again soon, as it does feel like I'm getting used to riding indoors a bit now.

Set up the new direct drive turbo tonight, so have working tech in the shed and, I must admit, it was a nicer feeling to ride the turbo than head out into the cold wet evening here!

Also, I'd forgotten how much work you can do on the turbo, as there's no reason to stop pedalling...

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 November, 2018, 12:05:19 am
Did 75m endurance in TrainerRoad tonight. These endurance level rides are harder than you might think - that constant pressure on the pedals you get from working on a smart trainer makes it more effective than a typical outdoor ride.

Heart rate was a bit high - expect that was because I was watching Scotland v Israel. Missed James Forrest's hat-trick because I ended the workout and moved to the living room at just the wrong time.

This week is about recovery - going to do only endurance level stuff this week, and then back on it next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Peat on 22 November, 2018, 10:31:13 am
Did this GCN workout the other night: https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/video/sweet-spot-intervals-indoor-training-on-the-passo-giau

Really effective! The same interval 8 times, feels easy to start with but by rep 7 you're in trouble.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 22 November, 2018, 10:45:45 am
https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/zwift-academy-2018/semi-finals-2-capacity-into-sweet-spot/

Did this on Zwift night before last. What the graphic doesn't show is that it's not ramp ups after the Z5 effort - it's one ramp up 2x Z5 followed by ramp down. And they save the worst for last. Felt easy to begin with - was so glad I didn't set it to 105% of my FTP in the companion app by the end.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 22 November, 2018, 12:21:09 pm
Recently been doing the "hour of power" interval session I picked up on BikeRadar many years ago, which I've developed into:

5 min warmup
90s @ 90%FTP followed by 30s @ 120%FTP  x 30  (60mins)
5 mins cooldown

It can be tweaked by increasing the hard intervals to 125-30%FTP and lowering the recovery intensity, or increasing the hard intervals to 20s @ 130%FTP-maximal and increasing the length of the recovery intervals to 120-150s.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 November, 2018, 01:01:31 pm
Recently been doing the "hour of power" interval session I picked up on BikeRadar many years ago, which I've developed into:

5 min warmup
90s @ 90%FTP followed by 30s @ 120%FTP  x 30  (60mins)
5 mins cooldown

It can be tweaked by increasing the hard intervals to 125-30%FTP and lowering the recovery intensity, or increasing the hard intervals to 20s @ 130%FTP-maximal and increasing the length of the recovery intervals to 120-150s.
Wow.  You do an hour where you do 90s at 90% power, then 30s at 120%, and then repeat? No gaps where you are under 90%? There are a couple of TR workouts that have threshold and VO2 Max stuff mixed up like that, but they tend ot have significant rest periods built in.  Can you really sustain that for an hour (and if so, are you sure your FTP is accurate)?

Eg from my recent TR back catalogue: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson
 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 22 November, 2018, 01:18:24 pm
Wow.  You do an hour where you do 90s at 90% power, then 30s at 120%, and then repeat? No gaps where you are under 90%? There are a couple of TR workouts that have threshold and VO2 Max stuff mixed up like that, but they tend ot have significant rest periods built in.  Can you really sustain that for an hour (and if so, are you sure your FTP is accurate)?

Eg from my recent TR back catalogue: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson

As the hour progresses it's increasingly hard to maintain 90% in the 90s intervals but that's the aim.  In reality it eventually drops to 80/85% for a few seconds after the 30s bursts and it takes real effort and concentration to get back to 90%.

The whole 60m session average is effectively at threshold effort and very close to FTP. 

I'm as sure as I can be about my FTP using the tools at my disposal i.e. Watt-type bike at the gym - I have the IQ2 power meters on order so will hopefully be able to get more accurate info. HR info is useless for this kind of session as the delay gives no helpful real-time info.

BTW can't access your TrainerRoad links.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 22 November, 2018, 01:33:05 pm
I may venture a tentative half hour on the turbo later. Starting week 3 of The Lurgy From Hell; I've coughed enough to damage my ribs, so anything I do will be Zone 0.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 November, 2018, 01:39:55 pm
Wow.  You do an hour where you do 90s at 90% power, then 30s at 120%, and then repeat? No gaps where you are under 90%? There are a couple of TR workouts that have threshold and VO2 Max stuff mixed up like that, but they tend ot have significant rest periods built in.  Can you really sustain that for an hour (and if so, are you sure your FTP is accurate)?

Eg from my recent TR back catalogue: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson

As the hour progresses it's increasingly hard to maintain 90% in the 90s intervals but that's the aim.  In reality it eventually drops to 80/85% for a few seconds after the 30s bursts and it takes real effort and concentration to get back to 90%.

The whole 60m session average is effectively at threshold effort and very close to FTP. 

I'm as sure as I can be about my FTP using the tools at my disposal i.e. Watt-type bike at the gym - I have the IQ2 power meters on order so will hopefully be able to get more accurate info. HR info is useless for this kind of session as the delay gives no helpful real-time info.

BTW can't access your TrainerRoad links.

That sounds really hard... Wattbike are reputed to be accurate, and if you're using the same one then it makes no odds. I was only asking because I've heard of people guestimating it!
Does this link work?
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson#.W_aoa9FhxuA.link
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 22 November, 2018, 02:04:20 pm

That sounds really hard... Wattbike are reputed to be accurate, and if you're using the same one then it makes no odds. I was only asking because I've heard of people guestimating it!
Does this link work?
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson#.W_aoa9FhxuA.link

It's wanting credit card details to sign up - can't see a free view-only option.

Yes, it's really hard session!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 November, 2018, 03:03:37 pm

That sounds really hard... Wattbike are reputed to be accurate, and if you're using the same one then it makes no odds. I was only asking because I've heard of people guestimating it!
Does this link work?
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/43591061-jepson#.W_aoa9FhxuA.link

It's wanting credit card details to sign up - can't see a free view-only option.

That's really annoying - I've clicked the button to make my workouts public. Maybe you need a TR account to see even public workouts?  That's odd.
It's synced to Strava, so you've got to be able to see this: https://www.strava.com/activities/1965509945
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 22 November, 2018, 04:17:25 pm
That's really annoying - I've clicked the button to make my workouts public. Maybe you need a TR account to see even public workouts?

Appears to be the case.

It's synced to Strava, so you've got to be able to see this: https://www.strava.com/activities/1965509945

Yes, that works if signed in to Strava. Maximum cadence 154 - blimey!  I do well to get above 120.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 22 November, 2018, 05:51:28 pm
Yes, that works if signed in to Strava. Maximum cadence 154 - blimey!  I do well to get above 120.

 :o

My turbo's on a mat, but I'm pretty sure I'd be bouncing around the room like a badly loaded washing-machine if I tried that!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 November, 2018, 08:48:05 pm
For really short VO2 Max or anerobic, I just spin up in the gear I'm in. I couldn't hold it for very long (unless on a big hill on my fix!).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 November, 2018, 09:09:05 pm
I had a look back and I hit 138rpm on that workout earlier this year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 24 November, 2018, 11:34:41 pm
I did Tacx’s Wessex Tour today, a nice hilly video ride around Dorset. It proved both interesting and positive from an equipment perspective. The ride itself was just under 1.25 hours averaging about 200 watts, but with more variation - like the real world - than the super flat ride I’d been doing.

Having committed to riding the turbo much much more and using it to actually build fitness I’ve just swapped the Bushido for a new Neo direct from Tacx. This is, so far, a bit quieter than the Bushido, will work with or without being plugged in and provides better roadlike feel. The latter due to the simulated inertia that it models based on mass, aero drag and other rolling resistance.

I was a bit concerned my old laptop might struggle with the video software (trainerroad does seem that resource intensive) but it copes absolutely fine. The laptop was species for use with Lightroom a few years ago with an i7 3740qm at 2.7GHz, 3 SSDs, 32Gb of ram and an Nvidia K2000m GPU. The CPU usage was low throughout and the GPU was at 80% to 85% decoding variable frame rate 720p and upscaling to feed a tv at 4K and 60Hz. I had thought the hardware would be too old, and particularly in a laptop clock limited. However it all worked well.

Next to decide if I want to use trainerroad for intervals or the Tacx software.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 25 November, 2018, 07:25:32 am
I have not used the Tacx software for a number of years but it was generally incredibly flaky. The forums were full of complaints about it not working.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 25 November, 2018, 11:39:16 am
I have not used the Tacx software for a number of years but it was generally incredibly flaky. The forums were full of complaints about it not working.

I think they’ve made a real effort with the new desktop application. Runs fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 28 November, 2018, 09:04:13 pm
Cheeky little ramp test to further suppress my ftp estimate followed by an hour at endurance pace on a flat Tacx video course around Amsterdam.

It has to be said that having had this year basically off the bike and not even running for 3 months has left me with a lot to do.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 29 November, 2018, 11:37:30 pm
Tonight I visited Italy, virtually. Madonna del Ghisallo courtesy of Tacx.

16 miles, 2,700ft or climb almost all in the last 6 miles. New ftp estimate based on best 20 minutes output on the climb. Only 17 watts better than last night but every watt counts:) 128tss in 70 minutes😮

Day off tomorrow
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 30 November, 2018, 08:27:34 am
Tonight I visited Italy, virtually. Madonna del Ghisallo courtesy of Tacx.

16 miles, 2,700ft or climb almost all in the last 6 miles. New ftp estimate based on best 20 minutes output on the climb. Only 17 watts better than last night but every watt counts:) 128tss in 70 minutes😮

Day off tomorrow

128TSS in 70' would imply your FTP estimate is too low.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 30 November, 2018, 09:05:36 am
Tonight I visited Italy, virtually. Madonna del Ghisallo courtesy of Tacx.

16 miles, 2,700ft or climb almost all in the last 6 miles. New ftp estimate based on best 20 minutes output on the climb. Only 17 watts better than last night but every watt counts:) 128tss in 70 minutes😮

Day off tomorrow

128TSS in 70' would imply your FTP estimate is too low.

Yes, actually checking back it was 75, but that included some cool down and warm up. It’s not clear whether the gas score is based on the old or new ftp estimate, but Garmin suggests the new estimate has been used. Still I’m happy to have low rather than high estimate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 30 November, 2018, 11:05:08 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 30 November, 2018, 11:38:28 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 30 November, 2018, 11:45:01 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!

Huh! I wish  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 December, 2018, 02:52:18 pm
Entering week 3.  Week 1 was 9h45 and week 2 10hrs.   All turbo and in race position.

I’m missing the outdoors quite a lot.   The morning walk to the station doesn’t quite cut it.

Nearly finished week 4.   Weeks 5 and 6 will be similar.   There’s a chance I’ll be back on the road just before Christmas.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 December, 2018, 01:29:03 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!

Huh! I wish  :facepalm:

Is this a real drop in FTW, or a difference between trainers? I reckon my KickR over-read by about 15-20W, sadly.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 02 December, 2018, 03:57:37 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!

Huh! I wish  :facepalm:

Is this a real drop in FTW, or a difference between trainers? I reckon my KickR over-read by about 15-20W, sadly.
I doubt it's real - you can't really compare figures between wheel on and wheel off trainers, so I suspect the old trainer was over stating it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 02 December, 2018, 05:23:23 pm
New trainers in the Pain Cave.

Fboab's didn't want to play at first; there's more work to do there. I've had a lot more success with mine, but its not fully proven yet. First test made my FTP 40w lower. Git!

It must be lying!

Huh! I wish  :facepalm:

Is this a real drop in FTW, or a difference between trainers? I reckon my KickR over-read by about 15-20W, sadly.
I doubt it's real - you can't really compare figures between wheel on and wheel off trainers, so I suspect the old trainer was over stating it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Yes, every meter measures differently. Last night my Garmin watch connected to the stages power meter and the laptop to the Neo. Average power on the laptop 207 watts vs 210 on Garmin. Not very different, and you could say that 3 watts would be drivetrain loss, but I bet a different stages unit would give a different answer...

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 December, 2018, 10:18:00 am
Most power meter companies only state a 1-2% accuracy.  Same with trainers (even direct drive ones). So a few W here or there is within the error bar for the trainer or the power meter or both.
When I went from "Virtual Power" (calculated from a speed/resistance graph) to measured power from my pedals, I jumped about 15W (in the good direction!). I reckon about half of it is drivetrain, and half just the inaccuracies in "Virtual Power". I saw somewhere a post about "Zwift doping", how you do the rolldown test with your tyre really flat, and then pump it up before you ride, so you show more power in the race than you are putting out! That seems just sneaky!

I rode yesterday for the first time in almost 2 weeks due to a rotten cold.  Mary Austin was not the ride to choose! Strava seems to do some sort of interpolation as well - I skipped a bit of the ride (as you can see from the picture) and Strava has just joined the dots.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1996349626
Still, hopefully I can get going again properly tomorrow - I'll probably turn it down a few percent to give myself a chance of completing it as I recover from the lurgy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 03 December, 2018, 10:32:15 am
It's taken me the best part of a month to get back into it after a cold/cough/post-viral state.

I'm having much more fun with Zwift this time around. Better PC, better trainer, slightly different goals - just seems to work better for me this time. I'm really quite enjoying the PACK social rides.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 December, 2018, 01:02:04 pm
I've been struggling to get cycling workouts in with the rowing training taking a lot of time and energy. Deadlifts on Thursday with my PT - my hamstrings are still sore today.

However with no rowing training on Saturday as I was coxing, I had a go at Hunter - 2 and it went ok. Had to extend a couple of the breaks in the final interval a bit to keep it going but survived all the intervals intact.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/44804431-hunter-2

Ramp test penciled in for tomorrow to see how I'm doing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 December, 2018, 01:08:43 pm
I would hate that workout.  Two hours on a trainer, with over 1 hour spent in the sweetspot/tempo zone? Ouch.
Good luck with the ramp test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 03 December, 2018, 08:38:18 pm
I did a couple of trainer rides at the weekend:

Saturday I rode stage 1 of the Eroixa videos from Tacx, just over an hour with several punchy climbs.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1995026246 (https://www.strava.com/activities/1995026246)

Then the first part of a Tacx vo2 workout, cut short as it was turned 9 and the family needed to eat:)

https://www.strava.com/activities/1997282281 (https://www.strava.com/activities/1997282281)


I’m really enjoying the Tacx software - much more my thing than Zwift - and the collection of video rides and workouts seems sufficient to replace TR as well as provide nice sunny scenery on a winter’s evening.

More later

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 03 December, 2018, 10:28:46 pm
Mike you might like some of the videos on Bigringvr. Still on free beta but an impressive range of climbs and rides. I did  an hour on the lower slopes of mont. entourage tonight and had a great time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 03 December, 2018, 11:09:48 pm
Mike you might like some of the videos on Bigringvr. Still on free beta but an impressive range of climbs and rides. I did  an hour on the lower slopes of mont. entourage tonight and had a great time.

Hi Chris

Hope you’re well?

I’d forgotten BRVRtm - looks like it’s now off beta and they’re charging. Not excessive, but another package!

I might have a go with the trial though, just to see how they compare. One positive with Tacx is the availability of workouts too, although I think it includes theirs and everyone on the system whose made their own up too.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 04 December, 2018, 07:32:26 am
Mike
I am well thank you.  I must still be in their beta group as I am not paying yet!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 December, 2018, 09:16:19 am
I got up early to do my ride, and then TR wouldn't pair with my pedals. It (eventually) paired with my new Tickr heart rate strap, but point blank refused to see the pedals.
The strange bit is that the phone could find the pedals (available on the bluetooth pairing screen), so I don't know what's going on there. I'm gonna try again tomorrow, but not connect the HR strap until the pedals are paired.
The help link in the TR app said that sometimes bluetooth can only pair to one device at a time, but I had 3 going for much of the summer (pedals, speed sensor, HR strap), so I'm not sure I believe that.  I'll be really irritated if it's a new restriction. Will have to see how it works tomorrow...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 December, 2018, 09:55:21 pm
+3W to 236W.

Increases are slow at present.

However I have a new all-time max HR of 196 and a new all-time 1-minute peak of 195 HR.

220 - age, my arse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 04 December, 2018, 11:54:14 pm
+3W to 236W.

Increases are slow at present.

However I have a new all-time max HR of 196 and a new all-time 1-minute peak of 195 HR.

220 - age, my arse.

Been a long time since we’ve saw 190+, or even 180. +!

Hey ho, keep up the good work
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 December, 2018, 08:58:07 am
220 - age, my arse.

Exactly.   I managed 205 on a ramp test when I was *cough* a little over 40.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Scrantaj on 05 December, 2018, 09:02:39 am
Apologies if this isnt the place to ask.

Getting back into training mode after damaging myself on the National 24 in July.  Currently have a Tacx Vortex Smart that I've been using for a couple of years and it's been fine but starting to show it's age and am aiming to upgrade to a direct drive trainer.

Looking at either a Tacx Neo (not the Neo 2)  or a Kickr Core to replace it.  Will be using it with Zwift on an Apple TV.  Anybody got any experiances with these two, good or bad?  One concern I have is that from what l've read the Core only will only allow two out of three of Power, Cadence and HR over Bluetooth as it transmits power and cadence on seperate channels wherea Tacx trainers combine them into one.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 December, 2018, 11:00:27 am
Neo has some features that the KickRs don't have, such as the ability to simulate downhills and road surface roughness for Zwift.

I felt my original Kickr over-read somewhat. The need to calibrate regularly was a pain. Neo is supposed to require no calibration. There is no way to do so.

KickR is better at fitting a variety of bikes.

On the feel side, the KickRs all have a large flywheel for inertia - Neo has little flywheel mass and simulates inertia electronically. For me, that doesn't quite work as well - but on intervals with large drops in cadence from a hard interval to a recovery, the Neo will get back on target quicker.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 05 December, 2018, 12:53:10 pm
...For me, that doesn't quite work as well - but on intervals with large drops in cadence from a hard interval to a recovery, the Neo will get back on target quicker.

This is an important point. We both bought Elite Drivos recently (half price in Black Friday deals) and this trainer also has a lot of inertial "feel" built in - to the point in fact that it doesn't "do" Erg mode how most of us have come to accept it. Turns out the forums are full of people complaining about this - they're used to that gym-bike feel where it instantly locks you to the target power. Trainers with big flywheels, and inertial "road-feel" don't work like that, and getting to and then sticking to an Erg-commanded power is not an instant thing; this is especially obvious with the Drivo, and one of us almost sent theirs back because of it (no names, no pack-drill).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: jiberjaber on 05 December, 2018, 02:09:26 pm
After planning out a few months of structured training I fell off the wagon 2 months ago - been just riding what I fancied since then with a few weekends on consecutive 200km/100mile rides.  Just managed to get the will power together for a ramp test and happy to see a 2% improvement though still not got the motivation to regularly get back on the hamster wheel!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 05 December, 2018, 02:34:25 pm
...For me, that doesn't quite work as well - but on intervals with large drops in cadence from a hard interval to a recovery, the Neo will get back on target quicker.

This is an important point. We both bought Elite Drivos recently (half price in Black Friday deals) and this trainer also has a lot of inertial "feel" built in - to the point in fact that it doesn't "do" Erg mode how most of us have come to accept it. Turns out the forums are full of people complaining about this - they're used to that gym-bike feel where it instantly locks you to the target power. Trainers with big flywheels, and inertial "road-feel" don't work like that, and getting to and then sticking to an Erg-commanded power is not an instant thing; this is especially obvious with the Drivo, and one of us almost sent theirs back because of it (no names, no pack-drill).

The Neo’s Simulation of inertia has real potential benefits in that it can better simulate climbing and flat road riding in terms of pedal force throughout the cycle. The triathlon or time trial long forum has quite a lot on this. That was what led me to pick one over the Kickr, along with more accurate (lower!) power measurement.

In use I’ve so far found it excellent, but I haven’t ridden a Kickr and have had it long enough to really review yet. It’s probably a question of simulated inertia via a physics model vs a very big flywheel. FWIW, i think the VeloReality lynx adopts a similar approach to the Neo with a different form factor and price. The Neo 1 looks like a good deal at present.

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 December, 2018, 09:13:02 am
I struggled to get up this morning, so I only rode a 45 minute version of the planned workout.  Still coming back from my cold.
I paired my pedals to the phone before I connected the HRM straps up - this seems to have been effective. :)
https://www.strava.com/activities/2002691660

I've got 1 week of work scheduled before my recovery week.  Given I've basically had 10 days off, I'm gonna switch some of the workouts about so I get most of a recovery week, but I also get to ride hard a bit longer. sustained power build to start on 1 January - that's going to be brutal!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Scrantaj on 06 December, 2018, 10:57:25 pm
Cheers guys, looks like it will be the Neo. Which is what I was leaning towards to begin with.  Now to wait for the new year sales.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 06 December, 2018, 11:28:42 pm
Neo1 is discontinued so you should be able to pick one up for less than 900 based on recent pricing, then they’ll be gone. Neo2 is on preorder in UK, but Tacx will send you one for the same (full) price with no postage charge from the Netherlands

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 06 December, 2018, 11:31:25 pm
Neo1 is discontinued so you should be able to pick one up for less than 900 based on recent pricing, then they’ll be gone. Neo2 is on preorder in UK, but Tacx will send you one for the same (full) price with no postage charge from the Netherlands

Mike

I tell a lie - looks like the Neo2 is now available from UK suppliers, but the 1 has gone up to 899.99.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 08 December, 2018, 09:12:10 pm
Back on the turbo tonight, after a food and booze heavy week at work. 3 days in London and one in Sheffield, late, meant no bike since last Sunday. Meals with clients meant I put in weight...

Hey hi, did a nice flat Tacx ride tonight - The Ljizer Front in Belgium. 50kms, a smidge under 1hr 30mins and 205 watts average. I think I’m happy with that in the circumstances.

https://www.strava.com/activities/2007026506 (https://www.strava.com/activities/2007026506)

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 December, 2018, 05:33:51 pm
Geiger + 2 today.

Breathing was fairly controlled until the final 30s of the final interval where I finally started to get out of breath.

Probably about the limit of what I can complete right now.

Couple of Bluetooth drop-outs during the workout as well - an annoyance but turning bluetooth off and on again on the iPad fixed it.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 December, 2018, 09:41:02 am
Sunday I didn't do my TR ride because I was hungover (from the cycling club christmas party!). It was a real struggle to get out of bed for TR today. I ended up doing a 45 minute Spencer because I got up, went back to bed, then gave myself a talking to and got up again!
Early morning VO2 workouts without fuel are hard, and I felt somewhat queasy for about 15 minutes after I had stopped.  Must get more organised with banana shopping! Also, my foot hurts afterwards still...
https://www.strava.com/activities/2011196496

The next couple of weeks are going to be randomised somewhat. I can already tell that the 1 January ramp test is going to be disappointing. :( Still, nothing planned to interrupt proper  training from then on...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 11 December, 2018, 12:46:00 pm
Another ride outside today. Didn't work too hard, but just nice to get a few miles in.

Probably back indoors tomorrow, but needs to be fairly easy, and then weekend away to Tan Hill all being well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 December, 2018, 12:01:07 am
Sunday I didn't do my TR ride because I was hungover (from the cycling club christmas party!). It was a real struggle to get out of bed for TR today. I ended up doing a 45 minute Spencer because I got up, went back to bed, then gave myself a talking to and got up again!
Early morning VO2 workouts without fuel are hard, and I felt somewhat queasy for about 15 minutes after I had stopped.  Must get more organised with banana shopping! Also, my foot hurts afterwards still...
https://www.strava.com/activities/2011196496

The next couple of weeks are going to be randomised somewhat. I can already tell that the 1 January ramp test is going to be disappointing. :( Still, nothing planned to interrupt proper  training from then on...

Good work on getting up and doing something.

The SSB mid volume II plan has been updated with the Tuesday VO2max workouts changed - more, shorter intervals.

Tonight was the first one, https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/45489109-gendarme-3

I've done Gendarme before - I thought it was a bit too easy. The 30:30 protocol comes from running and I expect it's a tough one in that context but too easy for cycling. The +3 variant is not; it's 30:20 and I suspect higher intensity also. The workout text suggested towards the end of the first block of 25 repeats to skip the odd one if fading. I managed to hold on. In the second block I was starting to fade and HR was in the 180s and not dropping during the recoveries. It suggested earlier in the second block trying for doing at least 5 in a row before skipping one, but if that's too daunting at least stringing 2-3 together before a break. I managed 8 before a break, skipped one, then 6, and then the final 9. Not too bad. Definitely a tough one and I'll feel very ordinary tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 12 December, 2018, 08:08:34 pm
Well, I'm getting into week 3 of some very easy base indoor riding, and I seem to be getting more power for my heart-rate buck, so I guess that's a good sign. More of the same until January - I do one harder ride a week - basically trying to keep up with the 2.2W/Kg PACK riders on Zwift; I managed half way round this week, before I fell off the back.

It's the indoor equivalent of Sunday club rides where you hang on to the wheels of fast boys and girls - until you can't.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 16 December, 2018, 07:25:35 pm
First 6 week block of training finished.   Started out 9h45 in week 1 and built to 11hrs this week.  100% turbo necessitated by my hand injury.   I feel pretty good despite a slight cold.

The cast comes off tomorrow so I can see what I’m able to do and what the physio plan is.   I’d love to be able to ride to work.   Getting the train is annoying and costs 50 quid a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 16 December, 2018, 08:26:30 pm
Today was a rest day so a gentle ride outside for only the second time this month. I have 2 outside training rides on my weekly programme but if it's wet and/or cold (which has been most days this month) I do an extended turbo session. It took me a year to get back to where I was before my big crash last October but now I am on the up and should be able to PB every distance from 10 miles to 12 hours. I'd like to target the LVRC pursuit champs too but I'll need to convince Mrs PC that that's a safe option.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 December, 2018, 09:55:58 pm
Yesterday I did a bit of rowing (not much - it was too cold) and a 1h TrainerRoad workout later.

Today I did the full 2h planned workout, Hunter, which is 3x20m sweet-spot. It was hard, but not impossible by any means. Feels like I'm making progress.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/45804470-hunter
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 December, 2018, 06:47:07 pm
First 6 week block of training finished.   Started out 9h45 in week 1 and built to 11hrs this week.  100% turbo necessitated by my hand injury.   I feel pretty good despite a slight cold.

The cast comes off tomorrow so I can see what I’m able to do and what the physio plan is.   I’d love to be able to ride to work.   Getting the train is annoying and costs 50 quid a week.

Turbo only for another 4 weeks.   At least I don’t have to wear the cast any more.

Long distance plans for late Spring are toast.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 17 December, 2018, 09:02:05 pm
We nearly managed to keep up with the 2W/Kg ride tonight, on Zwift. Fboab dropped her chain and fell out the back, and I got dropped with 2km to go.

New unlocks for me. New FTP for her.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 December, 2018, 09:27:46 pm
finished the tough workouts of the sweet spot base one (on trainerroad), now an easy week of recovery/spinning which i will do on the rollers. after that a week of festive500, then back to the sweet spot base two. i'm not expecting any ftp increase just yet, but i'm in a good place to start a new year of training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 December, 2018, 10:09:15 pm
Just did my first ever Trainerroad session this afternoon.  I thought it was quite good.  Much better than Zwift, which I used last year and didn't really like. 

Am planning to do a couple of sessions for fun / get the hang of it this week, then we are away for 10 days at Christmas, so will start in earnest in Jan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 17 December, 2018, 10:43:11 pm
... Zwift, which I used last year and didn't really like. 

Interesting. That was my initial experience too. I've given it another go, and I'm enjoying it much more. I think making it more immersive with a bigger screen has helped a lot - I was trying with a laptop previously.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 December, 2018, 10:56:38 pm
Reading about some of the things that you have done sounded interesting - like hanging on with a w/kg group.  I didn't know about that. I was trying to use it to do workouts set by a coach and it just didn't quite work, the hills were in the wrong places, etc - although the coach is really into it.  The ramp test was good - going up Box Hill.

My setup was fairly basic: laptop + a 19" screen, and no high end graphics, but I'm not really into gaming, etc, I think I prefer to just watch the numbers.  Actually , that reminds me, another problem is that my eyesight wasn't quite good enough to see the Zwift screen properly without glasses!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 December, 2018, 09:15:28 am
I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 18 December, 2018, 07:10:39 pm
No better training platform than a smart trainer and Zwift ime. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 18 December, 2018, 09:03:32 pm
Training is currently suspended.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 December, 2018, 09:29:21 pm
I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 December, 2018, 09:42:41 pm
Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?

I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.
I'll check them out. I quite like Spencer - I think the VO2 max intervals suit me a little better than the under overs. The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?
I've just checked - week 5 of SSB2 now has Spencer+2. That's one extra 3 minute interval, but with an extra minute between each one of them.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 18 December, 2018, 10:42:38 pm
Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?

I'm curious about Zwift, but I'm training using my phone attached to the garmin mount via elastic bands - I don't think that's going to be very immersive! :)
Got my arse out of bed this morning and did the scheduled workout OK. Felt kinda queasy though.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/45873993-spencer

I don't know why there's such a long cooldown ramp.  Loads of TR workouts have intervals up to the end and a 2 minute cool down - this one has 15 minutes! I cut that bit short as I had to get going.

Have a look at the new version of the SSB low and mid volume plans. Spencer etc have been replaced by rides of similar TSS with shorter intervals.

I find them easier to complete.
I'll check them out. I quite like Spencer - I think the VO2 max intervals suit me a little better than the under overs. The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?
I've just checked - week 5 of SSB2 now has Spencer+2. That's one extra 3 minute interval, but with an extra minute between each one of them.


Work
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 19 December, 2018, 08:29:13 am
The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?

Every now and then you don't get a choice.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 19 December, 2018, 09:04:14 am
The long slow stuff I just can't abide on a trainer - how can anyone ride multiple hours at 60% FTP indoors?

Every now and then you don't get a choice.
I guess a broken wrist is exactly how you end up there. :( You have more mental fortitude than I do - I just can't hack it. I hate the likes of Baxter with a passion.

Training is currently suspended.
Hopefully this is for the holiday season, and not for a more painful reason?
Work
I guess that's a different sort of painful reason!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 22 December, 2018, 05:53:02 pm
I think I could do hours on Zwift- there's enough happening to keep from getting utterly soul destroyed.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 23 December, 2018, 05:52:22 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 23 December, 2018, 06:22:51 pm
I was going to remark - "190%?? That would KILL me" but then remembered that I finished a Zwift ride yesterday at 6w/Kg, which is probably about 3x my FTP. I probably didn't maintain it for 30s either.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 23 December, 2018, 06:24:45 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 December, 2018, 06:26:36 pm
Prater yesterday. https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46147587-prater

This is an over-under workout with the unders sometimes being only 1% below threshold and the overs bring up to 115% but only 30s.

It’s one that I’ve done several times now and I’ve often failed. Was ok yesterday - only break was due to dropping my glasses due to tying to wipe away sweat rather than needing a respite.

About to do a 2h sweet spot workout to round off the season. Back again on the 28th with winter season.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 23 December, 2018, 06:32:11 pm
...only break was due to dropping my glasses due to tying to wipe away sweat rather than needing a respite.

You spelled "tears" wrong  :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 23 December, 2018, 07:35:58 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 23 December, 2018, 09:21:52 pm
Mount Goode today - 3 15 minute threshold efforts in a 1hr 30 ride. I took a couple of breaks in the last interval as I was struggling and my knee was sore. Stretching after showed that my glutes were tight - that's probably a contributory factor.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/46178702-mount-goode
Next workout will be the other side of Christmas - hopefully I can re-organise the garage and get my fixie working with the smart trainer that has been sitting next to it. That will really test the knee!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 23 December, 2018, 10:51:36 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 24 December, 2018, 08:06:17 am
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 24 December, 2018, 03:49:09 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.

The above is a whole load of nothing.

Cite me the study that says you can/should train VO2 beyond 120% of threshold.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 24 December, 2018, 04:17:03 pm
Had a shot at a vo2 session today. Set 4 (5 x 30s at 190% ftp with 30 s recoveries) was too much!

Still, worked hard for a bit, so nice easy spin in the sun tomorrow I hope.

VO2 is typically 105-120% of threshold.

Oft quoted but a good research trawl would suggest 120% is needed for 4' minute intervals and greater values for shorter intervals.

Cite the study.

THE study? There is a lot out there for you to find, if you are likely to be able to understand them you will find them easy to find. If you can't find them you are unlikely to be able to interpret them and therefore will have to believe whatever you find on a blog or in a book. Sports Science studies are very unlikely to give identical results because the subjects are different and you can't do perfect controlled experiments. Over the last year or so I have done a lot a reading of relevant papers, a meta-analysis of you like. When I qualified as a cycle coach back in the early 80s HRMs were just coming onto the scene, and it was only when I came back after a 20 year break that this new fangled idea of power meters meant I needed to do some swotting up. So I did a lot, but not only on cycling and power studies, a lot of work in the intervening years were done on running and rowing, e.g. work of Billat and Seller. Stephen Seller is very good and has worked with Nordic skiers a lot.

When I started using TrainerRoad two years ago most of the sessions I did were sessions I designed based on my "meta-analysis" using the excellent workout creator. The results were that I smashed all my PBs from 1989 last year. Next year will be faster as I now have time to train consistently all year round, yes there are papers that studied detraining effects out there too.

To put you on the right track I suggest you Google Seller first, his work references lots of others and you'll be able to find lectures he's done on YouTube too.

The above is a whole load of nothing.

Cite me the study that says you can/should train VO2 beyond 120% of threshold.


Back in the day, Peter Coe advocated 30 second hill reps as one tool in the VO2 armoire. Aim to hit over 95% of HRmax at the end of the rep and then jog back and recover to HR of 120. Repeat a bit. It adds more than VO2max to a middle distance runner of course (and isn’t a study, but he was an effective coach)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 24 December, 2018, 04:26:11 pm
I’m quite glad that my answer to questions like this is ‘I do what my coach tells me’.   There’s no need for anyone to justify what they do in training if it delivers results.

The proof of all this is what you deliver on the road.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 December, 2018, 12:58:04 am
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 25 December, 2018, 06:16:50 am
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 December, 2018, 08:54:24 pm
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
You probably can. Depends on how many of them you want to try, and how big the rest intervals are... Give it a go...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 December, 2018, 10:25:49 pm
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
You probably can. Depends on how many of them you want to try, and how big the rest intervals are... Give it a go...  :thumbsup:

Not repeatably.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/11051876-kaiser
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 27 December, 2018, 06:59:49 am

The above is a whole load of nothing.


 :-\. Hehe, the funniest thing I've read all morning. My work here is done!

Now I'll go back to "Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance:  the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training" Stephen Seiler and Espen Tønnessen 2009. Which btw is not the answer to your question but just happens to be a paper I am working through at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 27 December, 2018, 01:33:24 pm

The above is a whole load of nothing.


 :-\. Hehe, the funniest thing I've read all morning. My work here is done!

Now I'll go back to "Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance:  the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training" Stephen Seiler and Espen Tønnessen 2009. Which btw is not the answer to your question but just happens to be a paper I am working through at the moment.

Whatever (clever) Trevor
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 27 December, 2018, 08:06:53 pm
I don’t think I can reliably complete 3-minute intervals at 120% of my estimated threshold power.

You can :thumbsup:
You probably can. Depends on how many of them you want to try, and how big the rest intervals are... Give it a go...  :thumbsup:

Not repeatably.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/11051876-kaiser
You did the first 2. Do you think you could have done the third if you had a bit more rest in between? That would have got you halfway through the session...

I'm going to try to get my fixie working with the Tacx Bushido - I shall soon discover if any of the intervals I thought I could do were really OK, or if the dumb trainer was what was getting me through sessions!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 29 December, 2018, 12:23:10 pm
Tried the fixie and the smart trainer today. Significant fail - it won't let me ride at 120W with my gearing (48x17) - I get down to about 130W at 60rpm and then it just ramps the resistance up. Warmup was at 250W, and then the rest interval was too hard and I quit (I can't do 5 minutes at or above FTP, then drop it down a little and then do VO2 work).
Maybe it will work better with a lower gear - I have a 20 tooth cog to try (and I can just about get away with the same length chain). Otherwise I'll have to dump my geared bike on there for the build workouts and just do speciality (lots of threshold stuff) on the fixie. Alternatively, if I can whack my FTP up loads, 130-150W would be a comfortable recovery!  :-X
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 December, 2018, 04:01:29 pm
 Back on it after 5 days off with Christmas etc. Over unders. What fun we had.

Edit: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46539300-mcadie
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 29 December, 2018, 07:57:19 pm
We're overdosing on Zwift. Getting up and down stairs is a story of involuntary noises this evening.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 29 December, 2018, 09:26:39 pm
You can tell I wasn't on it this morning - I forgot to reset my crank length - actual length =165mm, pedals think they were on 172.5. Ooops.
I guess that means my real power was a few % over what it reported. Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 December, 2018, 06:14:32 pm
Last workout of 2018.

Highest 2h power of the year and higher than any 2h power in 2017.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46616851-wright-peak-2

Day off tomorrow.  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 December, 2018, 08:16:50 pm
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 31 December, 2018, 07:36:23 am
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.

  :thumbsup:
My enforced turbo based winters made a big difference to my speed! This time I'm adding the Z1 work too (plus S&C) so it'll be interesting to see what difference that makes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 31 December, 2018, 01:47:16 pm
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.

  :thumbsup:
My enforced turbo based winters made a big difference to my speed! This time I'm adding the Z1 work too (plus S&C) so it'll be interesting to see what difference that makes.

What is S&C?

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 31 December, 2018, 02:04:34 pm
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.

  :thumbsup:
My enforced turbo based winters made a big difference to my speed! This time I'm adding the Z1 work too (plus S&C) so it'll be interesting to see what difference that makes.

What is S&C?

Cheers

Mike

Strength & Conditioning.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 January, 2019, 07:12:00 pm
No rest.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46763492-solomons

If my FTP was set too high, this workout would find me out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 01 January, 2019, 09:20:01 pm
Whilst I’m still still confined to the turbo and missing the outdoors, I’ll have to say the training is very effective.  Volume increased to 11h30m this week.  4 structured sessions and 3 endurance based fillers.  All of it in my new race position as well.  I seem to be adapting to it quite well.

  :thumbsup:
My enforced turbo based winters made a big difference to my speed! This time I'm adding the Z1 work too (plus S&C) so it'll be interesting to see what difference that makes.

What is S&C?

Cheers

Mike

Strength & Conditioning.

Yep.
I dug out my very old Weight Training for Cyclists book and Tudor Bompa’s Periodization Training for Sports to help plan a sensible routine and then Sufferfest introduced their program via the SF app.

Been doing it for 5/6 weeks now and it’s working well so far. Some exercises are not dissimilar to the ones BC suggest. The tricky thing is to work out when to incorporate the S&C sessions into the overall plan, I normally do them early morning on a rest/easy day so the legs recover sufficiently for the next interval session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 January, 2019, 08:44:51 am
No rest.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/46763492-solomons

If my FTP was set too high, this workout would find me out.
That's a tough ride. Looks like you upped the power on the last interval - if you can do that then maybe your FTP is slightly too low? :demon:

I did an outdoor sufferfest on New Years eve. Daft club event where we all set off together, did loads of climbing (for Oxfordshire) at our own pace, and then had a pint before riding home.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/46668025-brill-5-0

Gonna do a short hard ride tomorrow on the turbo, and then probably an FTP test on Saturday (possibly a cross race Sunday, if everything comes together). Then it'll be the Sustained Power Build for the next 8 weeks...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 January, 2019, 08:37:09 am
Weird experience on Trainerroad yesterday.  There is something not quite right in the way that erg mode is working. 
First 40 mins went ok but when I put the effort back on after a rest interval, the resistance was really spikey, so I was pedalling squares.  Couldn't establish any rythmn, even if I changed right down and tried to spin, etc.  Eventually I restarted the trainer and it was then ok, but not as smooth as at the start. 
Trainer is a Tacx Vortex.
I contacted TR support and asked them. They suggested using an extension to get the ANT+ dongle nearer the trainer, and backpedalling to reset if it happened again, which I'll try.
Anyone else had this?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 January, 2019, 09:01:17 pm
Weird experience on Trainerroad yesterday.  There is something not quite right in the way that erg mode is working. 
First 40 mins went ok but when I put the effort back on after a rest interval, the resistance was really spikey, so I was pedalling squares.  Couldn't establish any rythmn, even if I changed right down and tried to spin, etc.  Eventually I restarted the trainer and it was then ok, but not as smooth as at the start. 
Trainer is a Tacx Vortex.
I contacted TR support and asked them. They suggested using an extension to get the ANT+ dongle nearer the trainer, and backpedalling to reset if it happened again, which I'll try.
Anyone else had this?

Not seen this.

I suspect it's more likely the trainer playing up - is the FW to date?

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 January, 2019, 09:02:48 pm
Ansel Adams today. Could not face a 2h sweet-spot workout after a hard week.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/47255435-ansel-adams

Over a year since I completed this workout successfully. 1h with an IF=0.98, so it's a hard one. More evidence of FTP bump on the way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 07 January, 2019, 09:55:00 am
Weird experience on Trainerroad yesterday.  There is something not quite right in the way that erg mode is working. 
First 40 mins went ok but when I put the effort back on after a rest interval, the resistance was really spikey, so I was pedalling squares.  Couldn't establish any rythmn, even if I changed right down and tried to spin, etc.  Eventually I restarted the trainer and it was then ok, but not as smooth as at the start. 
Trainer is a Tacx Vortex.
I contacted TR support and asked them. They suggested using an extension to get the ANT+ dongle nearer the trainer, and backpedalling to reset if it happened again, which I'll try.
Anyone else had this?
Yes.
We put the dongle on an extension and it did improve things. But then I bought a Drivo. And then he did, too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 07 January, 2019, 10:05:00 am
I've put an extension lead in so will find out if it is ok tomorrow when I do my ramp test!
I can see that if I end up doing more of this, I'd probably need to upgrade to something better.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 07 January, 2019, 10:08:57 am
I still use a USB extension, even with the new trainer - basically the ant+ dongle is right under the trainer.

Fboab uses Apple TV, so her experience is all Bluetooth and a different world of hurt.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 January, 2019, 12:34:34 pm
I put the road bike with the P1 pedals onto the bushido smart yesterday. No problem hitting the low power conditions in something like 34x25 using power match. :)
Problem with hardware solved, now it's time for the problem with the wetware - my FTP test sucked. I got up early for a Sunday, chased my daughter around a cyclocross field in the morning, then had chips, and did the FTP test after getting home (and a banana and a cup of tea). I didn't turn my fan on at the start, meaning I got very hot by the end, and I quit rather than failed - suggested new FTP was only 224. :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/47230431-ramp-test

I was hoping for a bit of a boost - clearly Christmas and then the trainer issues had more impact than I thought. I could probably have done a bit better had I been psyched to go deeper (last time I almost fell off my bike after stopping and was no good to pedal for several minutes!), but I started it thinking it was going to be hard, and that messed me up I think.  Either that, or erg mode Ramps are harder than geared ones. I think I'll drop the FTP from 244 to 240 and start Sustained Power Build anyway. Not the ideal way to start the new year though.
I've also started writing a blog on my fixed TT process - I'm aiming to write at least once a week. https://fixedtting.home.blog/ It will probably contain lots of what I put on here until I start racing though!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 07 January, 2019, 05:46:20 pm
Just completed a Ramp Test - the first one since July - and managed a 2% increase...

I'm very happy about this, as I had surgery in August that kept me off the bike for some time: in Sept and Oct I had a couple of aborted attempts at getting back on the bike, before knocking it on the head and just walking 5 hilly miles every day until I felt normal again. In Nov I completed a 'recuperation' program of steady, recovery-level workouts in TR, then commenced SSB Low Vol part I at the end of Nov, finishing that last week. I tried to get really high quality workouts by ensuring I got loads of rest/recovery etc, and skipping a few days when I felt under the weather rather than forcing it.

The FTP bump is testimony to the efficacy of structured interval training, and TR's implementation of it.

Shame the "reward" isn't something more pleasant than increased suffering in the workouts to come ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 January, 2019, 08:58:26 pm
 :thumbsup: great stuff
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 07 January, 2019, 09:30:07 pm
:thumbsup: great stuff

If that's for me then cheers!  8)

I posted here a while ago about seeing whether I could get to 4w/kg. It's quite possible that's impossible for me, particularly with the low-ish volume approach I want to stick to, so I've decided to have a nearer-term more achievable goal - sort of a "shrink goal" (opposite of a stretch goal, innit).

It's a pure FTP goal: I was 236w last year, tested today at 242, and the goal is 260 by the end of the coming season. I'm not bothered about weight - I'm naturally dead lean and am actually trying to add a little bit of weight through weight training - so it makes sense to take the weight bit out of my goal.

260 would be a 10% uplift from last year's 236. I think it's a realistic goal, ?probably? achievable, but we shall see, and a lot depends on how the old body responds etc. If I got there, I'm sure I'd feel noticeably quicker out on the road and/or find pootling around that much easier/enjoyable, which is sort of the motivator for all of this.

And if I don't manage it, at least I'll have endured a load of suffering while trying for it  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 08 January, 2019, 09:26:22 am
I found it really hard to get up this morning, but I managed it (a little delayed as my alarm wasn't set). My resolution of doing something, even if it's not the full scheduled workout has survived it's first test! :)
I think that it's harder to do TR on erg mode (with my setup) in a couple of ways.  One - I don't think I'm getting much flywheel effect, so the dead spots are brutal (today was more comfortable at 110 cadence than 95 even). Secondly, I noticed that when running the manual shifting setup there would be intervals where I was a couple of watts down, and so my TSS at the end of the session would be a couple of points off where it should be. The erg makes me ride as much above as below target, and that means I get the full TSS hit.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/47399634-adams-1
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 08 January, 2019, 09:26:09 pm
I did a ramp test today and got an FTP of 180, which is pretty underwhelming but not altogether surprising as I've not ridden much in the last 2.5 years and am not in great shape. 

In 2014, when I was last racing regularly and when I set most of my PBs, I didn't train (other than doing rides I wanted to do and riding to work), but I averaged 250W for a 10, 230W for a 25 and 200W for a 100.  And I would average 175W over 8 hours on a 200km audax. So, while I never had massive power, I have fallen a long way in five years, from around 3.5W/kg FTP to close to 2.5. 

I wonder how much of my lost power I can get back, and how quickly I might be able to do it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 08 January, 2019, 09:38:21 pm
my dad is of very similar build as you, he started his structured training from 192w and reached 240w in about year and a half, on and off. as you have already been there i reckon it's possible to reach (and exceed) your previous fitness in 6-7 months, i.e. one training programme. consistency will play the biggest role in that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 08 January, 2019, 09:45:31 pm
That's encouraging!  Thanks
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 08 January, 2019, 11:12:40 pm
I wonder how much of my lost power I can get back, and how quickly I might be able to do it.

If you can stick to a good, progressive plan (ie. follow TrainerRoad Base1->Base2->Build cycles, regularly retesting), rest and recover well, and remain largely injury and illness free, no reason you can't make excellent progress: match or exceed your previous w/kg within 18 months, and get much of the way there in 9 months. Or your money back  ;)

If that was your first TR ramp test, it might understate your FTP a touch due to your unfamiliarity with the protocol, ie. the requirement to go so deep / desperately hang on in the last couple of minutes, which IME improved slightly with a bit of practice.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 09 January, 2019, 10:01:52 am
Thanks.  There definitely were issues with the test (trainer resistance was a bit low so, when I bailed out, my cadence was 110, with increasing cadence being as much a challenge as increasing power). 

But I don't want to allow myself an easy break on account of that as I didn't do any testing when I was fitter in 2014 and thereabouts.  The 230, which I took as my FTP, was just what I did on the only 25 I did that year (which got me 57:25  :)).  If I had done a proper test my FTP may well have been higher (and if I had trained it might have been higher still!).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 January, 2019, 09:29:09 am
The Ramp Test really stresses how well your training setup works. If you have any sort of issue then you're probably underestimating it. Even when you're shifting gears to help drive the power up, you can find that you get a hole where shifting up is too big a jump, but you're so close to the ragged edge that you can't spin any better in the lower gear.
I'm wondering if I should adjust my FTP down a bit, or do another test. Tuesday I survived a 30 minute interval workout. Today my back tightened up when I started the second of the 12 minute over-under interval. I adjusted the saddle a bit forward and then tried again, and I got one over-under in, before it tightened up again:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/47608410-carpathian-peak-1

I'll probably try the scheduled 90 minute ride (long threshold intervals) this weekend and see how that goes - if I fail that I might try a new Ramp test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 10 January, 2019, 09:55:47 am
I am allowed back on the road again.   I've worked my way up to 12hrs a week of turbo work, but I'll start to build my commutes back in and add a bit of weekend riding.   I rode in this morning and can now put weight on my hand again so we're going on the right direction.   I'm not sure it would handle a few hours of riding, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 January, 2019, 10:59:28 am
That's good news.  :thumbsup:
Keep taking it steady and build up gradually.  If you can manage 12 hours a week on the turbo you clearly have the requisite patience!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 10 January, 2019, 03:33:58 pm
My FTP is higher than Frank's!

Flattering as that is, I very much doubt it. Re-set the trainer and try again in a week.

Even if it's true, I have many many many more kg for those W to shift :(

I'm working like a *somethin* on the turbo at the moment. Not riding to work is doing wonders for my motivation.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 January, 2019, 04:01:40 pm
180 doesn't sound that unlikely for someone coming back after a fairly long break.

I did ramp test in early 2015, with a VO2max and respiratory quotient and my FTP was in 200-220 range; I'd had several months off after the Scottish 1300k and mostly had been doing weights with limited cardio.

By the time PBP came around it was in the 240-260 range (the ramp was 20W steps) and in 2016 I got 260-280 on the same test.

Couple of years off and I could have easily been well under 200W.

I believe Nate Pearson (co-founder of TrainerRoad) has been as low as 180W after a long break and is currently >300W.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 January, 2019, 04:07:35 pm
I did a test in September 2016 and was on 171. By July 2017 I was at 261. There's a bit of grade inflation cause by changing measuring device, but it's not too far off. So it's entirely possible to pick up a significant boost in FTP by plugging away at the plan, even on low volume, so long as you maintain consistency (this was TR, though I'm sure others would be similar). I understand it is easier to return to a previous level than it is to break new ground as well.

(Sadly I damaged my foot in July, dropped down to 235 after a month of no activity and I'm not much above that now.)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 13 January, 2019, 12:46:28 pm
I am allowed back on the road again.   I've worked my way up to 12hrs a week of turbo work, but I'll start to build my commutes back in and add a bit of weekend riding.   I rode in this morning and can now put weight on my hand again so we're going on the right direction.   I'm not sure it would handle a few hours of riding, though.

2hr road ride yesterday resulted in quite a sore wrist.  Clearly some way to go.  I’ll need to mix and match turbo and road work for a while.

10hrs on the turbo this week but 6hrs on the road.   I sense the road miles weren’t very helpful fitness wise even if they were good for the soul.   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 January, 2019, 05:15:18 pm
Sounds like you're making progress. :)

I did Mount Goode today - loads of threshold work.
It felt hard mentally, but not too bad physically. Turned fan on before first interval. Took a couple of 20s backpedal breaks in the second and third intervals, mainly for motivation - it gave me manageable targets to aim for rather than knowing I had 15 minutes to go!
Right hip tightened slightly with 2 minutes to go, but otherwise OK...
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/47863797-mount-goode

I now understand why people do backpedal breaks when using the erg trainer. It's so hard to stretch or stand while doing the scheduled ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 13 January, 2019, 06:31:12 pm
22 hours on the road (Seiler zone 1) and 7x1 hour interval sessions (4x10’ ) so far this month. Retirement is great!😁
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 13 January, 2019, 06:37:50 pm
22 hours on the road (Seiler zone 1) and 7x1 hour interval sessions (4x10’ ) so far this month. Retirement is great!😁

I turn 46 in a couple of weeks. There is some way to go.

I reckon work stops me from overcooking it. That’s my excuse anyway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 January, 2019, 09:05:55 am
More struggles with PowerMatch this morning.

The structure of the workout is 1 minute at 120% power, 30s off, repeat 7 times. Break, repeat, break, repeat, done.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48045233-bashful-1

I felt OK on first set - was hard but doable. Second interval of second set, the resistance just died off. I don't know if it was the power meter, the trainer, or TR on my phone, but it was like I finished the interval. Resistance didn't pick up for the third one, so I stopped and recalibrated the trainer, and suddenly I was having to do 400W instead of 300W! I then recalibrated my power meter, which jumped from 18 to 23, but made no difference. I then stopped the ride, turned off bluetooth, turned off TR, and booted everything back up. I rode 2 intervals at 400W, and then changed the intensity to 85% so that the resistance came down and I could do 400W. I turned it back up again for the last set, and resistance seemed a bit low, so I wasn't able to get 300W unless I span at >110 rpm. I was short on time by that point, so I skipped ahead to the cool down.

I can see the advantages of erg mode, in forcing you to do the workout as specified, and not clunking up and down the cassette, but it's really frustrating when this sort of thing happens.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 January, 2019, 10:46:54 am
More struggles with PowerMatch this morning.

The structure of the workout is 1 minute at 120% power, 30s off, repeat 7 times. Break, repeat, break, repeat, done.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48045233-bashful-1

I felt OK on first set - was hard but doable. Second interval of second set, the resistance just died off. I don't know if it was the power meter, the trainer, or TR on my phone, but it was like I finished the interval. Resistance didn't pick up for the third one, so I stopped and recalibrated the trainer, and suddenly I was having to do 400W instead of 300W! I then recalibrated my power meter, which jumped from 18 to 23, but made no difference. I then stopped the ride, turned off bluetooth, turned off TR, and booted everything back up. I rode 2 intervals at 400W, and then changed the intensity to 85% so that the resistance came down and I could do 400W. I turned it back up again for the last set, and resistance seemed a bit low, so I wasn't able to get 300W unless I span at >110 rpm. I was short on time by that point, so I skipped ahead to the cool down.

I can see the advantages of erg mode, in forcing you to do the workout as specified, and not clunking up and down the cassette, but it's really frustrating when this sort of thing happens.

Which trainer are you using now?

I'm using a Neo and don't use power match at the moment. It seems fine except I've had some bluetooth drop-outs where everything stops working. I've reset a few things and it seems to be ok now.

Power match adds a extra feedback loop and source of issues since both the trainer and the power meter needs a stable connection and to be working correctly. I think the Neo is reliable enough that I don't need it. Sadly my old Kickr did need it, it was over-reading by enough to make a real difference. I'm now competing with numbers from 2016 that I'll probably never match.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 January, 2019, 01:24:05 pm
I'm using a Tacx Bushido Smart. It's still wheel-on, and I have power pedals, so it makes more sense to use them as the measuring device.
I might get myself an Ant+ dongle for my laptop and see if hooking up to that makes any difference (compared to bluetooth and phone). That will also force me to build a stand for the laptop (I have the wood and a plan), and mean I can train without staring at my stem the whole time!
When it all works as it should it's good, and I can see how it's better than the old dumb trainer and changing gear. The old way has fewer failure modes though!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 15 January, 2019, 04:26:59 pm
I'm having erratic power levels in erg mode too (Tacx Vortex + Trainerroad).  Takes maybe a minute to adjust to new interval power levels, sometimes goes really high, other times really low. 

I'm going to try out a range of things before I go to Tacx support.
- adjust the TR power smoothing in settings to a longer period
- use it with power match turned off - ie using the Tacx power not my PM
- do a workout on the Tacx app to see if it is Trainerroad or Tacx problem
- use Bluetooth connection rather than ant+.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 January, 2019, 08:53:25 pm
Ramp test tonight. 239W. Slowly edging up.

Probably a little fatigued from last night’s rowing outing. It’s hard to fit it in after a rest day just now. So I reckon it would have been 240+ if fresher.

At least it’s improving.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 16 January, 2019, 03:13:32 pm
i did a ramp test this morning and was surprised in a positive way - i reckon i'm fittest i've ever been at 4.7w/kg

looking forward to the "new and improved" workouts ahead (not!)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 January, 2019, 03:46:17 pm
i did a ramp test this morning and was surprised in a positive way - i reckon i'm fittest i've ever been at 4.7w/kg

looking forward to the "new and improved" workouts ahead (not!)
That's a serious engine. Congrats! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 16 January, 2019, 09:48:49 pm
i reckon i'm fittest i've ever been at 4.7w/kg

Nice - I look forward to never ever joining you on a hilly ride ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: sojournermike on 16 January, 2019, 10:08:00 pm
i reckon i'm fittest i've ever been at 4.7w/kg

Nice - I look forward to never ever joining you on a hilly ride ;D

To be fair, zigzag would have to be very very light for even a flat ride to make sense;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 17 January, 2019, 07:14:34 am
Yesterday was a rest day so I spent two hours analysing all the different interval sessions used in the last 12 months to confirm which elicit the most time at ≥90%HRmax (for Seiler zone3 purposes). Just another 2 weeks on the current block then three weeks with a more varied set of workouts based on my findings.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 January, 2019, 09:31:04 am
i reckon i'm fittest i've ever been at 4.7w/kg

Nice - I look forward to never ever joining you on a hilly ride ;D

To be fair, zigzag would have to be very very light for even a flat ride to make sense;)

it's all relative, sometimes i ride with faster guys and get dropped..

no matter how strong you are there's always someone to put you in your place :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 17 January, 2019, 10:35:21 am
I'm dieting for a weight of 41kg with no loss of power then I can match Zigzag :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 17 January, 2019, 11:48:53 am
i did a ramp test this morning and was surprised in a positive way - i reckon i'm fittest i've ever been at 4.7w/kg

looking forward to the "new and improved" workouts ahead (not!)

Wow, I am targeting 3W/kg by PBP.  I do not know what my highest W/kg has ever been.  All I know is, is that I was my fittest on the bike pre Audax and pre turbo.  If only I still had that daily commute. Too much steady endurance pace in recent years. My average speed is climbing back up this winter, so heading the right way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 January, 2019, 01:44:18 pm
I might be able to get to 3.25 by PBP. Need to gain 10W and lose 6kg. Or gain 20W and lose 3kg.  If I gain 20W that would be roughly where I got to in 2015 but slightly heavier. I’ll have gears though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 17 January, 2019, 04:30:39 pm
Yesterday was a rest day so I spent two hours analysing all the different interval sessions used in the last 12 months to confirm which elicit the most time at ≥90%HRmax (for Seiler zone3 purposes). Just another 2 weeks on the current block then three weeks with a more varied set of workouts based on my findings.

A study was done on the above - guess you missed reading that one Trev?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Aleksdad1 on 17 January, 2019, 06:13:43 pm
Did my first ever 20 minute test on my recently acquired Atom yesterday and after a struggle at the beginning produced an average of 195w giving me exactly 3w per kilo. Found it pretty hard although my legs were a little tired after my 5 x 3 minute running intervals at an average HR 0f 140bpm the day before. Reality has taken over where self delusion previously ruled. Hoping for a bit of improvement over the next few months so I can drag McNasty round his 60th mersey 24 after my 74th birthday in July.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 January, 2019, 11:47:03 pm
Did my first ever 20 minute test on my recently acquired Atom yesterday and after a struggle at the beginning produced an average of 195w giving me exactly 3w per kilo. Found it pretty hard although my legs were a little tired after my 5 x 3 minute running intervals at an average HR 0f 140bpm the day before. Reality has taken over where self delusion previously ruled. Hoping for a bit of improvement over the next few months so I can drag McNasty round his 60th mersey 24 after my 74th birthday in July.

3w/kg at 73. Good starting point!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 18 January, 2019, 08:19:17 am
Did my first ever 20 minute test on my recently acquired Atom yesterday and after a struggle at the beginning produced an average of 195w giving me exactly 3w per kilo. Found it pretty hard although my legs were a little tired after my 5 x 3 minute running intervals at an average HR 0f 140bpm the day before. Reality has taken over where self delusion previously ruled. Hoping for a bit of improvement over the next few months so I can drag McNasty round his 60th mersey 24 after my 74th birthday in July.

I like this a lot  👍
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 January, 2019, 09:20:55 am
Hell yeah Aleksdad1! I'm 41 and I've been doing Trainer Road for about 18 months, and I'm only just over 3W/kg.  :thumbsup:

I had a bike fit yesterday - we moved my TT position about loads (and I've ordered a new seatpost to help move me forwards), and tweaked my road bike saddle setup.
This morning I did Fang Mountain. What a revelation.
1. Erg mode finally makes sense - I hated the increasing power requirement of this workout when I had to achieve it by cadence changes or gear changes.
2. No numbness.
3. I increased the intensity to 102% halfway through because under/overs felt entirely doable. I wonder if I should do another FTP test in my new position it's made that much difference! Astonishing how moving the saddle about  1 cm, and the seatpost about 5 mm can feel so different.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48308549-fang-mountain-1
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 19 January, 2019, 10:00:33 pm
I'm having erratic power levels in erg mode too (Tacx Vortex + Trainerroad).  Takes maybe a minute to adjust to new interval power levels, sometimes goes really high, other times really low. 

I'm going to try out a range of things before I go to Tacx support.
- adjust the TR power smoothing in settings to a longer period
- use it with power match turned off - ie using the Tacx power not my PM
- do a workout on the Tacx app to see if it is Trainerroad or Tacx problem
- use Bluetooth connection rather than ant+.

The problem was power match. 
Smoothing doesn't affect the resistance, it only smooths the numbers on the screen.
When I did a workout on the tacx app the power was Rock solid. Even when I played around with taking cadence right down and up.
In TR I had to tell it to forget my pm, not just turn off power match.
I then did a ramp test and it was pretty solid. It wouldn't ramp up on about the ninth step but flipping into the big ring got it working again, don't know why.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 19 January, 2019, 10:10:13 pm


I then did a ramp test and it was pretty solid. It wouldn't ramp up on about the ninth step but flipping into the big ring got it working again, don't know why.

it could be that the trainer can only provide so much braking/resistance. changing into a big ring makes it easier for the trainer, aiui.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 20 January, 2019, 07:09:28 am
Did my first ever 20 minute test on my recently acquired Atom yesterday and after a struggle at the beginning produced an average of 195w giving me exactly 3w per kilo. Found it pretty hard although my legs were a little tired after my 5 x 3 minute running intervals at an average HR 0f 140bpm the day before. Reality has taken over where self delusion previously ruled. Hoping for a bit of improvement over the next few months so I can drag McNasty round his 60th mersey 24 after my 74th birthday in July.

Very impressive!  :thumbsup:

If I remember correctly, I think the last time I rode the 24 (3 years ago?), didn't McNasty have to ride on his own because you were unwell?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Alex B on 20 January, 2019, 08:39:36 am

[...] The problem was power match [...]


I used to have a Tacx Vortex and (Stages) PM and was never happy with how these worked with TrainerRoad using power match. What made me most suspicious was a subjective variation in easiness of sessions, and a power graph line that was sometimes very spiky, and sometimes very smooth. Although I never got to the bottom of why, I suspected sometimes TR latched on to the PM, and sometimes the Vortex without ever "matching" them properly. In the end I "upgraded" to a Cycleops Hammer which "just works".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 January, 2019, 03:56:50 pm
Power match seems to be working for me again now. I wonder if it's just spiky intervals it had issues with. I calibrated the trainer and the PM before I started. I'm well pleased with how today's ride went. 5x10 minutes at threshold over the course of 90 minutes should be hard - it was, but it was also doable. I have 1 more week of work before a rest week and then a retest.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48483522-kaweah

I also built myself a trainer desk out of some old shelves. It's not exactly strong and stable, but it won't fall over and hopefully I can put my laptop (and drinks/food/tissues) on there and use ANT+ (which will mean I'll get power from both my pedals instead of just the left). It should also mean I get used to looking up a bit more. That's the theory...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 21 January, 2019, 10:11:21 am
I am allowed back on the road again.   I've worked my way up to 12hrs a week of turbo work, but I'll start to build my commutes back in and add a bit of weekend riding.   I rode in this morning and can now put weight on my hand again so we're going on the right direction.   I'm not sure it would handle a few hours of riding, though.

2hr road ride yesterday resulted in quite a sore wrist.  Clearly some way to go.  I’ll need to mix and match turbo and road work for a while.

10hrs on the turbo this week but 6hrs on the road.   I sense the road miles weren’t very helpful fitness wise even if they were good for the soul.

8.5hrs on the turbo and 10hrs on the road last week.   Longest road ride was 2hrs.   The hand is starting to strengthen but it's a long road.   As long as I can get round a couple of 200s in March things should be fine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 January, 2019, 11:11:32 am
4.4km rowing race on Saturday. No so long ago following that with a 3x20 sweet spot workout the next day would not have gone well. Legs a little heavy but nowhere near failure. Heart and lungs were “meh, is that all you got?” 

More rowing this evening so might be less blase after that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 January, 2019, 09:18:20 am
The last 2 workouts were great - this one was well hard! I didn't take any rests or backpedals, so I wasn't quite on my limit, but I must have been really close.
3 sets of 5 intervals each 1.5 minutes on, with 1 minute off in between (and 5 minutes between intervals). The "on" parts were from 121% of FTP to 125% FTP (stepping up).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48642613-bashful-2
Not helped by doing it at 6am and it being absolutely freezing, but at least I got it done. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 22 January, 2019, 11:44:54 am
The last 2 workouts were great - this one was well hard! I didn't take any rests or backpedals, so I wasn't quite on my limit, but I must have been really close.
3 sets of 5 intervals each 1.5 minutes on, with 1 minute off in between (and 5 minutes between intervals). The "on" parts were from 121% of FTP to 125% FTP (stepping up).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48642613-bashful-2
Not helped by doing it at 6am and it being absolutely freezing, but at least I got it done. :)

Good effort! These really hard efforts I prefer to do early morning otherwise I spend all day with a sense of impending doom!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 22 January, 2019, 07:52:21 pm
The impending doom thing isn’t just me then.  I welcomed a late conference call at work and then got snowed on on the ride home.  Will now defer that session to tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 January, 2019, 09:24:37 pm
The impending doom thing isn’t just me then.  I welcomed a late conference call at work and then got snowed on on the ride home.  Will now defer that session to tomorrow.

Caught up. Feel better now but stairs are an issue.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 24 January, 2019, 06:29:37 am
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 24 January, 2019, 06:46:56 am
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2019, 07:48:25 am
Power match seems to be working for me again now. I wonder if it's just spiky intervals it had issues with. I calibrated the trainer and the PM before I started.

Good to hear.  I've not been able to get Power Match working for me.  I've now tried doing a couple of sessions with my power meter disconnected so using my trainer to measure power.

That works to the extent that it enables me to do a workout with a steady resistance level, rather than bouncing all over the place with Power Match, so that is good. 

However, I'm also recording my power meter output at the same time via my Garmin.  What I find is that there is significant difference between the levels of power measured by the trainer and by the power meter (average is about 15W) and, more importantly, it is not a consistent difference.  I did some under and over intervals last week and, for one of the overs, I spun up to a high cadence.  I felt the resistance fall and although my trainer power / trainerroad said the power had gone up, it actually felt easier than the previous under.  My power meter said the power was lower, and my heart rate started to fall.

It's now at least usable, but I'm not confident that I am getting exactly the work-out that I am supposed to be getting.

I did a short session on the Tacx app and the power seemed rock solid.  Next I'll do a longer session and see how it behaves, comparing to PM.   I've also got another Stages PM so can swap that in to see if there is an issue with the one I am using.

I've asked TR where they think the issues is: Stages PM, their software or Tacx trainer - but no answer yet. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 24 January, 2019, 10:11:46 am
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?

Just Google "drivo erg mode" and read some of the threads on the Elite forum :)

Some of that stuff is pretty old, and the firmware has been updated since, but the Drivo still "hunts" the power setting when in Erg Mode, whereas other trainers seem to lock it in much more steadily. Elite say this is the Drivo being more "honest", and that other trainers (Tacx wheel-off trainers, various Kickrs) do much more smoothing to make the graphs look tidy.

I dunno - I pretty-much never use the Drivo in Erg Mode.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 24 January, 2019, 11:06:05 am
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?
I don't know what app you are using, but the key I've found is to be spinning at a high cadence (>95 rpm) in the 10 seconds before the high power interval starts. If I do that (TR with Tacx Bushido Smart) then the second the interval starts the resistance spikes, but it settles down very quickly. If I'm not paying attention or spinning really slowly for some reason, then the resistance flies up, I can't maintain the low rpm and as I drop the rpm the resistance gets worse and it's a downward spiral.
Apologies if that's teaching anyone to suck eggs - I'm new to erg mode too. ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 24 January, 2019, 11:14:44 am
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?

Just Google "drivo erg mode" and read some of the threads on the Elite forum :)

Some of that stuff is pretty old, and the firmware has been updated since, but the Drivo still "hunts" the power setting when in Erg Mode, whereas other trainers seem to lock it in much more steadily. Elite say this is the Drivo being more "honest", and that other trainers (Tacx wheel-off trainers, various Kickrs) do much more smoothing to make the graphs look tidy.

I dunno - I pretty-much never use the Drivo in Erg Mode.

Cheers

Great video from Shane Miller on this that explains to effect on which gear you're in and the flywheel effect. I'll give Erg mode another go with superFTP efforts using the big ring this time and see what happens.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 24 January, 2019, 11:44:52 am
There seems to be a suggestion as well that if you get caught in the trap of low cadence, masive force required, then back pedalling is the thing to do.  This may be TR specific though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 24 January, 2019, 01:20:07 pm
There seems to be a suggestion as well that if you get caught in the trap of low cadence, masive force required, then back pedalling is the thing to do.  This may be TR specific though.

Similar for SF but that messes up my average power stats for the interval which is how I track my progress week to week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 24 January, 2019, 02:09:42 pm
I'm not caught in the spiral of death. It's just lag lag lag.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/0f99642fedd5485c46dd3f8f9be7a5b8.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2019, 02:32:45 pm
I had a bit of that when I was using Power Match on TR.  It could take up to a minute to adjust to the new power at the start of an interval.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 January, 2019, 02:35:06 pm
I don’t think the kickr or the Neo have this lag. I used powermatch for a while and it seemed to work well.

I should record some workouts with a separate pm without powermatch to see.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 24 January, 2019, 02:43:02 pm
Today, did Tacx Bushido smart in slope mode doing high gear low cadence work.   It was solid on the resistance.  Will increase angle of slope it is simulating next go. But low cadence (around 50) did not cause it an issue. This is using the Tacx training app.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 24 January, 2019, 03:01:22 pm
I don’t think the kickr or the Neo have this lag. I used powermatch for a while and it seemed to work well.

I should record some workouts with a separate pm without powermatch to see.

They don't show this lag.

Elite's line is that this is because they massage smooth the output figures to such an extent it disguises it. I'm not sure how true I think this is- even the Vortex felt like it 'locked in' to a target power more and sooner than this does. This feels like a bike, not a spin bike. You can't switch from 150W to 350W in a nano second, that's not how legs work.

I did the workout pictured the day I got the trainer and promptly arranged to have it sent back. After riding it for a weekend and (getting a man in to do) some research, I decided to keep it.
Pfft, I paid £600 for it. I can live with 1 minute intervals that are 30 seconds later than expected.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 24 January, 2019, 03:22:04 pm
from what i've read i think there is a short gradual transition (2-3s) from say 150->350w on trainerroad at least, and that's how it feels on my trainer (flux s). longer lag indicates there is something not as it's supposed or designed to be. when we press on the pedals on our bikes outside we apply the power instantly because we are in charge when to sprint/accelerate. on erg mode we have to ride reactively and a couple of seconds of smoothing to adjust the legs to required intensity is a good thing.

30s on 30s off:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/6137e4a8242aef7df4109f121a4ae0ab.jpg)

3 × 12min near threshold:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/d88f83f2e5725f4439daf72e4e2b1a35.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2019, 04:06:51 pm
Are you using a power meter, or the trainer's measurement of power?
I get those kind of sharp adjustments and smooth lines if I use my trainer to measure power.  But I can feel that the measurements are not right.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 24 January, 2019, 04:07:57 pm
I'm not caught in the spiral of death. It's just lag lag lag.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/0f99642fedd5485c46dd3f8f9be7a5b8.jpg)
That picture looks like the white line (cadence?) is rising up into the interval. I find that if I spin up as the the interval starts then it gets really confused and will let the resistance stay low because it is seeing the increase in cadence as the start of a power spike.  I had loads of strange behaviour when I started because I was used to trying to achieve the power changes with my legs/gears. I'm finding it much better now I just try to keep my cadence the same and let the erg deal with changing the resistance to correct the power.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 24 January, 2019, 04:26:16 pm
The inverse of that of course is if you don't start to anticipate the interval with increased cadence, you get bogged down into the spiral of deth when it ramps up from 100 to 400W.

But that's partly the issue I have with some of these apps - the use of the word "Ramp" when they mean "Step"; a ramp is generally much easier to handle than a step. The background chatter on the Elite forums about the Drivo in Erg Mode was all about how you can never get a nice tidy looking graph like zigzag's - it's always a bag of spaghetti like fboab's.

We still bought them though, because there's no other way to get 98%+ power accuracy in a sub £1000 trainer. For all their Erg Mode weirdness, the Drivos have awesome accuracy.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 24 January, 2019, 04:29:30 pm
I think the workout was requesting 90-100 for the intervals and 80-85 for the rest period? I can't remember, I'm not doing TR workouts at the moment, they don't work with my trainer...
I have the same problem on Zwift but it's harder to get pretty pictures to demonstrate quite so clearly what's happening.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 24 January, 2019, 04:42:36 pm
Are you using a power meter, or the trainer's measurement of power?
I get those kind of sharp adjustments and smooth lines if I use my trainer to measure power.  But I can feel that the measurements are not right.
i've tried both ways before and did not find much difference compared to stages, but the power line drawn with the stages pm is more choppy as it's measured closer to source and the power only comes from the left side doubled up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 24 January, 2019, 04:45:04 pm


when we press on the pedals on our bikes outside we apply the power instantly because we are in charge when to sprint/accelerate. on erg mode we have to ride reactively and a couple of seconds of smoothing to adjust the legs to required intensity is a good thing.
Elite claim that because the optical power meter in the trainer reports the actual power you're putting out, you inevitably have a lag as your (my) legs will over-react to the big jump in resistance and there is a balancing as the surge in power from the legs automatically tells the trainer to reduce the resistance. What they claim does make sense, kinda, but does not make pretty graphs and does make it a PITA for short hard efforts. The lag on the up is possibly slightly less annoying than the bottom falling out on the drop to the rest phase.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2019, 10:00:58 pm

That picture looks like the white line (cadence?) is rising up into the interval. I find that if I spin up as the the interval starts then it gets really confused and will let the resistance stay low because it is seeing the increase in cadence as the start of a power spike.  I had loads of strange behaviour when I started because I was used to trying to achieve the power changes with my legs/gears. I'm finding it much better now I just try to keep my cadence the same and let the erg deal with changing the resistance to correct the power.

That is what I am experiencing. The trainerroad commentary was actually avoiding me to do that, increase cadence just before the start of the interval. But I found that if you increase cadence the resistance goes down although the trainer power measurement goes up. Next time I'll try not increasing cadence.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 January, 2019, 12:45:55 pm
Trainerroad support has told me that they find the Tacx Vortex doesn't work very well with powermatch...

Otherwise, I've just abandoned a workout a third of the way in.  I was finding it a bit tough, not sure why.  Also I was under time pressure as I have something at 1pm and had a phone call as I was about to start.  Then I knocked another bike over when reaching for my towel, so stopped to pick it up.  Re-started but the combination of all that meant I really didn't feel up to it, so decided I'd stop to make sure I'm on top form for the next one on Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 25 January, 2019, 01:12:11 pm
I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?
I don't know what app you are using, but the key I've found is to be spinning at a high cadence (>95 rpm) in the 10 seconds before the high power interval starts. If I do that (TR with Tacx Bushido Smart) then the second the interval starts the resistance spikes, but it settles down very quickly. If I'm not paying attention or spinning really slowly for some reason, then the resistance flies up, I can't maintain the low rpm and as I drop the rpm the resistance gets worse and it's a downward spiral.
Apologies if that's teaching anyone to suck eggs - I'm new to erg mode too. ;)

That's a good tip but it's not the start of the interval I get the problem, it was around 2-3 minutes in (in a 4' interval). Sort of solved now by using a bigger gear so there is more inertia in the flywheel and a slight easing therefore doesn't descend into the Spiral of Death. A good analogy I heard (the Shane Miller video I think) was it's like stepping off the gas on the flat to tighten a shoe strap compared to doing that while going up a steep hill.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 25 January, 2019, 01:37:16 pm
I find there's a balance between a big enough gear to provide some flywheel, and a small enough gear that you can get down to ~100W. 50x22 makes this just about doable, any higher than that and I find that I can't get the power low enough.
Today's workout was OK - I didn't have enough time for the whole thing, so I skipped the penultimate set (and a bit of rest time). Next time I'll try to drop a bit of rest between each interval. I looked up the -1 version, but that had a ramp up and ramp down without the minute at 105% of FTP, and I wanted to accumulate time above FTP as well as ramping up and down. I also put it to 101% (didn't want to push it so high that the "under" was too high).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48900686-avalanche-spire-1

I've got one more workout left before a rest week. It's a 3x20 at 95%, so it's going to be a test of mentality above anything else I think. I'm definitely more capable than I was at the start of the build, but I'm looking forward to the rest week, so I think It's come at the right time. I usually skip Tuesday, and pick a random ride on Thursday - I might even see what Baxter is like in erg mode. I'm curious to see what the Ramp is going to tell me in 10 days...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 25 January, 2019, 02:14:06 pm
2-3 minutes is apparently the best recovery period for these sort of intervals, with no benefit beyond 3’. (No doubt someone will be along to pick me up on this asking for citations :-* )

A look at your HR or W’ balance tracks will give you a good time insight as whether to try 2, 2.5, or 3’ recovery periods.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 25 January, 2019, 02:31:27 pm
I've no idea what W' is! :) My HR is down in the low 100s after 2 minutes, and ends up around 100 before I start the next interval after 4 minutes. So I could easily lop 1 minute off the recovery period - if I was being ambitious then 2. I'll try it next time I end up time crunched on one of these rides - thanks.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 25 January, 2019, 03:08:43 pm
2-3 minutes is apparently the best recovery period for these sort of intervals, with no benefit beyond 3’. (No doubt someone will be along to pick me up on this asking for citations :-* )

A look at your HR or W’ balance tracks will give you a good time insight as whether to try 2, 2.5, or 3’ recovery periods.

Trevor
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 25 January, 2019, 07:22:08 pm
Depends on what you are trying to improve.  Shorter rest intervals can improve your body's ability to process the chemicals still in your blood stream from the high intensity intervals. Also depends what intensity intervals you are doing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 25 January, 2019, 08:45:01 pm
My bloke is quite traditional.  You start out with a session and, over the course of the block, the reps lengthen and the recoveries shorten.

This week has been moved around a bit by real life.  Delaying one day has meant that the hard Thu session has only just been done and I feel a bit sick.  Tomorrow’s early session and longer road ride may prove a little interesting.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 January, 2019, 08:47:13 pm
I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 25 January, 2019, 09:45:14 pm
I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

There’s a few things I still want to achieve in TTs.  I enjoy the rush but the work getting there may become unsustainable.  That and I’m 46 on Sunday and there’s a chance I’m past it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 January, 2019, 10:51:09 pm
I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

There’s a few things I still want to achieve in TTs.  I enjoy the rush but the work getting there may become unsustainable.  That and I’m 46 on Sunday and there’s a chance I’m past it.

I’m 47 on Monday you prick.  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 January, 2019, 10:55:26 pm
Serious note though. After that tough 5k effort - best I’ve done in over 2 years - I had an hour with a personal trainer and PB’d *good form* deadlift. And I’ve just done an over under workout on TR this evening. It wasn’t so long ago a hard effort like that would have me not doing any useful training the next day. So my recovery has improved markedly in the last few months which bodes well for ramping things up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 25 January, 2019, 11:13:07 pm
I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

There’s a few things I still want to achieve in TTs.  I enjoy the rush but the work getting there may become unsustainable.  That and I’m 46 on Sunday and there’s a chance I’m past it.

I’m 47 on Monday you prick.  ;D

You bloody youngsters.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 26 January, 2019, 09:33:36 am
Bollocks.

TrainerRoad may be Boring. As. Actual. Fuck, but it's never crashed out to desktop during a workout before. Zwift is three for three on that scoreboard now  >:(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 January, 2019, 09:34:48 am
I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

There’s a few things I still want to achieve in TTs.  I enjoy the rush but the work getting there may become unsustainable.  That and I’m 46 on Sunday and there’s a chance I’m past it.

My best season of TTs was when I was 47.  And Wilko set his 24 hour record at that age, his 12 hour at 48.  But worth going for your goals while you still have youth on your side!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 January, 2019, 10:50:18 am
Bollocks.

TrainerRoad may be Boring. As. Actual. Fuck, but it's never crashed out to desktop during a workout before. Zwift is three for three on that scoreboard now  >:(

I’ll have to say I watch all this and would like to maybe try a smart trainer at some point but my biggest technical glitch is when my music crashes. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 January, 2019, 10:53:19 am
I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

There’s a few things I still want to achieve in TTs.  I enjoy the rush but the work getting there may become unsustainable.  That and I’m 46 on Sunday and there’s a chance I’m past it.

My best season of TTs was when I was 47.  And Wilko set his 24 hour record at that age, his 12 hour at 48.  But worth going for your goals while you still have youth on your side!

We’ll see.  Wilko seems able to batter himself more than any rider I’ve seen.  Literally carried off his bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 26 January, 2019, 11:10:58 am
Bollocks.

TrainerRoad may be Boring. As. Actual. Fuck, but it's never crashed out to desktop during a workout before. Zwift is three for three on that scoreboard now  >:(

I think you must not be doing it right and I don't mean TrainerRoad or Zwift.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 January, 2019, 06:07:23 pm
I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

There’s a few things I still want to achieve in TTs.  I enjoy the rush but the work getting there may become unsustainable.  That and I’m 46 on Sunday and there’s a chance I’m past it.

I’m 47 on Monday you prick.  ;D

You bloody youngsters.

Probably about the age you were the first time we crossed paths on an Audax.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 27 January, 2019, 12:23:04 pm
The good news - I'm getting fitter because the overwhelming emotion after 20 minutes at 95% was boredom.  :thumbsup:
The bad news - I flatted about 6 minutes into the second of the 20 minute intervals. This mean that the wheel slipped on the roller and the power went all choppy. I pumped the tyre up and tried again, but it flattened after a couple of minutes.  >:( I killed the workout there.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/49057666-galena-1

This was supposed to be my last hard one before a recovery week. I might try making Tuesday hard, skipping Thursday all together and then doing the scheduled recovery ride on Saturday (or possibly the ramp test - I prefer doing them on weekends rather than at 6am).
Now I've gotta go and fix my p*ncture - how do you get a p*ncture on a Turbo?  :o
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 27 January, 2019, 01:04:21 pm

Now I've gotta go and fix my p*ncture - how do you get a p*ncture on a Turbo?  :o

I was wondering the same thing.  I've got a slow puncture in mine.  goes almost flat in between sessions.  Must get round to fixing it!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 January, 2019, 11:00:33 pm
I'm done with the Sweet Spot Base plans.

Just started Sustained Power Build (mid volume). Working it around rowing training - I seem to be getting much better at recovery so it's easier to keep it going. If I have a TrainerRoad workout that clashes directly with rowing, I ditch the TR workout for the rowing one, in general.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 January, 2019, 09:14:17 am

Now I've gotta go and fix my p*ncture - how do you get a p*ncture on a Turbo?  :o

I was wondering the same thing.  I've got a slow puncture in mine.  goes almost flat in between sessions.  Must get round to fixing it!

I took it off yesterday and the tyre had worn through!  I could easily have had an explosion. 
The bike has a mudguard so hadn't spotted it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 28 January, 2019, 01:25:17 pm

Now I've gotta go and fix my p*ncture - how do you get a p*ncture on a Turbo?  :o

I was wondering the same thing.  I've got a slow puncture in mine.  goes almost flat in between sessions.  Must get round to fixing it!

I took it off yesterday and the tyre had worn through!  I could easily have had an explosion. 
The bike has a mudguard so hadn't spotted it.

I had a flat on the turbo wheel a couple of weeks ago.   That was on a new turbo specific tyre as well.   I never really checked what happened to the old tube as I just stuffed a spare in.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 30 January, 2019, 03:42:48 pm
Another week till I end early base, rest then retest power levels.  Workouts are feeling easier, so confident my power is up, just hope retest proves it.  I am also doing some strength work off the bike for the first time in over a decade.  Hopefully will make a difference.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 30 January, 2019, 05:11:32 pm
Rest day today, then 4 days solid intense work, 3 days rest during a Florence city break, the three weeks more build followed by 2 weeks easy touring Cuba then it's an event every weekend until August although at least half of those will be part of the training process and not tapered for.

Key targets:
BBAR certificate
ToC Chrono qualification
Club 12h record
Finish PBP

Secondary targets:
Sub 2h 50
Sub 22' 10
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 31 January, 2019, 08:29:39 am
Another week till I end early base, rest then retest power levels.  Workouts are feeling easier, so confident my power is up, just hope retest proves it.  I am also doing some strength work off the bike for the first time in over a decade.  Hopefully will make a difference.

I'm at about the same stage.  What strength work are you doing, out of interest?
I'm doing yoga, 1 session a week to work on flexibility.  Have very tight hamstrings, which I am noticing an improvement in after just a few sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 31 January, 2019, 12:16:40 pm
Another week till I end early base, rest then retest power levels.  Workouts are feeling easier, so confident my power is up, just hope retest proves it.  I am also doing some strength work off the bike for the first time in over a decade.  Hopefully will make a difference.

I'm at about the same stage.  What strength work are you doing, out of interest?
I'm doing yoga, 1 session a week to work on flexibility.  Have very tight hamstrings, which I am noticing an improvement in after just a few sessions.

Pilates exercises based around the core, with some stretching after exercise whilst I am still warm (sweating).  The pilates is all very slow and precise but I know it is really working my upper body and holding form can be really hard. 

Alicia Searvogel teached yoga for cyclists (don't know if she still does it) and she swore it was the best way to get faster on the bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 February, 2019, 09:19:49 am
I actually slept OK, so I got up and did my workout this morning (recovery week means I'm not bothered about catching up the ones I missed.
This was the first go on the Bushido with the fixie running 48x24 - it was great.  :thumbsup:
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/49447858-darwin-4
3x10 minutes between 95 and 99% of FTP, with about half of each interval being done in the aero bars. I've been practising getting into turtle position, but I can't hold it for very long (and that's without a helmet). Definitely more work needed on that front. The positive is that the new "Fast Forward" seatpost is great - it moved me a good few cm forwards and it means that the aero position is really comfy. I just need to play around with low/mid/high hands when I can ride outside and do experiments.
Ramp test on Sunday should give me a nice boost - these intervals were doable in aero, and fairly comfortable out of it, so I'm hoping I'll get a bit of a bump in FTP and that will make things a bit of a stretch again. It's a nice feeling going into workouts knowing that you should be able to complete them and work on other things, but at the same time, it's probably not going to make me faster...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 01 February, 2019, 12:01:36 pm
Weight down to 77Kg, so that's 3kg lost since beginning of year.  So power to weight ratio will be up if nothing else.  Cutting the beer down to no more than 1 pint a night outside weekends, and no more than 2 pints on a Saturday, has done that. Three more interval workouts till rest and test week, today is strength work (probably outside but not quite Rocky style). 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 01 February, 2019, 12:09:36 pm
Yoga snowed off today.  Instructor's children's school is closing early :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 01 February, 2019, 12:41:09 pm
January
FTP up 13W (184->197)
Weight down (-6.8kg)
39hr 48m
1019"km" [it's a fairly meaningless number]

Happy with that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 01 February, 2019, 01:00:29 pm
that's impressive, fboab!

i didn't have the energy for a full session of over-unders (3×16min) and managed to do one full interval and two other half way through. i am eating loads today and will be attemping the "disaster" workout on tr tomorrow, 4h15min!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 February, 2019, 01:06:30 pm
Watts up 7%, weight down significantly, that's a hell of a January fboab.  :thumbsup:

Zigzag - Disaster looks absolutely brutal, why on earth are you doing that?  :o There was some organised "Disaster Day" in December, but I haven't seen anything about doing it this year?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 February, 2019, 01:28:10 pm
Down to 62kg.   Road miles about half of last year's (longest 40 miles) but lots of turbo work.

Racing goals are put back to June/July but I do need to ride a 200k in 5 week's time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 February, 2019, 01:35:22 pm
Disaster seems aptly named.

I've had static weight over January; I'm around 82.5kg. FTP test mid-January was 239W; up from 236W early Dec. I think if I retested now I'd see >240. Getting closer to 3W/kg. Upper body weight I've gained doing rowing is not helping that ratio.

I think 3.25W/kg is a realistic goal for PBP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 01 February, 2019, 02:49:31 pm


Zigzag - Disaster looks absolutely brutal, why on earth are you doing that?  :o There was some organised "Disaster Day" in December, but I haven't seen anything about doing it this year?

i haven't been doing any club rides lately as they weren't on because of weather, so i thought i'll try this as a substitute. club rides were quite punchy too and i used to come back home with an empty tank. i'll see how this workout compares.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 01 February, 2019, 04:23:34 pm
January
FTP up 13W (184->197)
Weight down (-6.8kg)
39hr 48m
1019"km" [it's a fairly meaningless number]

Happy with that.

Excellent progress.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 02 February, 2019, 04:10:43 pm
so... yes, the "disaster" workout was tough, but not too dissimilar from our weekly club rides. i've only had to backpedal on the penultimate spikey interval, otherwise managed to do the workout on default suggested intensity. won't be repeating it any time soon though!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/a6150d87b2325ffd62178bdd4d8fe51d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/1f97c066a59976e465a18cfa71a7fe1e.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 02 February, 2019, 04:43:09 pm
Just low intensity work on a cycle greenway for me today.  Hill walking tomorrow then back on intervals on Monday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 02 February, 2019, 07:28:39 pm
so... yes, the "disaster" workout was tough, but not too dissimilar from our weekly club rides. i've only had to backpedal on the penultimate spikey interval, otherwise managed to do the workout on default suggested intensity. won't be repeating it any time soon though!

Well done!
Rather you than me
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 February, 2019, 07:30:56 pm
This morning 5k effort at rowing club before breakfast. Fastest I’ve done in 4.5 years. This evening 4x5m at 105% in TrainerRoad. Hungry!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 February, 2019, 02:23:51 pm
Everyone seems to be going great guns.  :thumbsup:

I did a ramp test today and was a bit disappointed.  I had been crushing the workouts for the last couple of weeks of sustained power build with my FTP set to 240 (though I had tested lower last time after quitting at the end), so I thought that I would get a big power bump. I punctured last week though, and I switched to the fixie on the trainer - that seemed like it was going pretty well, but I'd not done a VO2 max ride on that bike.
Anyway, I got a suggested new FTP of: 240. :(
It was really cold, which can't have helped and meant I had to wrap my hands in the hats I had lying on my trainer table! The metallic taste in the mouth and wobbly legs (and max HR) says I got it all out, but too many rpm at the end - at 92 maybe could have gone another step. I guess I'll leave my FTP at 240, though if I need to put the intensity up each ride for a week then I'll definitely bump it up.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/49619141-ramp-test

Oh yeah, and for the first time I tried music at the end. I figured Rage against the Machine might be appropriate, but I should really have used Take The Power Back. The chorus of Bombtrack being mainly focused on things burning didn't help! :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 February, 2019, 02:28:14 pm
I have a workout playlist for hour long efforts which times Wake Up for
final interval. Often helps a lot.

Re your ramp test - gotta be fresh. My rowing 5k improved vs two weeks ago because I’d tapered midweek expecting to race Wycliffe Head which was cancelled.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 February, 2019, 06:24:24 pm
Oh yeah, and for the first time I tried music at the end. I figured Rage against the Machine might be appropriate, but I should really have used Take The Power Back. The chorus of Bombtrack being mainly focused on things burning didn't help! :)

Oh that’s brilliant.   For most training I stick to EDM, but hard intervals require a bit of angry guitar music.

There’s some RATM in there.

I used an Amazon playlist a few weeks back which inexplicably went to Meatloaf part way through.  Put me right off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 03 February, 2019, 07:18:28 pm
800ish TSS last week. Ugh.

Easier week required this week. It takes me longer to recover now I'm old.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 February, 2019, 09:35:34 am
Can anyone recommend a heart rate monitor?

I have used a succession of Garmin ones over the last 6-7 years, hard and soft strap versions, and I find they all stop reading after a certain time, usually related to wind and what I am wearing. I've tried ultrasound gel but it only buys a little more time.

For example on yesterday's intervals it stopped reading after 20 minutes or so.

I had given up bothering with heart rate in recent years but, since having a bypass last year, I have got interested in it again, so would like a better option.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 04 February, 2019, 10:20:08 am
Bluetooth or ANT+?

I use a Garmin softstrap on ANT+. Works fine.

GPLama and DC Rainmaker both rate the Wahoo Tickr/Tickr X; which supports both BTE and ANT+.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Scrantaj on 04 February, 2019, 10:39:18 am
Can anyone recommend a heart rate monitor?

I have used a succession of Garmon ones over the last 6-7 years, hard and soft strap versions, and I find they all stop reading after a certain time, usually related to wind and what I am wearing. I've tried ultrasound gel but it only buys a little more time.

For example on yesterday's intervals it stopped reading after 20 minutes or so.

I had given up bothering with heart rate in recent years but, since having a bypass last year, I have got interested in it again, so would like a better option.

I've got a Garmin Softstrap (Ant+) and a Wahoo Tickr(BT) that are both a few years old now and both can play up after being used for a few months without a good clean.  Sticking the straps throught the wash with the rest of the kit seems to sort them out. 

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 04 February, 2019, 10:40:40 am
it's usually the strap that fails, i replace mine roughly once a year.

+1 for tickr/tickr x
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 February, 2019, 11:00:02 am
Thanks, ordered a Tickr.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 04 February, 2019, 05:36:12 pm
You could try changing the battery or tightening the strap.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 February, 2019, 05:52:22 pm
On each of the ones that I have tried all sorts of things with over the last five years...?
Done all of that, and more!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 04 February, 2019, 05:58:55 pm
Did today's session too soon after lunch, not the best move.  Couple of more days then I enter my rest and test week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 February, 2019, 10:06:44 am
Bah and double Bah!

I figured I'd do a 20 minute FTP test as my workout this morning - I was convinced I'd managed to under test in the Ramp test on Sunday. All going swimmingly until I got to the leg clearing bit, when the resistance just died away. I thought it was an issue with my turbo, and re-calibrated, fiddled about a bit, then realised it was in resistance mode and put it back into Erg mode. At this point it made me do 400W!  :o I can't do that for 5 minutes before a 20 minute test.
Eventually I decided I would put it back into resistance mode and fiddle with it and wait and see. It got to the rest period and went back into erg mode and worked properly, and I realised that TR must have put it into resistance mode so I could control the resistance and spin. Sigh.
I decided to the the 20 minute test again. I figured I could get a 4 or 5 % bump in FTP, so I put the intensity up to 104% in the app. Then, when the 20 minute period started it said I needed to do 254W, so I fiddled with the resistance slightly so I could do around there. I worked hard, but I got to the end with some juice left and hammered the last minute. The average for the interval was 254W, so bang on target. My new FTP is 241W. 241W.  That's right, I put the intensity up 104% and it didn't change my target power, so I put myself through all this, and the only reason why my FTP changed at all is that I smashed the last minute. FFFFS.
Link: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/49786785-20-minute-ftp-test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bernster on 05 February, 2019, 02:13:08 pm
I've arrived at a similar problem with my (non-smart) trainer using TrainerRoad - I seem to not be able to do ramp tests well, or at least well enough to arrive at an FTP figure which when accepted provides taxing enough training rides in the base and build plans. I wonder whether TrainerRoad's virtual power curve for my trainer overestimates at low power and underestimates at higher power (this would tie in well with the fact that I really struggle to complete VO2max sessions, but find myself upping the intensity for FTP and sub-FTP sessions.

It might be that I'm just bad at the psychological aspect of the ramp test, specifically that they're open ended - at least with a 20 minute FTP test, there's a defined end point, which I can mentally work towards. With a ramp test, even if I force myself through one step, there's always another one, and then another one, so I think I end up quitting early for that reason.

I'm going back to 20 minute tests as my chosen measure of FTP, but having said that I won't always accept the figure it spits out as gospel, unless it aligns with my estimated FTP based on how I finished the previous training plan i.e. if I finish a training plan at a given FTP, and feel I have another 10 or 20 more watts in the tank, then unless the 20 minute test indicates that I'm 20 watts up, I will probably manually set my FTP to FTP+20 and go from there. My reasoning is that there might be plenty of factors which adversely affect an FTP test, and I know from using TrainerRoad for a few years now to trust my feel on whether a workout is too easy, too hard, or about right based on my FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 February, 2019, 02:18:20 pm
I’ve used only the ramp test for the past year or so. It’s possible that the high end requirement of the 1 minute power doesn’t map well to sustainable power. The last 2-3 minutes are pretty horrible in a way that always surprises me.

However I’ve done two rowing 5k tests recently which are approaching 20 minute efforts. I would say that’s about 5 minutes of ok and 14.5 minutes of regretting your life choices. Grim.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 05 February, 2019, 04:26:02 pm
Right last session done and rest and test week starts tomorrow.   My resting heart rate has dropped 7 beats since beginning of Jan and workouts have been felling easier, so signs are good.  Hope my tests when rested concur. Next phase late base.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 February, 2019, 04:29:10 pm
I've used the ramp test since it came out and was called Ramp Test X, but on a geared bike and a dumb trainer (with power from pedals). It seemed to give me a sensible FTP that I could just about handle the workouts from, but I always felt it should be better on an erg, as the last couple of steps when you are dying a slow death always seemed to fall into a gearing black hole!
Given I was completing the workouts in the first half of sustained power build with a little to spare at 240, I'm gonna manually set it to 245 and see how the other 2 workouts go this week.  If they are good and I want to turn the intensity up then I will give it a little boost for next week.
One of the good things about having the TT bike on the turbo is that for warmup and cool down I can get in the aero bars and practise turtling - no time is wasted. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 07 February, 2019, 01:37:39 pm
I need to work on sustained power. I can do 715w in a Zwift sprint, but my FTP (as measured just 15 minutes ago) is still sub-200, which is shite. So I started the Sustained Power Build plan on TR.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 February, 2019, 01:40:13 pm
More supra-threshold intervals today.  My legs were not impressed at getting up early and didn't want to co-operate. I skipped one interval, but completed 4 (some of each in aero), so that's not too bad. Much of the stopping was down to me fiddling with my position - need to go back to the fitter now I have my forward seatpost.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/49942701-washington-4
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 February, 2019, 02:07:45 pm
I need to work on sustained power. I can do 715w in a Zwift sprint, but my FTP (as measured just 15 minutes ago) is still sub-200, which is shite. So I started the Sustained Power Build plan on TR.

I was <220W in February 2015 and it was fine. >250W by PBP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 09 February, 2019, 11:54:41 am
Holy Crap. Mount Goode on TR. My FTP is 196, and it reckons 3x15min intervals of 194 are sweet spot? I can't do that, I'll have an infarction!

I must have missed the "I'm old and have COPD" button in my settings somewhere.  ::-)

I managed one interval. That's Goode [sic] enough for me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 09 February, 2019, 12:36:22 pm
FTP test this morning.   I am now up to 218.7 from 199.3 on Dec 30th;  So an increase of 9.7%. Over the same period my weight has dropped from 80kg to 77kg.  So am now at 2.86 W / kg.  Might have to revise my 3W / kg target for PBP, maybe I need to aim for something higher.

What is interesting is that I have not done any workouts around FTP during this early base period.  It has either been aerobic threshold (low intensity long duration) or aerobic capacity (VO2 max) low dose intervals or strength work. Late base, starting Monday I begin introducing lactate threshold intervals.  One of the most enlightening things of this structured training (this is the start of my second year) is understanding how I respond to the training.

Worst bit of FTP test other than doing it, is waiting for it to tell me if my FTP has improved. I cycle on drops with head down whilst doing it.

So far, so good.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 February, 2019, 05:23:13 pm
Holy Crap. Mount Goode on TR. My FTP is 196, and it reckons 3x15min intervals of 194 are sweet spot? I can't do that, I'll have an infarction!

I must have missed the "I'm old and have COPD" button in my settings somewhere.  ::-)

I managed one interval. That's Goode [sic] enough for me.

It's a threshold workout, that's why it'a not sweet-spot. 3x15 minutes at 97-99% FTP.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 09 February, 2019, 05:53:05 pm
Holy Crap. Mount Goode on TR. My FTP is 196, and it reckons 3x15min intervals of 194 are sweet spot? I can't do that, I'll have an infarction!

I must have missed the "I'm old and have COPD" button in my settings somewhere.  ::-)

I managed one interval. That's Goode [sic] enough for me.

It's a threshold workout, that's why it'a not sweet-spot. 3x15 minutes at 97-99% FTP.

It's an enormous leap up from base is what it is  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 09 February, 2019, 06:43:48 pm
Yesterday was first day back from a 5 day city break, built in as a rest week but ended up as a significant strength build climbing lots and lots of steps, 414 in one Campanile alone!

Plan was a mid effort hour to prep for a new FTP test today but afterwards I started feeling a bit off colour with early flu like symptoms. Felt not too bad this morning so did just 40' building the effort as I went. All being well I'll attempt the test tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 February, 2019, 09:26:53 pm
General p1ssing around at Canter Parcs for a couple of days.   Given I managed an hour before we set off it should only be 3 days off, then some solid work up to Easter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 February, 2019, 09:34:21 pm
4x5m 108% just completed. That’s on top of an hour on the rowing machine at the rowing club gym - zone 2 with 1-minute bursts of 5k race pace every 6th minute.

Ability to double stack like this is comforting. And I did deadlifts yesterday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 09 February, 2019, 11:46:07 pm

It's an enormous leap up from base is what it is  ;D

I heard the expression

Base is training so you are ready to train, build is specific  training for your event(s).

So cut your base training short and you may not be ready for the training intensity / duration combinations in build.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 10 February, 2019, 12:05:46 am
Simon called it right - I picked a plan that focuses on threshold, not sweet-spot. I've corrected it now.

3x15m @>95%? I don't hate myself enough for that  :D.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 10 February, 2019, 03:12:25 pm
3x15m @>95%? I don't hate myself enough for that  :D.

how about 60m at 100% then? in theory it should be doable, but i can't really see myself suffering that much, even with a coach shouting in my ear and pom pom dancers in the front..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 10 February, 2019, 03:15:42 pm
3x15m @>95%? I don't hate myself enough for that  :D.

how about 60m at 100% then? in theory it should be doable, but i can't really see myself suffering that much, even with a coach shouting in my ear and pom pom dancers in the front..

Well, quite! The fact that I can't do repeated 15m intervals of my FTP suggests it's set too high. I'll leave it for now - if I have trouble with sweet-spot too, I'll retest it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 February, 2019, 03:41:19 pm
Simon called it right - I picked a plan that focuses on threshold, not sweet-spot. I've corrected it now.

3x15m @>95%? I don't hate myself enough for that  :D.

Yup - standard progression for PBP is probably:

Base: Sweet Spot Base I & II
Build: Sustained Power Build
Speciality: Century*

* There's no ultra-whatever plan; this is the closest match.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 February, 2019, 03:43:02 pm
The idea that threshold should be defined as hour power is controversial.

Most people should be able to hold it for somewhere in the range of 20-40 minutes. A 3x15m workout is hard but not impossible.

I find that the sweet-spot and higher work requires me to be well recovered. Not eating enough, especially carbs, and I'm not finishing them.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 10 February, 2019, 04:17:50 pm
I find that the sweet-spot and higher work requires me to be well recovered. Not eating enough, especially carbs, and I'm not finishing them.

That was my other thought -I probably shouldn't have tried it fasted, nor immediately following a previous indoor ride, albeit an easy one.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 February, 2019, 04:24:30 pm
I find that the sweet-spot and higher work requires me to be well recovered. Not eating enough, especially carbs, and I'm not finishing them.

That was my other thought -I probably shouldn't have tried it fasted, nor immediately following a previous indoor ride, albeit an easy one.

Nailed it.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 February, 2019, 04:50:20 pm
4x15 minutes at >95% FTP hurts.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/50196271-fish-2
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 10 February, 2019, 04:50:27 pm


We're ketonauts. He should be able to do everything fasted.
even with a coach shouting in my ear and pom pom dancers in the front..
I don't think it's pom pom dancers I need. I was doing a ride the other day and the conversation turned to favourite chocolate. I haven't had "any* this year, and the mere mention of Terry's Chocolate Orange had me surging off the front of the group with a 20W power boost.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 10 February, 2019, 04:55:23 pm


We're ketonauts. He should be able to do everything fasted.


#stokerwhippin
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 10 February, 2019, 05:12:22 pm
What do people mean when they say fasted?

If I ride in the morning it will be 12 hours or more since I have eaten (don't have breakfast except weekends). If I ride in the evening it will be 6-8 hours since I have eaten.  Never called it fasted riding as it is just what I have always done as an adult.

Is fasted more like 24 hours since eating?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 10 February, 2019, 06:12:32 pm
I find that the sweet-spot and higher work requires me to be well recovered. Not eating enough, especially carbs, and I'm not finishing them.

That was my other thought -I probably shouldn't have tried it fasted, nor immediately following a previous indoor ride, albeit an easy one.

You went to do an anaerobic effort in a fasted state?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 10 February, 2019, 08:49:58 pm
I find that the sweet-spot and higher work requires me to be well recovered. Not eating enough, especially carbs, and I'm not finishing them.

That was my other thought -I probably shouldn't have tried it fasted, nor immediately following a previous indoor ride, albeit an easy one.

You went to do an anaerobic effort in a fasted state?

Yeah - I pressed the wrong button and signed up to Build not Base, so got threshold not sweet-spot. SS I can do fasted - but not threshold it would seem. Figures.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 10 February, 2019, 09:02:32 pm
I don’t follow a Keto diet, tending to just monitor weight and keep it in a band.  The last 2 Winters I have struggled to complete the harder sessions around this time of year when my weight has dipped.  I was informed that threshold efforts and up are largely carb fuelled and I was running low on fuel.

At that stage I was riding home from work for an hour and then getting on the turbo, having dinner about 8pm.   I now have a snack mid afternoon and a gel before the turbo work.   Makes the harder sessions more manageable for me anyway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 February, 2019, 09:18:31 pm
I’ve found it essential to eat something mid afternoon as it’s often 7-8 hours after lunchtime when I can train. One off workouts fine but training day after day it gets harder.

Just done 30x2 at 85% to round off the week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 February, 2019, 09:05:50 am
I can't do the super hard efforts before breakfast.  If I have something (even just half a banana) before then they become much more manageable. I suspect I'm much more carb dependant than most, because I tend to do shorter rides (and training), so I work with that to be able to train as effectively as I can.
My legs hurt today after yesterday's 4x15. I have Dade +1 (9 x 2.5 minute bursts of VO2 max) tomorrow - wonder how they will deal with that!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 February, 2019, 09:28:15 am
Nearly 9h of training last week between rowing cycling and weights. TR has Monday off but I do not. Back at the rowing club for erg or weights (river too high) tonight.  :-\
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 February, 2019, 10:19:13 am
Nearly 9h of training last week between rowing cycling and weights. TR has Monday off but I do not. Back at the rowing club for erg or weights (river too high) tonight.  :-\
That is high volume, given the intensity for each activity. How are you finding it? From your posts here it seems you are making good gains, but I know if I tried to do that then I'd just break!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 11 February, 2019, 10:23:00 am
I do intermittent fasting so generally I only eat between noon and about 7pm. I get better results (higher watts for longer) when I train in the evening, but I'll still do anaerobic efforts in the morning.
It's supposed to be hard. You can't develop the ability to do it without, erm, doing it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 February, 2019, 10:52:19 am
I have to be at the rowing club for 7:45 and this means no time for a real breakfast. So I often end up doing 2.5 hours on the water and then eat. I do have coffee and sometimes I’ll have an energy drink. You can’t drink while rowing though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 12 February, 2019, 01:18:06 pm
My legs hurt today after yesterday's 4x15. I have Dade +1 (9 x 2.5 minute bursts of VO2 max) tomorrow - wonder how they will deal with that!
Well that went well. Had an event where I had loads of standing around and ~9000 steps yesterday. Didn't sleep well at all. I was very tempted to skip it and just stay in bed, but I can't train tomorrow because of a work thing, so I set the alarm for a bit later than normal, got up, and did a couple of the VO2 intervals. That was one of my resolutions this year - if I can't do the scheduled workout, at least do something.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/50329594-dade

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 12 February, 2019, 08:26:58 pm
I was very tempted to skip it and just stay in bed, but I can't train tomorrow because of a work thing, so I set the alarm for a bit later than normal, got up, and did a couple of the VO2 intervals. That was one of my resolutions this year - if I can't do the scheduled workout, at least do something.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/50329594-dade

I think this is quite important for those of us with jobs still. (I am quite jealous of pedal castro!)  Anything is better than nothing
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 February, 2019, 09:40:50 pm
I like it when I think I'm fatigued and a workout looks scary at the best of times and it's still completed on target.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/50379777-bashful-6
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 February, 2019, 07:21:21 pm
That's very impressive.  The front 2/3rds looks really hard (and the last 3rd really boring!).
If you can nail that when fatigued, then after a rest week your FTP is gonna get a nice jump.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 13 February, 2019, 08:49:05 pm
Completed every session I have been given since I started back in November right up until tonight.   Failed the last 3min VO2max rep.   I’ve always hated top end work and this was the first one for ages.   Bollocks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 February, 2019, 08:07:56 am
Completed every session I have been given since I started back in November right up until tonight.   Failed the last 3min VO2max rep.   I’ve always hated top end work and this was the first one for ages.   Bollocks.

I'm new to this so don't claim any great knowledge.  But isn't that a good thing?  If they were always achievable, isn't it likely that they were a bit too easy and you were not getting maximum training benefit.  Don't you need the odd one to be too hard to know that the other 9x% are hard enough?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 14 February, 2019, 09:54:23 am
Completed every session I have been given since I started back in November right up until tonight.   Failed the last 3min VO2max rep.   I’ve always hated top end work and this was the first one for ages.   Bollocks.

I'm new to this so don't claim any great knowledge.  But isn't that a good thing?  If they were always achievable, isn't it likely that they were a bit too easy and you were not getting maximum training benefit.  Don't you need the odd one to be too hard to know that the other 9x% are hard enough?

Yeah, suppose so.   This week has seen a reduction in volume but an increase in intensity.   I normally do a turbo session Tue/Thu but had to do Tue/Wed this week.   I suspect that with the additional day of recovery I would be able to handle the session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 14 February, 2019, 10:43:56 am
I did 5 x 3 min VO2 max , 3 min recovery on Monday.  I was due to do lactate threshold yesterday but my HRV App said I needed active recovery.  Reflected how I felt, today it said go for it as I had recovered, and was able to complete my lactate threshold intervals.  So in my view depends on reason for the failure, failure because you are not recovered from previous workout is not necessarily good. Plus physiologically not completing a workout does not make you feel good.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 February, 2019, 12:09:55 pm
If you are failing on the last interval of a set though, you have done almost the whole workout as prescribed. External factors have to be taken into account, especially if you have cut your recovery time from the previous workout.
If I'm doing Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday intervals, the plan calls for the VO2 Max stuff to be on Tuesday. If I do the big workout on Sunday, and especially if I have something else on the Monday, I really struggle - I think the extra rest makes a huge amount of difference to these sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 February, 2019, 04:59:45 pm
The psychology of it is interesting.  Definitely not good to fail many as you would lose confidence.  But if you fail the odd one, that reinforces the belief that they are hard, hence succeeding in doing them is worth more than if you believed that they were easy, or just hard-ish.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 14 February, 2019, 07:29:41 pm
Old school method of intervals was keep doing them until your time for a set course (no power meters then) increased by 10% or some other predetermined value, so basically keep going until failure.

My cold seemed to be better today so I did low cadence high torque efforts to keep heart rate low but making the session useful. Rest tomorrow and a 200km on Saturday hopefully.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 14 February, 2019, 07:34:10 pm
I was very tempted to skip it and just stay in bed, but I can't train tomorrow because of a work thing, so I set the alarm for a bit later than normal, got up, and did a couple of the VO2 intervals. That was one of my resolutions this year - if I can't do the scheduled workout, at least do something.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/50329594-dade

I think this is quite important for those of us with jobs still. (I am quite jealous of pedal castro!)  Anything is better than nothing

I thought you had retired!  ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 February, 2019, 07:46:57 pm
I'm not doing tonight's workout, so I can't fail.  ::-)

Would be able to but we are doing an important piece on the water at the rowing club on Saturday and I've decided to rest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 14 February, 2019, 07:54:08 pm
I was very tempted to skip it and just stay in bed, but I can't train tomorrow because of a work thing, so I set the alarm for a bit later than normal, got up, and did a couple of the VO2 intervals. That was one of my resolutions this year - if I can't do the scheduled workout, at least do something.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/50329594-dade

I think this is quite important for those of us with jobs still. (I am quite jealous of pedal castro!)  Anything is better than nothing

I thought you had retired!  ;)

I did retire and return.  But seem to be working harder now than before I retired!!  The problem is that I have 2-3 projects I need to keep pushing to the point of being self sustaining.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 14 February, 2019, 10:31:06 pm
I changed a few things this week as we moved onto the next block of training after a couple of rare days off.   My coach also chose this week to introduce some high intensity work.  I either pushed the early intervals too hard or I wasn’t quite ready for the higher end work.   Something wasn’t right and I couldn’t sustain the effort and my HR was roofing.

I’m back to a more normal pattern next week and can now up the road miles which should help my mood.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 February, 2019, 08:54:22 am
This week has been a bit of a mess.  Loads of time in the car on Wednesday, an event with loads of standing up yesterday, and my back and hamstring (it's always the right lower back and left hamstring) were tight this morning. I figured I'd give it a go, got off and stretched after the first interval, but it wasn't getting any better, even after turning down the intensity, so I pulled the plug and did some stretching instead. There are only 4 hard workouts left in Build now, and it feels a bit like when I should be making the biggest improvements I'm just not getting it done, so it's really annoying.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/50558257-mt-hale-2

PS and I managed to leave the front tyre of my road bike touching the back tyre of the trainer bike after moving it to get something from behind it yesterday. I found out when there was a strange noise and a loud hissing! :( I think I've ridden outside on that tyre once, and indoors it stays still, so it's probably the fewest miles I've ever covered on a tyre before the first puncture! :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 16 February, 2019, 01:58:34 pm
5hr road ride this morning.  Zone 2 for 4hrs then gentle.  85miles covered on rolling roads.

Not ridden more than 2hrs since last October so really pleased.   Hand is sore but it will handle 200k.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 16 February, 2019, 02:30:25 pm
5hr road ride this morning.  Zone 2 for 4hrs then gentle.  85miles covered on rolling roads.

Not ridden more than 2hrs since last October so really pleased.   Hand is sore but it will handle 200k.


I am similarly lacking long rides over winter. Think my longest is about four hours. I am out tomorrow on a long ride to address that. Will be almost 200km but not doing as Audax so I can address lack of distance without needing to pass through controls or obey any time limits if I decide on pub stop etc.

Thought I had best try some Audax type distance before I reach my PBP qualifiers.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 16 February, 2019, 04:03:39 pm
I finished Sweet Spot Base 2 low vol, replacing the final workout Leconte with a similar intensity short but hard real ride, my first one outdoors for 6 months! Felt fine, although neck's a bit sore as on the trainer I've a) no helmet and b) look down-ish at a bar-mounted screen rather than forward.

FTP-wise in TR, I've lowered it slightly from my last test as it felt a little too high in the past couple of weeks. Also, I won't be doing a ramp test to kick off Sustained Power Build and will play it by ear, adjusting upwards if workouts eventually begin to feel a little too "easy".

The aim, weather permitting, is to slot in a real ride per week in addition to the 3 scheduled workouts (low-volume plan), with any additional outdoor rides per week replacing a scheduled workout to ensure volume doesn't suddenly skyrocket but instead builds slowly over the coming months. I've learnt that patience and good recovery is rewarded.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 February, 2019, 08:05:19 pm
3x18 minute intervals at theshold. Completed with only a couple of stops to stretch, so that'd definitely a win. It's going to be tough to do this in aero for 25 minutes at a time, but I guess it's easier outside than on the turbo (lack of flywheel)

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/50704996-mount-goode-2
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 17 February, 2019, 09:00:03 pm
Knocked out a low intensity 200km today. Planned route was shorter but a good run with no mechanicals so decided to extend it at the end, It would have been well within Audax time limits as well. So that has given me a nicer feeling ahead of my first PBP qualifier in a month. Will have easy day tomorrow , just do a bit of walking, then will hit the intervals again on Tuesday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 18 February, 2019, 07:21:51 pm
My max HR for 90 minutes of Sweet Spot over & unders was a whopping 152. I used to get higher than that riding to work.
I suspect my (n00b gains) FTP needs adjustment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 19 February, 2019, 10:40:02 pm
Ranp test today and power was up by all of 4 Watts.
a little bit disappointing, but not a disaster, I suppose.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 February, 2019, 10:52:54 pm
Ranp test today and power was up by all of 4 Watts.
a little bit disappointing, but not a disaster, I suppose.

Similar to my results during base. Each step was around 3W.

Ramp test scheduled for Tuesday next wee for me, halfway through build.

I've done base but still a long way out from PBP.

Base - build - build - build - speciality is too much. Suggestion from TR if there is this much time is:

Base - build - base - build - speciality.

I'll need to add up the weeks to see if this is feasible or if it can be made to work with some trimming.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 20 February, 2019, 06:50:09 am
Good to hear that is in the normal range - I didn't know what to expect

I've added up my weeks and I can do base-base-build-speciality with two weeks to spare. 
I expect I'll either lose those to holidays, or else I'll repeat a base / build week somewhere along the way.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 February, 2019, 09:19:53 am
I'm at the end of my build phase now (last week of real work). Today's VO2 Max intervals were OK in terms of aerobic effort, but my back is playing up when I try to maintain the higher power longer than a minute or so. I was hoping to get my FTP boosted up before I get to speciality, but I don't think I'm going to get much of a boost for the last 3 weeks... I did 3 of the 9 VO2 intervals and then quit and did some sweet spot work in the aero position instead. I really need to get my act together and do some core stuff or this is going to have a big impact on my season. :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/50907773-kaiser-2
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 20 February, 2019, 03:33:30 pm
Warm up, 5 x 3 min Vo2 max, 3 min recovery, warm down.  This workout almost killed me last week, seem to have handled it better this week. Still I was so happy when it ticked over to the warm down period.  I am enjoying the cycling podcasts I listen to whilst doing these. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 23 February, 2019, 01:20:15 pm
i had to do a ramp test today, which i kinda did, but couldn't push myself as legs still felt a bit stiff after the 269km on wednesday. i discarded the result and will do a retest in few days time. as i was sat on a turbo anyway, i did a two hour endurance workout (boarstone) to feel less of a failure ;D.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 February, 2019, 02:02:59 pm
Boarstone is my scheduled ride today.

Currently in the process of trying to re-fit the rear calliper but it's time for the rugby. I'm hoping for an outdoor ride later to avoid 2h on the turbo.

I'm doing ramp test on Tuesday, all being well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 23 February, 2019, 04:30:37 pm
Went out for a 100km ride today. Foggy start which cleared mid morning to Spring like conditions.  Hill walk and pub lunch tomorrow then a VO2 max session on turbo on Monday.  Chain has a problem link so will have to sort that out first. Suspect chain needs replacing considering when I bought it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 February, 2019, 05:17:44 pm
Shocking few weeks at work so sacked off the Thu night turbo work, booked Friday off and did 210k round Norfolk in stunning conditions.   The good news is I can still rattle round a 200k at a decent pace with minimal stops and my handle only ached a little at the end.

Did a couple of hours of recovery this morning and I’m now contemplating tomorrow’s planned 2hr turbo session.   Too nice outside, innit ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 23 February, 2019, 08:46:47 pm
Got a rotten cold, skipped Thursdays workout and todays. :( I spent most of my day dozing or wishing I was dozing, so riding a bike is definitely not on the cards for a few more days. By the time I get back on the bike (probably Thursday?) I bet I'll have lost all the gains from the whole build cycle. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 24 February, 2019, 07:39:55 pm
Did the 2hr turbo. Regretted it.  Something not quite right at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 February, 2019, 07:55:39 pm
200km in your legs...?

I had a fairly hard 90 min turbo this morning. Was gong to join club run for a gentle recovery ride afterwards, but legs were feeling it so I rode to the park to play in sand pit with daughter instead.

Good news that your hands is OK for 200km
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 24 February, 2019, 08:32:46 pm
I had a gentle day off between the 2, but you’re probably right.   Expecting a bit too much of myself as usual.   This has been my biggest week since last September.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 February, 2019, 08:34:49 pm
So I got out on the bike today. I was going to do it yesterday but the brake bleeding process was time consuming, so I ended up doing today's 1h30 (Brasstown) yesterday on the turbo as it was dark by the time I was finished.

Today had a few things to get done and then had to transfer various things off my fixie that I'd done the Transporter 200k on in November, and then went out for a couple of hours. That's my first outdoor ride this year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 24 February, 2019, 09:21:37 pm
I thought I'd been slack waiting till last weekend to go outside!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 February, 2019, 10:05:57 pm
I thought I'd been slack waiting till last weekend to go outside!

Yerbut I’ve done loads of rowing on the water in freezing conditions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 February, 2019, 10:41:27 am
GPLama and DC Rainmaker both rate the Wahoo Tickr/Tickr X; which supports both BTE and ANT+.

Thanks for the recommendation: Tickr working well when the Garmin would have failed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 25 February, 2019, 09:06:57 pm
Not done too much training recently, a week of commuting to my Bikeability instructor course, then a day off followed by smashing two hills to take a significant chunk of time off my Strava PBs to take the lead in a local hill climb challenge (http://www.nrtoone.com/strava/hills2018.php).

The leg strength seems to be returning.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 25 February, 2019, 09:32:14 pm
You're smashing it Trev - keep going.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 February, 2019, 08:41:23 pm
Good to hear that is in the normal range - I didn't know what to expect

I've added up my weeks and I can do base-base-build-speciality with two weeks to spare. 
I expect I'll either lose those to holidays, or else I'll repeat a base / build week somewhere along the way.

Ramp test done. +4W. We’re identical FTP increase buddies!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 27 February, 2019, 10:36:42 am
Congratulations on your 4w gain from a month of hard slog!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 27 February, 2019, 05:08:26 pm
After a few months of doing basically nothing & illness, i'm back!

Tried to do an FTP test last week & just didn't have it in me at all.  Last time I tested it was 215, so I've randomly dropped it to 200 for now & will see how the first few weeks of "Sweet Spot Base Mid" goes, so far I've managed the session but pretty sloppy by the end, it's maybe still harder than it should be...

If all else fails, I may have to test in the middle of the base plan.  Either way, by the time the next test workout comes round I should be in mental and physical shape to give it a proper go.

I figure 6 weeks base, 2 weeks holiday, 8 weeks build, 8 weeks speciality, then 2 weeks taper & it'll be PBP  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 27 February, 2019, 09:48:05 pm
Yes, definitely worth throwing in a ramp test once you have been going for a week or two and blown the initial cobwebs off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 27 February, 2019, 10:02:47 pm
I did about four weeks of short turbo sessions to get me used to it again before a FTP test and starting base. Those four weeks certainly helped get me mentally and physically ready for the discipline again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 27 February, 2019, 10:30:42 pm
Enjoyed this podcast with Seiler.

https://www.hmmrmedia.com/2018/02/gaincast-episode-104-polarized-training-with-stephen-seiler/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 28 February, 2019, 07:29:00 am
Block of 3 days done, and feeling sore...

had to drop it to 92% to do the final 12min interval of ‘Donner’.  So today is a rest day, do people recommend that as total rest, or something else to ease my aches?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 28 February, 2019, 09:56:29 am
Block of 3 days done, and feeling sore...

had to drop it to 92% to do the final 12min interval of ‘Donner’.  So today is a rest day, do people recommend that as total rest, or something else to ease my aches?

Rest days I generally go for an easy walk round the local park. A short walk so something around 5km in length.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 28 February, 2019, 09:33:12 pm
January
FTP up 13W (184->197)
Weight down (-6.8kg)
39hr 48m
1019"km" [it's a fairly meaningless number]
February
FTP up 11W (197>208)
Weight down (-2.9kg)
42hr
1061"km" [a few were even outside actual real kilometres]
Given the stress of leaving one job and starting another, and there's only 28 days in Feb, I'm pretty happy with that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 01 March, 2019, 09:50:01 am
Well done!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 01 March, 2019, 01:24:28 pm
Well done!

It's just as well, because - although I started the year OK, my progression since has been total shite. No improvements in FTP, and generally quite disappointing experiences on the turbo. I just had to abandon a 2x20 session two minutes in because I just couldn't be arsed; I just don't hate myself enough to go through pain - and as audax/PBP/endurance is nothing if not self-harm by another name, I'm not feeling at all optimistic at the moment.

Don't tell fboab though...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 March, 2019, 01:52:17 pm
Mmmmm, pain. 

Tomorrow I have two rowing water sessions of around an hour each. Or maybe one water and one gym. I’ll refuse to do the gym and try to grab a single. Then TrainerRoad has me doing Palisade later.

This could be interesting.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 March, 2019, 02:14:53 pm
Well done!

It's just as well, because - although I started the year OK, my progression since has been total shite. No improvements in FTP, and generally quite disappointing experiences on the turbo. I just had to abandon a 2x20 session two minutes in because I just couldn't be arsed; I just don't hate myself enough to go through pain - and as audax/PBP/endurance is nothing if not self-harm by another name, I'm not feeling at all optimistic at the moment.

Don't tell fboab though...

I think when you are hammering yourself on your turbo it is very hard to envisage the enjoyable Summer rides.   My turbo hours have dropped significantly in the last few weeks - going from 12hrs down to about 4hrs over 6 weeks.   The decent weather and some long road rides have really helped.   Commuting mostly in daylight is also of assistance.

I have an easy weekend and then 5 200s in a row through to Easter.   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 01 March, 2019, 05:53:14 pm
Good gains
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 01 March, 2019, 07:12:26 pm
I'd kind of got used to my body responding positively to the annual turn-around at New Year. Not happening this year. I mostly feel like shit on a bike, and not terribly well the rest of the time.

Appointment with the Doc booked.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 03 March, 2019, 12:14:54 pm
Things were less shit on the trainer this morning. I pigged out on beer & carbs made some dietary adjustments yesterday and felt much more "up for it" on the bike, so that's encouraging.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 March, 2019, 08:50:42 pm
Things were less shit on the trainer this morning. I pigged out on beer & carbs made some dietary adjustments yesterday and felt much more "up for it" on the bike, so that's encouraging.

DNF on my 2h sweet-spot workout today.

I'm pretty sure it's because I've not eaten enough.

Friday: bacon and egg roll for Breakfast, lunch was a salad, dinner was spinach and parmesan soup. No training but I did do a 1000 kcal workout on Thursday.

Saturday: up at 6.30am, no time for breakfast, rowing training for about 90 minutes on the water (two times 45m). Just a couple of coffees, and water. Then sitting through an hour presentation, before finally getting something (jacket potato with prawn mayo and a salad) to eat. Home, went for a lie down, slept for 5 hours. Late dinner of beetroot soup, with yoghurt.

Today: lie in, then oats, yoghurt and an apple, and a few coffees. Did my workout with beta fuel. Really tough from about 1h in, stopped at 1h45 so missed 9m of sweet-spot. It could be worse, I did about 90% of the work.

The soups will have had very few calories. Only two meals yesterday as well. Must. Eat. More.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 March, 2019, 11:43:31 am
I got back on the trainer on Sunday after a week and a half off (lurgy, and then work trip). I eased into it with Mount Goode +3, which is a 1.5 hour 4x15 at threshold or thereabouts.  ::-)
My hamstring and lower back tightened up during the intervals, so I  tried dropping the intensity to 95% - that didn't do much so I had a few stops where I got off and stretched. I completed 3 of the 4 intervals and an extended cooldown, so while it's not the desired training effort, it's a good start. However, I really need to sort out my right lower back/ left hamstring.  It's not a problem when doing under 150W, but after a few minutes > 220 then I start to feel it. I had a fit a couple of weeks ago (but the turbo there had little resistance so it was low power), which brought me forward and actually opened up my hip angle slightly, but the saddle is in a very different place to my road bike (in reference to the BB). I knew I should have been doing core and flexibility - now I really need to crack on with it!

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/51668301-mount-goode-3

PS you can see the evolution of the position here:
https://fixedtting.home.blog/2019/02/28/position-adjustment-videos/

I don't think it's extreme, I just think I need to make my back and hamstrings better...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 March, 2019, 12:59:48 pm
I was supposed to ride today, but my back was sore when I woke up, so I did some stretching and exercises instead.
I have the Core Advantage book, so I'm going to try out the beginners plan from that, and see if I can just do Sweet Spot workouts. Hopefully that will mean I can keep my fitness up, and sort out the back issues - I've got a month or 2 before I want to be really shifting on my TTs, so I figure I'm better backing it off now and fixing my back than trying to bash through it. Not happy, but think that's probably sensible.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 05 March, 2019, 04:34:36 pm
Vo2 Max intervals have got easy.  They wiped me out four weeks ago. Recovery and retest next week. Then it will get harder again. Good to know it's not plateauing yet.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 March, 2019, 09:04:21 pm
New sessions this week as part of the next build.   Very short max efforts from a standing start with a minute recovery.   Going from 0 to 170rpm in 5seconds using a middle resistance setting.

Felt fine during the warm down but an hour later I feel a bit peculiar.   I’m sure my coach knows what he’s doing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 06 March, 2019, 08:58:49 am
I've just had almost a week off as we have been to the mother-in-law's in Germany.  First ride back today. 

Was good timing as I picked op some knee damage last week.  I've recently switched saddles (to an ISM) which required a bit of positional adjustment.  TRainerroad got me to do some high-cadence VO2 max intervals last Tuesday and I had pain at the top of my knee afterwards, which I associate with saddle too low or too far forward.  I'll book a bike fit to tweak the saddle position and, in the meantime, stick to sweet spot stuff. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 March, 2019, 09:26:37 am
Tuesdays suck.  :hand:

Good luck with the knee.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 06 March, 2019, 07:04:28 pm
Thanks - knee was fine with 2 hour sweet spot session today (Juneau -1). 
Arse not quite so happy: longest turbo on new ISM saddle - although it was ok for 3 hours on the road last week.  But much less of a concern.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 06 March, 2019, 07:17:39 pm
over-unders* feel fairly comfortable, so will be adding few watts to my ftp manually as i cba to do the ramp test (will do one in three weeks).

*avalanche spire - added 5% to the final interval and still managed ok
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 06 March, 2019, 08:39:05 pm
Knocked out threshold intervals tonight.  My recovery week starts Sunday but have family gathering Sat, so might knock out a last set of Intervals on Friday before entering recovery.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 March, 2019, 01:18:46 pm
I was planning to do a big stretch and then a short workout this morning. Did a short stretch instead - I spent too much time in the car yesterday and really felt it when I woke up. I've got an appointment with a local back guru tomorrow, so hopefully he can release a bit of the tightness and suggest how I can improve it myself - it's really frustrating to have been quite consistent (excluding illness) since September, and then to have my weekly TSS plummet in mid Feb.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 08 March, 2019, 11:13:35 am
This morning, did a series of over and under lactate threshold intervals.  Felt good at the end so rolled it straight into a low dose aerobic capacity workout.  Now heading into a recovery week, to shed some fatigue, with my PBP 200 qualifier at the end of it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 08 March, 2019, 09:43:55 pm
FTP next week and so far I have been doing the 20 minute test.  I have been reading about the ramp test. Does anybody have experience of doing the ramp test instead and any thoughts between the two?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 March, 2019, 08:34:40 am
The below is specific to the testing as done by Trainer Road. Different protocols do different warmups and pre-testing clearouts, so if you are doing it on a different platform, you might find it very differet.  Also, n=1.  ;)

I started using the ramp test last year when it arrived in Beta, and I really liked it. It's much more mindless than the 20 minute test - you just keep to the power until you can't. Also, it's quicker (over in about 25 minutes) and less TSS, so you can either tack on another short workout afterwards, or leave it as a low TSS day.

However, I think it suits people who have less experience or have maybe changed their FTP significantly. You also need to be fuelled and psyched up for the last couple of minutes of suffering - they make a massive difference to the final number. I actually went back to the 20 minute test last time I did one as I've been doing Sustained Power build, and I think I had better endurance near threshold but without the pop at the top end. I also had a couple of ramp tests where I quit before my legs gave up. One significant thing to be aware of with the 20 minute test in TR is that if you stick to the power it sets for you, you get an FTP decrease! You need to set the intensity to 105% or so in order to get the same number as you started with!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 March, 2019, 07:53:46 pm
Have finished with competitive rowing and training for now to focus on the cycling. Haven't cycled since last weekend, did a 5km rowing race today - was supposed to be a 6km event but it was cancelled, so we did our own. Did our fastest time yet, so good to go out on a high. I've not trained since Monday to be fresh for today and that will have helped.

Now I'll have fewer excuses for failing cycling workouts! Starting tomorrow with either an outdoor ride or a sweet-spot effort, dependent on the weather.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 10 March, 2019, 08:48:48 am
I've just abandoned an under /over session shortly after starting s just didn't feel like it and legs were heavy. Am struggling with a cold, which is my excuse, but I probably could have done it if I'd really wanted to but I didn't!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 10 March, 2019, 08:56:58 am
The below is specific to the testing as done by Trainer Road. Different protocols do different warmups and pre-testing clearouts, so if you are doing it on a different platform, you might find it very differet.  Also, n=1.  ;)

I started using the ramp test last year when it arrived in Beta, and I really liked it. It's much more mindless than the 20 minute test - you just keep to the power until you can't. Also, it's quicker (over in about 25 minutes) and less TSS, so you can either tack on another short workout afterwards, or leave it as a low TSS day.

However, I think it suits people who have less experience or have maybe changed their FTP significantly. You also need to be fuelled and psyched up for the last couple of minutes of suffering - they make a massive difference to the final number. I actually went back to the 20 minute test last time I did one as I've been doing Sustained Power build, and I think I had better endurance near threshold but without the pop at the top end. I also had a couple of ramp tests where I quit before my legs gave up. One significant thing to be aware of with the 20 minute test in TR is that if you stick to the power it sets for you, you get an FTP decrease! You need to set the intensity to 105% or so in order to get the same number as you started with!

Interesting. I do the 20 min test on slope mode.  I am not on TR just read about the ramp test in their blog. What are the steps, 10 watts each or more?  Might stick with 20 min test next week but also do a ramp test for comparison.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 10 March, 2019, 09:03:30 am
tr ramp test starts at 46% for 5min, then each step is +6% (52, 58...) a minute long until you pop.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 10 March, 2019, 09:33:42 am
Thanks
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 March, 2019, 01:40:13 pm
Worth noting that the TR 20 minute test includes a 5 minute clearout interval before the 20 minute test. The theory is that it depletes the anaerobic stores so your 20 minute test is just aerobic.  The final FTP value is 90% of the 20 minute average power. For the ramp test, the FTP is 75% of the best 1 minute average power, but you have to follow the steps - if you skip a couple you could probably get a better 1 minute number, but it probably wouldn't be so representative. I think the time you have to hit is 19 and a half minutes - if you go beyond that then you have a higher FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 10 March, 2019, 01:53:03 pm
Hardish 200k yesterday for a range of reasons.  2hr tempo like session planned for this morning.  Managed 90 mins but really stuffed.  I’m supposed to do the same next weekend but I might do the session later in the day for a bit more recovery.  Either that or take the 200k easier.

Off to the cinema to see Captain Marvel and eat chocolate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 March, 2019, 01:59:07 pm
Hardish 200k yesterday for a range of reasons.  2hr tempo like session planned for this morning.  Managed 90 mins but really stuffed.  I’m supposed to do the same next weekend but I might do the session later in the day for a bit more recovery.  Either that or take the 200k easier.

Off to the cinema to see Captain Marvel and eat chocolate.

That seems like a lot to fit in after a 200k.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 10 March, 2019, 05:39:54 pm
Hardish 200k yesterday for a range of reasons.  2hr tempo like session planned for this morning.  Managed 90 mins but really stuffed.  I’m supposed to do the same next weekend but I might do the session later in the day for a bit more recovery.  Either that or take the 200k easier.

Off to the cinema to see Captain Marvel and eat chocolate.

That seems like a lot to fit in after a 200k.

I have come to that conclusion.   Film was good, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 March, 2019, 05:41:04 pm
My back is much improved after being beaten up by a sports massage guy I know on Friday.  Today I did a 30 minute "Zone 2" ride - lots of it spent in the aero bars (I think it might actually be more comfortable there than on the horns). I'm doing a ton of stretching and a little core strength stuff, and I'm going to add in 45 minute easy trainer rides on Tuesday and Thursday (I would normally do an hour - these will be followed by 15 minutes of stretching and core) and see how it goes.  If it goes well, I'll do 75 minutes on Sunday and up the intensity in the following week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 10 March, 2019, 09:14:52 pm
Same 200 as Rob for us. According to Strava, I spent 5h 28m at Tempo. Bloody headwind.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Peat on 14 March, 2019, 08:40:04 am
I have a wheel-on, fluid ergo trainer thing coupled with a power meter.

Tried Zwift for 2 months. Didn't really get on with it. The racing was fun, but the training very meh. I think I was missing alot of the experience by not having a smart trainer.
Just been trying Sufferfest and have gone off that already after 2x sessions. The workouts are really bitty, again i think the lack of smart trainer kills it. Each block is broken up into sub-blocks of 20s or so. It takes me about 15s to workout the correct gear and cadence to get the required power.

So, one left. The one i've suspected i'd like the most. TrainerRoad. We'll see.

tbh, I really enjoy (as much as you can enjoy turbo) the GCN videos on YouTube. Nice instructional vid, decent length blocks, varied. (FREE!) Great.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 14 March, 2019, 09:01:32 am
I have a wheel-on, fluid ergo trainer thing coupled with a power meter.

Tried Zwift for 2 months. Didn't really get on with it. The racing was fun, but the training very meh. I think I was missing alot of the experience by not having a smart trainer.
Just been trying Sufferfest and have gone off that already after 2x sessions. The workouts are really bitty, again i think the lack of smart trainer kills it. Each block is broken up into sub-blocks of 20s or so. It takes me about 15s to workout the correct gear and cadence to get the required power.

So, one left. The one i've suspected i'd like the most. TrainerRoad. We'll see.

tbh, I really enjoy (as much as you can enjoy turbo) the GCN videos on YouTube. Nice instructional vid, decent length blocks, varied. (FREE!) Great.
Have you registered for Trainer Road yet?  If not, then I can send you a referral for a free month. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you the invite.

I like TR. I used to use a dumb trainer with a power meter, but I got a smart trainer (wheel on) secondhand around Christmas. It makes it easier to do steps and spikes consistently, and it means I can run my fixie on there rather than having to use gears, but it's not a quantum leap forwards.
I did a TR ride this morning - part of my return from my back issues.  45 minutes in zone 2 - lots of it in the aero bars. My back, legs, lungs were all good, but my triceps are a bit tight - I think because my arms are quite close together. I'm gonna do 1.25 hours on Sunday, and if I can do that without needing to stretch (today's stretch was just precautionary) then I think I'm good to do sweet spot next week.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/52408610-birch
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 March, 2019, 05:20:02 pm
Hardish 200k yesterday for a range of reasons.  2hr tempo like session planned for this morning.  Managed 90 mins but really stuffed.  I’m supposed to do the same next weekend but I might do the session later in the day for a bit more recovery.  Either that or take the 200k easier.

Similar weekend.  Tough 200 Saturday.  Similar turbo session to last week but done at 3pm instead.  Made it through but my legs are now quite ripped up. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 March, 2019, 08:35:43 pm
I'm wondering if trainerroad is working for me.
I did my first proper road ride for ages on Saturday when I started the Dean. I ended up DNFing but that wasn't a big deal (don't need PBP qual or auk points and have done it load of times before, just didn't fancy the wind getting stronger and rain in the dark).  What bothered me was that, once I'd started and settled into a comfortable pace, I was so much slower than in the past!
Maybe I've lost more power than I realised with not riding as much in the last couple of years, but I have a nagging suspicion that the trainerroad stuff is just a bit too easy, so hasn't done me much good.  I only did 140km on Saturday but I felt a lot more tired from it than I have from the toughest trainerroad sessions
Maybe I just need to get out on my bike a bit more.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 March, 2019, 09:31:30 pm
I'm wondering if trainerroad is working for me.
I did my first proper road ride for ages on Saturday when I started the Dean. I ended up DNFing but that wasn't a big deal (don't need PBP qual or auk points and have done it load of times before, just didn't fancy the wind getting stronger and rain in the dark).  What bothered me was that, once I'd started and settled into a comfortable pace, I was so much slower than in the past!
Maybe I've lost more power than I realised with not riding as much in the last couple of years, but I have a nagging suspicion that the trainerroad stuff is just a bit too easy, so hasn't done me much good.  I only did 140km on Saturday but I felt a lot more tired from it than I have from the toughest trainerroad sessions
Maybe I just need to get out on my bike a bit more.

Whilst a lot of testers can survive on turbo only, Tops as an example, I still believe there is no substitute for decent long road miles.  Apart from a short spell of injury induced turbo time, I’ve always used the turbo for supplementary specific work with the majority of weekly hours on the road.   I have been very surprised by how little prep some ultra racers do in this area.

I think you just need to get a few long rides in once it’s a bit more Spring-like.  Besides, Saturday was a shocking day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 March, 2019, 09:42:46 pm
I agree - some long rides needed.

I was tired after 58km today though I have been feeling under the weather for a few days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Peat on 18 March, 2019, 09:47:30 am
Wasn't all of that 140km into a 40mph headwind though, Frank? Unless you were religiously riding to power, I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of your speed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 March, 2019, 10:07:08 am
The wind this weekend was nuts.

I did another tempo ride on TR as I get back to riding after my back, this time of 1hr 15 minutes).  It was really boring. I much prefer rides with varying hard-easy sections than these ones where you just go quite hard for ages.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/52605200-cumberland-2
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Peat on 18 March, 2019, 10:14:15 am
I was very unaudacious. I binned off the Dean and took an early train to Bristol and bimbled back 130km in Z2 & 3 with a glorious wind assist.
Backed that up with a 3/4 70km on Sunday.

Physio appointments and instruction seem to be working. I experienced no pain this weekend.
I had been suffering with a thoroughly knotted right quad and buttock, which hurt, but also caused me pain in my lower back. Diagnosed as a shortened and inflamed Psoas muscle. Weekly release massage and a program of stretching and cross training (started running) and it's made a word of difference already.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 18 March, 2019, 11:11:26 am
Wasn't all of that 140km into a 40mph headwind though, Frank? Unless you were religiously riding to power, I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of your speed.

No, I turned back after 70km, and I was watching power rather than speed.  Power numbers were low and I knew speed must be because people kept coming past me! 
It was interesting to do some of a familiar route backwards: the climb up the back road to Coombe Hill is very steep, as is Winchcombe from the other side. The wind meant I spun out on the long, slow descents on the way back.  Still hairy riding with the wind though - It was very strong going up Winchcombe from the west and, riding at a very slow speed, I got blown off at one point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 18 March, 2019, 11:14:23 am
Whilst a lot of testers can survive on turbo only, Tops as an example, I still believe there is no substitute for decent long road miles.  Apart from a short spell of injury induced turbo time, I’ve always used the turbo for supplementary specific work with the majority of weekly hours on the road.   I have been very surprised by how little prep some ultra racers do in this area.

I think you just need to get a few long rides in once it’s a bit more Spring-like.  Besides, Saturday was a shocking day.

Yes, that's what I am starting to think.  Should be possible following a bit of negotiation with my wife (she is very supportive so I am lucky in that respect!)
I also think that people like Tops (and maybe you to an extent from some of your descriptions) are able to push themselves much harder on the turbo than I am willing to.  Also using erg mode means that when I find something a bit easy / having a good day, there isn't a way to put a bit more in.  Will do a bit of re-planning.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 March, 2019, 11:19:31 am
I also think that people like Tops (and maybe you to an extent from some of your descriptions) are able to push themselves much harder on the turbo than I am willing to.  Also using erg mode means that when I find something a bit easy / having a good day, there isn't a way to put a bit more in. 
I don't know if the ability to torture oneself on the turbo is a strength or a character flaw! ;)

In TR, you can always turn up the intensity if it's too easy (and you know how hard it's supposed to be). I don't know about other platforms...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 18 March, 2019, 01:29:10 pm
I also think that people like Tops (and maybe you to an extent from some of your descriptions) are able to push themselves much harder on the turbo than I am willing to.  Also using erg mode means that when I find something a bit easy / having a good day, there isn't a way to put a bit more in. 
I don't know if the ability to torture oneself on the turbo is a strength or a character flaw! ;)

In TR, you can always turn up the intensity if it's too easy (and you know how hard it's supposed to be). I don't know about other platforms...

I'm honestly not that great at the really hard top end sessions.   I can do plenty of volume at endurance/tempo, though.  This is obviously the key given my main race distances.   I'll never be a great 10 rider or a pursuiter.   

I'm not sure how easy it is but why not turn the tech off for a while and just go by HR/speed ?   I'm training on fixed on a magnetic turbo and leave the resistance on a single setting.   If I want to go harder I increase speed and if I want to back off I just slow down.   I just watch cadence and HR now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 March, 2019, 02:29:06 pm
I'm honestly not that great at the really hard top end sessions.   I can do plenty of volume at endurance/tempo, though.  This is obviously the key given my main race distances.   I'll never be a great 10 rider or a pursuiter.   
I quite like the repeated VO2 work, but I find the volume at tempo so boring. I have always liked short sharp hills as well (though I've not really ridden anywhere with long sharp hills).

Quote
I'm not sure how easy it is but why not turn the tech off for a while and just go by HR/speed ?   I'm training on fixed on a magnetic turbo and leave the resistance on a single setting.   If I want to go harder I increase speed and if I want to back off I just slow down.   I just watch cadence and HR now.

Does that limit you to a narrow band of power (I assume you have the data and look at it afterwards?)? My VO2 work is 260W, and the rests in between would be ~100W - when I had a dumb trainerI could never manage the jump up/down without shifting. I guess if the majority of your turbo work is in tempo/sweetspot/threshold areas then that's quite a narrow band, though it would mean spinning rapidly at maximum power.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 18 March, 2019, 02:48:47 pm
I'm honestly not that great at the really hard top end sessions.   I can do plenty of volume at endurance/tempo, though.  This is obviously the key given my main race distances.   I'll never be a great 10 rider or a pursuiter.   
I quite like the repeated VO2 work, but I find the volume at tempo so boring. I have always liked short sharp hills as well (though I've not really ridden anywhere with long sharp hills).

Quote
I'm not sure how easy it is but why not turn the tech off for a while and just go by HR/speed ?   I'm training on fixed on a magnetic turbo and leave the resistance on a single setting.   If I want to go harder I increase speed and if I want to back off I just slow down.   I just watch cadence and HR now.

Does that limit you to a narrow band of power (I assume you have the data and look at it afterwards?)? My VO2 work is 260W, and the rests in between would be ~100W - when I had a dumb trainerI could never manage the jump up/down without shifting. I guess if the majority of your turbo work is in tempo/sweetspot/threshold areas then that's quite a narrow band, though it would mean spinning rapidly at maximum power.

I don't have a power meter so can't tell you.   I'm quite a simple individual.

Roughly, on yesterday's session where I set the levels early on using HR I was pushing 94-100rpm at different times and this was all within my upper tempo HR zone of 160-168.   The sessions my coach writes have a warm up and then a level setting piece.   As an example yesterday I did 20mins to bring HR up to 155-158bpm (top of endurance/bottom end of tempo) and to record the speed for the last 8mins.   This then becomes the base level for the rest of the workout.

When I was doing 6s maximal efforts last week I was hitting 170rpm at the end of the effort.

To be honest this is what you need when racing on fixed.   Once you've selected your gear you just need to spin faster in order to go faster.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 18 March, 2019, 03:09:30 pm
I just use turbo during week for the intervals and intensity work.  I do no more than one hour on the turbo in a single session.  I then try and get at least one four hour ride outdoors in a week as well.  I am getting faster but it is the long rides that help me sort out my fueling and hydration strategies as it is often getting those wrong that slows me down (over long distance) more than anything.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 18 March, 2019, 03:14:12 pm
I managed a 3.5 hour turbo session on Saturday - something I would never have countenanced before using Zwift; my first ever indoors "100".

Of course I was buggered yesterday, and had to abort yesterday's planned session after "only" 45 minutes. Fboab recovers much more successfully than me - ah the power of youth...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 March, 2019, 03:23:02 pm
I'm honestly not that great at the really hard top end sessions.   I can do plenty of volume at endurance/tempo, though.  This is obviously the key given my main race distances.   I'll never be a great 10 rider or a pursuiter.   
I quite like the repeated VO2 work, but I find the volume at tempo so boring. I have always liked short sharp hills as well (though I've not really ridden anywhere with long sharp hills).

Quote
I'm not sure how easy it is but why not turn the tech off for a while and just go by HR/speed ?   I'm training on fixed on a magnetic turbo and leave the resistance on a single setting.   If I want to go harder I increase speed and if I want to back off I just slow down.   I just watch cadence and HR now.

Does that limit you to a narrow band of power (I assume you have the data and look at it afterwards?)? My VO2 work is 260W, and the rests in between would be ~100W - when I had a dumb trainer I could never manage the jump up/down without shifting. I guess if the majority of your turbo work is in tempo/sweetspot/threshold areas then that's quite a narrow band, though it would mean spinning rapidly at maximum power.

Roughly, on yesterday's session where I set the levels early on using HR I was pushing 94-100rpm at different times and this was all within my upper tempo HR zone of 160-168.   The sessions my coach writes have a warm up and then a level setting piece.   As an example yesterday I did 20mins to bring HR up to 155-158bpm (top of endurance/bottom end of tempo) and to record the speed for the last 8mins.   This then becomes the base level for the rest of the workout.

When I was doing 6s maximal efforts last week I was hitting 170rpm at the end of the effort.

To be honest this is what you need when racing on fixed.   Once you've selected your gear you just need to spin faster in order to go faster.

You're the authority, but surely hills (or headwinds) decouple the spinningness from the power requirement? On upslopes I can do much more power at 80rpm than I can do on a downslope at 120rpm (which ought to be fine, because more power at a slower speed is better value for effort). Clearly that's a very different requirement to using erg and spinning at 95rpm whatever the power required, so at some point I'm going to have to either turn off erg or deliberately vary my cadences much more (you can erg at whatever cadence you want, if you sit there for a while and let the turbo adjust). 
I can understand track riders needing to produce more power as the speed goes up, but for riding on the road I would have thought there are more factors to account for. Or am I just overthinking it?  :-\
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 18 March, 2019, 03:58:23 pm
You may be trying to overengineer something that I chose as a simpler option or one less thing to think about.

In general I don't race hilly courses but headwinds can be a killer.   Getting the effort out into a headwind is fine, but the ability to really spin comes in handy on fast, tailwind dual carriageways.   Doing some of your drills at high cadences really help with this, particularly in race position.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 18 March, 2019, 08:44:50 pm

I'm honestly not that great at the really hard top end sessions.   I can do plenty of volume at endurance/tempo, though.  This is obviously the key given my main race distances.   I'll never be a great 10 rider or a pursuiter.   

I'm not sure how easy it is but why not turn the tech off for a while and just go by HR/speed ?   I'm training on fixed on a magnetic turbo and leave the resistance on a single setting.   If I want to go harder I increase speed and if I want to back off I just slow down.   I just watch cadence and HR now.

I think I need to do a bit more of that.   So I replaced the hour of VO2 max intervals session TR wanted me to do with 90 mins of 3 x 20 sweet spot.  I'm finding 90 mins a bit of an upward limit on my turbo tolerance. 

I might turn the data off when I get out on the road on Wednesday and Sunday; remembering what I could do from 2013-16 is a bit demotivating!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 18 March, 2019, 08:47:24 pm
...remembering what I could do from 2013-16 is a bit demotivating!

You and me both!  :facepalm:

Well. 2013, anyway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 18 March, 2019, 10:48:38 pm

I'm honestly not that great at the really hard top end sessions.   I can do plenty of volume at endurance/tempo, though.  This is obviously the key given my main race distances.   I'll never be a great 10 rider or a pursuiter.   

I'm not sure how easy it is but why not turn the tech off for a while and just go by HR/speed ?   I'm training on fixed on a magnetic turbo and leave the resistance on a single setting.   If I want to go harder I increase speed and if I want to back off I just slow down.   I just watch cadence and HR now.

I think I need to do a bit more of that.   So I replaced the hour of VO2 max intervals session TR wanted me to do with 90 mins of 3 x 20 sweet spot.  I'm finding 90 mins a bit of an upward limit on my turbo tolerance. 

I might turn the data off when I get out on the road on Wednesday and Sunday; remembering what I could do from 2013-16 is a bit demotivating!

With the high intensity stuff I am  not convinced that more is better.  Does an hour of VO2 intervals bring about significantly more adaption than say 45 mins or 30 mins? At what point does the combination of high intensity and total duration just mean your body does not adapt to the stress when you have your recovery period afterwards or even worse begins to get weaker and break down?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 18 March, 2019, 11:12:44 pm
for clarity sake we need to agree how we count duration. one hour may only have 20min of hard work, which isn't the same as an hour spent at vo2 level!.. my understanding is that our bodies are capable of recovering from hard 20-30min efforts within a day or so.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 19 March, 2019, 08:42:35 am

With the high intensity stuff I am  not convinced that more is better.  Does an hour of VO2 intervals bring about significantly more adaption than say 45 mins or 30 mins? At what point does the combination of high intensity and total duration just mean your body does not adapt to the stress when you have your recovery period afterwards or even worse begins to get weaker and break down?

Isn't it individual specific, depending on your natural strengths and what adaptations you want to achieve? Eg I'm preparing for very long events so don't have any desire for adaptation to develop the acceleration to make or chase a break in a road race. But there's probably a reason why some of us (Rob, Zigzag, etc) have gravitated towards long events and it might be that we adapt more readily in that direction than to getting very fast over 20-60 minutes, even though the latter is still very much endurance riding. Or maybe we just had too much time on our hands at some point!

Agree re definition of duration. There s a trade off between brevity /clarity and detail, but one person's high intensity is not necessarily another's.
one thing I like about tr is that when it says a session is an hour it means an hour. Last year with a coach I would get hour sessions that excluded 15 mins of warm up and cool down, which made scheduling more painful!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 March, 2019, 12:46:19 pm
TR’s fitting into an hour sometimes does mean insufficient cool down. It helps that they added a button to extend it.

I think you need a mix of intensifies. Training at one intensity leads to a one dimensional athelete. The vo2max or higher stuff has necessarily to be of limited duration. I would say that a 1-1.5h workout once per week is not excessive. Doing more than 1 of these will soon result in dimingishing returns as you need too much recovery.

For short distance racers the base/build/speciality cycle is going to most likely feature more insensith and less duration at the speciality stage. For an ultra racer it might be that longer miles feature much more as you approach the big day (or days).

Mixing it up is a good thing IMO. Though getting close to vomiting doing 6x500m rowing machine efforts last year was not ideal. Then doing similar work on the water and actually throwing up.  But then we won way more races than in any previous season so maybe it was worth it.

My power numbers on the turbo are similar to 2017/2018 but still off 2015’s best.  It is only March though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 19 March, 2019, 02:53:23 pm
Where's Trevor when you need him?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 19 March, 2019, 08:14:05 pm
Where's Trevor when you need him?

Someone remind me where the ignore function is please ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 March, 2019, 09:51:02 pm
Been a bit off form since middle of last week. Unable to finish Ansel Adams tonight. Probably not helped by kettlebell work yesterday. Hoping to feel a bit better by Saturday for the 200k.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 March, 2019, 10:33:08 am
I've got a cold, but I bashed through Carson this morning. At least half of each work interval was in the aero bars (and without back pain), so I'm making progress...
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/52766677-carson-4
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 20 March, 2019, 03:43:27 pm
I've got a cold, but I bashed through Carson this morning. At least half of each work interval was in the aero bars (and without back pain), so I'm making progress...
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/52766677-carson-4

My approach during this "turbo-season" (i.e. since the Autumn) has been to skip/delay any workout where I don't feel right. Hint of a sore throat coming on? Skip training. Bad night's sleep leaving me feeling sub-par? Skip training. Anything not right at all, skip training.

Feb '18 was my first time with TR and I was too keen to train, showing the zeal of the newly converted. I lost successive weeks where I'd overdone it a bit, was too eager to get back at it, and then just couldn't shake a cold/viral infection. Result: great big gaps in my training last Spring...

Could be just coincidence, but no gaps at all this time around following my new zero-tolerance approach to any hint of sickness (or pre-sickness!) plus a big focus on getting more sleep by going to bed (much) earlier and generally more and better recovery, which I seem to need as I age. Where I've decided to skip a session due to feeling sub-par, I've often been able to do it one or two days later having quickly bounced back from the ropey feeling, resulting in the number of workouts permanently skipped due to sickness being tiny. Big contrast to the prior year.

What allowed me, psychologically, to take this approach was commencing the prep for my target event 8 months in advance. With so much time to prepare, backed by a solid plan, it always felt like I had (have) the necessary time with plenty of contingency, so no need to be concerned about taking a day or two off. This is in contrast to last year where I didn't begin the properly structured training until the end of February, leaving me too much to pack in and hence intolerant of downtime.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 March, 2019, 04:46:24 pm
I've skipped 7 workouts this year through illness or unavailability, and I've cut a number of the others short. This week and last week are shorter easier workouts to try to ensure that my back is better before I hammer it again!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 20 March, 2019, 09:44:51 pm
My scheduled event for today was a 2-hour session consisting mainly of 3x30 at 90% of threshold.  I didn't fancy doing something so long on the turbo but it sounded like a useful session, so I bunked off at 3pm to go for a ride instead, and did the 3x30 over the course of 100km. 

It was a tough session.  I erred on the side of slightly higher power - and I think that Traineroad measures a bit higher than my power meter. 

Enjoyed it a lot more than sitting in the garage for 2 hours and legs a bit sore now.  Tomorrow is an easy day so will see if I overdid it when I do my next proper session on Friday.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 21 March, 2019, 11:39:08 am
I've skipped 7 workouts this year through illness or unavailability, and I've cut a number of the others short. This week and last week are shorter easier workouts to try to ensure that my back is better before I hammer it again!

We're all different - and my approach won't suit others.

It took me quite a while (over a decade ;D) to twig that I needed quite a lot of recovery. Prior to taking up cycling as a sport I 'never' got colds or was sick, while afterwards they became much more frequent during the colder months, suggesting my immune system was taking a battering and unable to do its usual job.

Being unable to handle large volumes of training is a bit of a limiter, but I'm just a punter not a pro, so hey ho.

TR Low Vol plans, supplemented/swapped out with outdoor rides where possible, and paired up with a focus recovery as described above, seems to be working well and my fitness is good (roughly as good as it's been, ~3.5w/kg and rising). I'm keeping tabs on the sleep and the recovery using a Garmin watch and its HRV (Firstbeat Stress score) functionality; the numbers tie in well with how I feel but have made it easier (more systematic) to self-monitor and avoid sickness by overdoing it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 March, 2019, 09:22:57 am
I agree that it makes sense to stop with a proper cold, and I have been doing that. This week's was just a minor one really. I'm only on low volume (and I rarely ride outside during the winter), so skipping workouts makes a massive difference. I struggle with the sleep stuff, and I need to stretch and do core work more, but I'm working on my diet and adjusting to the TT position slowly.

Today's workout was Ericsson-4, which was made up of 4x8 intervals around threshold (4 minutes at 230W, 3 at 220, and 1 at 215). I did 2 minutes in the aero bars, 1 minute of sitting up for the first 3 of the intervals, and it was OK (if I don't sit up and towel down then I drip sweat all over my phone, which is really gross and sometimes stops the workout!). The last one was tougher, so I didn't do so much in aero.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/52872768-ericsson-4

My back seems able to cope with it now, so I'm going to start the 40k TT speciality plan next week. Club events are just around the corner, so it's time to get on with it (and also to get outside and practise bike handling with my new position).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 22 March, 2019, 09:57:21 am
I didn't fail or skip a session for the best part of 4 month and then it all got a bit hard and I started avoiding the odd session or missing the hard bits.  I think I was pushing a little hard but I also think that my top-end breathing is effected by hay fever.  I hate making excuses but the same things has happened at roughly the same time for the last 3 years.

3 more weeks to go on the current block which is a little heavy on the volume and then a weeks holiday.   I am starting to finally feel like I'm in the right place even though I still haven't entered a time trial for this season.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 22 March, 2019, 10:45:38 am
I think I was pushing a little hard but I also think that my top-end breathing is effected by hay fever.  I hate making excuses but the same things has happened at roughly the same time for the last 3 years.


There was lots of pollen around in london about 3-4 weeks ago, after it had been warm them became windy.  My eyes were streaming one day coming back from a meeting the other side of town.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 22 March, 2019, 10:49:27 am
I'm going to skip my session today. 

I had to go somewhere this morning so did a gentle 45 mins recovery ride there.  If I had felt good, I would have incorporated intervals into the return trip, but legs a bit sore from Wednesday's ride.  So I am going to leave it with 1.5 hours of recovery ride for today, plus yoga at lunchtime.

Would I have been better to have just done intervals rather than 100km ride on Wednesday so I could do more intervals today?  Not sure - I think I got quite a lot out of a reasonably hard ride on the roads, and I need to get a few of those in to sort out some questions to do with position, pedal and saddle choice.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 22 March, 2019, 10:55:18 am
I did Monitor last night and it felt really hard - 6x6m:2 sweet-spot.

My legs are still sore from gym work done on Monday - particularly left hamstring. I couldn't decide if it was this, or a drop in fitness, but my average HR was lower than in several previous attempts at this workout at similar power, so I'm going to assume the issue is the sore legs.

Got 200k tomorrow, so being a bit less sore by then would be good.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 March, 2019, 12:06:48 pm
Last 2 weekends have been 200k Sat and tempo on the turbo on Sunday.   This weekend the other way round.  2.5hrs on the turbo is so much nicer without a 200k in your legs.

Forecast for tomorrow looks good.  3 more weeks in this block and then a weeks holiday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 23 March, 2019, 04:40:50 pm
Session in the Chilterns today collecting hills with chevrons on them. Managed to collect 10 chevrons so good session. Must return when the bluebells are out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 March, 2019, 05:24:55 pm
Surrey Hills today with a few clubmates. 
Most enjoyable ride I've done for a while.  Legs felt good so I was pleased I skipped Friday's turbo session! 
800 TSS this week - tomorrow is recovery week :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 24 March, 2019, 05:51:23 pm
Today's workout (https://www.strava.com/activities/2236999592) seems to have hit the spot. Two and a half hours on the trainer, 222 TSS and I feel like I've ridden a 200.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 March, 2019, 06:26:14 pm
I rode my first PBP qualifier yesterday, finally.

Only a total of about 106km outdoors so far this year - but managed ok. I didn't eat a huge amount and that told on the unexpectedly steep (20% sign) at 150km or so. Fortunately from there to the finish is basically downhill the whole way, which made the average speed a bit more respectable.

I'm not especially looking forwards to the hilly 300k in two weeks now - I think that's going to be a long day, but that does give 4 weeks to the Brevet Cymru which has about the same amount of climbing.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 24 March, 2019, 07:25:19 pm
Today's workout (https://www.strava.com/activities/2236999592) seems to have hit the spot. Two and a half hours on the trainer, 222 TSS and I feel like I've ridden a 200.

I think your numbers might be out slightly. The above says you almost went full gas for two and a half hours, or it would be if the TSS was 250.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 24 March, 2019, 08:10:17 pm
I figured I'd do an FTP test today in aero. Bad idea. I never hit my targets in late afternoon anyway, and this was an extra bad idea. Called it after 5 minutes of the 20 minute portion (and it wasn't much fun as I spent the first minute playing around with the resistance trying to get the power right). Suggested FTP was 228, which is 16W down on my last test. :(
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/53001551-20-minute-ftp-test
So after that I did a half hour version of Carson. All the work periods were in aero position, so that was something.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/53003475-carson-5

I've worked out how to put my phone in the right position so I have to ride turtle to see the numbers. That is going to be useful, but I need some bluetooth headphones because the cables won't reach from there.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 24 March, 2019, 08:20:26 pm
Last 2 weekends have been 200k Sat and tempo on the turbo on Sunday.   This weekend the other way round.  2.5hrs on the turbo is so much nicer without a 200k in your legs.

Forecast for tomorrow looks good.  3 more weeks in this block and then a weeks holiday.

200 was great.  8h5m.  Mostly on my own but buddied up with 3 others for the last 30k and did bit-and-bit.  Pretty tired now.   Gentle commute tomorrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 March, 2019, 09:01:40 am
200 was great.  8h5m.  Mostly on my own but buddied up with 3 others for the last 30k and did bit-and-bit.  Pretty tired now.   Gentle commute tomorrow.

Man of Kent?  I rode it last year but didn't get my entry in in time this year. 
It's definitely fixed-friendly as, when I did it a few years ago, my rear cable snapped after the first control and I had to clamp it in one gear, and it was hardly any inconvenience to do it singlespeed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 25 March, 2019, 09:39:26 am
200 was great.  8h5m.  Mostly on my own but buddied up with 3 others for the last 30k and did bit-and-bit.  Pretty tired now.   Gentle commute tomorrow.

Man of Kent?  I rode it last year but didn't get my entry in in time this year. 
It's definitely fixed-friendly as, when I did it a few years ago, my rear cable snapped after the first control and I had to clamp it in one gear, and it was hardly any inconvenience to do it singlespeed.

Yeah.   I walked the first steep hill.   Bit much on 79".   The rest is very benign for Kent - it could be a much lumpier ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 March, 2019, 08:13:50 pm
Another failed session tonight.   First time for a few weeks.

I think I’m around my limit in terms of fatigue.

A few days of commuting and then back to old roads for another 200k at the weekend.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 29 March, 2019, 09:58:40 am
I had Tuesday off as I was busy with other stuff (and doing quite a lot of walking - 15,000 steps on Wednesday, which is a record for me!).  Back on it today with 45 minutes of Carson - 26 minutes of Sweet Spot, all of which was in the aero bars. I should probably re-do Build in the aero bars and see if I can pick my FTP up again - I'm relatively comfortable on the sweet spot intervals but my FTP is down on earlier in the year.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/53260882-carson-4
The big flat bit is where I had a connection failure - adding bluetooth headphones to a trainer, PM and HR band all also on bluetooth was probably too much! I might try getting my laptop on the trainer stand and using an ANT+ dongle.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 29 March, 2019, 12:58:16 pm
I managed to destroy my rear mech - first the hanger, then ham-fisted attempts to repair, so it's been in the shop. Back on the trainer last night Zwift gave me a TSS of 113 for an hour long ride. "wow" , thinks I, "a few days rest and I AM A CYCLING GOD- it really didn't seem that tough"

Then I remembered I told Zwift my FTP was 180 so I could do 2 workouts in a day to catch up with the Mixtape Challenge.

TSS was actually 85. Doh.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 31 March, 2019, 04:16:23 pm
did a ramp test today, but was not willing to push myself to the max (stopped at 183bpm instead of 188). still, happy with the result and re-adjusted ftp to 320w. final four weeks of the build phase ahead followed by a ten day cycling tour of sardinia and sicily.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 31 March, 2019, 06:48:48 pm
100km today and TrainerRoad says it's a PB for 4h power.

Reckon this is because most of the time by the time I have done 100km I have stopped at a control but this was without a break. Still, 191W np for over 4 hours is not too bad, and got quite a few Strava PRs.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 31 March, 2019, 10:39:35 pm
191np for 4 hours is good going.  :thumbsup:
I wanted to do a test 10, but the clocks messed me up and I didn't have time, so I hammered out to the course, and then turned around and blasted back. 54x16 feels like a really big gear when you are starting from standstill (and a bit when you are climbing), but when you are rolling or blasting downhill it's fantastic. I need to get my bike computer to auto pause - when I analyse the ride on TR it says I have 6 minutes of coasting, which is a bit odd given it's fixed! ;) 7 PRs and 8 2nds shows that this bike helps me go fast. :)
https://www.strava.com/activities/2254048436

I finished the build phase at the end of Feb, but it was a bit of a mess have 1 and my back was dodgy, so I've been doing sweet spot to sort things out. Instead of going to Speciality, I'm going back to sustained power build and trying to boot my FTP back up again. I will try to switch 1 ride a week for a TT if I can time things right, but I reckon a full throttle 10 can replace a 1 hour under/over workout anyway (maybe not if it takes under 20 minutes, but mine are closer to 30 than 20).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 01 April, 2019, 08:37:05 pm
January
FTP up 13W (184->197)
Weight down (-6.8kg)
39hr 48m
1019"km" [it's a fairly meaningless number]
February
FTP up 11W (197>208)
Weight down (-2.9kg)
42hr
1061"km" [a few were even outside actual real kilometres]
Given the stress of leaving one job and starting another, and there's only 28 days in Feb, I'm pretty happy with that.
March
FTP static
Weight static
50hr
1209"km" including 2 x 200km
New job is a bit demoralising and my diet has gone to shit. 5 weeks till the Imperator, need to get my act together.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Zed43 on 02 April, 2019, 09:10:08 am
5 weeks till the Imperator, need to get my act together.
Ain't that the truth  :( I can barely find the time to do the three rides a week of the low volume SS base 2 plan at the moment... Yesterday's Bluebell was killer after Sunday's Clark; I dozed off on the couch after diner and this morning's yoga practice was a quest for finding a pose that didn't feel stiff, sore or achy (only Bālāsana qualified...)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 April, 2019, 09:03:11 am
Ramp test this morning. It was really cold!
Went well though - I've put my road bike back on the trainer so I can ride the TT bike outside (racing starts this month). The legs felt good, though spinning wasn't as smooth and my cadence was down a bit - I still managed to go past 20 minutes so my FTP has gone back up to 243. Lungs feel  a bit sore now though - lots of cold dry air gone through them I guess. If I can juggle the Build plan with TTing and avoid getting ill then hopefully I can get that up for the summer.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/53546343-ramp-test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 April, 2019, 09:02:35 pm
I have a bit of flexibility in the next few weeks.  Partly because my coach is going on holiday, partly because I have a holiday but also as I’ve been teetering on the edge of fatigue for the last couple of weeks.

I have been doing much less turbo work - 2 sessions a week of roughly an hour - but a lot more road work for the last few weeks.   Rattling round the Lincoln 200 last weekend with Bob Johnson telling me I was giving him a hard time was satisfying and tells me I’m where I need to be.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 April, 2019, 11:18:54 am
Poor ramp test last night - FTP down 23W. Not sure if fatigue or if disruption to training from various sources over the last few weeks. I have taken thew new FTP score for TR for now, will see if workouts become too easy.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 April, 2019, 05:07:41 pm
Mine edged up again on Monday.  Still a bit below where it used to be.  Would probably have been a bit higher but parents arrived for a visit just as I was doing it - they were earlier than expected - and I could probably have kept going for a little longer if I didn't have an audience.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 April, 2019, 10:55:26 am
Over-unders at the new FTP today. Pretty solid - had to skip a bit because I didn't realise it was a 75 minute workout and I didn't have time for the extra 15 minutes.  Managed to skip about 6 minutes of rest and 4 minutes of work, so I think that's reasonable. Feeling much happier about things than I was a couple of weeks ago. I wanted to get out and ride the TT bike this weekend, but it looks like I'll be out and about with the family, so might just have to do a TR workout instead.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/53658700-carpathian-peak
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 05 April, 2019, 04:39:30 pm
VO2 Max intervals this afternoon.  I was not looking forward to this session, mostly as I struggled on it last week and really had to hang in there.  Today I nailed them despite forgetting to put my water bottles within reach.  Another week of this build period and then rest, retest then Easter Arrow.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 April, 2019, 06:56:50 pm
The day after doing Carpathian Peak, and didn't have time to do full Mt Goode (today or tomorrow), so did this 45 minute beastie instead. Felt difficult, and I had a little backpedal in the middle of the 3rd interval, but that was more of a mental thing than a physical thing - I think my legs could have coped (just about). 3x8 at 105% of FTP is especially hard when you've just bumped it up!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/53710519-dicks-3
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 06 April, 2019, 09:12:49 pm
I like to provide balance to this year's success stories.

Essentially, I continue to not progress at all fitness-wise.

Today's awesomeness: I rode a sub 1.5W/Kg ride on Zwift, and managed that. When that was done, I thought I'd do something a bit, well... "normal", so I picked it up to 2w/Kg, and it was rubbish - not a particularly high heart-rate, but an RPE well higher than it should be - at least an 8. I felt sick, light-headed and fucking hard-done-by.

This is not something new, and I've been to the GP. We're still at the "You probably have a virus" stage. Yeah - that'll be one of those "Six Month" viruses then. Sigh...

Mentally - I've given up. Fuck it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 April, 2019, 12:36:55 pm
I got another flat on the turbo this morning. It was preceded by a thump thump thump type noise. When I re-inflated the tube, the tyre had a chunky bulge on it. :( So I got up early, and my reward was 10 minutes of my hours workout and I need a new tyre. These tyres (Challenge Paris Roubaix) have been a bit of a nightmare - they were pretty slippy and cut up a bit on the only outside ride I've done with them, and now I've got a bulge on the rear (and a hole in the front caused by it falling over when the other bike was on the turbo and the tyre resting on the turbo bike tyre). I was supposed to be able to commute to work tomorrow (half term)... ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 April, 2019, 12:51:17 pm
I like to provide balance to this year's success stories.

Essentially, I continue to not progress at all fitness-wise.

Today's awesomeness: I rode a sub 1.5W/Kg ride on Zwift, and managed that. When that was done, I thought I'd do something a bit, well... "normal", so I picked it up to 2w/Kg, and it was rubbish - not a particularly high heart-rate, but an RPE well higher than it should be - at least an 8. I felt sick, light-headed and fucking hard-done-by.

This is not something new, and I've been to the GP. We're still at the "You probably have a virus" stage. Yeah - that'll be one of those "Six Month" viruses then. Sigh...

Mentally - I've given up. Fuck it.

I hope it comes good for you.

It's not all rosy here either.

I dropped 23W on my ramp test on Thursday; have been having headaches every day since (waking up with a headache last two mornings, headache is controlled with caffeine and ibuprofen, also have neck pain and sometimes nausea).

Fucking Brevet Cymru is 3 and a half weeks away and I've not got a 300k in and can't get one in this month now - even if I suddenly get better. I don't need this. Doc's tomorrow for me.

Just hoping it's not my cool hair, which I recently obtained.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 April, 2019, 10:00:28 pm
So I'm on an anti-migraine drug. Potential rare side effects include heart attack, heart rhythm abnormalities and increased risk of stroke. Probably will  stay off the turbo while I try this out just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 10 April, 2019, 10:04:31 pm
Ugh - sorry to hear you're not so well.

The last couple of rides have been a little less shit for me. I reckon if I'm still making PRs, there can't be anything too much wrong. Hopefully!!

We'll see how this coming weekend's 300 turns out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 April, 2019, 02:21:05 pm
Ugh - sorry to hear you're not so well.

The last couple of rides have been a little less shit for me. I reckon if I'm still making PRs, there can't be anything too much wrong. Hopefully!!

We'll see how this coming weekend's 300 turns out.

Good to hear things are looking a bit better. Hopefully the 300k will go well.

I made a lifetime 4h PR a couple of weeks back - partially because I didn't stop vs normally would stop before 100km on an Audax. PBP 2015 may have exceeded this, but the power meter broke.

I woke up again early with a headache this morning - decided to not take anything except my normal coffee. It did subside by the time I was up, but came back mid-morning, so I took the drugs, and it's gone.

This isn't a migraine type pattern of headaches, this is more consistent with a cluster headache. The drug I'm on isn't a painkiller - it's only supposed to be effective against cluster headaches and migraine. If I've developed cluster headaches, I could be looking at 4-12 weeks before it stops. They're supposedly more common in the spring and autumn. I've only been given 6 tablets so if it's still an issue after the weekend I'll be back at the doctor's early next week.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 April, 2019, 05:22:26 pm
That headache sounds a nightmare.
I was planning on commuting on the bike today - organised everything and then woke up with a super tight hip flexor/psoas (it actually woke me up in the night). So I figured discretion was the better part and drove - will do my TR workout tomorrow.
I'm unsure of whether I'm going to do a club social ride Sunday or a proper TT training session - the first TT of the season is on Tuesday, but the club social may be short of ride leaders. Wait and see how I go tomorrow morning and how much time I have on Sunday I guess.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 12 April, 2019, 09:02:50 am
I did half of the scheduled workout - 2 of the 4 sets of under/over intervals.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/54054259-fang-mountain-1
It actually felt OK for the legs/lungs perspective (aside from the warmup), but my hip/psoas/back was tight, so I quit early to do some stretching.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 12 April, 2019, 10:49:55 am
Last turbo session for a while last night.   Just under 300k to ride tomorrow and then completely off the bike until Easter Sat when I have my 300k qualifier.

Weight about right, sleeping well but in and out of over-tiredness.   I may enter a few time trials soon.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 14 April, 2019, 08:01:02 pm
After a few days rest I am planning to do a FTP test tomorrow.  Traditionally I have done the 20 min test, total time about 50 mins.  I have the Easter Arrow on Friday and am considering doing the ramp test as I believe it will have less impact on the Arrow. With 3.5 days between the test and Arrow need I not be concerned and either test would be fine? 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 April, 2019, 08:49:10 pm
I did half of the scheduled workout - 2 of the 4 sets of under/over intervals.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/54054259-fang-mountain-1
It actually felt OK for the legs/lungs perspective (aside from the warmup), but my hip/psoas/back was tight, so I quit early to do some stretching.

I did Fang Mountain + 1 on Friday. I found it the hardest one I've done.  Managed the 4 sets but had to have short breaks in each of the last two as I was grinding to a hault. 

Missed my session today, as it was a nice afternoon and it seemed more pleasant to take my daughter to play in the park!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 14 April, 2019, 09:23:38 pm
FTP-wise in TR, I've lowered it slightly from my last test as it felt a little too high in the past couple of weeks. Also, I won't be doing a ramp test to kick off Sustained Power Build and will play it by ear, adjusting upwards if workouts eventually begin to feel a little too "easy".

Just completed Sustained Power Build.

The main goal has been to follow the process and see where it gets me. Not done a test since the new year, and am still using a number that's a touch lower than that Jan test number, after having manually lowered it to make the w/o's less impossible. But..., I've stuck to the process, luckily avoided illness and injury, and not skipped a w/o. I've tweaked intensity (downwards!) a bit where needed, but I've essentially stuck to the plan. My 6-week TSS avg has steadily climbed.

Compared to this time last year, where I did too much too soon then crashed and burned, it's a model of consistency, and I'm not complaining that power/fitness doesn't appear to have improved much yet. I feel that endurance is improving and FTP will likely follow in due course as/when volume rises from current modest levels.

I aim to do a test in 3 weeks, with little-to-no TR planned before then: I've got a week-ish outdoor riding lined up first, a short hilly audax-ish the following week, then a short holiday (rest & recovery!). Hopefully, the FTP test will show >=3.5w/kg.

Slow progress is still progress!!! My aspiration remains as 260w ~3.7w/kg by the end of Sept. I'm set to do a quite a lot of volume in Jul and Aug, so, subject to avoiding a big layoff like happened last year, this seems realistic and within reach.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 14 April, 2019, 10:26:10 pm
After a few days rest I am planning to do a FTP test tomorrow.  Traditionally I have done the 20 min test, total time about 50 mins.  I have the Easter Arrow on Friday and am considering doing the ramp test as I believe it will have less impact on the Arrow. With 3.5 days between the test and Arrow need I not be concerned and either test would be fine?

I like to arrive at events with loads of rest in me, but every one is different, so it's personal preference.

But if you intend to test then I'd choose the ramp test as it'll be less draining and impactful. Avoid either test protocol if you've any hint of sickness in you at all, else Friday could be grim.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 15 April, 2019, 06:48:20 am

Just completed Sustained Power Build.


Well done!

After finding the Base sessions relatively easy, I'm struggling with Sustained Power Build / Mid volume.  I've found the difficulty has ramped up quickly on me and I've just had to abandon a workout.  I was well rested and feeling good (so don't think I'll do better another time) but, when I saw what it wanted (Raymond + 7 - 4x8mins @ 108%), I didn't feel it was on as it seemed a big step up from what I've done previously. 

Part of the problem is that I have skipped a couple of sessions in favour of outdoor rides - albeit pretty challenging ones with much higher TSS than the skipped workouts, but probably more Endurance and Tempo than Threshold time.  However, looking at the skipped workouts, there has only been one with higher power (Baird +6, 15 x 1.5 mins @ 120%).  A nudge up in FTP at my last test has also stepped up the difficulty.

One possibility is to re-start the programme and do what you did - do every session - in particular Baird+6.  Although with the weather getting better I'll want to ride outside, and over Easter I'll have bike but not turbo.

Or the alternative might be to dial back the high intensity stuff as I'm not training to ride at those power levels.  Maybe I should look at the high volume build and see if that is a better fit [No - looked at it and it has similarly challenging intervals!].

Will spend the next half an hour, when I would have been riding, thinking about it!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 April, 2019, 09:30:05 am
Build has a lot of "pulling from the top" stuff that's trying to grow your VO2 and give you headroom for FTP increases. If you just do long events, maybe it's worth just repeating Sweet Spot Base? That has a little VO2, but it's mostly sweet spot, and if that's where you are going to be in your event, maybe it's worth just getting really good at that?

I did a TT simulation on Sunday. It was really windy, so it was a struggle to do 30kph on the way out, and it felt like I was spinning like hell at 40kph on the way back. https://www.strava.com/activities/2288911051
Riding was OK, but I've got some sort of abdominal issue - my hip has been tight for a couple of months and it's either my psoas or something in there that's painful (not while riding but afterwards). I should probably go see the doctor, but I bet they will just say to rest for a few weeks, and that's going to drop my fitness back down just when I want to be building it up. :(

Just checked the Trainer Road analysis tool, and my cadence varied between 65 (on the way out into the headwind) and 85-90 on the tailwind section with gravity assistance too. I need to work on producing power better on this machine at reasonable revs (80-110). The TR version can be found here: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/54168244-stadhampton-tt-test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 16 April, 2019, 10:42:04 am
After finding the Base sessions relatively easy, I'm struggling with Sustained Power Build / Mid volume.

I've had a basic turbo for donkey's years, and used it on and off for sweet-spot type work based off heart rate. Used to quite enjoy it...

When I decided to use TR, in conjunction with a smart trainer that would force me to do the prescribed work, my thoughts were "if I just follow the plan doing only X hours per week, I should make good improvements". Simple.

If I'd known then how hard it would be to "just" follow the plan there's every chance I'd never have started! I dialled things back by just doing a Low Vol plan, despite theoretically having plenty of time on my hands, and still find that "just" following the plan is very demanding. If I attempted much more volume than I'm doing, I'd probably lose focus and motivation...

I've also had to adopt various strategies to stick to the plan: reduce my FTP number a touch from the last tested number; sometimes reduce intensity of intervals by 1-2-3% as a w/o progresses; sometimes increase recovery lulls between intervals eg. from 3->6mins; mental tricks such as eating during w/o's for the psychological boost this can give, focusing on just the next 45 seconds, etc. Whatever's required to ensure the vast bulk - the meat - of a w/o gets completed and the training effect obtained.

This stuff's not easy, else everyone would be doing it. Instead, it's just lunatics like us...  ;)

Using TR is a fine balancing act for me: the w/o's are sufficiently arduous that facing having to do much more of them could easily be demotivating. I'm trying to calibrate it so I do enough to make some progress but not so much I get fed up with it and jack it in; playing the long game of improving over a few years rather than expecting miracles in just a few months. It is after all supposed to be "fun" that we choose to do in our leisure time. None of us are getting paid for it; quite the opposite. Crazy!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 April, 2019, 11:03:44 am
I think it's the willingness (and time) to push yourself hard in training that separates the great from the good (as well as genetics etc).

I've had a week off and then went back in with Monitor last night. No heavy legs! That's the difference that having a break makes. The workout was fine, I've not lost very much fitness with the week off, but I didn't carry any fatigue in.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/54242673-monitor

Comparing to FTP = 229 (currently 220 after the bad test a couple of weeks ago), when did this ride in September my HR was much lower (162 vs 154) => 220 is indeed too low and I can at least be reassured that I'm not back to square one.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 16 April, 2019, 11:10:41 am
Looking at numbers is fundamentally pretty dull. Ignoring the current pain for long term gains requires continued motivation and willpower, which is a rubbish way of doing anything- see also 'diets'.

That's why Zwift is so popular.

(Whopping FTP increase this week- 208 to 209W. W00t!)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 16 April, 2019, 11:36:31 am
Looking at numbers is fundamentally pretty dull. Ignoring the current pain for long term gains requires continued motivation and willpower, which is a rubbish way of doing anything

For many people, probably, but not for me.

I'm not bad at following a plan and sticking to a sound process I have some belief in, monitoring the numbers, and letting the long term come good (hopefully) from the cumulative effect of having retained discipline and exercised willpower throughout all the 'short-terms' along the way.

Same as in my vocation, investment management. I'm sure some others have vocations or interests of their own that crossover and contribute to training discipline, and vice versa. But it's probably not that "normal".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 16 April, 2019, 12:36:36 pm
During threshold or sweetspot workouts I listen to podcasts.  During VO2 Max intervals I have music on, and get on the drops head down during the work intervals, tops during rest intervals.   I need to focus much more on cadence and breathing and rely on the drop in resistance to detect the end of a work interval.  Hats off to those of you who can do the superlong workouts, I don't have the mental make up for those.  My longest workouts are an hour with 20 mins of that being the warm up and cooldown with a core 40 mins interval session.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 16 April, 2019, 10:52:51 pm
Thanks for comments above. Plan is to just do a couple of rides one Easter, then restart Build next Tuesday.
May go for the low volume version.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 23 April, 2019, 02:02:48 pm
I did another TT simulation yesterday.  Beforehand I swallowed my pride and resolved to try a 17 tooth sprocket to see if I could spin it, given 54x16 wasn't working for me. Then I took my rear wheel off and realised it was the wrong way around, and I had actually been using 54x15!  ::-)
54x16 was a lot more comfortable, and I did my second fastest time on the Strava segment, despite there being roadworks about 1/4 of the way into the course (out and back, so 3/4 as well). Unfortunately, I'm away on the weekend, so I can't race Sunday (then again, if the roadworks are still there it's going to be interesting). The ride is here: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/54544912-damned-roadworks-wrecked-tt-test- or here: https://www.strava.com/activities/2307097408 The power was OKish (normalised of 240, on an FTP of 243), but I struggled holding my position - had to have a couple of breaks on the horns on the way back. I had a strange dropout where my headunit lost all it's connections on my ride home - had to re-connect to the HR band and the pedals. Dunno why that happened - at least it was when it didn't matter.


On a really frustrating note, I rode out to the course, switched lids (it was too hot to wear the TT lid the whole time) and left my regular lid in a bag on the gatepost at the start.  When I got back it was gone. :( I guess as well as having an unpleasantly hot and sweaty ride home, I need a new lid.  :-[
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 April, 2019, 03:15:23 pm
12 days since I last got on the turbo but back on it tonight.

I have entered a 25 in a few weeks so time for a bit of mid-panic training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 23 April, 2019, 03:17:31 pm
12 days since I last got on the turbo but back on it tonight.

I have entered a 25 in a few weeks so time for a bit of mid-panic training.
How different is a 25 compared to a 10?  I've done a few 10s, and I want to have a go at a 25, but I've no idea what to expect. Do you change your gearing or position or anything, or just rock up and ride very slightly easier?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 April, 2019, 03:21:01 pm
Went out for a ride last night - felt pretty good, 30 miles steady paced.

I was holding 17mph in still air with heart rate in the 130s.

The rear light attempted suicide and the front mudguard* bracket broke, but apart from that good.

* Cheap shit fitted by LBS. I've already got a replacement waiting to go on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 April, 2019, 03:32:36 pm
12 days since I last got on the turbo but back on it tonight.

I have entered a 25 in a few weeks so time for a bit of mid-panic training.
How different is a 25 compared to a 10?  I've done a few 10s, and I want to have a go at a 25, but I've no idea what to expect. Do you change your gearing or position or anything, or just rock up and ride very slightly easier?

I use the same gear for a 10 and 25, for DC courses anyway.   The 25 is slightly different pacing wise - you need to keep close to threshold and then only lift with 15 odd mins to go (if you can).   To be honest, I'm a bit shit at 10s.   I simply can't get it all out in that space of time.   I only ride the odd 10 and then I combine it with a training ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 April, 2019, 08:53:19 pm
12 days since I last got on the turbo but back on it tonight.

Not entirely horrible but still a bit of a shock to the system.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 24 April, 2019, 11:22:17 am
I had a procedure on my foot yesterday- steroid injection to cure the hotfoot.

I can't walk. There will be no turbo in my immediate future. FFS. I'm due an FTP test this week. I guess at least I'll be rested.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 April, 2019, 11:25:28 am
I hope it helps. I had a steroid injection in my wrist last year and it was very helpful. I was advised to not turbo etc for a week, which was annoying, but it was worth it to be able to race through the summer without pain.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 24 April, 2019, 11:49:21 am
I had (years ago) steroid injections in my elbow to cure tennis elbow (brought on from milking cows) which was successful, but this procedure doesn't have a great record. The consultant recommended it as it's easy, cheap and minimally invasive. If this doesn't work they will be breaking a bone in my foot (http://www.londonfootankle.co.uk/foot-ankle-surgeon/minimally-invasive-metatarsal-osteotomy/).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 24 April, 2019, 01:08:25 pm
Breaking a bone sounds pretty brutal, hope the injection resolves it.
My best FTP tests have come after a week or so of rest (with maybe a quick blast the day before to get things going again). But if you've got the fitness, testing badly is no big deal - just re-do it after a week or so when you feel that you are back in the swing of things...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 April, 2019, 09:19:13 am
Something's better than nothing, right? I've slept terribly all week, so put sleeping above my TR rides (should have been a recovery week anyway). Today I dragged myself out of bed and picked a random 30 minute workout, just so I didn't have a blank week on the calendar!  It was actually quite fun (and I turned it up to 102% for the second set of intervals) - I like VO2 work when my legs are reasonably fresh. Could probably have gone harder on all of them. Makes me wonder why I have chosen TTs as my specialist subject this year!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/54812057-baird-3
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 April, 2019, 10:01:26 am
Having found Wednesday's Antelope -1 a bit easy I have bumped FTP up to 230.

Tomorrow will find out if this was a mistake as Palisade is the planned ride.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 April, 2019, 10:32:20 am
I'm losing motivation with TR.
I did a ramp test on Tuesday but I screwed it up by switching to my small chainring by mistake when I was in the last 2 or 3 minutes.  I got going again but, knowing my score would likely be compromised, didn't have the will to go all the way so I stopped earlier than I could have done, so registered a 5% lower FTP. 
And I've not been back on the turbo since! 
Had a fun ride on Tuesday afternoon taking a clubmate who has gone blind out on a tandem, and a blast into town and back for a meeting yesterday. 
I could do another ramp test and go from there.  Or I could give up the turbo now that the weather is warmer and just ride outside.  I think I'll probably do the latter.   It will mean losing some focus in training but I'll enjoy it more and will have a better idea how to structure rides having done the TR stuff. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 April, 2019, 11:28:41 am
TR now has some beta program that allows you to substitute outside rides for Turbo rides. It actually simplifies the ride so you can do it on the road (stuff like 15 seconds all out followed by 15 seconds rest, repeated 50 times is not going to be doable on the road). If you want to train on the road, rather than just go for rides (and going or rides is nicer!), maybe it's worth a try?

I'm losing motivation because my FTP is static. I don't think I'm being consistent enough with my volume, but life keeps getting in the way. I also need to train my neck so I can hold the TT position, and that's really not appetising! I am away this weekend, but have a ramp test scheduled for Tuesday - moment of truth for how this block has gone.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 April, 2019, 11:36:11 am
I got back on the turbo this week after 12 days off.   The Tuesday session was hard.   As I had a client event on Thursday night I tried to do an extra session on Wednesday and just gave up.

I feel great on the road at the moment and have enjoyed the recent audaxes, but turbo work just isn't much fun.   I do have some TTs coming up, though, so that should give me some motivation back.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 26 April, 2019, 02:25:04 pm
Makes me wonder why I have chosen TTs as my specialist subject this year!

I've honestly no idea why anyone who's not getting paid for it rides any TT ever!

My TR work is all so that come sunny days with blue skies I can go out and feel good on the bike, riding down (or mainly up!) quiet picturesque lanes out in the sticks, with a smile on my face.

Testers are all totally mental  ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 26 April, 2019, 02:42:26 pm
Or I could give up the turbo now that the weather is warmer and just ride outside.  I think I'll probably do the latter.   It will mean losing some focus in training but I'll enjoy it more and will have a better idea how to structure rides having done the TR stuff.

Sounds like a good plan. There's little point in ploughing on with a "plan" that you've no enthusiasm for and is proving bad for the soul...

For most of us, the whole point of the bike is to have "fun" (however you define that), so we feel better about ourselves.  All the monitoring and data-driven regimented work that TR relies on can be very good for making fitness progress, but it can also fairly easily tip over into making cycling a joyless pursuit IMO. No prizes for pointless martyrdom.

Best to listen to your own body and your own mind: if your enthusiasm is waning, I'd knock it on the head for a while and go back to doing something you enjoy more, eg. cycling outside free of the numbers. Good luck and have fun.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 April, 2019, 03:11:26 pm
TR now has some beta program that allows you to substitute outside rides for Turbo rides. It actually simplifies the ride so you can do it on the road (stuff like 15 seconds all out followed by 15 seconds rest, repeated 50 times is not going to be doable on the road). If you want to train on the road, rather than just go for rides (and going or rides is nicer!), maybe it's worth a try?

Can you send me a link to that, or describe how to find it? 
It sounds like it would be great but I had a search around on their site and couldn't find it.

Good luck on Tuesday!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 April, 2019, 03:28:41 pm
TR now has some beta program that allows you to substitute outside rides for Turbo rides. It actually simplifies the ride so you can do it on the road (stuff like 15 seconds all out followed by 15 seconds rest, repeated 50 times is not going to be doable on the road). If you want to train on the road, rather than just go for rides (and going or rides is nicer!), maybe it's worth a try?

Can you send me a link to that, or describe how to find it? 
It sounds like it would be great but I had a search around on their site and couldn't find it.

Good luck on Tuesday!

There's info on it here: https://forum.trainerroad.com/t/introducing-outside-workouts/14411
I'm not sure if the information has made it to their main website yet.

There's a peculiar form of enjoyment in testing. Plus it's the cheapest and least risky way to compete (and you can't get spat out the back). I might have a go at 'cross this year - I suspect many would view that as somewhat mental too. :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 April, 2019, 03:34:34 pm
The outside workouts thing looks like a stepping stone towards device integrated outdoor workouts.

What they've done is create a bunch of new workouts which are substituted for the plan workout if you select the outside option. These are in the form of RPE or power targets with a text description of how to do the workout. Generally this means workouts with very short intervals are replaced with something more suitable for outdoors. Also endurance rides are made longer outside, because in theory it takes longer to get the same training benefit outdoors due to not being able to pedal consistently for as long (traffic, etc).

Not tried it yet - I'm just happy to do steady rides outdoors and keep the structure indoors.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 April, 2019, 04:33:06 pm
Thanks Duncan - got it. 
Now I'll explore...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 April, 2019, 04:39:43 pm
There is some sort of integration to your Garmin coming (if it's not already here) which means that you can upload the TR workout to your Garmin and it will tell you when to go hard and when to go easy. It's Garmin specific as these integrations are through the vendor's proprietary API (I don't think Wahoo have this yet).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 26 April, 2019, 04:50:03 pm
I tested just before the Easter Arrow and my FTP had climbed further to 251w.  Nothing on turbo this week as PBP 300 qualifier tomorrow and wanted to be nice and rested.  Will get back on it at new intensities next week. Got my lung function study down at Kings  next week then a clear run till mid May and my PBP 400 qualifier.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 April, 2019, 05:02:45 pm
I have to say I'm not 100% convinced by the ramp test. I'll have to try 2x8m again at some point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 April, 2019, 08:06:38 pm
I have to say I'm not 100% convinced by the ramp test. I'll have to try 2x8m again at some point.
I think it depends on what sort of power profile you have. It was pretty good for me last year, but this year, focusing much more on sustained power and doing it in aero, I think I've lost some of the top end, and so the ramp test is less of a reliable indicator. I guess it's possible some people are just VO2 Max monsters and test beyond hei aerobic capacities as well...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 April, 2019, 09:57:39 pm
I have to say I'm not 100% convinced by the ramp test. I'll have to try 2x8m again at some point.
I think it depends on what sort of power profile you have. It was pretty good for me last year, but this year, focusing much more on sustained power and doing it in aero, I think I've lost some of the top end, and so the ramp test is less of a reliable indicator. I guess it's possible some people are just VO2 Max monsters and test beyond hei aerobic capacities as well...

I've done a VO2max test where they estimated FTP not as a % of the max minute as with TR, but from gas exchange ratios.

I tested at 220W FTP on my first test. Topped out at around 320W.

Second test, 240W FTP, topped out at around 300W with a lower VO2max.

Takeaway: the fatigue of all the riding I'd been doing resulted in a lower final minute despite having a higher threshold.

By the summer I was testing at 260W threshold, and had still not increased the top-end.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 April, 2019, 09:36:43 am
Ramp test today. Ouch.
Up from 243 to 246. Might have gone a bit higher if I hadn't done it fasted at 6am. Unfortunately we didn't have any bananas, which are basically the only fuel I can tolerate at that time and followed by hard efforts. Next time I'm going to try marzipan (loads of sugar in that and I quite like the stuff).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/55031580-ramp-test

I can't work out whether to be pleased that it's going well or frustrated it's not gone up more. I should probably focus on consistency and trying to get 300 ish TSS each week, but life keeps getting in the way.

I was listening to a podcast about the hour, and they were talking about the burning - I don't get a burning sensation in my legs - I just get to the point where I can't push the power any more (I tell them to do it and they just can't). Also for the next few hours my ribs hurt like I've been expanding them too much! Am I doing it wrong or something?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 April, 2019, 03:31:19 pm
Well done, Duncan - you are a bit ahead of me!

Interesting discussion in the few posts above on how applicable the ramp test is to people who have good endurance but lack high end power, eg me!

I've just done another one and was feeling really good, but was disappointed that I hit a wall where I couldn't turn the pedals quite suddenly.  I had been feeling really sharp and quick riding on the road over the last week, so thought I might have made a breakthrough.  Maybe I have, but not at the higher power ranges. 

It feels to me that I am quite a long way from running out of endurance, but that I run out of strength, so have to stop.  Clearly I should do:
- a 20 min FTP test
- more strength training, squats, etc. 



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 April, 2019, 03:58:04 pm
There's a couple of interesting threads on the TR forum about using a short block of VO2 workouts to help align your high end power with your endurance ability:
https://forum.trainerroad.com/t/vo2-reduction-whilst-still-acquiring-the-right-intensity-and-training-effect/12512
https://forum.trainerroad.com/t/short-intense-period-before-starting-base-chads-short-ftp-boost-plan/6875

When I finish the current build phase I might give these a go. It would be interesting to see what they can achieve. They might be more effective (for cycling) than weights etc.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 April, 2019, 08:49:56 pm
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 30 April, 2019, 09:08:55 pm
I will be back on turbo tomorrow after 14 days.  I've had the Easter Arrow and my PBP 300 in that time and wanted to be as rested as possible / didn't want to add any further fatigue.  Outdoor rides also during this time but nothing that was going to beat me up. As others have said important to manage your motivation in all of this. Got two solid weeks then my 400 comes up and then 600 two weeks after that. So they take priority as they get closer and any turbo work will just be to maintain fitness rather than try to increase it. I'd rather be rested and slightly less fit then fit but fatigued in the latter half of May.

One thing the turbo definitely doesn't help with is recalibrating the right fuelling tactics for me on my audaxes. To do that I need to get some long rides in and see what happens when I push the distance vs. Food / hydration equation then back off as I find the limits.   150-160km before eating is about my limit at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 April, 2019, 09:22:31 pm
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

A lot of people think as they get older that they can't/shouldn't do the high intensity stuff. This is a mistake! Not training the high end is likely to accelerate its decline.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 April, 2019, 09:31:34 pm
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

A lot of people think as they get older that they can't/shouldn't do the high intensity stuff. This is a mistake! Not training the high end is likely to accelerate its decline.

I’m still unconvinced that I really need a high end.  Coach seems to like me working there, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 01 May, 2019, 08:30:24 am
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

A lot of people think as they get older that they can't/shouldn't do the high intensity stuff. This is a mistake! Not training the high end is likely to accelerate its decline.

I’m still unconvinced that I really need a high end.  Coach seems to like me working there, though.

This is interesting.  I'm in the same place - and I think I always have been, since I started TTing 10 years ago at least.  Compared to clubmates I've always been relatively better at longer distances.  And I've never trained for shorter distances.

Maybe what it actually means is that I just never achieved my potential at higher end stuff and have accelerated my decline!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 01 May, 2019, 08:45:39 am
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

A lot of people think as they get older that they can't/shouldn't do the high intensity stuff. This is a mistake! Not training the high end is likely to accelerate its decline.

I use my club runs for high intensity training.  There are younger fitter better riders than me in the club (not hard to find once you get the right side of 50) and so as we take on the many little hills in Hampshire I get plenty of high intensity intervals.  I will push myself harder in pursuit of a wheel than I will on a turbo.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 May, 2019, 09:21:48 am
I've had plenty high intensity stuff in the last 4 years through rowing. Never got to the throwing up point on a bike but I've been close several times on the rowing machine in the last few years and have been heaving over the side of the boat during hard training sessions.

Part of that is being in a crew rather than riding or training as an individual, I think there's an extra motivational factor there.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 May, 2019, 09:04:10 am
Today sucked. :( Was supposed to get a 1hr 15 ride this morning, but stayed in bed with the idea of doing a 45 minute one instead. Hauled myself out of bed, and got down into the garage, where my pedals wouldn't pair to my phone. I did the warmup just connected to the trainer, which was super hard. I rebooted my phone and the pedals connected OK, so I resumed the ride, but when I got to the first power interval it was much harder and my hip/lower abs hurt, so I binned it off.

I'm getting so fed up of the hib/ab issue.  Physio says that mobility and strength are OK, and says I should continue to ride (and also do some specific strengthening exercises). If I wasn't planning on doing some TTs over the next month I'd probably just ditch the plan and ride random workouts when I want to. I don't mind sticking to the plan if I see gains, but if not...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 05 May, 2019, 11:38:18 am
Ramp test today. Ouch.
Up from 243 to 246.

...

I can't work out whether to be pleased that it's going well or frustrated it's not gone up more. I should probably focus on consistency and trying to get 300 ish TSS each week, but life keeps getting in the way.

I've just returned from a "recovery" week (aka eating pastries in Lisbon) and done my first test since early Jan: 246, up from 242 four months ago.

It appears upward progress is now glacial, and might soon peter out, at the low level of volume I'm prepared/able to do. Training over these past 4 months has gone very well: not been sick, followed the plan, swapping out for some longer outdoor rides when the sun shines, and TSS has been gently but steadily rising.

So, despite the very small FTP increase, I'm content with this, as it could be a lot worse, eg. injured, sick. For sure, I'd like to be making rapid improvements as I was one year ago, but that's not the reality, so no point in me crying over it, it's just the way it is!

I've started the Climbing Road Race plan, but increasing numbers of w/o's will hopefully get swapped for outdoor rides over the coming weeks. The goal is to hit 250 FTP by end of June, then ideally(!) reach towards 260 in September. The latter is probably a big ask, but one step at a time...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 May, 2019, 08:20:29 pm
Is your current plateau your high point?
I hit 261 last June, but a month off with a broken foot dropped me down, and I've not got back up there again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 06 May, 2019, 01:00:10 pm
Is your current plateau your high point?
I hit 261 last June, but a month off with a broken foot dropped me down, and I've not got back up there again.

Yep, Saturday's test was the highest number I've reached, so I cannot complain.

I started TR early last year, and gained accurate trainer power measurement a few months later. Each of the handful of tests I've done since then have shown slight improvements, so the "plateau" is still sloping upwards, albeit ever so gently ;) Sweet Spot Base II + Sustained Power Build, both Low Vol, together banked me an extra 4w.

"Better than going backwards" is my 50 y.o. positive take on it.

It's still progress, which I don't take for granted. eg. my partner has had two separate calf injuries from running in the past 3 months, and is making no progress.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 May, 2019, 09:13:34 pm
It's still progress is the best way of looking at it. I was very naively thinking that if I could put on 60W in 6 months last year, then starting around 240W in September, maybe I could be at 300W this summer. Now I'm just hoping that I can sort out my consistency and get a PR at some point this summer.
Last summer I did more volume (longish outside rides including team Time Trialing) and there has to be a limit to doing Low Volume, but I can only claim to approach it if I actually do it consistently I guess!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 May, 2019, 10:32:44 pm
Well I got round the Brevet Cymru 400k so I can't be hugely unfit.  300k next weekend and then one more PBP qualifier, and then I need to get some more speed in the legs for the PBP 80h limit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 May, 2019, 03:56:10 pm
Very light on the turbo the last few weeks as I work my way through my PBP qualifiers.

I'll have to say that my recovery from long efforts is taking longer this year.   I pushed very hard on Saturday's Lincolnshire Poacher 400 and ended up very cold at the finish, still shivering when I got back to my parents house.   I took Sunday off and did a 2hr recovery ride yesterday.

I could still feel some fatigue in the legs this morning.   I have done a lot of miles recently as I tried to catch up for my missed Winter but this could also be down to age catching up with me.

Anyway I have a 25 mile TT this Saturday which might blow the cobwebs away.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 May, 2019, 05:57:57 pm
My Garmin predicted 72h recovery from the 400k. That means tomorrow. I don't feel recovered today, that's for sure.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 May, 2019, 08:36:47 pm
My Garmin predicted 72h recovery from the 400k. That means tomorrow. I don't feel recovered today, that's for sure.

Last week the Garmin gave me 48hrs recovery after a 1hr turbo but 23hrs recovery after the 400.  I don’t entirely trust the algorithm.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 May, 2019, 08:41:13 pm
My Garmin predicted 72h recovery from the 400k. That means tomorrow. I don't feel recovered today, that's for sure.

Last week the Garmin gave me 48hrs recovery after a 1hr turbo but 23hrs recovery after the 400.  I don’t entirely trust the algorithm.

It generally does seem too optimistic. I think recovery from a 400 takes me weeks not hours.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 07 May, 2019, 11:09:08 pm
What is Garmin recovery time? Does the device do it or is it a Garmin connect thing?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 May, 2019, 07:06:18 am
What is Garmin recovery time? Does the device do it or is it a Garmin connect thing?

When you finish a session or ride and hit ‘save’ it gives you an estimate of your recovery time.   I think mine does it off HR zones.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 08 May, 2019, 08:41:21 am
OK, must be a recent addition to the more modern Garmins.  I'm a luddite clinging to my 705 (as 17h battery and very rarely crashes)!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 09 May, 2019, 02:43:19 pm
It's still progress,

An addendum to this...

I've mention up-thread that I seem to need a fair amount of recovery, and since commencing this season's "plan" back in November have really tried to focus on this: generally keeping volume to modest (low) levels, eating really well, getting more sleep than I used to, generally looking after myself.

Although the last few month's training only led to a couple of percent FTP improvement, I've noticed that I'm recovering faster. So long as I enter a period well rested I have on a few occasions been able to string together a bunch (block) of hard outdoor rides (ie. decent TSS) and not suffered too much (got ill or been ruined) afterwards.

This ability is a definite change (improvement) for me, and a measure of increased "fitness" not captured by the meagre FTP increase. FTP is a convenient yardstick for gauging progress but there's a lot more going on than that alone. Another reason for my optimistic take on how my plan's going.

PS this book, "Good to Go: How to Eat, Sleep and Rest Like a Champion" is excellent, taking an evidence-based approach to show that nearly every fashionable recovery technique (fad) has no effect other than placebo, bar the things named in the book's title:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/150982765X

Turns out evolution built us pretty well, sans compression recovery boots, cryotherapy booths etc.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 May, 2019, 04:56:16 pm
There's an argument that the cryo boots etc basically just make you sit still, and that's the recovery mechanism. :)

I did Kaiser this morning. It's supposed to be 6 of 3 on 3 off intervals of 120%. I did the first 3 properly, dropped to 95% for the 4th, skipped the 5th and did the last at 95%. It was as hard as expected (and I'm not totally sure I was recovered fully from my beasting on the TTT on Tuesday night)!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/55929205-kaiser

My back/ab/hip are a bit sore now (one of the reasons why I skipped interval 5), but they'll be working again by Sunday. I'm supposed to do Mount Goode +3, but I might go outside and just do a couple of laps of the local 10 course if the weather is nice.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 May, 2019, 11:47:33 am
For the first time in ages I have been able to complete the sessions planned for me.   I must have had 4 weeks where I wasn't quite working right physically and mentally, so I hope I haven't given much back.

I have my 600k this weekend and then we get into some TTs in June/July.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 17 May, 2019, 08:55:30 pm
There's an argument that the cryo boots etc basically just make you sit still, and that's the recovery mechanism. :)

No joke, that is basically it.

I was interested to learn from the book how clued up top professional sports teams are regarding this - essentially the coaches know the recovery gizmos are a crock with the benefits being "just" placebo/enforced relaxation (per your comment), but this is still worthwhile for pros where any advantage is worth the cost/hassle... An example given was of a Champions League team where, if I recall, each player was allowed to choose their own recovery treatment from a suite of options - them making their own positive choice as opposed to it being enforced upon them by coaching staff was key to a perceived benefit occurring.

Re my "training", outdoor rides have dominated recently; the TR workouts I've done have been intense above-threshold stuff as (a) I find doing this less unpalatable when on the trainer than when riding outdoors, and (b) the outdoor rides are providing plenty of the lower intensity stuff (as well as good doses of the harder stuff too...).


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 May, 2019, 09:17:28 pm
Back on TR tonight - did Avalanche Spire. This is my first time on the bike this week after 300k at the weekend and 400k the weekend before. CV fitness seems good (lower HR) but legs not so much. They complained lots.

Day off tomorrow then another hard-ish workout on Sunday before easier workouts during the week leading up to the 600k PBP qualifier.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/56005576-avalanche-spire

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 May, 2019, 10:06:36 pm
since my big week in italy three weeks ago (1300tss) i haven't yet been on a turbo and only did a couple outdoor rides. pondering whether to do a ramp test this weekend or just resume at my previous level. i have got four weeks to train before my next longish break.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 18 May, 2019, 10:37:42 am
since my big week in italy three weeks ago (1300tss) i haven't yet been on a turbo and only did a couple outdoor rides. pondering whether to do a ramp test this weekend or just resume at my previous level. i have got four weeks to train before my next longish break.

That's some training load - I trust your 320w FTP served you well up the slopey bits!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 18 May, 2019, 11:20:29 am
since my big week in italy three weeks ago (1300tss) i haven't yet been on a turbo and only did a couple outdoor rides. pondering whether to do a ramp test this weekend or just resume at my previous level. i have got four weeks to train before my next longish break.

That's some training load - I trust your 320w FTP served you well up the slopey bits!
thanks, no problem up the hills, only my right knee started aching towards the end, most likely from overuse (it happened before when going from typical few-hour rides to very long ones straight away). now two weeks later the knee feels fine again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 18 May, 2019, 02:18:56 pm
thanks, no problem up the hills, only my right knee started aching towards the end, most likely from overuse (it happened before when going from typical few-hour rides to very long ones straight away). now two weeks later the knee feels fine again.

Good to hear it's healed. I'm expecting similar sore bits (right knee being prime candidate!) when I do a ride across France in July. Cannot really prepare adequately for such a massive ramp up in volume and without recovery days. The main card I have to play is just to be as fit as possible so that the intensity of each day is generally low compared to usual riding.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 May, 2019, 06:55:33 pm
Although Friday's training was ok, today's was not. Still got heavy legs - I'm going to do zone 2 rides only between now and next weekend.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 19 May, 2019, 09:18:32 pm
Good to hear it's healed. I'm expecting similar sore bits (right knee being prime candidate!) when I do a ride across France in July. Cannot really prepare adequately for such a massive ramp up in volume and without recovery days. The main card I have to play is just to be as fit as possible so that the intensity of each day is generally low compared to usual riding.

ride across france sounds fab, especially if there is no need to rush - the knees might be fine then? did a (poor attempt at) ramp test today, it was too hot in the room and the fan wasn't cooling much, so aborted fairly early which suggested an ftp of 292. i've updated it to 310 which feels about right.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 May, 2019, 09:43:29 am
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort, and I end up being limited by how long I can breathe at a high rate (to support a cadence > 105). My normal cadence is around 90, and so hitting 115 at the end of the ramp test is probably not ideal. I remember when I did it on the dumb trainer by shifting gears, my legs felt much more like they do at the end of a TT - just unable to generate power. The last few times I end up with OK legs and sore ribs! I'm gonna try to shift up every time I go above 100rpm next time and see what happens!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/56564070-ramp-test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 28 May, 2019, 10:47:51 am
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort, and I end up being limited by how long I can breathe at a high rate (to support a cadence > 105). My normal cadence is around 90, and so hitting 115 at the end of the ramp test is probably not ideal. I remember when I did it on the dumb trainer by shifting gears, my legs felt much more like they do at the end of a TT - just unable to generate power. The last few times I end up with OK legs and sore ribs! I'm gonna try to shift up every time I go above 100rpm next time and see what happens!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/56564070-ramp-test

For the last couple of Winters I have deliberately trained at a range of cadences on the turbo and worked on my spinning.   Most of my intervals are currently done in the 100-110 range.   When I was doing sprint efforts a few weeks back I was hitting 170RPM.   I believe it can be trained but I suppose you should concentrate on specific areas rather than trying to do everything.   I do the higher cadence reps sitting up, though, as I find the breathing a bit easier.

High cadence drills certainly help on the drag strip courses where you get a tailwind.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 May, 2019, 11:24:46 am
Having struggled round 200, 400, 300 and 600 (in that order), I now have to work on fitness (but first my legs need to stop hurting) for PBP.

Not sure what plan to follow yet.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 May, 2019, 02:23:08 pm
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort, and I end up being limited by how long I can breathe at a high rate (to support a cadence > 105). My normal cadence is around 90, and so hitting 115 at the end of the ramp test is probably not ideal. I remember when I did it on the dumb trainer by shifting gears, my legs felt much more like they do at the end of a TT - just unable to generate power. The last few times I end up with OK legs and sore ribs! I'm gonna try to shift up every time I go above 100rpm next time and see what happens!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/56564070-ramp-test

For the last couple of Winters I have deliberately trained at a range of cadences on the turbo and worked on my spinning.   Most of my intervals are currently done in the 100-110 range.   When I was doing sprint efforts a few weeks back I was hitting 170RPM.   I believe it can be trained but I suppose you should concentrate on specific areas rather than trying to do everything.   I do the higher cadence reps sitting up, though, as I find the breathing a bit easier.

High cadence drills certainly help on the drag strip courses where you get a tailwind.
I fully appreciate I need to practise my spinning (I can do spin ups to 150rpm or so, so I'm terrible), but I don't think the edge of the envelope of the ramp test is the right place to be putting it into action! My ribs hurt now! I don't do drag strips, but downhills are definitely an aera I can improve on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 May, 2019, 02:31:14 pm
My downhill spinning record is 67kph on a 65" gear. That was >200rpm and I could not manage it for long.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 28 May, 2019, 03:44:37 pm
My downhill spinning record is 67kph on a 65" gear. That was >200rpm and I could not manage it for long.

Yeah, I hit the brakes well before that on the road.   At that cadence you're really just hanging on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 May, 2019, 03:48:58 pm
My downhill spinning record is 67kph on a 65" gear. That was >200rpm and I could not manage it for long.

Yeah, I hit the brakes well before that on the road.   At that cadence you're really just hanging on.

It was on the Brevet Cymru, west of Builth Wells on the A483, with a tail wind, with a roller-coaster dip and a timely gust.

I tried to match that speed at the same spot on Saturday on the 600k, with aero wheels, and gears, and could not quite match it.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 May, 2019, 10:37:43 am
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort, and I end up being limited by how long I can breathe at a high rate (to support a cadence > 105). My normal cadence is around 90, and so hitting 115 at the end of the ramp test is probably not ideal. I remember when I did it on the dumb trainer by shifting gears, my legs felt much more like they do at the end of a TT - just unable to generate power. The last few times I end up with OK legs and sore ribs! I'm gonna try to shift up every time I go above 100rpm next time and see what happens!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/56564070-ramp-test

I think it depends on your trainer but I always end ramp tests at high cadences, because it is easier on my trainer (Tacx Vortex Smart).  I'm pretty comfortable at 110-115 (on flat pedals) and find myself up there on harder intervals, including the end of the ramp test.  I could try to lower my cadence but I'd have to stop sooner. 

I also find it a bit easier in higher gears.  But I try to always keep it in the same gear as I want a replicable test, not to cheat to get a high score!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 May, 2019, 10:49:00 am
Lower cadence tends to be more muscular; higher more about heart and lungs. Intervals significantly above threshold are always >100 rpm for me, and sometimes >110.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 29 May, 2019, 04:26:30 pm
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort,

?

If on a smart trainer, your cadence should be self-selected; so if it's rising during the ramp test that's a conscious choice, right?

Or something else? eg. hitting wattage ceiling for the chosen gear???

During smart trainer ramp tests my own cadence is stable (mid 90s) until the final ~1 minute when I enter the dark tunnel and cadence begins to steadily slide towards 50s and failure.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 29 May, 2019, 05:06:22 pm
In theory it's choice. In practise I'm looking out the garage door and trying to think positive thoughts (alternating with seeing how much time has passed since I last looked at the app). ;) So I'm not trying to choose a cadence, but I'm not trying to lift it either.
When I'm in a big gear I find the floor of the trainer resistance, so that explains why I start with a relatively low cadence, but I don't know why I end up so high.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 29 May, 2019, 07:11:41 pm
In theory it's choice. In practise I'm looking out the garage door and trying to think positive thoughts (alternating with seeing how much time has passed since I last looked at the app). ;) So I'm not trying to choose a cadence, but I'm not trying to lift it either.
When I'm in a big gear I find the floor of the trainer resistance, so that explains why I start with a relatively low cadence, but I don't know why I end up so high.

Well done on the test.

Next one maybe focus on trying to maintain stable cadence throughout (until you cannot) to see how this affects the outcome?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: ian_h on 02 June, 2019, 09:34:08 am
During smart trainer ramp tests my own cadence is stable (mid 90s) until the final ~1 minute when I enter the dark tunnel and cadence begins to steadily slide towards 50s and failure.

Interesting this, I was always under the impression that on a ramp test, your cadence should remain broadly the same throughout. The moment you find yourself drifting significantly lower then stop rather than continuing to grind it out. I guess that's because at lower cadences you're using muscular strength instead of aerobic power to turn the pedals which maybe could over-estimate your FTP?

Never seen anything about increasing cadence at the end though. I guess an increased cadence still uses heart and lungs, so that's ok. I'm usually focussed on hanging on for grim death by the end, so never thought about increasing cadence. Hmm...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 02 June, 2019, 12:01:37 pm
I was always under the impression that on a ramp test, your cadence should remain broadly the same throughout. The moment you find yourself drifting significantly lower then stop rather than continuing to grind it out.

The advice from TR for their ramp test protocol is to go for as long as you can until you cannot maintain target power: "go until failure".

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/385142

"Stay seated for the entire test, and don't worry about any specific cadence. Simply turn the pedals until you can't reach the goal power any longer. The test is complete as soon as you are unable to pedal or your watts begin dropping, and there is no benefit to continuing once your watts start to fall."


NB in Erg mode, where the trainer forces you to match target power, this means the test protocol is to go until your legs stop.

The number you get from this test is just an input for scaling training workouts, and while not perfect I've found it to be pretty good for that purpose, eg.:
- following my test in January subsequent "SSB II" workouts initially felt a bit too hard and to avoid too many failures I manually knocked the FTP number down a touch (before later raising it);
- following my test in May the "Climbing Road Race" workouts have felt spot on, no failures to-date, and perhaps I could raise it a touch.

I think if you do these workouts a lot and have been doing them for a long time you should get to know how they should feel, so could probably set your ftp number manually with good "accuracy", with any test protocol mainly acting as a periodic "sanity check" on the number you've set.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: ian_h on 02 June, 2019, 09:36:22 pm
The advice from TR for their ramp test protocol is to go for as long as you can until you cannot maintain target power: "go until failure".

No idea why I was under that impression - thanks for clarifying. Will go to failure on my next ramp test (tend to do it on Zwift using the Alpe as motivation rather than Trainer Road) instead of when I cannot maintain cadence and see what happens.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 June, 2019, 04:48:04 pm
I'm targeting a CTL of around 100 for the start of PBP.

This is going to require a lot of training.  It's 68 today.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 June, 2019, 11:18:35 am
Turbo work this week has gone fine.   On top of commuting and a big block of Audax just finishing I'm feeling a bit fatigued now.   Weather for tomorrow looks a little breezy so I'll knock the planned ride on the TT bike on the head and just do a few steady hours.   I may be finally growing up and knowing when to dial things back.

The next 3 weeks are TT weeks so I go 50/100/50 on consecutive weekends all on fast DC courses.   It's then 3 weeks to the Mersey 24hr which I have yet to enter.   I probably need to take a call on that soon.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 17 June, 2019, 09:38:42 am
   It's then 3 weeks to the Mersey 24hr which I have yet to enter.   I probably need to take a call on that soon.

Depends on what you have planned after the 24Hr.  I planned a fast PBP 6 weeks after a 24Hr in 2011, and I struggled 300km into PBP and had to ease back.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 17 June, 2019, 02:27:10 pm
   It's then 3 weeks to the Mersey 24hr which I have yet to enter.   I probably need to take a call on that soon.

Depends on what you have planned after the 24Hr.  I planned a fast PBP 6 weeks after a 24Hr in 2011, and I struggled 300km into PBP and had to ease back.

If all goes to plan I may end up doing :-

National 24hr
National 12hr
PBP

There are 3 weeks between the 24 and the 12 and then 1 week to PBP.   As you say, experience shows that getting good recovery after the 24 is hard.   I suspect I'll need to take the 12 easier but it is on a fast course.   I'm going in the 90hr group again on PBP with an aim of getting round in circa 72hrs like last time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 June, 2019, 05:33:50 pm
I did two 1h30 rowing sessions on the water on Saturday. Skipped breakfast.

Sunday was ECE of Bristol Randonnee 100k to 220k (212k for Auk purposes). The first stage of the 100k was pretty hilly (with more to come) and then on the ride home I had to do that bit again - hard going - and then ride over the Mendips to get home from Fome. Garmin recorded 2750m climbing overall, so it was pretty hard work.

Am I sore anywhere today? Nope. Tired, yes. But not sore.

Finally got some long distance fitness/resilience.

FTP at 240 doesn't seem unrealistic now. I think it should be 250 by PBP - so the same as last time. I'm still on track for a CTL of around 100 on the 18th August. Planning to do several more 200s between now and then as well as the midweek turbo stuff, and some rowing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 June, 2019, 04:51:05 pm
It's all kind of fallen apart for me. 

I feel in reasonable shape when I'm on the bike but doing a couple of 400s at the end of May, then holidays has blown apart my turboing.  As a result I've only done 4 rides other than local errands since 1 June, a total of 250km.

Now I've got a chest infection and don't really want to push things too hard until it shifts.  Am on day 4 of the antibiotics but still coughing horribly.

June was meant to be a big month but it didn't happen.  I've basically tapered a month too early!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 June, 2019, 04:52:22 pm
Getting things going again: 4x20 sweet spot in Richmond Park this afternoon. 
Felt good and was able to c.10% higher power than TR told me to do. 
Not done a test for ages but feel power is probably up. 

Need to spend an hour planning my final month to TCR.  May skip one of the audaxes I entered for the next two weekends. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 June, 2019, 05:27:05 pm
That's good - I guess the cough is gone now?

I've been persuaded to do a bit more rowing on the basis that I'll be in a decent crew rather than a scratch crew. I've planned everything out to PBP and TrainingPeaks predicts I'll have a higher CTL at PBP than in 2015 => it's not going to derail things.

Weight is static but my waist has come down by 1.5 inches over the last few months => leaning out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 27 June, 2019, 10:57:00 am
I think it is starting to go, but probably take another week or so.  Back to Doc next Thursday for follow up.  But can't sit around de-training for the next  4 weeks.

Funnily enough my weight is down.  I've not measured my waste but trousers feel tight so am paranoid that my muscle has turned to blubber!

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 June, 2019, 11:58:28 pm
Tough one this evening in the heat. 4x12m over-unders. 1h30 in all and produced my highest 1h power so far in 2029.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 28 June, 2019, 09:18:53 am
Tough one this evening in the heat. 4x12m over-unders. 1h30 in all and produced my highest 1h power so far in 2029.

You've been writing and testing code for time-machines again, haven't you?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 June, 2019, 09:58:35 am
Tough one this evening in the heat. 4x12m over-unders. 1h30 in all and produced my highest 1h power so far in 2029.

You've been writing and testing code for time-machines again, haven't you?

 :facepalm:

Chanelling Lisa Simpson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV7HGsYWAkU

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 June, 2019, 10:18:48 am
Good performance in the heat!  I was up at 5 this morning thinking of doing some under and overs in the cool air.  But started coughing like a 40-a-day man so decided against it.  Will see how I feel later on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 28 June, 2019, 04:50:28 pm
Well into my so-called taper now, one week 'til blast off. I've kind of had enough of doing rock hard workouts for the time being, so the timing is apt. In fine warm weather I prefer cruising along on my bike rather than turning myself inside out too much.

My fitness (power) is good, so barring mishaps, the most likely upset to my jaunt down France will be from the wear and tear of sitting on and pedalling a bike every day for a couple of weeks. I could maybe have done more prep for this aspect, but as it is, my joints and "contact points" will have to learn on the job a little ;D

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 June, 2019, 05:21:58 pm
Well done on reaching the lull before the storm!

I've just done a ramp test.  Tl;Dr, it was crap but not as bad as I feared and I've got excuses.

First one I've done for a couple of months. Was good to get back into it and Calibrate where I am.
Ftp was actually a couple of per cent up from last time, but still down by 5%on where I was around March.

Excuses
I'm recovering from a chest infection and have a cold, so it could have been worse and didn't really push it all the way at the end.
The ramp test is the wrong way for me to measure Ftp as I've not trained for high end efforts. I did a 4 x 20 two days ago at virtually the same power (outdoors, so different, but still) as this Ftp measurement

I've got four weeks, or 3 + taper, to try and push it up as much as I can. I'd like 10-12%. That depends on me shaking off my lurgis.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 28 June, 2019, 08:34:43 pm
Still down to 1 or 2 turbos a week, squeezed between TTs.  I’ve just re-written my plans between now and September to try to fit everything in and still get appropriate recovery.  Something might slip.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 29 June, 2019, 10:44:08 am
Well done on reaching the lull before the storm!

Thanks.

The progressive structure provided by the TR plans has proved invaluable for me - as has TR's Calendar which I initially thought I'd never even use. There's no way I'd have managed such a consistent preparation without  a tool like TR (other alternatives available etc...) helping me along.

Good luck with the lurgy!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 June, 2019, 01:40:30 pm
229km yesterday. ECEing the Avon cycleway 130 - which turned out to be a 138. Was late to start so no food until 90km at the first control (two Tunnock's Caramel Wafers). Avocado toast at next control, two packets of crisps at Saltford, and no food at the finish before riding home. Add to that 5 gels and two bars on the bike. Nothing in my water. Max temp 31 deg C. Light breakfast before I set off of yoghurt, banana, grapes.

If nothing else is proved by that, I think my fat burning is improved.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 July, 2019, 11:30:56 am
I did Spanish Needle outside yesterday. The instructions called for some warm up efforts, followed by 15 seconds >350W, 15 seconds rest, repeated 16 times, done 3 times with 5 minutes between each batch of 16. I guess I could have got my stopwatch to do a countdown, but I essentially just counted to 15 over and over. It meant that I lost count of the number of reps I did!
I guess I overdid it - on the turbo >350W means 354, but on the road it means varying between 300 and 450! It should have been 92 TSS and ended up at 129. Ooops.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/58348492-spanish-needle-outdoors-

Initially I found it hard to hit the Watts without looking at the headunit too much on the road, but after a while I was much better at measuring my effort - I didn't do many under 400W though. I think it would be better to do longer intervals on the road rather than these tiny ones, but it was seriously hard and I assume it would have the desired training effect.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 July, 2019, 09:50:27 am
Wow - well done in doing that on the road!

Yes, I find short, sharp efforts are much easier (and safer!) on the turbo.  OTOH I find it far easier to do intervals over 10 minutes outside.  What I would really love would be a long hill with a smooth surface and gentle, steady gradient for doing intervals.  I've not found one within an hour's ride of here.  The road through Epping Forest is good, but busy, and a few roads up the dip slope of the Chiltern Ridge

As my chest infection is abating, I tried VO2 max intervals this morning.  But I couldn't keep the power on and had to dial it back by 15%, essentially down to threshold, in order to complete the session, so probably not so much benefit from it.  Will tweak my programme to take out the VO2 max stuff for the next week and put in sweet spot instead. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 July, 2019, 09:57:35 am
Makes sense to do sweet spot until your lungs are full back up to speed. I know what you mean about the ideal hill for a decent interval. There aren't many around here that are long enough, and loads have kickers in that really mess with the W.

I overdid that workout - my back has been complaining since, so I had to skip the scheduled workouts this week (and I also missed a club TT last night on a really fast course - pretty much everyone got a PB :( ). Hopefully it will be OK by next week as there's a summer CX series I want to try.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 July, 2019, 02:58:49 pm
Did a workout down at the rowing club last night, which is 10x1m:1r. I didn't know quite where I'd be, I thought I'd aim for a 1:50 split. I did 1:45.

I dug out a pic of the rowing machine screen from almost exactly 3 years ago; 1:47.2 split and I died in the last few intervals.

Something is going right. Three weeks after that 2016 effort I did my 2K PB. That's got me thinking about whether I could go a bit faster now. It also makes me wonder if my threshold has increased by more than I think - this will be answered on Tuesday.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 12 July, 2019, 03:28:13 pm
Sounds good!

I've had a good day as well - completed a VO2 max interval set (Dade +6, 8 x 3.5mins at 115% of threshold).  First time I've managed that for a while, couldn't do it last week. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 July, 2019, 04:54:23 pm
Sounds good!

I've had a good day as well - completed a VO2 max interval set (Dade +6, 8 x 3.5mins at 115% of threshold).  First time I've managed that for a while, couldn't do it last week.

That sounds like a tough one. I've not done any of the longer VO2max ones for a while. I guess your lungs are back on point?

The racing tomorrow is potentially not going to be that good. Of the 4 in my crew, only two of us did the workout. One didn't have time because of work, fair enough. The other said he was too tired from our session on Tuesday. Given that to win the regatta we're going to have to row 3x1000m races, this doesn't bode well. Plus we're rowing in an 8 as well. If we lose in the first round of the 4+ I will be tempted to go for a ride in the evening - even though I'm racing again Sunday.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 July, 2019, 03:46:21 pm
Well made a final on Sunday so it wasn't a total write off. That was in a crew I'd never been in before. Huh.

Anyway, I did VO2max & aerobic base/threshold ramp test on Tuesday.

The bad: VO2max has dropped to 45 (may have gone a little higher as I stopped before failure, but no need to push that far as I was training later). Older, and heavier.

The mediocre: threshold at 240W. This is what I'd estimated myself already, so no surprise.

The good: aerobic base point 210W. Basically I can stay in the fat burning zone to much higher intensity than before (It was 140W last time, with a much higher threshold).

Bottom line is I can hopefully ride at a reasonable pace for PBP and stay fat burning. I'm pretty sure this is down to my recent training being focused on long rides rather than turbo time.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 July, 2019, 04:22:40 pm
How are you testing these?  Face mask and blood lactate? I'm really curious about the process of testing, though I'm not sure I want to do it myself!

I finally got around to trying out the free 5 day pass at the gym on Monday and Tuesday.  Not been in ages, so got quite a lot of DOMS, but hopefully I can join (at a reasonable rate) and then do some lifting during lunchtime in addition to my Trainer Road stuff. That should help my back in addition to helping maintain muscle and bone mass. I did Pettit yesterday as it's a "Recovery" week, but I'm hoping to get to race CX again tonight (depends on how late my daughter is back from her school trip). I loved it last week, and though I didn't crash I had a lot of "saves" where I washed out my front wheel, so I've changed my saddle and moved my position forwards and lower at the front - hopefully I will have fewer issues with front end grip. I also need to remember that it's basically a series of VO2 Max efforts with some cornering in between, not a time trial where you pedal at the same power for as long as possible! The MTB position still feels weird, so if I do the whole of the summer CX series and still like it at the end I might consider doing n-1, n+1 to get onto a proper CX bike. Should also mean I can do some of the local gravel stuff next year too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 18 July, 2019, 04:45:56 pm
How are you testing these?  Face mask and blood lactate? I'm really curious about the process of testing, though I'm not sure I want to do it myself!

Face mask only - both measuring O2 consumption and CO2 produced. The ratio of the two (respiratory quotient) changes as fat burning/carbohydrate ratio changes.

It would be interesting to compare a blood lactate test - I've only done this once, back in 2009. I think my LT1 was around 150W again there, and LT2 was 225W; this would have been in a fairly detrained state.

Re the test - it is basically just like doing a TR ramp test. I felt absolutely fine throughout, obviously at the end I was breathing hard and my legs were sore but nothing I didn't have three times at the weekend in rowing races. I didn't go to full exhaustion, as it's not needed with the RQ measurement. As it happens based on my maximal power in this effort, TR would have said 240W threshold as well. I could have gone into another minute, but I'm not sure how far. In 2009 I maxed out at 375W and completed the final minute; TR would show a 270W threshold based on this but it was actually 225W on blood lactate levels. That was brutal though and helped on with being egged on by the tester.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 18 July, 2019, 07:11:10 pm
Sounds interesting. Do you think that the data it gives you are valuable? Does it only apply to cycling, or does it inform your rowing as well?
School trip returned late enough I missed my 'cross race. :(  I will try to get out on the weekend and smash it around some paths and fields and stuff. Unfortunately I don't know anywhere around here where I can combine actual hard riding with cornering practise, so I'll keep the aerobic work on the turbo (or maybe the rollers - I'm learning to ride them!) and the technique stuff separate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 19 July, 2019, 10:54:25 am
Sounds interesting. Do you think that the data it gives you are valuable? Does it only apply to cycling, or does it inform your rowing as well?
School trip returned late enough I missed my 'cross race. :(  I will try to get out on the weekend and smash it around some paths and fields and stuff. Unfortunately I don't know anywhere around here where I can combine actual hard riding with cornering practise, so I'll keep the aerobic work on the turbo (or maybe the rollers - I'm learning to ride them!) and the technique stuff separate.

That's a sham on the race. Having a good aerobic base will provide the basis for building higher level fitness later on. I performed pretty well on the rowing machine last week in the 10x1m workout we did. Better than 3 years ago - so probably it's beneficial. Good aerobic base helps with recycling lactic acid from high intensity work.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 30 July, 2019, 01:23:41 pm
A number of people use their commute as ‘base training’ with appropriate harder sessions added in/on top.  I don’t have a suitable commute - any suggestions for TrainerRoad sessions that would be good to use as a fake commute in addition to other workouts?

I’m assuming 30/45/60 mins not too hard but with some verity in the workload?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 July, 2019, 01:36:16 pm
A number of people use their commute as ‘base training’ with appropriate harder sessions added in/on top.  I don’t have a suitable commute - any suggestions for TrainerRoad sessions that would be good to use as a fake commute in addition to other workouts?

I’m assuming 30/45/60 mins not too hard but with some verity in the workload?

Taku, Carter, Pettit, Whorl. 30-75 minutes.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 July, 2019, 02:10:52 pm
Baxter for a longer one.  Volunteer for a short one (I do this after Ramp tests or if I have something brutal scheduled and I quit).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 July, 2019, 08:55:44 pm
Back on the turbo tonight after a 2 week break.  Wasn’t as bad as I thought it was going to be.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 July, 2019, 09:26:20 pm
Back for me after a bit of rowing to break things up. Brutal vo2max workout that has left me quite broken.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 31 July, 2019, 09:45:44 am
There's broken and broken! ;)

I did a ramp test last night. Stopped early because my right lower back hurt (though I was dying at that point), so it recommended a drop of 14W.
I went inside, opened the freezer to see what I could have for dinner after my shower, tried to catch the thing that fell out and my back completely spasmed up.  ::-) It's eased off a bit now (for a while last night I could barely move), but I definitely couldn't ride my bike right now, and I wanted to race CX tomorrow. :( I have physio booked for tonight, and I joined a gym yesterday (!) so hopefully I can do some exercises and get it all working again for next week.
Might take my daughter along tomorrow for the kids race instead of racing myself.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 07 August, 2019, 08:03:34 pm
Taku, Carter, Pettit, Whorl. 30-75 minutes.

Baxter for a longer one.  Volunteer for a short one (I do this after Ramp tests or if I have something brutal scheduled and I quit).

Thanks both, i’ve tried most of these over the last week & seem to be fitting in pretty well with some informal sessions before I start a base plan in a couple of weeks (don’t want to start one then go on holiday for 4 days straight away  :facepalm:)

I also tried pettit +1, which has a couple of extra spikes at the end.  I don’t think I really noticed before quite how many variants some of these sessions have, looks like a great way to tweak a plan depending on how you feel  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 09 August, 2019, 08:53:21 am
I've just returned from a "recovery" week (aka eating pastries in Lisbon) and done my first test since early Jan: 246, up from 242 four months ago.

It appears upward progress is now glacial, and might soon peter out, at the low level of volume I'm prepared/able to do. Training over these past 4 months has gone very well: not been sick, followed the plan, swapping out for some longer outdoor rides when the sun shines, and TSS has been gently but steadily rising.

So, despite the very small FTP increase, I'm content with this, as it could be a lot worse, eg. injured, sick. For sure, I'd like to be making rapid improvements as I was one year ago, but that's not the reality, so no point in me crying over it, it's just the way it is!

I've started the Climbing Road Race plan, but increasing numbers of w/o's will hopefully get swapped for outdoor rides over the coming weeks. The goal is to hit 250 FTP by end of June, then ideally(!) reach towards 260 in September. The latter is probably a big ask, but one step at a time...

The slow but steady progress continues...

Tested at 253 (~3.6 w/kg), up from 246 in May, after a big increase in volume; much of the riding (the volume increase) was outside, which has been fun, but lacks the structure and some of the intensity that can be so effective in making FTP improvements.

I'm very happy with this progression. No real injuries or sickness this year, and I've been able to follow a plan relatively uninterrupted, so I've been lucky and hence absolutely no complaints from me.

Next scheduled test is for early Oct, and if I'm still able to follow the plan until then, doing some HIT type stuff, I could be within reach of 260 which has been my (pointless ;)) "ambition" for this year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 10 August, 2019, 07:29:55 pm
nice steady progress rdtrdt, 4w/kg looks likely by next season!

i've been off from turbo sessions for four months and just riding about outside, mostly in zone2 with occasional harder rides. i've jumped back on it and for 6 x 8min intervals which i've lowered by 5% from threshold to sweet spot. surprisingly legs felt fine although i was overheating badly. managed to finish all six of them with no interruptions, at 300w and 162bpm av.
i estimate my ftp fell by ~15w in the past four months, but that's alright. i get dropped when i turn up at a fast chaingang and strangely i find that motivating.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 11 August, 2019, 10:50:40 am
nice steady progress rdtrdt, 4w/kg looks likely by next season!

Thanks! I'm trying to not look to far ahead, so next w/kg goal is 3.75 by next Spring. Any earlier would be a bonus.

i've been off from turbo sessions for four months and just riding about outside, mostly in zone2 with occasional harder rides. i've jumped back on it and for 6 x 8min intervals which i've lowered by 5% from threshold to sweet spot. surprisingly legs felt fine although i was overheating badly. managed to finish all six of them with no interruptions, at 300w and 162bpm av.

Sounds good.

Re cooling, these Cleva Vacmaster Air Mover fans are excellent (long thread!):
https://forum.trainerroad.com/t/uk-users-looking-for-a-lasko-fan-check-this-out-thanks-to-hugo1/9554/155

Discount code: trainerroad10
 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 20 August, 2019, 02:59:51 pm
I've been keeping on with the TR sessions, but I find that after a TT I can't do the high intensity ones - I either get back pain or psoas pain. TT season is almost over, so I'm gonna can that now and spend the autumn/winter doing TR for training, and cross racing for fun. I also joined a gym, so I'm doing some weights as I think it will help stabilise my core (thus avoiding those TT induced issues) and also because I like it and it's good for me!
Not sure my W/kg has been going anywhere, but testing has been a chore and I've quit the last couple thanks to the back tightness. I'm probably still around the 250W, 78kg I was at the start of the year!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 29 August, 2019, 03:04:46 pm
Back on the turbo this week but not really feeling it.  3 more weeks and then my year is over and time for a proper break.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 August, 2019, 03:18:09 pm
Break? I'm targeting Fours Head on 23rd November.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 29 August, 2019, 03:29:38 pm
Break? I'm targeting Fours Head on 23rd November.

Tired.....been a hard but fruitful year.   Next year will be a bit different.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 30 August, 2019, 01:27:16 pm
I've had a week off because of a minor saddle sore (helpfully it coincided with a summer school my wife runs which resulted in >12,000 steps each day and also with my recovery week!).
Cyclocross starts on September the 15th. I figure I'll probably start Sweet Spot Base next week - I can run that alongside weight lifting and swap one workout a week for a 'cross race. With any luck I can also slot in some skills work - that would probably make a lot more difference to my performance than any turbo sessions. The vague plan is to continue the Sweet Spot Base until the end of 'cross season (January), then do some traditional base (maybe on my rollers) and then start the build for the TT season again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 31 August, 2019, 02:30:38 pm
I'm not doing anything at the moment, which I'm quite enjoying. 

In the month since my 6 days of TCR, I've done 1 x 100km ride (to see a physio), 3 or 4 trips into town and a tour round the Isle of Wight with camping kit and passenger.  Glanced at Strava yesterday and was surprised to see that it said I had done a similar number of hours in August as in Jan, Feb and March!  But I guess almost half of it was my last day of TCR on Aug 1. 

Don't want to drift for too long, but I need an objective in order to train. First step is to have a chat with my wife about what is feasible for me to do next year, given family constraints and priorities, and work back from there. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 September, 2019, 11:51:41 am
Ramp test before breakfast. Expected a drop post PBP. Legs felt heavy. 244W which is I think the highest score this year. And I’ve lost weight so just crept over 3W/kg.

 ???
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 September, 2019, 01:21:09 pm
Opposite for me. No cycling for a week but kept active. Didn't sleep well, but that's not responsible for the 251-> 227 this morning. It felt like work from fairly early on and I barely cracked 300W.  :-X
On the other hand, the weights that I can lift are going up reasonably rapidly (from a fairly low base).  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 September, 2019, 12:53:05 pm
Back on it yesterday, new FTP ok so far. I'm doing sweet spot base mid volume, and swapping in rowing water sessions when they clash, and also aiming to double stack a couple of days in the week so it will be closer to high volume in total.

Planning out the next few weeks shows that my current (post PBP) CTL will only be maintained if I stick to this - it will be a tall order to do more I think.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 September, 2019, 01:04:25 pm
I discovered why Nate likes Baxter on Sunday. You can just sit on the (smart) trainer and watch something on TV, without needing to divert attention to the intervals you're doing. I watched a whole load of CX races on CXHairs Youtube channel. :)
The harder workouts are just too difficult to do this with.  :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 11 September, 2019, 01:32:48 pm
i'll be restarting turbo workouts in a week or two. ease into it with 12 weeks of low volume base, then do the whole programme (including ssb) in mid volume - if all goes well.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 September, 2019, 01:53:08 pm
I discovered why Nate likes Baxter on Sunday. You can just sit on the (smart) trainer and watch something on TV, without needing to divert attention to the intervals you're doing. I watched a whole load of CX races on CXHairs Youtube channel. :)
The harder workouts are just too difficult to do this with.  :(

I can watch a football match on a long sweet-spot workout but higher intensity requires music. I'm doing Baxter tonight and I'll try to pick some film or watch a couple of Netflix shows.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 11 September, 2019, 01:57:32 pm
I'm packing my turbo away in a week.   I hope you all enjoy your Q4 as much as I'm going to enjoy mine.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 11 September, 2019, 04:49:54 pm
I basically just enjoyed riding my bike aerobically in the spring and early summer culminating in a 600km 5 day wild camp trip round northern france.
I then came home, hit a curb on bike path and broke my collar bone so no work for me.
Now that I am almost better I have just restarted.  FTP on the trainer road ramp is now 168 down from 210 which is not unreasonable as I had done absolutely no top end stuff for ages.

Then some sweet spot work yesterday and sprints today and it feels about right.  Another 2 weeks and I should be allowed outside on the bike and can also restart the weight training.

I have signed up for the audax leg next summer to give me an incentive.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 17 September, 2019, 08:40:59 am
Week 5 of sweet spot base mid I is finally here :)

After years of full value audaxing i’ve enjoyed the routine of riding at least 5 days a week with some focused sessions.  My legs feel fatigued but certainly stronger.  I need to work out how best to reintroduce longer outdoor rides into coming plans, i’m not keen on dropping to a low plan as it’ll let me coast, I think i’ll Stick with mid level, but have an easier day or two either side of the audax ride.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 September, 2019, 03:17:29 pm
I've done nothing since TCR.  But I've kept the Trainerroad subscription up and will start some base sessions once I've shaken off my cold. 
Although I might be about to get busy with work, which would postpone things.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 September, 2019, 03:28:03 pm
I am free of the need to train.  FREE I tell you.   Looking to put at least a stone on before Christmas.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 23 September, 2019, 05:34:37 pm
I am free of the need to train.  FREE I tell you.   Looking to put at least a stone on before Christmas.

I'm looking to lose a stone before Xmas, can I pass it on to you directly?  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 30 September, 2019, 05:21:40 pm
I am free of the need to train.  FREE I tell you.   Looking to put at least a stone on before Christmas.

I'm looking to lose a stone before Xmas, can I pass it on to you directly?  ;D

Is this the right queue for "Donate your flab to Rob"?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 30 September, 2019, 05:54:29 pm
After Sweet Spot Base 1 plan my FTP is up 9% :)  Am certainly feeling stronger, so it's all good  :thumbsup:

Maybe this is the 'new me' who can stick more closely to these plans...  You never know, the aspirations to ride something like RATN next year could become reality.  Lets see if I can stick to the next 4 weeks of plans, and start building in some longer outdoor rides first  :o

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 30 September, 2019, 09:39:20 pm
I am free of the need to train.  FREE I tell you.   Looking to put at least a stone on before Christmas.

I'm looking to lose a stone before Xmas, can I pass it on to you directly?  ;D

Is this the right queue for "Donate your flab to Rob"?

Don’t need it.  My own collection has is coming along quite nicely.   Pass the dairy milk.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 01 October, 2019, 11:24:06 pm
well, the ramp test (in tt position) today suggested ftp of 250w, my aim is to get near 300w in spring. the first 20w should be easy as i've not done any high intensity work since spring, the rest will require hard work as usual.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 02 October, 2019, 01:11:27 pm
well, the ramp test (in tt position) today suggested ftp of 250w, my aim is to get near 300w in spring. the first 20w should be easy as i've not done any high intensity work since spring, the rest will require hard work as usual.

Ohh, that's interesting, how much do you find the ramp test results fluctuate during the season?  Is 250-300 (ie ~20% swing) usual?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 02 October, 2019, 01:20:13 pm
That'll depend on what your training / riding looks like throughout the year and whether you take breaks and / or reduce volume / intensity and allow your fitness to drop.  Between Winter and Spring last year my FTP rose 60 watts.  I expect my FTP has dropped back down again and will see a similar increase when I get back into some structured training this coming Winter / Spring. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 02 October, 2019, 01:29:52 pm
well, the ramp test (in tt position) today suggested ftp of 250w, my aim is to get near 300w in spring. the first 20w should be easy as i've not done any high intensity work since spring, the rest will require hard work as usual.

Ohh, that's interesting, how much do you find the ramp test results fluctuate during the season?  Is 250-300 (ie ~20% swing) usual?

it all depends on the riding and training schedule/volume/intensity. i wouldn't say it's usual, but it's possible over half a year, depending on a starting point (beginner gains are the easiest). without the intensity (i.e. intervals, chaingangs, racing, hills at max effort) ftp drops quite fast, but it also doesn't take that long (3-4 months?) to get back to previous level after longer lay off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 02 October, 2019, 02:57:00 pm
Next scheduled test is for early Oct, and if I'm still able to follow the plan until then, doing some HIT type stuff, I could be within reach of 260 which has been my (pointless ;)) "ambition" for this year.

Ramp rested at 260w ~3.7 w/kg, so mission accomplished for my "pointless ambition" for the year!  :thumbsup:

Very happy with that, didn't think or expect to manage it. Seems the TR HIT Maintenance plan combined with some longer outdoor rides paid off.

Off to Mallorca now for a spot of cycling / R&R, and on returning will begin the new plan for another year of suffering: 4 weeks Trad Base-ish, then the usual Sweet Spot Base 1 & 2, Sustained Power Build, Speciality (Climbing Road Race). Essentially the same as last year but planning on a bit more volume in the first half compared to last time.

The past 10 or 11 months have gone just about as well as they could: no injuries, major sickness or showstopper life events to disrupt the plan, so very, very lucky. I'll be amazed if the planets align so fortuitously for me over this next year, but you never know...

My goal remains to push towards 280w (~4w/kg) by some undefined future date. This time next year? I think the chances of that are virtually zero, but I'll follow the plan and see where I end up. I'd be quite content to stay around this level, which is fitter than I've ever been before, and really won't be disappointed if progress is very slow, minimal or non-existent from here onwards.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bernster on 07 October, 2019, 11:45:22 am
Did my first Trainer Road sessions on my new Kickr Core on Saturday (including a ramp test), having been using a dumb wheel on trainer over the past 3 years. To say I'm impressed is an understatement - what made me take the plunge into the smart trainer world was a culmination of things. Firstly when I started, I wasn't sure how much use I'd get out of a turbo so didn't want to spend loads, but using Trainer Road and seeing my fitness increase over that time (translated into making Audaxing less painful in the real world) has led to it getting plenty of use. Secondly, I managed to have a series of punctures with the wheel on trainer (suspect it was dodgy rim tape, but never managed to pinpoint the issue), which frustratingly led to sessions being ended early, and a lot of wasted time and effort. Thirdly, I've read lots of positive things about erg mode on here, specifically that you don't have to match power targets yourself, you just pedal and the trainer does it for you. Lastly, being a bit of a stats geek, I like the idea of getting a more accurate idea of my true power output (albeit with some error margin), rather than relying on the Trainer Road power curve for my dumb trainer, which is impacted to at least some extent by a host of outside factors.

What I noticed immediately was how good the trainer felt to use - from the weight of the thing, it's clearly got a substantial flywheel, but it really did feel nice to ride once I'd got it up to speed. The ramp test was a revelation - on the dumb trainer I found these really challenging, as every step up meant I had to find a bit of extra power, and adjust cadence accordingly - it's hard to look at a screen and make minor tweaks at the right times when you're working up to max effort. Every time I did one, I was convinced that I was under-testing, to the point where I reverted to doing FTP tests using the 20 minute steady effort test as it was returning better results. The ramp test on the Core was really just as easy as maintaining my chosen cadence, and not even needing to look at the screen - things get harder, you keep the pedals turning and then you hit a point where you fall off a cliff and you stop. I genuinely don't think I could have gone on for any longer, and am happy that the FTP that Trainer Road spat out was fair.

I did an 30 minute session after I'd recovered a bit (Taku), and again appreciated not having to focus on hitting the target power - I can see that the longer, less intense sessions will now give an opportunity to watch TV, or focus on some other distraction. My winter training begins in earnest this Thursday, with sweetspot base low volume (as usual), so it'll be interesting to compare this with how the efforts felt on the wheel on trainer, and how any fitness improvements compare between the two.

So far a very happy user - I know I don't post often on this thread, but have appreciated the thoughts and input of various contributors over the years, so thought I'd share my experiences too.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bludger on 07 October, 2019, 11:48:32 am
I really couldn't believe how good the wahoo was either - I can't afford one for myself but my club has a preferential deal with a studio that does group sessions using the trainers every week. My ramp test lasted 31 minutes, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that on the bike or with a 'dumb trainer'.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 07 October, 2019, 02:42:16 pm
a decent smart trainer makes a huge difference to the quality of training sessions. it removes most of excuses not to train. i've restarted sweet spot base two weeks ago, now looking to get a pair of bluetooth sports headphones. it would be cool if there was automatic volume adjustment linked to current heart rate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 08 October, 2019, 12:52:21 pm
It's not the cost of something it's the value it brings. Happy NEO user.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 October, 2019, 01:06:07 pm
Just done ramp test. +4W from a month ago, and +19W from 12 months ago.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 12 October, 2019, 12:11:11 pm
So far a very happy user -   :thumbsup:

Good to hear. A high quality (smart) trainer made a lot of difference for me and is some of the best bike-related money I've ever spent.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 12 October, 2019, 12:12:10 pm
Just done ramp test. +4W from a month ago, and +19W from 12 months ago.

Well done, that's a decent increase.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 November, 2019, 09:46:40 pm
I am free of the need to train.  FREE I tell you.   Looking to put at least a stone on before Christmas.

This is going great.   I was planning to get back training in January but I fear things may be buggered up by a house move.   Might pack things up a bit earlier if I can regain my mojo.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 07 November, 2019, 08:20:45 am
I was planning to get back in October, but I thought I'd wait until November.  But now the election has got called so that won't happen.  I doubt I'll start two weeks before Christmas, so probably January as well for me.

Good luck with house move, Rob!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: dat on 07 November, 2019, 08:43:08 am
I've started doing some sweet spot training once a week for the past month. My FTP has gone from 249w to 260w @ 68kg this puts me just over 3.8w/kg.

The thing is I don't know if the gain is due to turbo work, something I have never done before or I have just got better at the ramp test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 November, 2019, 11:28:44 pm
I think the ramp test is less prone to test familiarisation effect than 2x8 or the 20m test. YMMV.

I am on SSB MV 2 at present. I’m signed up for Disaster Day on 14th Dec which coincides with the end of the recovery week. FTP dropped after a two week break and I’m not retesting until after Disaster.  :hand:

Tonight’s plan was Jepson. But I fancied more of a challenge so did Prater and added 30m on with some endurance. Passed the test. If my FTP is set too high Prater will let me know.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 22 November, 2019, 09:59:57 am
I'm just doing Traditional Base 1, because I'm getting abdominal pain when doing high intensity efforts (and I'm waiting for a scan on a suspected hernia). I'm enjoying the ability to watch Youtube while riding,  and I'm going to add some extra volume because I'm feeling pretty recovered by the next day. I'm going to struggle to do the 1hr 45 minute workouts before work though! Even though I get to watch it, I'm missing riding CX. :(

I really wanted to do Disaster day, but I wouldn't have been able to even if I was fit - it's my wife's birthday, and there's a CX race the next day!
And yeah, I don't think you get better at the Ramp Test.  I think I might be getting worse if anything - you need to be in a particular mindset to really push those few extra seconds.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 22 November, 2019, 10:32:48 am
I went on the turbo last night - first time since mid Sep.   Wasn't fun.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 22 November, 2019, 11:02:38 am
i've done the disaster workout once and decided against doing it again. comparing the numbers, an intense club ride outside makes much more sense and provides similar training effect.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191122/20f28abd07bae8eebbc312e55761b075.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 22 November, 2019, 12:37:39 pm
I went on the turbo last night - first time since mid Sep.   Wasn't fun.

Well done! I'm thinking about dusting mine down. Its been idle since mid July.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 22 November, 2019, 04:59:04 pm
Mines been idle over summer. I plan to get back on the turbo in the next week or so.  First few weeks will just be getting used to turbo efforts again. I'll start the proper structured stuff after Christmas.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 23 November, 2019, 08:17:19 pm
Mines been idle over summer. I plan to get back on the turbo in the next week or so.  First few weeks will just be getting used to turbo efforts again. I'll start the proper structured stuff after Christmas.

Similar here.  Coaching starts again first week of Jan.  I find a few sharpeners help.  A 6hr road ride in the hills today was a bit of a stretch.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 24 November, 2019, 12:32:40 pm
I'm just doing Traditional Base 1, because I'm getting abdominal pain when doing high intensity efforts (and I'm waiting for a scan on a suspected hernia).

Bummer. Hope it's OK!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 24 November, 2019, 12:44:41 pm
Tonight’s plan was Jepson. But I fancied more of a challenge so did Prater and added 30m on with some endurance. Passed the test. If my FTP is set too high Prater will let me know.  :thumbsup:

Agree. Over/unders are what I use to gauge whether my number is "right".

Point in case, started SSB MV1 a few weeks back and Reinstein felt a bit too hard so bumped FTP down by 10w, which I think will work better. I expected to do this, as I tend to manage OK with the Ramp Test's VO2max stage plus I'd been doing HIIT work in the weeks prior to the test, so was really on form for top end work, leading to a high number.

For all the limitations of TR's one-dimensional ramp test, it's still useful to me as a gauge due to its practicality and "doability", and thus much more preferable for me than, say, Sufferfest's 4DP method, which I'm never ever ever willingly going to put myself through unless someone pays me very large truckfuls of cash, and even then...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 27 November, 2019, 06:16:25 am
Finally got back on the turbo.  Did ramp test.  Wasn't great , down 15% to about what it was this time last year.  Wasn't surprising as I've done very little since end of July (other than eat!).

I expect to see it go back up as I get into things.  Will probably test again in 2-3 weeks. 

It is helpful having last year's trainerroad history as a benchmark to track
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 November, 2019, 09:52:20 am
 :thumbsup:

The ability to directly compare matching seasons is great. It’s useful also when getting older and having PRs from 2012 that will be near on impossible to match. Knowing you’re ahead of 12 and 24 months ago is great.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 27 November, 2019, 10:20:35 am
Finally got back on the turbo.  Did ramp test.  Wasn't great , down 15% to about what it was this time last year.  Wasn't surprising as I've done very little since end of July (other than eat!).

I expect to see it go back up as I get into things.  Will probably test again in 2-3 weeks. 

It is helpful having last year's trainerroad history as a benchmark to track

My experience of getting back on the turbo last Winter and last week is that there is a pretty big leap between your first and second sessions back.   I don't do power but the speed for heart rate in the session I did last night vs last Thursday was a big leap.

It's almost like you need a hard session to clear the tubes after sitting around and eating cake for a few months.   Not very scientific I know.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 November, 2019, 10:58:08 am
My experience of getting back on the turbo last Winter and last week is that there is a pretty big leap between your first and second sessions back.   I don't do power but the speed for heart rate in the session I did last night vs last Thursday was a big leap.

It's almost like you need a hard session to clear the tubes after sitting around and eating cake for a few months.   Not very scientific I know.

Plasma volume is the most likely culprit. It comes back quickly.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3944049

I had a 5% drop in my ramp test score from just two weeks off. It fits with these results.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 November, 2019, 06:15:14 am
Interesting.

Looking at my last ramp test back in April vs this one, my heart rate reached its maximum at c.50W lower power.  In April, when I was at this week's max power, my HR was about 20 beats lower, or 12%.  Ties in well with your experiences and the article. 

Won't do turbo today as I'm doing 100km this evening - longest mid-week ride for a while.  Going to see Graeme Obree speak and couldn't imagine not riding out for that!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 01 December, 2019, 10:36:07 am
Turbo dusted down. Wife is on it right now. She has some ligament damage in ankle from running. So it is just used as a non impact way of getting some motion in the ankle. Turbo set 0% slope, not designed as a hard session.

I'm off on a ride today so will probably get back on turbo tomorrow to reintroduce myself to it, and build up to something structured from Jan.

The turbo is the self powered Tacx Bushido Smart. So it get used on the patio. It's great this time of year as the outside temperature is perfect for working hard.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 December, 2019, 10:58:40 am
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/67369203-mary-austin-1

This was my highest 1h30 effort this year (and matches the best average for 1h this year). Progress is happening. It was tough. Lots of supportive/nagging messages in the text.

Next weekend on Saturday is Leconte. I have not completed that one 100% on target in two attempts. FTP was set higher but it was on the KickR seemed to over-read by 15-20W so I may have been in a similar ball-park. However, completing this one on-target should give me confidence.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 December, 2019, 09:23:46 pm
for trainerroad peeps - a new custom training plan builder (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans/plan-builder) beta feature rolled out; more info on tr forum (https://forum.trainerroad.com/t/introducing-plan-builder/25201)

been playing around with various scenarios - looks like a v.useful feature :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 December, 2019, 10:32:10 pm
Yeah, it's awesome.  You need to know when your target events are if you really want to make use of it, and loads of mine haven't been confirmed yet...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 December, 2019, 10:35:06 pm
for trainerroad peeps - a new custom training plan builder (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans/plan-builder) beta feature rolled out; more info on tr forum (https://forum.trainerroad.com/t/introducing-plan-builder/25201)

been playing around with various scenarios - looks like a v.useful feature :thumbsup:

Woo. I was pretty sure they were working on something like this. Hints have been dropped.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 December, 2019, 10:35:31 pm
Tonight I did Lamarck. Best 45-minute power in over 2 years, and I could've done more.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 December, 2019, 05:04:16 pm
Leconte. Never completed this 100% on target. Until now.

One more workout then recovery for a few days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 07 December, 2019, 11:43:45 pm
you're on a roll! i'm thinking how to include the festive500 into my plan, i felt quite fatigued every time i've done it.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 December, 2019, 12:00:55 am
you're on a roll! i'm thinking how to include the festive500 into my plan, i felt quite fatigued every time i've done it.

I’m not doing that! Hoping to train right through Christmas week to keep the momentum.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 December, 2019, 05:14:28 pm
Well I made it to the end of week 5 intact - with Wright Peak -1. This is hard to follow on from Leconte. Highest 2h power I've averaged for 3 years+.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 December, 2019, 02:51:34 pm
So I gave Disaster, full version, a go today. I was a bit worried by how hard the threshold intervals felt but got through the endurance and vo2max nonetheless. It fell apart a bit during the fireworks - really tough and after completing three of the sprints I decided to skip the rest of them. It was still very hard - ran out of energy.

This week has not been ideal for sleep which probably hasn't helped. Probably the weakness to address is musclar endurance.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 14 December, 2019, 05:41:02 pm
Some winter 100s should sort that  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 December, 2019, 07:13:01 pm
Some winter 100s should sort that  :thumbsup:

Sustained power build mid volume followed by more sweet spot base.

This workout was an all time PB for all durations between 2h35 and 4h15. Added 10W to by best 4h average. Previous best was non stopping 100k earlier this year. This workout was much harder.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 December, 2019, 11:28:23 am
Disaster is absolutely brutal - well done for getting as far as you did. Did you eat enough during the ride? Maybe that was what killed the sprints?
I failed to complete Gibbs (a 2 hour endurance ride) on Friday - couldn't really understand why at the time, but have been feeling spectacularly crap all weekend. I guess that explains it. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 December, 2019, 11:41:14 am
Disaster is absolutely brutal - well done for getting as far as you did. Did you eat enough during the ride? Maybe that was what killed the sprints?
I failed to complete Gibbs (a 2 hour endurance ride) on Friday - couldn't really understand why at the time, but have been feeling spectacularly crap all weekend. I guess that explains it. :(

You're probably coming down with a cold.

My disaster workout here: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/68345926-disaster - I got all the way to the end, by skipping the sprints I mean I back-pedalled through them. Others turned down the intensity. Even with missing out all but three of the sprints I was close to failure on the sweet-spot work. After that even 40% felt like hard work!

I took on 1200 calories during the ride, 80g of carbs per hour, in the form of Maurten 320 drink. This is close to the maximum (90g/hour) that can be absorbed by the gut. Eating more would have more likely caused a stomach upset than help. I'd eaten a large bowl of porridge beforehand, with fruit and yoghurt.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 15 December, 2019, 11:56:00 am
well done, as said before not too keen to do it again.. my nutrition during the workout was four ripe bananas and three bottles of energy drink - saw me through to the end.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191215/6f29ffced59e202230b851518e88d6bc.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 16 December, 2019, 12:45:40 am
Well I had a go too, wow that’s hard!

I struggled on the 2min over ftp intervals & had to lower it to 95% on the long interval with sprints near the end.  Just pleased to have made it tbh  :thumbsup:

 https://www.trainerroad.com/career/markbc/rides/68475004-disaster (https://www.trainerroad.com/career/markbc/rides/68475004-disaster)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 December, 2019, 08:50:00 am
Well I had a go too, wow that’s hard!

I struggled on the 2min over ftp intervals & had to lower it to 95% on the long interval with sprints near the end.  Just pleased to have made it tbh  :thumbsup:

 https://www.trainerroad.com/career/markbc/rides/68475004-disaster (https://www.trainerroad.com/career/markbc/rides/68475004-disaster)

Well done! Your account is private so we can’t see how you suffered.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 16 December, 2019, 10:01:57 am
Well I had a go too, wow that’s hard!

I struggled on the 2min over ftp intervals & had to lower it to 95% on the long interval with sprints near the end.  Just pleased to have made it tbh  :thumbsup:

 https://www.trainerroad.com/career/markbc/rides/68475004-disaster (https://www.trainerroad.com/career/markbc/rides/68475004-disaster)

Well done! Your account is private so we can’t see how you suffered.

Thanks!

I just switched it to public, then switched it back when I realised that things like my future calendar and Strava privacy zones are now visible for synced rides...  :facepalm:

I'll look into other settings, but here it is on Strava at least https://www.strava.com/activities/2935906567  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 16 December, 2019, 03:54:51 pm
I did about 10 weeks of turbo only last Winter but the longest session was just over 2hrs.   Not sure I could do 4 TBH.

Last week ended up a bit of a mess with real life.   I'll do a bit this week then have Christmas week off.   I've just had a mail from my coach saying my plan starts 1st Jan - he's got 4 mths to get me in shape.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 19 December, 2019, 01:29:13 pm
My comeback has fallen off the rails after about 4 sessions.

Was toying with taking a bike up to my parents but I probably won't.  There never seems to be a good time to go out when I do that.  In some ways it would be easier to take my turbo and do a few short sessions, but I can't see it somehow. 

I'll restart after Christmas.  Will find out if I get a place in TCR on 6 Jan or thereabouts and that will either give me incentive or take it away and make me find other goals.  I need a goal in order to train.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 20 December, 2019, 07:47:50 pm
I did about 10 weeks of turbo only last Winter but the longest session was just over 2hrs.   Not sure I could do 4 TBH.

Last week ended up a bit of a mess with real life.   I'll do a bit this week then have Christmas week off.   I've just had a mail from my coach saying my plan starts 1st Jan - he's got 4 mths to get me in shape.

Just commuting this week and should do a road ride in the morning. I’m then going away for a week without a bike. Hopefully I’ll be well set to start fresh in Jan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 20 December, 2019, 08:01:13 pm
doing a break from the trainer, planning to ride 160km on sunday as a warmup for the festive500, turbo training will resume next decade.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 20 December, 2019, 09:17:16 pm
I'm being killed by my new FTP doing one week of sustained power build, but it's back to base next week and less intensity... for a while.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 23 December, 2019, 10:09:23 am
I'm trying to build a base with a larger volume of low intensity rides (while watching youtube to avoid boredom). I RAMP tested up a few W at 233, but I'm still having issues with my hip/ab area, so if I turn the intensity up even a little then I really struggle (RAMP didn't do it, don't know why not). It gets worse/comes on if I compress the hip angle (eg reaching forwards to switch video).

I'm seriously thinking about putting the recumbent trike onto the rollers (it has a 20" rear wheel so can't go on the turbo), using my pedals for power and gears to sort out resistance. I'll need to tidy up the garage a load and fix the back/head rest on the trike first though. Maybe I can do that between Christmas and new year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 23 December, 2019, 12:54:22 pm
I'm being killed by my new FTP doing one week of sustained power build, but it's back to base next week and less intensity... for a while.

Not been as bad as expected, actually. Sticking to the plan is working.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 24 December, 2019, 11:16:34 am
I did bluebell last night, think it may be time to retest after Christmas with hope of some more gains  :thumbsup:

I've now completed "sweet-spot mid I" plus a few weeks of less formal base/build work.  I then tried sweet-spot High but the lack of anything over FTP made it less fun so I've swapped back to sweet-spot mid II with at least one ride outside added in or substituted.

I notice on 'real rides, outside' that I'm feeling stronger with my endurance which is fantastic.  I did however struggle with short sharp climbs, once it becomes impossible to hold a cadence in the 80-95rpm range I struggled to put down any reasonable power.

Would you expect this to resolve itself once I move on to build/speciality phases, so should I look to mix in lower cadence or climbing drills at this stage?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 29 December, 2019, 09:09:38 pm
I am free of the need to train.  FREE I tell you.   Looking to put at least a stone on before Christmas.

Well, I thought I was only joking, but that goal was achieved.  I may have overdone things a little with 6 days away and no bike.

First week plan from my coach has arrived and it’s all go from tomorrow.  I have 4 months before RAtN, but the plan is to get there a little undercooked and be a bit more on song mid Summer.

ETA - when your mother tells you you look far more healthy at the moment it confirms how the world view of what ‘normal’ weight has become.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 08 January, 2020, 12:39:55 am
After Sweet Spot Base 1 plan my FTP is up 9% :)

After that I had 3.5 weeks off the bike early November (holiday and neck injury), and am part way through a ragged attempt of sweet spot base 2 , with Xmas & a couple of long rides disrupting the formalities. 

I randomly decided to do a retest today, not planned (and not feeling rested) but last few sessions seemed a bit too easy... a 5% increase from 216 up to 226, I recon I have more but with a test planned in 2 weeks when I move to a build program I recon I’ll stick with that for now 👍 I did Carter 45min session afterwards, felt good  8)

(I know the numbers are pitiful compared to some but it’s a random number from my turbo so I’m only looking for relative gains instead of wider comparison)

In other news I put in more riding hours in December than I’ve ever managed in that month so my base prep for RATN is all good  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 January, 2020, 12:54:59 am
After Sweet Spot Base 1 plan my FTP is up 9% :)

After that I had 3.5 weeks off the bike early November (holiday and neck injury), and am part way through a ragged attempt of sweet spot base 2 , with Xmas & a couple of long rides disrupting the formalities. 

I randomly decided to do a retest today, not planned (and not feeling rested) but last few sessions seemed a bit too easy... a 5% increase from 216 up to 226, I recon I have more but with a test planned in 2 weeks when I move to a build program I recon I’ll stick with that for now 👍 I did Carter 45min session afterwards, felt good  8)

(I know the numbers are pitiful compared to some but it’s a random number from my turbo so I’m only looking for relative gains instead of wider comparison)

In other news I put in more riding hours in December than I’ve ever managed in that month so my base prep for RATN is all good  :thumbsup:

Good going!

I had a week off due to Christmas etc just getting in the way too much. I tried training on Thursday and it was tough. Came down with a stinking cold on Saturday which is still keeping me off the trainer. So that will be a two week break at least then. Think I’ll need to retest and reset.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 08 January, 2020, 04:01:04 pm
I'm struggling to get the motivation to get up and ride in the garage.  My hip/groin is not fixed, so I can't do any big efforts and I'm restricted to riding in zone 2 which is really boring. I put the recumbent trike onto the rollers and that's just made things worse - I don't have my "bent legs" so I'm struggling to hold 160W and I can't set the laptop close enough to watch Youtube. Totally fed up of this injury - had it for ages and it's not got any better - physio doesn't seem to touch it and the doctor didn't have a clue. :( I might just try to make the trike rideable outside and give up on structure for a bit. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 09 January, 2020, 11:40:52 am
Everyone's 'fessing up! My turn...

Last year was my second year back on the bike and it all went pretty well. Was in good shape for my French end-to-end over the summer and was probably as fit or fitter than I've ever been. To my surprise (but no doubt a result of the consistent training load I'd been maintaining), I found I was beginning to be able to handle quite a lot of volume compared to previously, without getting sick in the way that used to happen. My last FTP test suggested that in the next year or two I might feasibly touch 4w/kg if all the planets aligned...

With all this is mind, in late October I began my prep for 2020 with a mid-volume Base plan, doing a few weeks of Trad Base + outdoor rides, then moving onto SSB1. All going fine.

But Crimbo/NY is a time to reassess stuff, and I've decided that all this bike training had started to feel a little bit obsessive, a bit too much like a job for me rather than being about having fun and being happy.

So a replan for me aiming to achieve a bit more "balance" in what I'm doing: reduce the bike training to a Low Vol TR plan, leaving time to schedule in 1 (or maybe 2) weights sessions per week, and 1 run per week. My partner's a runner, so it means I get to run with her again, whereas previously all the extra cycling had squozen out this running. Did my first park run, which I'd been planning to do for a while but it kept getting put on the backburner, so pleased with that, with more park runs and other low key events planned.

A couple of weeks in and I feel quite perky about this rebalancing. I need to stay bike fit as I'm off to the Alps in the summer, but my bike fitness goal will be aimed more at trying to maintain than progress. Reducing the volume frees up time to do the other stuff, and healthwise and over 50 I'm sure I'll benefit more from the mix of activities.

So that's my rough plan for the year ahead.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 January, 2020, 12:49:37 pm
If I have a goal, I'm happy to keep training. But despite having goal events I want to do, I have no idea what is wrong with my hip, let alone when I'll be able to race on it.
I'm going to keep ticking along riding when I feel like it (indoors and out), but I'm not going to do structure (except for gym related rehab) until I have a prognosis on my hip. Anyone know how much I need to do to maintain my current aerobic fitness (I have no high end to speak of after 4 months of base)? Running is worse than riding, and I'd rather ride my bike that use one (or the eliptical thing) in the gym.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 09 January, 2020, 04:29:49 pm
2019 was  a bad year training wise.  Never got into proper structure, work was busy. I managed my goal of 600km wild(ish) camping in Normandy in july but then broke my clavicle.  After 2 weeks this needed fixing which lead to a couple of months off.  Then my wife got a new job so wehad some house renovations to plan, lots of extra work followed by a trip to Brazil to see our son and suddenly it is Christmas!

The good news is that the new house is 20km away giving me 40km of commuting on a Monday and Tuesday (soon to be Wednesday as well).

I have also found the local cycling club (Mercia Cycling) who seem a nice bunch and I will hopefully get some longer rides in at the weekend.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: HeltorChasca on 10 January, 2020, 06:56:09 am
I probably should guess the answer to this: But do recumbent riders put the same machine onto their turbo or just use an upright?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 10 January, 2020, 11:25:16 am
I probably should guess the answer to this: But do recumbent riders put the same machine onto their turbo or just use an upright?

Depends what size the rear wheel is. My new recumbent has a 700C rear wheel so it fits on the turbo.   I have a cheap wheel and turbo specific tyre, which can go on my upright or recumbent, so I put that on to avoid getting mud on the turbo from the outdoor rear wheel. You know they say you should train in the tri bar position for power if doing time trials, it's the same  for recumbents.  It's best to workout on the recumbent on the turbo, if you're trying to develop power on the recumbent.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 14 January, 2020, 10:19:01 am
I finally did a race on Zwift. Yes, after 14 months of very regular, I actually put a number on my back. Well, kind of.

Silver.  :smug:

More importantly, I'm clearly not trying hard enough in training, max HR was higher than it's been for at least 12 months, and I got the first FTP boost for 9 months.

Does anyone know if there is a calculator that will tell you how fast you would go for a different weight, given the same course and power? I think I need a chart for motivation...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 15 January, 2020, 05:27:33 pm
Does anyone know if there is a calculator that will tell you how fast you would go for a different weight, given the same course and power? I think I need a chart for motivation...

Have a look here:

https://www.bestbikesplit.com/




Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 January, 2020, 05:51:12 pm
Did Carter on the upright today.  So much easier than on the recumbent. I don't think my HR was much lower, it was just loads easier and I could have gone on for ages, whereas on the Trike I just run out of legs after about half hour (or earlier).
I'm gonna start SSB on Monday - I might use the trike for filler workouts if I decide I need more volume. I doubt I will though - I'm also doing some gym work as instructed by my physio.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: philip on 15 January, 2020, 05:56:16 pm
Does anyone know if there is a calculator that will tell you how fast you would go for a different weight, given the same course and power? I think I need a chart for motivation...
A major factor is the gradient.
http://www.bikecalculator.com/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 15 January, 2020, 06:13:57 pm
Also this one: http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 15 January, 2020, 06:20:16 pm
Did Carter on the upright today.  So much easier than on the recumbent. I don't think my HR was much lower, it was just loads easier and I could have gone on for ages, whereas on the Trike I just run out of legs after about half hour (or earlier).
I'm gonna start SSB on Monday - I might use the trike for filler workouts if I decide I need more volume. I doubt I will though - I'm also doing some gym work as instructed by my physio.

Were your workouts based on a FTP from your road bike or recumbent? My recumbent FTP was quite a bit lower than my road bike FTP when I got started on this seasons turbo work.  But I just lowered the FTP to that derived from testing on the recumbent, and got on with it. I’ve also been doing squats and strength work off the bike to strengthen the glutes etc.  My recumbent FTP caught up with my road bike FTP by start of this month. So depends which bike you want to develop power on. My next test is early Feb where I’ll see if the recumbent FTP has climbed any further.

Like you I was leg limited on the recumbent to start with.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 15 January, 2020, 07:39:34 pm
Did Carter on the upright today.  So much easier than on the recumbent. I don't think my HR was much lower, it was just loads easier and I could have gone on for ages, whereas on the Trike I just run out of legs after about half hour (or earlier).
I'm gonna start SSB on Monday - I might use the trike for filler workouts if I decide I need more volume. I doubt I will though - I'm also doing some gym work as instructed by my physio.

Were your workouts based on a FTP from your road bike or recumbent? My recumbent FTP was quite a bit lower than my road bike FTP when I got started on this seasons turbo work.  But I just lowered the FTP to that derived from testing on the recumbent, and got on with it. I’ve also been doing squats and strength work off the bike to strengthen the glutes etc.  My recumbent FTP caught up with my road bike FTP by start of this month. So depends which bike you want to develop power on. My next test is early Feb where I’ll see if the recumbent FTP has climbed any further.

Like you I was leg limited on the recumbent to start with.
The FTP was set to the road bike one, but I wasn't on a smart trainer, so I could just ride at whatever power I chose. I can't do a ramp test on the recumbent as the rollers don't offer enough resistance - I'm in top gear at 90rpm and 200W. Carter/Volunteer are about 60% of FTP, so it's not too bad using the wrong FTP for those workouts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Ham on 22 January, 2020, 10:10:00 pm
I've upgraded the Tacx to a direct drive Elite Suito, and I've even climbed on it now.

Oh my my. Unfit? Moi? Turned my FTP down to 220 (from 275) and I could still only do less than half an hour :(

Maybe I'll try 200.

The Suito is a damn fine piece of kit, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 22 January, 2020, 10:41:24 pm
I've upgraded the Tacx to a direct drive Elite Suito, and I've even climbed on it now.

Oh my my. Unfit? Moi? Turned my FTP down to 220 (from 275) and I could still only do less than half an hour :(

Maybe I'll try 200.

The Suito is a damn fine piece of kit, though.

No shame in adjusting your FTP down to match reality. After all it’s just a base number so your workouts are appropriate to your level of fitness / power output. Fitness never stands still.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 23 January, 2020, 08:35:07 pm
I've upgraded the Tacx to a direct drive Elite Suito, and I've even climbed on it now.

Oh my my. Unfit? Moi? Turned my FTP down to 220 (from 275) and I could still only do less than half an hour :(

Maybe I'll try 200.

The Suito is a damn fine piece of kit, though.

If it's been a while - a quick ramp test should give the the right ballpark figure.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 02 February, 2020, 05:46:17 pm
Couple of sessions this week where everything felt good especially the legs. Two more sessions then rest and test week. Hopefully the feeling good is indicating improved fitness. Will find out in just over a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 02 February, 2020, 08:17:14 pm
I got a rotten cold mid January. After a week and a bit off, I went to the gym and tweaked my back (doing the lifting that the physio set me to try to help my hip).  I deleted my TR plan without even starting it for the second time this year :'(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 February, 2020, 08:44:54 pm
Two rotten colds this year so far. Virtually no training. Bah.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 02 February, 2020, 10:00:12 pm
Another zwift race, another ftp boost. Nice.

(current calculation - 7 more races to take me to 250W then lose 45kg and turn Pro. IT COULD HAPPEN)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 03 February, 2020, 06:06:06 pm
Another good interval session today. Heart rate definitely indicating I’m finding it easier. Last session (of this period) tomorrow which is a lower intensity steady state session. I’ll be disappointed if the testing doesn’t reveal an increased FTP...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Zed43 on 04 February, 2020, 03:53:02 pm
Trainer Road ramp test yesterday; FTP up by 12W compared to 5 weeks ago, but still 16W down compared to one year ago. A rather unimpressive 1400 TSS in the new year (in previous years it was ~ 1800 by now), following 3 months of basically no cycling so I'm happy with the upward trend ;)

Still, work to be done for WAWAW...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 04 February, 2020, 05:23:51 pm
Did 7 reps of Edge hill on Sunday (1 km at 10.5%), all at VAM > 1000. My FTP equivalent VAM is around 900.

Life is good
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 04 February, 2020, 05:38:22 pm
Still, work to be done for WAWAW...

What is the extra W for that you’ve added to the end?

If it’s any consolation I did a lot less fitness work ahead of WAWA 16.  It was pre structured training and mostly consisted of me doing hill repeats on a 17% hill plus some Welsh audaxes.

Be interesting to see how it compares four years on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 04 February, 2020, 05:54:57 pm
I've upgraded the Tacx to a direct drive Elite Suito, and I've even climbed on it now.

Oh my my. Unfit? Moi? Turned my FTP down to 220 (from 275) and I could still only do less than half an hour :(

Maybe I'll try 200.

The Suito is a damn fine piece of kit, though.

You don't lose 50 Watt overnight... most likely the first number was largely incorrect
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Zed43 on 04 February, 2020, 06:12:36 pm
After 2020-02-02 my brain is still in palindrome mode :)

I once "gained" 40W FTP in two days by using 44/14t gearing instead of 30/21t. This was on a Tacx Genius (not direct drive). After that experience I have been frugal in always riding on the trainer using the same gearing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 04 February, 2020, 06:27:19 pm
I've upgraded the Tacx to a direct drive Elite Suito, and I've even climbed on it now.

Oh my my. Unfit? Moi? Turned my FTP down to 220 (from 275) and I could still only do less than half an hour :(

Maybe I'll try 200.

The Suito is a damn fine piece of kit, though.

You don't lose 50 Watt overnight... most likely the first number was largely incorrect

If the upgrade was from a wheel on to a wheel off trainer, that's likely to be the difference. Wheel off trainers are much more accurate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 04 February, 2020, 06:37:24 pm
I've upgraded the Tacx to a direct drive Elite Suito, and I've even climbed on it now.

Oh my my. Unfit? Moi? Turned my FTP down to 220 (from 275) and I could still only do less than half an hour :(

Maybe I'll try 200.

The Suito is a damn fine piece of kit, though.

You don't lose 50 Watt overnight... most likely the first number was largely incorrect

We don’t know when the 275 figure dates from.  It could be a figure from 6 or more months ago.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 04 February, 2020, 07:20:07 pm
I've upgraded the Tacx to a direct drive Elite Suito, and I've even climbed on it now.

Oh my my. Unfit? Moi? Turned my FTP down to 220 (from 275) and I could still only do less than half an hour :(

Maybe I'll try 200.

The Suito is a damn fine piece of kit, though.

You don't lose 50 Watt overnight... most likely the first number was largely incorrect

We don’t know when the 275 figure dates from.  It could be a figure from 6 or more months ago.

Vast majority of numbers people come up with are totally meaningless.  FTP is not an easy number to churn out
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 04 February, 2020, 08:02:03 pm
True, but the purpose of the ftp (for most of us) is not to reflect the actual power we can put out for an hour, but to ensure that our workouts are done at the 'right' intensity. It's easier to do that with actual numbers than with perceived exertion,even if the ftp number isn't what it purports to be.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 February, 2020, 07:33:57 am
True, but the purpose of the ftp (for most of us) is not to reflect the actual power we can put out for an hour, but to ensure that our workouts are done at the 'right' intensity. It's easier to do that with actual numbers than with perceived exertion,even if the ftp number isn't what it purports to be.

Yes, consistency is more important than the actual number, but as you can see above, consistency is the main problem. It is simply quite difficult to give 100% in a time frame of 1 hour, 20 minutes or whatever you want to use to measure it... it takes a lot of practice just to find where the limit is.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 February, 2020, 10:00:06 am
that's where the ramp test comes in. it removes the guesswork of pacing, reduces the length of suffering to ~five minutes (instead of 20min or 1hr) and gives a very good estimate of one's ftp.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 February, 2020, 10:18:46 am
that's where the ramp test comes in. it removes the guesswork of pacing, reduces the length of suffering to ~five minutes (instead of 20min or 1hr) and gives a very good estimate of one's ftp.

Problem is you can only do it indoors and if you then don't train indoors, the numbers are meaningless.
I don't use power and still prefer to find a hill and get my numbers from a VAM, essentially because I only ride outdoors and mostly on hilly terrain.
On a Wattbike, I never managed to get any decent number... I overheat and give up much sooner than I would on a real bike
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 February, 2020, 10:28:02 am
it's not a problem, as the numbers indoors and outdoors match quite well, i use several power meters and years of data to confirm this. the overheating problem can be solved with a good fan(s).

keep doing whatever works for you :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 February, 2020, 10:34:31 am
it's not a problem, as the numbers indoors and outdoors match quite well, i use several power meters and years of data to confirm this. the overheating problem can be solved with a good fan(s).

keep doing whatever works for you :thumbsup:

It's horses for courses, I have only used Wattbikes in a gym, where there was no fan and the temperature was way too high for comfort
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 February, 2020, 10:42:35 am
yes, wattbikes in gyms don't really work without dedicated fans (which are usually absent), still ok for zone2 or sprint training, but not much else.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 February, 2020, 10:51:08 am
The only Wattbike I've used in a gym was directly under the aircon vent.  That was great! ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 05 February, 2020, 10:52:24 am
that's where the ramp test comes in. it removes the guesswork of pacing, reduces the length of suffering to ~five minutes (instead of 20min or 1hr) and gives a very good estimate of one's ftp.

Problem is you can only do it indoors and if you then don't train indoors, the numbers are meaningless.
I don't use power and still prefer to find a hill and get my numbers from a VAM, essentially because I only ride outdoors and mostly on hilly terrain.
On a Wattbike, I never managed to get any decent number... I overheat and give up much sooner than I would on a real bike

How do you use the VAM in your training? Besides VAM is also affected by weather, slope, how long ascent is, how accurate the height data is.  A 5 min 17% hill will give a very different VAM figure to a 4% 30 min hill.  But even once you’ve got a VAM figure how does that help you in your subsequent training? What do you use the number for?

For most FTP is just a number used to set the intensity of their training workouts. It works very well for that as the trainers allow you to set interval intensities as a percentage of FTP.   Trainer apps could be changed to use a percentage of the max aerobic power of a ramp test instead. That would also work just as well.

But VAM, other than a current measure of your fitness and form up a particular hill, I can’t see how it helps with your training when you aren’t on that hill.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 February, 2020, 11:01:15 am
keep doing whatever works for you :thumbsup:

This
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 February, 2020, 11:20:57 am
that's where the ramp test comes in. it removes the guesswork of pacing, reduces the length of suffering to ~five minutes (instead of 20min or 1hr) and gives a very good estimate of one's ftp.

Problem is you can only do it indoors and if you then don't train indoors, the numbers are meaningless.
I don't use power and still prefer to find a hill and get my numbers from a VAM, essentially because I only ride outdoors and mostly on hilly terrain.
On a Wattbike, I never managed to get any decent number... I overheat and give up much sooner than I would on a real bike

How do you use the VAM in your training? Besides VAM is also affected by weather, slope, how long ascent is, how accurate the height data is.  A 5 min 17% hill will give a very different VAM figure to a 4% 30 min hill.  But even once you’ve got a VAM figure how does that help you in your subsequent training? What do you use the number for?

For most FTP is just a number used to set the intensity of their training workouts. It works very well for that as the trainers allow you to set interval intensities as a percentage of FTP.   Trainer apps could be changed to use a percentage of the max aerobic power of a ramp test instead. That would also work just as well.

But VAM, other than a current measure of your fitness and form up a particular hill, I can’t see how it helps with your training when you aren’t on that hill.

Firstly, you need a good hill with the right and possibly constant gradient. Your 17% one won't work, because for sure it is not 17% all the way.
I am lucky enough to have a good hill about one hour cycle away. It's a pretty constant 10% for 1 km. My best ascent balls out and lungs on the tarmac is 4:22 (VAM 1400), the pace I can keep for an hour I know (from other longer but similarly steep climbs in the alps) is about 900 VAM, which means roughly 7 minutes for the particular hill.
So, I try to work at 110-120% of FTP for reps, which is adequate for this hill and works out about 6 minutes. If I was interested in "hill climb" specifically, then I would try to work at a higher % of FTP, maybe more like 130% and with fewer reps.

Weather doesn't seem to have an impact and the hill is reasonably well sheltered from winds, so wind direction also doesn't make a significant difference.

VAM varies very little from hill to hill, unless they are < 6% average, in which case it drops a lot. Other than that, the value is surprisingly reproducible. This is a log of my ascents, the slower ones on the right are "training reps", as you can see the time (and so the VAM) are very reproducible

(https://whosatthewheel.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/screenshot_2020-02-05-1-0-km-ride-segment-in-warwick-england-united-kingdom-on-strava.png)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 05 February, 2020, 12:37:57 pm
that's where the ramp test comes in. it removes the guesswork of pacing, reduces the length of suffering to ~five minutes (instead of 20min or 1hr) and gives a very good estimate of one's ftp.

Problem is you can only do it indoors...

Indeed, you can't safely do a ramp test outdoors (not in London anyway, out in the sticks it might be possible), but as zigzag says it's the best way of quickly determining one's FTP. The test is designed to be short enough that it's not overly arduous, plus it's not long enough that overheating (e.g. due to a lack of a fan in a gym) becomes a problem. I can do 400W for 60s in isolation but I haven't yet managed to get to a minute at 300W during a ramp test (I usually fail to hold the minute at 275W), and it reall is only "hard" for about 3-4 minutes.

... and if you then don't train indoors, the numbers are meaningless.

Not if you have a power meter on a bike for riding outdoors, which I do (two in fact). It means I can work out what kind of a training effect my outdoor rides have and I can also keep an eye on my power output whilst riding outdoors to know if I'm pushing too hard or not pushing hard enough.

Even without a power meter for riding outdoor the numbers aren't meaningless even in isolation. Doing a regular ramp test will help show you whether your other training (done against average speed up a hill, VAM, HR or any other system) is producing meaningful and quantifiable results.

I lose the extra 30 minutes of swimming that I could fit in on a Wednesday whilst my daughter was having her swimming lesson as they've changed the lessons around and now all of the lanes are shut once the lessons begin, but it means I've now got 30 minutes free time which is perfect to finish my swim, get changed into cycling stuff, nip up to the gym with the wattbikes (which overlooks the pool) and sneak in a quick ramp test (which takes 15 minutes including a warm up and spin down). I can then be back to the changing rooms for a quick shower and be ready to collect her as she comes up from getting changed herself.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 February, 2020, 03:42:49 pm
We used to train even before power meters became available.

VAM can be measured with a stopwatch and it is done automatically with things like Strava... the error is minimum, down to rounding of seconds.

A power meter is a rather complicated unit, consisting of a strain gauge to measure torque and a unit to measure RPM. Both of them are prone to error, especially the former.
Strain gauges are incredibly sensitive and it doesn't take much to produce a wrong reading. For instance if it is on the crank, then you hit it with your shoe and you produce an incorrect reading for that pedal stroke. I am also unsure what happens when the bottom bracket ages. there is a bit of play and the response of the crank upon the pedal stroke becomes different... there are a number of ways the calibration can be altered.
I wouldn't take those numbers as Gospel... on balance I tend to trust a solid hill and a stop watch.

That said, one day I will probably buy a power meter, but if you know how to collect data, they seem to offer so little for so much money!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 February, 2020, 04:41:21 pm
But if you want to train indoors and outdoors, a power meter is the most accurate way to ensure you are doing the effort you are aiming for.  Sure, you can train on a turbo using resistance and speed (ala Obree), but you can't then calibrate that to your hill (or other efforts outside, especially on the flat). Or you can calibrate your outside efforts to a known piece of terrain and a time (as you are doing with your hill), but then translating that to other terrain or indoor riding is hard.
It's possible to train in a myriad of ways. Power measuring allows you to target your effort more precisely over a greater range of circumstances. Whether that's worth it is down to the individual.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 February, 2020, 05:02:26 pm
But if you want to train indoors and outdoors, a power meter is the most accurate way to ensure you are doing the effort you are aiming for.  Sure, you can train on a turbo using resistance and speed (ala Obree), but you can't then calibrate that to your hill (or other efforts outside, especially on the flat). Or you can calibrate your outside efforts to a known piece of terrain and a time (as you are doing with your hill), but then translating that to other terrain or indoor riding is hard.
It's possible to train in a myriad of ways. Power measuring allows you to target your effort more precisely over a greater range of circumstances. Whether that's worth it is down to the individual.

Agreed that indoors without power is a bit of a shot in the dark... luckily I don't do indoors...  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 05 February, 2020, 05:19:56 pm
We used to train even before power meters became available.

Sure, but training with power was a huge leap in terms of structured training, it's also now not beyond the cost of mere mortals. My power meters were ~£250 each (one geared, one for fixed) which is relatively small cost compared to, say, a £2k bike.

VAM can be measured with a stopwatch and it is done automatically with things like Strava... the error is minimum, down to rounding of seconds.

The point of power is that it is immediate, you can't calculate your VAM for the last 3 seconds, you can't calculate if you've gone off way too fast on the first 30 seconds of a climb. Power gives an almost immediate reading so you can avoid burning yourself out early.

Training based on VAM relies on riding to a perceived effort level and then calculating the value after the fact. There's no immediate feedback which is what power gives you. Want to ride up that hill at a certain effort level, pick a Watt number and then maintain that all the way up regardless of the gradient.

A power meter is a rather complicated unit, consisting of a strain gauge to measure torque and a unit to measure RPM. Both of them are prone to error, especially the former.
Strain gauges are incredibly sensitive and it doesn't take much to produce a wrong reading. For instance if it is on the crank, then you hit it with your shoe and you produce an incorrect reading for that pedal stroke. I am also unsure what happens when the bottom bracket ages. there is a bit of play and the response of the crank upon the pedal stroke becomes different... there are a number of ways the calibration can be altered.
 
I wouldn't take those numbers as Gospel... on balance I tend to trust a solid hill and a stop watch.

Luckily there are people like DC Rain Maker that comprehensively test different brands/models of power meters against each other by using different types (i.e. pedal based power meters against crank based, and/or against hub based). The junk ones aside they all tend to sit within their published tolerances (1-2% generally) - that's perfectly good enough for the likes of me.

The problems you seem to think might exist within power meters don't really exist in reality (again, except for the rubbish brands).

That said, one day I will probably buy a power meter, but if you know how to collect data, they seem to offer so little for so much money!

And if you do buy a power meter you'll be amazed at how much more data they provide, data that you can't extract using a stopwatch.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 February, 2020, 05:26:08 pm

The point of power is that it is immediate, you can't calculate your VAM for the last 3 seconds, you can't calculate if you've gone off way too fast on the first 30 seconds of a climb. Power gives an almost immediate reading so you can avoid burning yourself out early.



That is the real advantage...
That said, for those who trained before HR monitors became available, fine tuning the perceived effort became a skill. I don't think I've ever burned out early... possibly I have never being able to give 100%, although I suspect I have not been far off on many occasions.

I think the point I was trying to make is that it's better to measure things properly with fewer tools than being on the "all the gear but no idea" side of things...

When I hear someone fluctuating in their FTP by 50 Watts depending on the day of the week, my eyes roll
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 February, 2020, 06:17:23 pm
"first they ridicule. then they follow." ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 05 February, 2020, 06:44:57 pm
That is the real advantage...

I think the biggest advantage is that given a set period of time to train (e.g. 12 weeks) and if you stick to the plan then you'll end up fitter/faster/stronger if you are able to train with power than if you have to use a "lesser" measure such as HR, PE, VAM, avg-speed, etc.

This is a huge deal for the "time crunched cyclist" although most people spoil it by not sticking to the plan properly. The old saying is that most people do too much riding at too high an intensity and not enough riding at low intensity - the push to "make it count" skews this - and this isn't a consequence of having more/fewer tools.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 06 February, 2020, 09:01:04 am
When I hear someone fluctuating in their FTP by 50 Watts depending on the day of the week, my eyes roll
The instance in this thread was in changing from a wheel on turbo which relies on spindown, tyre pressure and whole load of other things, to a direct drive turbo with a strain gauge. That's the equivalent of changing doing your VAM measurement on a nice part of the climb with a giant tailwind to choosing a sensible hill and no wind. Proper power meters give proper data.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 06 February, 2020, 10:47:38 am

The point of power is that it is immediate, you can't calculate your VAM for the last 3 seconds, you can't calculate if you've gone off way too fast on the first 30 seconds of a climb. Power gives an almost immediate reading so you can avoid burning yourself out early.



That is the real advantage...
That said, for those who trained before HR monitors became available, fine tuning the perceived effort became a skill. I don't think I've ever burned out early... possibly I have never being able to give 100%, although I suspect I have not been far off on many occasions.

I think the point I was trying to make is that it's better to measure things properly with fewer tools than being on the "all the gear but no idea" side of things...

When I hear someone fluctuating in their FTP by 50 Watts depending on the day of the week, my eyes roll

Again we don't know when the 275 watt is from. You've jumped to.the conclusion these are from two ftp teats on the same day.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 06 February, 2020, 10:54:04 am
that's where the ramp test comes in. it removes the guesswork of pacing, reduces the length of suffering to ~five minutes (instead of 20min or 1hr) and gives a very good estimate of one's ftp.

Problem is you can only do it indoors and if you then don't train indoors, the numbers are meaningless.
I don't use power and still prefer to find a hill and get my numbers from a VAM, essentially because I only ride outdoors and mostly on hilly terrain.
On a Wattbike, I never managed to get any decent number... I overheat and give up much sooner than I would on a real bike

How do you use the VAM in your training? Besides VAM is also affected by weather, slope, how long ascent is, how accurate the height data is.  A 5 min 17% hill will give a very different VAM figure to a 4% 30 min hill.  But even once you’ve got a VAM figure how does that help you in your subsequent training? What do you use the number for?

For most FTP is just a number used to set the intensity of their training workouts. It works very well for that as the trainers allow you to set interval intensities as a percentage of FTP.   Trainer apps could be changed to use a percentage of the max aerobic power of a ramp test instead. That would also work just as well.

But VAM, other than a current measure of your fitness and form up a particular hill, I can’t see how it helps with your training when you aren’t on that hill.

Firstly, you need a good hill with the right and possibly constant gradient. Your 17% one won't work, because for sure it is not 17% all the way.
I am lucky enough to have a good hill about one hour cycle away. It's a pretty constant 10% for 1 km. My best ascent balls out and lungs on the tarmac is 4:22 (VAM 1400), the pace I can keep for an hour I know (from other longer but similarly steep climbs in the alps) is about 900 VAM, which means roughly 7 minutes for the particular hill.
So, I try to work at 110-120% of FTP for reps, which is adequate for this hill and works out about 6 minutes. If I was interested in "hill climb" specifically, then I would try to work at a higher % of FTP, maybe more like 130% and with fewer reps.

Weather doesn't seem to have an impact and the hill is reasonably well sheltered from winds, so wind direction also doesn't make a significant difference.

VAM varies very little from hill to hill, unless they are < 6% average, in which case it drops a lot. Other than that, the value is surprisingly reproducible. This is a log of my ascents, the slower ones on the right are "training reps", as you can see the time (and so the VAM) are very reproducible

(https://whosatthewheel.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/screenshot_2020-02-05-1-0-km-ride-segment-in-warwick-england-united-kingdom-on-strava.png)

Since you don't have anyway of measuring power its a bit meaningless to say you rife at 110% of ftp.  Plus comparing to a VAM  figure obtained in the summer at altitude is pretty meaningless. Fitness is not a static variable.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 06 February, 2020, 12:16:32 pm


Since you don't have anyway of measuring power its a bit meaningless to say you rife at 110% of ftp.  Plus comparing to a VAM  figure obtained in the summer at altitude is pretty meaningless. Fitness is not a static variable.

I don't think you got it.
FTP can be accurately estimated from VAM... my form doesn't change much between summer and winter.. I don't gorge over Christmas or put up a stone... I ride all year round, more or less the same amount, roughly 600 miles per month, give or take.

More to the point, the correlation between VAM and FTP is linear... double the power, half the time for the same hill (provided the hill is steep enough).

So, VAM is a fairly accurate indicator, like it or not. It has been used for decades before SRM cranks hit the market in the 90s...
The fact that you didn't train back then, means that you never learned those skills... which is fine.

A power meter is a convenient and direct way to get to the number you are looking for, but like everything, it needs to be used and read properly... if you find that your FTP goes up and down by more than 10-20% between seasons, I would be very suspicious whether you are measuring things correctly, or just measuring things for the sake of it.

The only way for me to improve by more than 20% are PEDs
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 06 February, 2020, 12:30:28 pm
20% is pretty standard fluctuation for someone who takes it easy over the winter and ramps up the volume and intensity during the warm season. your theories appear less and less credible the harder you try to sell/justify them..
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 06 February, 2020, 12:39:36 pm
20% is pretty standard fluctuation for someone who takes it easy over the winter and ramps up the volume and intensity during the warm season. your theories appear less and less credible the harder you try to sell/justify them..

20% for me is around 50 Watts... hard to lose them (I don't know what your definition of taking it easy is, maybe you are better at it than me)... hard to gain them back.
Although some prefer to work in Watt/Kg, in which case all you need to do is put up a couple of stone over winter and that's your 20% lost without losing a single Watt...  ;D

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree

I've just signed up for a double hill climb in September... something to work at  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 06 February, 2020, 12:40:18 pm
I'd take a ramp test on a smart meter with erg mode over this VAM stuff any day of the week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 06 February, 2020, 12:42:59 pm
20% is pretty standard fluctuation for someone who takes it easy over the winter and ramps up the volume and intensity during the warm season. your theories appear less and less credible the harder you try to sell/justify them..

20% for me is around 50 Watts... hard to lose them (I don't know what your definition of taking it easy is, maybe you are better at it than me)... hard to gain them back.
Although some prefer to work in Watt/Kg, in which case all you need to do is put up a couple of stone over winter and that's your 20% lost without losing a single Watt...  ;D

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree

I've just signed up for a double hill climb in September... something to work at  :thumbsup:

It's hard for you to 'lose them' as you cycle all year round. Those that have a rest during the off season can have a dip in form. Try doing some VO2 work after a 4-6 week lay off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 06 February, 2020, 04:45:31 pm
20% is pretty standard fluctuation for someone who takes it easy over the winter and ramps up the volume and intensity during the warm season. your theories appear less and less credible the harder you try to sell/justify them..

20% for me is around 50 Watts... hard to lose them (I don't know what your definition of taking it easy is, maybe you are better at it than me)... hard to gain them back.
Although some prefer to work in Watt/Kg, in which case all you need to do is put up a couple of stone over winter and that's your 20% lost without losing a single Watt...  ;D

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree

I've just signed up for a double hill climb in September... something to work at  :thumbsup:

It's hard for you to 'lose them' as you cycle all year round. Those that have a rest during the off season can have a dip in form. Try doing some VO2 work after a 4-6 week lay off.

And that's something that I picked up from a discussion elsewhere a few days ago.   I kept riding Oct-Dec last year but stopped doing any turbo work and doing anything that I perceived to be an effort.   I didn't put my HRM on for those 3 months.

Since getting back on it at the start of Jan I have been able to comfortably increase volume but the top end efforts feel very hard.   I think I'm just getting a bit old.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 February, 2020, 09:13:29 am
Yeah, cutting down on hard efforts really seems to set me back.
I stopped intensity in October because of a niggling mystery injury. The injury is still there, and while I can do low intensity stuff higher up hurts, so my FTP will be down massively. I'll be talking to the physio about whether it's worth stopping riding completely for a month or 2 and focusing on gym work to try to fix me - I suspect that will basically wreck any chance of racing the TTT at Silverstone this June. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 08 February, 2020, 04:53:12 pm
Talking of data, and those interested in it, https://intervals.icu/ (https://intervals.icu/) is worth a look (a better/more functional version of Elevate) if you've not yet seen it.

Plus the fella behind it, David Tinker, is very open to user input.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 March, 2020, 07:03:49 am
Talking of data, and those interested in it, https://intervals.icu/ (https://intervals.icu/) is worth a look (a better/more functional version of Elevate) if you've not yet seen it.

Plus the fella behind it, David Tinker, is very open to user input.  :thumbsup:

Just clicked through to this now and it is very good.  Great visual illustration
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 March, 2020, 12:57:08 pm
OK,

Being skint, so looking at 0% purchase options... I can maybe afford Stages Left only or Garmin Vector, but the latter seems to be crap... would you recommend Stages?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: bludger on 05 March, 2020, 01:10:23 pm
Have you looked into a wheel with an inbuilt PM i.e. a powertap hub as an alternative? You might be pleasantly surprised.

Avoid the garmin pedals, my mate had them and she said they were shit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 March, 2020, 01:14:29 pm
Have you looked into a wheel with an inbuilt PM i.e. a powertap hub as an alternative? You might be pleasantly surprised.

Avoid the garmin pedals, my mate had them and she said they were shit.

I used to build wheels with Powertap... as a hub is a Novatec, so not very good in terms of bearing life, freehub alloy and pawls engagement, mine is a Hope RS, a lot better. I kind of like the Stages idea, easy enough to remove in 2 minutes if not needed
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 March, 2020, 01:16:34 pm
It depends what you want it for, how many bikes you want to use it on, what pedals you use, and other factors

Best thing is to read DC Rainmaker's power meter summary and get the strengths and limitations of each. 

For me, Stages is a good option.  I have two of them, which get shared between three bikes.  Ideally I'd buy a third one but it's only five minutes to swap them over.  Garmin pedals wouldn't work as I don't use that pedal / cleat system. 

4iiii is a slightly cheaper alternative to Stages, and there are other cheaper options.  I've also got a Powertap Powercal (heart rate strap that gives power readings) which would be fine for much of my usage which is about pacing the start of longer rides.  I got my first Stages before I got the PowerCal, otherwise I might not have bothered with Stages at all.  But it would be no good for short interval training.   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 March, 2020, 01:18:04 pm
But it would be no good for short interval training.

What does it mean?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 March, 2020, 01:48:49 pm
It gives a good view of average power over a long period but it doesn't respond very quickly to changes in effort 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 March, 2020, 02:00:26 pm
The Garmin pedals are now on their 3rd version - the first 2 had their issues but the 3rd seem to be a bit more stable.
The pedals that most recommend are the Assioma ones. All the pedal systems use a look cleat (or something pretty close - the Powertap ones I have are slightly different ans therefore proprietory), so you have to be happy with that cleat system.

DCRainmaker is the oracle, and not much has changed recently, so his reviews are good. If you would prefer video reviews, check out the GPLama youtube channel.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 March, 2020, 02:19:44 pm
The Garmin pedals are now on their 3rd version - the first 2 had their issues but the 3rd seem to be a bit more stable.
The pedals that most recommend are the Assioma ones. All the pedal systems use a look cleat (or something pretty close - the Powertap ones I have are slightly different ans therefore proprietory), so you have to be happy with that cleat system.

DCRainmaker is the oracle, and not much has changed recently, so his reviews are good. If you would prefer video reviews, check out the GPLama youtube channel.

THing is I use a mix of SPD and SPD SL, adding a new standard would mean new padals or more shoes, either way unnecessary hassle.
I think the crank based system is probably the simplest for me
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 March, 2020, 02:41:21 pm
I’m using dual sided stages and am happy with the ability to use SPDs
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 05 March, 2020, 02:54:04 pm
Talking of data, and those interested in it, https://intervals.icu/ (https://intervals.icu/) is worth a look (a better/more functional version of Elevate) if you've not yet seen it.

Plus the fella behind it, David Tinker, is very open to user input.  :thumbsup:

Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 05 March, 2020, 02:54:47 pm
Ordered on 0% finance....  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 05 March, 2020, 04:36:29 pm
stages is ok, i've done a few tests against the neo 2t and assioma duo pedals, they all transmit pretty similar readings. big step up from using vam calculations. it took me about a year to get used to it (i.e. to guess my wattage without looking).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 March, 2020, 05:01:42 pm
I should do some training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 05 March, 2020, 05:01:59 pm
Yeah, cutting down on hard efforts really seems to set me back.
I stopped intensity in October because of a niggling mystery injury. The injury is still there, and while I can do low intensity stuff higher up hurts, so my FTP will be down massively. I'll be talking to the physio about whether it's worth stopping riding completely for a month or 2 and focusing on gym work to try to fix me - I suspect that will basically wreck any chance of racing the TTT at Silverstone this June. :(

I took a break from the turbo over the summer and a drop in outdoor cycling in autumn due to holiday. First few weeks back hitting the higher intensities was nigh on impossible or at least I wasn’t prepared to do it. More recent workouts I’m sitting 94-98% of my max HR during the intervals. It is why the preparation and base periods are well worth doing if you’ve had a break. They get you ready for the much harder efforts to come.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 March, 2020, 05:10:58 pm
I didn't do a lot last Autumn - by which I really mean from 1 August last year when I dropped out of the TCR until this Monday, when I finally got into training again - so not much more than commuting for about 7 months (I hadn't realised it was quite so long). 

My fitness has drifted a bit, but not a massive amount, but I really couldn't hang in very long at the sharp end of a ramp test.  Therefore it has given me some low FTP readings and I have had to up the workouts by 10% to get something reasonably worthwhile. 

Really I should try doing a different test, but don't fancy 20 minutes on turbo somehow.  I might be up for 8 minutes in Richmond Park. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Zed43 on 05 March, 2020, 06:09:05 pm
The Garmin pedals are now on their 3rd version - the first 2 had their issues but the 3rd seem to be a bit more stable.
As the owner of a pair of Garmin Vector3 pedals I highly recommend you stay the fuck away from them. I have the improved battery doors and they are still unreliable as heck.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 05 March, 2020, 08:39:20 pm
I did train. 6x6m.

Been a bad start to the year. Two colds in January left me with a lingering cough which is still with me and it’s been irritating me on the turbo. I’ve been prescribed a steroid nasal spray which seems to be slowly helping. Or I’m just improving. Anyway tonight was better than last time I trained. FTP manually set to 215W for now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 05 March, 2020, 08:47:22 pm
I’ve managed to clock 2000 miles by the end of Feb, just counting road rides.  It’s been roughly 3 turbos a week totalling 4hrs.  Weekend rides are much hillier than the past as I’m changing direction from TTs.  I have managed to be quite consistent and reasonably happy but my motivation has come and gone.  Road distances increase during March and April.  I think real life might get in the way a bit in the next few months but we’ll see.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 March, 2020, 08:55:39 pm
The Garmin pedals are now on their 3rd version - the first 2 had their issues but the 3rd seem to be a bit more stable.
The pedals that most recommend are the Assioma ones. All the pedal systems use a look cleat (or something pretty close - the Powertap ones I have are slightly different ans therefore proprietory), so you have to be happy with that cleat system.

DCRainmaker is the oracle, and not much has changed recently, so his reviews are good. If you would prefer video reviews, check out the GPLama youtube channel.

THing is I use a mix of SPD and SPD SL, adding a new standard would mean new padals or more shoes, either way unnecessary hassle.
I think the crank based system is probably the simplest for me
If you want to use SPD or SPD SL then the pedal based ones aren't for you. Crank based (left only) are the cheapest and are good. 4iiii tend to be a little cheaper than Stages. There used to be problems with the battery doors on Stages, but I think they are better now - worth checking that out if you go for them.
The Spider based ones measure total power better than dual-sided cranks, but given budget was a key consideration, a left only crank seems the best answer.

In terms of training, I have been doing around 1 hour of relatively low intensity on the turbo and a couple of gym sessions per week. My hip is still problematic, so I have an appointment at the sports injuries clinic in a couple of weeks (NHS wait was many months :( ).  Right now I feel like I'll be lucky if I can race CX this autumn (or even commute reliably).  :'(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 06 March, 2020, 03:05:26 pm
Stages delivered in record time by Sigma... and fitted... installed on the Edge and went round the corner to see if it works.. all seems fine.
In terms of numbers of the display, which is the one you guys find most useful, I was thinking 10s average, as opposed to 3s average, which might move a bit too much
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 06 March, 2020, 03:30:33 pm
I use 3s average which is essentially realtime but irons out spikes.  I think 10s is too lon if you are "training"
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 06 March, 2020, 03:47:22 pm
I should do some training.
i had a month's break from training and tried to restart with over-unders today. after tasting blood during the warmup i still perservered out of curiosity. managed 3min of the first interval (which felt like vo2max) and threw the towel in. will retest my ftp (my guestimate 240-250w) and start again from humble beginnings.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 06 March, 2020, 03:48:40 pm
It depends what you are doing.  If you are doing 5 sec sprint intervals, you need real time.  If you just want average power over a ride, or are only doing intervals which are a few minutes in duration, anything is fine. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 06 March, 2020, 03:51:46 pm
I should do some training.
i had a month's break from training and tried to restart with over-unders today. after tasting blood during the warmup i still perservered out of curiosity. managed 3min of the first interval (which felt like vo2max) and threw the towel in. will retest my ftp (my guestimate 240-250w) and start again from humble beginnings.

Nasty!  Did you just set FTP too high, or is there something horrible in your lungs?

I've just been to Richmond Park to do 5x10.  Took me 45 minutes longer than doing it on the turbo would have done but much more pleasant on a sunny day.  Lots of people riding in shorts, with air temperature of 8-9 degrees!  A few even in short sleeves. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 06 March, 2020, 03:57:52 pm
It depends what you are doing.  If you are doing 5 sec sprint intervals, you need real time.  If you just want average power over a ride, or are only doing intervals which are a few minutes in duration, anything is fine.

If I do intervals, they will be on hills, so 1-5 minutes, rather than 5-10 seconds... I'll try the 10s setting and see how I get on
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 06 March, 2020, 04:23:10 pm
I should do some training.
i had a month's break from training and tried to restart with over-unders today. after tasting blood during the warmup i still perservered out of curiosity. managed 3min of the first interval (which felt like vo2max) and threw the towel in. will retest my ftp (my guestimate 240-250w) and start again from humble beginnings.

Nasty!  Did you just set FTP too high, or is there something horrible in your lungs?

I've just been to Richmond Park to do 5x10.  Took me 45 minutes longer than doing it on the turbo would have done but much more pleasant on a sunny day.  Lots of people riding in shorts, with air temperature of 8-9 degrees!  A few even in short sleeves.

i haven't adjusted ftp and tried to see how it will go at the level i've been training a month ago (270w) - clearly too high. tasting blood is quite common for high intensity work, especially when not being used to it.

it's lovely outside, tomorrow looks good too!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 06 March, 2020, 04:26:09 pm
It depends what you are doing.  If you are doing 5 sec sprint intervals, you need real time.  If you just want average power over a ride, or are only doing intervals which are a few minutes in duration, anything is fine.

If I do intervals, they will be on hills, so 1-5 minutes, rather than 5-10 seconds... I'll try the 10s setting and see how I get on

10s is too laggy for me (would be ok for tt's, ironman etc.)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 06 March, 2020, 04:36:37 pm
Worked from home today for business continuity purposes.  Did a 90min mock commute first thing.

Lunchtime I did the session I skipped on Tuesday night.   I forgot that I prefer people in the house when I do high intensity stuff.   Still, made it through OK.   2hr turbo tomorrow and audax on Sunday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 06 March, 2020, 05:20:40 pm
Worked from home today for business continuity purposes.  Did a 90min mock commute first thing.

Lunchtime I did the session I skipped on Tuesday night.   I forgot that I prefer people in the house when I do high intensity stuff.   Still, made it through OK.   2hr turbo tomorrow and audax on Sunday.

Good point, never thought of that. 
I mainly do turbos when I'm working form home, which I do most days at the moment. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 06 March, 2020, 05:45:17 pm
Worked from home today for business continuity purposes.  Did a 90min mock commute first thing.

Lunchtime I did the session I skipped on Tuesday night.   I forgot that I prefer people in the house when I do high intensity stuff.   Still, made it through OK.   2hr turbo tomorrow and audax on Sunday.

Good point, never thought of that. 
I mainly do turbos when I'm working form home, which I do most days at the moment.

Prompted by someone we both know having a stroke whilst on the turbo, to be honest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 06 March, 2020, 06:07:07 pm
Worked from home today for business continuity purposes.  Did a 90min mock commute first thing.

Lunchtime I did the session I skipped on Tuesday night.   I forgot that I prefer people in the house when I do high intensity stuff.   Still, made it through OK.   2hr turbo tomorrow and audax on Sunday.

Good point, never thought of that. 
I mainly do turbos when I'm working form home, which I do most days at the moment.

Prompted by someone we both know having a stroke whilst on the turbo, to be honest.

If that happens to me, I'm unlikely to be heard.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 06 March, 2020, 08:26:22 pm
Re: power meter display settings, FWIW (not a lot!) , I also use Power (3 sec), and on the climbing page (this is Wahoo, not Garmin) I use Power (3 sec)/FTP %.

Climbing is one of the few occasions I actually ride off power (vs. just collecting data), and displaying it as a % of FTP rather than the raw number makes it (i) less jumpy since the 2 digit % has less resolution than a 3 digit W number and (ii) makes the number I'm 'targeting' relatively independent of changing fitness, eg. I might target 90% on a very long climb, or 115% on a short one, and as long as my FTP is set "correctly" then I can target roughly the same % across the season (even though the corresponding W number will change over the season). Not the best explanation but I'm sure someone knows what I mean...

I rode outside today - a very rare occurrence these past few months - experiencing actual live sunshine and ruined roads. I've spent so long in Erg Mode indoors that I momentarily forgot how to change down when I hit the bottom of a 20%-er and shifted the wrong way down the block.:facepalm:  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 07 March, 2020, 11:32:34 am
Predictably, I am already hooked to the numbers... efforts are very similar to what I expected them to be... if anything a bit higher... didn't know I could churn out 500-600 Watt for more than a few seconds.... average power on the day a lot higher than Strava estimated, which also is what I expected... you can't hammer yourself for 3 hours, return home spent and be told that you used 120 Watt on average (which is what Strava thought the average was), 170 seems more likely...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 March, 2020, 12:11:55 pm
Predictably, I am already hooked to the numbers... efforts are very similar to what I expected them to be... if anything a bit higher... didn't know I could churn out 500-600 Watt for more than a few seconds.... average power on the day a lot higher than Strava estimated, which also is what I expected... you can't hammer yourself for 3 hours, return home spent and be told that you used 120 Watt on average (which is what Strava thought the average was), 170 seems more likely...  :thumbsup:

Depressingly the time I can hold 500W has reduced from 45s in 2012 to 38s last year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 07 March, 2020, 12:50:08 pm
Predictably, I am already hooked to the numbers... efforts are very similar to what I expected them to be... if anything a bit higher... didn't know I could churn out 500-600 Watt for more than a few seconds.... average power on the day a lot higher than Strava estimated, which also is what I expected... you can't hammer yourself for 3 hours, return home spent and be told that you used 120 Watt on average (which is what Strava thought the average was), 170 seems more likely...  :thumbsup:

Depressingly the time I can hold 500W has reduced from 45s in 2012 to 38s last year.

Doesn't seem a big difference... surely it's a case of 38 on an average day and 45 on a good day...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 07 March, 2020, 12:53:24 pm
Isn't it also from random ride data rather than targeted attempts at holding 500W average for as long as you can?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 07 March, 2020, 01:01:03 pm
Isn't it also from random ride data rather than targeted attempts at holding 500W average for as long as you can?

Both from random outdoor rides. I’m pretty sure the drop is real though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 10 March, 2020, 04:28:16 pm
They say the silliest questions are the ones that you think of but are scared to ask...

So, I'll ask it:

Are intervals supposed to be always as hard as you can do or are they sometimes meant to be somewhat easy? 

In my pre-smart trainer days, I implicitly assumed the former and would put out as much power as I felt I was able to, while still getting to the end - pretty much like I would pace a TT.  However, with TRainerroad on a smart trainer, some (not all) interal sessions are not easy, but fairly comfortable.  I don't mean the recovery ride ones (as I don't do those on a turbo anyway) but sweet spot intervals. 

Sometimes I up my resistance by a good chunk (10% on Monday) to make them a bit harder, but they are still not that hard. 

Are they meant to be easily achievable, and they are giving me an optimum level of workout which doesn't leave me knackered for the next day, or have I just got my FTP reading too low?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 10 March, 2020, 04:36:12 pm
There's different intervals for different purposes.
Generally I can do threshold intervals without it feeling like I'm going to die, and quite a few of them. Or VO2Max sprints with a long recovery.

The point of sweet spot intervals is that you can keep doing them day after day. They're less effective but don't take it out of you, so you can recover and do it again sooner.

So yes, as per your last paragraph. Just because that's true doesn't mean your FTP is set correctly, though!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 10 March, 2020, 04:51:57 pm
I am prescribed a range of different intervals over time.   I think it's to stop me from getting bored.   The last few weeks have been very toppy with 20s/30s/40s intervals at 90% effort (not 90% FTP).   At the end of the 40s I was gasping for air with a HR in the 180s.   This was done 8 times with differing recoveries.

I've also been doing 6 * 10mins at what I'd call tempo and some pyramid style efforts which go endurance/tempo/threshold/VO2max and then back down.

If I finish any of these so battered I can't ride the next day then they're too hard.   The programme seems to be more about cumulative load and steady gains than anything else.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 10 March, 2020, 05:34:43 pm
Part of the reason I do a spinning class is that someone else has planned everything for me although it's easy to go too hard or too easy first few times. A few weeks of doing it and, with some analysis and googling, I can see what the individual sets are (in terms of %-age FTP) and what effect they should be having. The instructor never talks about FTP or similar (as it would be lost on most of the class) but I can now translate the terms he uses for the general gym user into "sweetspot", "threshold", etc. I also have got used to it and know the power that I can aim to hold for a certain period (e.g. a minute, two minutes, etc).

Obviously if you have a turbo at home you can get someone else to do the thinking by using Zwift or TrainerRoad or similar, but all I've got access to is a gym bike that displays power.

As others have said, what you want is variety. Doing 2x20 at 105% FTP is never fun at the best of times and doing it twice a week is a hideous thought, but stuff like 12x1 or 3x8 or pyramids or steps can be much less hideous, and then there's always sweetspot work with sprints and recoveries which rarely feels dreadful.

With just access to a gym bike (and no instructor) I'm using it to do a ramp test[1] every few weeks, and then picking various things from my spinning classes (i.e. 3x8 at xW or 12x1 at yW) and try and follow those as best I can in the other weeks.

[EDIT] Here's an example spinning class: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/4636420949 there's a bit of faff at the beginning with him walking some new people through the "sprint shift" lever and the resistance wheel (they're Stages spinning bikes) but the main stuff starts just after 8:30. If you expand the power graph and then overlay cadence it makes most sense. There are 4 main sections:-
* gradual warm up at 90rpm from easy (100W), medium (160W) and then target as much as you can hold for 1 minute (but make it - I chose 350W), a brief recovery (20s or so) and then straight back into it turning the resistance wheel up until you grind to a halt.
* recovery then 3 sets of sweetspot work with 90s at 90rpm and ~90% FTP and then a minute at 100rpm (without changing resistance) and then a 20s sprint at 120rpm, 50s recovery between and repeat another 2 times
* longer recovery (3 mins) then 9 minutes of sweetspot work of a baseline of 90rpm at ~90% FTP with 3x20s sprints and 1x30s sprint at 120rpm going straight back to 90rpm with no recovery
* 2 min recovery and then similar of 4.5 minutes up near FTP with 4 sprints at 110rpm with no recovery, straight back to 90rpm, one minute recovery (in reality it's longer than this, I just stopped the watch early) and then stop and stretch

Other classes have very different shapes, this one was obviously a sweetspot day, other days often have more of the "all in for one minute" intervals or even a "don't get past 55s" interval where you just keep on piling on the resistance until you're done.

1. With my current FTP of ~210W I do a ~4 min warm up (with a few 5s sprints to 120rpm) and then do a minute at 150W (i.e. start somewhere around 3/5 to 3/4 of your current FTP), then a minute at 175W, etc and upwards all the way until I fail to hold a minute at the next target, then a ~4 min cool down. A reasonable estimate of your FTP is then 75% of your peak 1 minute power. It's only 14-15 minutes for the whole thing and should only be a few minutes of hideousness. The progression is required to build in fatigue, as without the preload I can hold a much higher figure for a minute (I've never managed to complete the 300W minute but, in isolation, I can just about hold 400W for a minute).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 10 March, 2020, 06:50:01 pm
Depends on what training regime you subscribe to.

If you subscribe to the Polarised model then yes your intervals are always hard.  Then your easy volume rides are easy. Polarised also advocates around 20% of sessions are hard. You don’t do any threshold or sweet spot work.

If you subscribe to the more sweet spot or threshold model then your intervals will be easier and you’ll do more of these quite hard sessions.

You can argue over which is better bang for buck and the research is out there. But firstly it’ll come down to frequency and consistency of whatever you are doing. If you can’t get this bit right then doesn’t matter what programme you think you are following. So do what works for you.



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 March, 2020, 09:47:35 am
There's a reason why it's called sweetspot - it's hard enough to get good physiological responses, but easy enough you can do loads of it.
If you make your sweetspot intervals into threshold ones then as the plan builds over time you will wear yourself down and be unable to do the later ones (because of fatigue). There's relatively little point in paying TR to do the planning for you and then not following it. ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 11 March, 2020, 11:40:52 am

You can argue over which is better bang for buck and the research is out there. But firstly it’ll come down to frequency and consistency of whatever you are doing.

https://youtu.be/jFXnjPvyO1M

Decent summary there. Alex from Fast fitness tips is a Prof at Leicester, and knows about evidence synthesis. I wouldn't want him as a coach, and his voice is borderline unlistenable, but he pulls the evidence together efficiently.

I would like to be able to stick to polarised, but compared to managing your TSB so that you don't get injured, and progressively raising your CTL with a sensible ramp rate, it's marginal. The effect sizes are small.

I've ground myself into the ground doing 700+ TSS weeks of sweet spot for months on end, losing all top end power before. I'm trying to mix up vo2 sessions with long z2 sessions and the occasional sweet spot and anaerobic capacity session, within the context of keeping my TSB around 30 and building towards a CTL of 75 in time for the old 240 in July.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 March, 2020, 11:45:36 am
I think just doing sweet spot only is going to lead to stagnation and burn out. 700TSS weeks of sweet spot would be more than I could sustain.

I'm still getting back from illness and doing the SSB low volume, but I'm replacing the Tuesday workout, which is usually SS, with a VO2max. I'm miles off where I was before Christmas, and it's a bit annoying, but things could be worse.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 12 March, 2020, 06:40:41 am
Interesting, thanks. 

I think my main issue is that I don't have much confidence in the ramp test as an accurate way to measure my FTP.  Essentially, I think it is under-measuring significantly and making intervals based on it easier than they ought to be to actually be sweet spot. 

I need to try a different test!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 12 March, 2020, 08:59:26 am
Interesting, thanks. 

I think my main issue is that I don't have much confidence in the ramp test as an accurate way to measure my FTP.  Essentially, I think it is under-measuring significantly and making intervals based on it easier than they ought to be to actually be sweet spot. 

I need to try a different test!
You know how to pace - do the 20 minute test. The Ramp test is really good if you don't have much pacing experience or if you have a sharp edge. If you've (only) been doing tons of base work, I suspect it will under read until you get some VO2 in.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 12 March, 2020, 10:16:51 am
Call me old fashioned but why not just do a 1-hour FTP test?  It seems that there is a constant need by trainers and training companies (big business these days) to re-invent the wheel.

I can see the point in things like ramp tests where a quick approximation is required but if you are doing this yourself with no time restrictions surely the best way to find your FTP is, by definition, a 1-hour FTP session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 12 March, 2020, 10:27:07 am
Sure, but it's hard to do it properly for no reason (i.e. not in a 25 mile TT).

The whole point of the other tests is that they can give a fairly accurate estimate of FTP without needing to do an entire hour but, as has been pointed out, they come with various caveats.
* 1 hour at FTP is hideous.
* 95% of 20 minute power is much less stressful but still hideous.

The less hideous it is the more sensitive it is to little things like testing familiarity, over compensation, etc.

The other main point is that to do an hour at FTP you need to have a reasonable idea of what your FTP is in order to aim for that power for the entire hour, and that puts you back at square one. For tests like the ramp test you don't need to know anything in advance, simply add on a chunk of power every 1 or 3 minutes (depending on which protocol you're doing).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 12 March, 2020, 12:00:29 pm
If you hate doing FTP tests, you can always pay for blood lactate testing - my test result was within 4w of my Zwift FTP test. Just beware that some places use a cheap protocol that doesn't let you warm up first, which gives errant results. The Porsche human performance place at Silverstone did a useless test on my brother without letting him warm up.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 12 March, 2020, 03:35:10 pm
Interesting, thanks. 

I think my main issue is that I don't have much confidence in the ramp test as an accurate way to measure my FTP.  Essentially, I think it is under-measuring significantly and making intervals based on it easier than they ought to be to actually be sweet spot. 

I need to try a different test!

Zwift workout plans have a zone checker at the start of the programme- whereby you do a set of intervals and it tells you how they should feel:
https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/fondo/week-1-zwift-fondo-wk1-wo1-welcome/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 24 March, 2020, 04:09:25 pm
If anyone wants to try Trainer Road for a month for free during the lockdown, message me an email address and I'll refer you. The only restriction is that you can't have used that email with TR before.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 24 March, 2020, 04:22:44 pm
Sulking......
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 25 March, 2020, 07:15:10 am
I've been living with a power meter for two weeks now. Cancellation of all AUK events + semi curfew means I have refocussed my cycling and been out for shorter rides... my 4 hours have become 1.5-2. What the power meter does is alert me to push harder. Sometimes I feel I am having a good workout, but really I'm only doing 160 Watt, not to speak about only doing 60 or so on slight downhills. So I feel guilty and push harder. The net result is that average speed has gone up by nearly 2 mph, which is very big. Of course PR galore on Strava.
Weight has gone down by almost 3 kg, but that is probably due to WFH and the lack of biscuits and cakes and various junk food one eats at work.
All being well, I might be lean and mean for the autumn hill climb season!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 25 March, 2020, 10:39:41 am
I've been living with a power meter for two weeks now. Cancellation of all AUK events + semi curfew means I have refocussed my cycling and been out for shorter rides... my 4 hours have become 1.5-2. What the power meter does is alert me to push harder. Sometimes I feel I am having a good workout, but really I'm only doing 160 Watt, not to speak about only doing 60 or so on slight downhills. So I feel guilty and push harder. The net result is that average speed has gone up by nearly 2 mph, which is very big. Of course PR galore on Strava.
Weight has gone down by almost 3 kg, but that is probably due to WFH and the lack of biscuits and cakes and various junk food one eats at work.
All being well, I might be lean and mean for the autumn hill climb season!  :thumbsup:

That's an interesting point, if you are out doing a steady state ride you be pushing zone 2 power on the downhills, many cyclists just coast.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 25 March, 2020, 11:34:29 am
Just back from my one a day in the great outdoors

1.5 hours, 30 km/h average, 180 Watt average, 195 Watt Weighted average (whatever that is)... a couple of short 20 second bursts at 500 Watt...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Greenbank on 25 March, 2020, 12:19:43 pm
Watt Weighted average (whatever that is)

Usually something like Normalised Power (from https://medium.com/critical-powers/formulas-from-training-and-racing-with-a-power-meter-2a295c661b46 ):-

Quote
Normalized Power

Normalized Power (NP) is a metric to quantify training intensity with power data and is introduced by Andrew Coggan. The concept of NP is discussed in chapter 7 of the book. It is especially useful in conjuction with the other algorithms below.

    Step 1: Calculate the rolling average with a window of 30 seconds: Start at 30 seconds, calculate the average power of the previous 30 seconds and to the for every second after that.

    Step 2: Calculate the 4th power of the values from the previous step.

    Step 3: Calculate the average of the values from the previous step.

    Step 4: Take the fourth root of the average from the previous step. This is your normalized power.

Raising things to the 4th power means that big power spikes are worth a lot more than smooth power.

Putting it another way, 1 hour of smooth 150W is much easier than 15 minutes of 600W spread out over an hour with 45 minutes or rest. But with a naive average they'd both be considered "equal". Normalised Power is an attempt to make an average that is more representative of the real world effort.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 25 March, 2020, 12:37:58 pm
I see,

so the expectation is that the more varied the terrain the more the two values will diverge, given hills inevitably lead to higher bursts of power, over flats, unless one is deliberately doing "intervals".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 March, 2020, 06:26:18 pm
TrainerRoad have just launched group workouts. Good timing (not by accident, I suspect).

Edit: link (https://blog.trainerroad.com/introducing-group-workouts/)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 31 March, 2020, 07:54:28 pm
Sulking......

Race bike back on the turbo.   First go in race position since last September and did 90 mins.   Glutes and hips will need some stretching out.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 01 April, 2020, 08:56:27 am
I am trying to keep some focus by restarting TrainerRoad ss base if I can keep that up it will take me 3 months down the road and we can see where we are all at.
I have knocked down my ftp by 10 watts (at least for the first 6 weeks)so I don’t find the sessions to hard as I can’t see any point in that with the current situation .
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 April, 2020, 09:54:12 am
I have costochronditis, so I can't train at all. :( I tried doing Volunteer, which is 30 minutes of low intensity, and it felt relatively hard while I was doing it and irritated my ribs. So I basically can't do any exercise that requires me to breathe deeply until they are better. I'm gonna come out of this lockdown weighing 10kg more and with an FTP 100W down on my peak from 2 summers ago.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Phil W on 01 April, 2020, 10:25:16 am
I’m doing high intensity once a week and the rest low intensity. So hopefully it won’t get easier nor get harder.  A fitness plateau is fine right now. A holding pattern to minimise losses.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 02 April, 2020, 06:36:03 pm
Now consistently doing 90 minutes @ 200-205 Watt average, average speed steadily > 30 km/h. Having lost weight, that means about 3 W/kg.

Trying to work on short < 1 minute bursts at 400-500 Watt. The other day I managed 20 s at 525 Watt, which I was quit pleased with  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 April, 2020, 06:47:06 pm
Now consistently doing 90 minutes @ 200-205 Watt average, average speed steadily > 30 km/h. Having lost weight, that means about 3 W/kg.

Trying to work on short < 1 minute bursts at 400-500 Watt. The other day I managed 20 s at 525 Watt, which I was quit pleased with  :thumbsup:

Good effort. I managed similar for 20s yesterday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 08 April, 2020, 11:22:22 am
Now steadily doing 90 min at 205-210 Watt weighted average... put on some "summer" fast tyres and average speed has gone up to > 31 km/h...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 15 April, 2020, 01:44:02 pm
Still doing 90 minutes a day, now 210-220 W weighted average and 32 km/h... wonder when I am going to peak...  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 18 April, 2020, 05:21:18 pm
My "season" was focused on prep for an Alps trip in July, but that trip's now deferred to 2021. I'm carrying on with my TR training plan but without the July fixed date to peak at...

This means using TR more akin to how it used to operate prior to their Calendar introduction: none of my outdoor rides (or runs) replace any TR workouts, they just push the TR workouts into the future, so I still intend to do, indoors, pretty much every remaining workout in the Build (nearly done) & Speciality phases I'd originally planned in. The outdoor stuff is adding lots of base-type work + bouts of high intensity. Unlikely to do any Ramp Tests though, just play it by ear and err on the cautious/lower side.

Should have me sort of peaking somewhere between late July and Sept, depending on "events" and most importantly the weather!

The intention of still following the TR plan, albeit stretched out and absent the tests, is to keep some focus so I don't just amble around for a few months and find by late summer my fitness has slid markedly, leaving me a bigger mountain to climb for next season.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 18 April, 2020, 06:05:00 pm
I had been building steadily from early Jan.  April and May were to be about pushing the weekend rides longer and lumpier, keeping the turbo work shorter and higher intensity.  With my goals moving and being rescheduled the earliest I can consider needing to be fit is probably August.  With this in mind I chatted through the plan with my coach and we’re on more of a hold programme.

My road riding is now flat to what I did in Feb/Mar and the turbo volume has been increased but the intensity dropped with all work now in TT position.  We’ll be in this pattern for a couple of months and maybe put a build in when I know what races I can do.  What this may mean is that I build fitness by the Autumn where there are a couple of races I could do and then carry this through to 2021.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 19 April, 2020, 08:30:51 pm
I have been commuting at least 3 days a week and an hour in each direction. All done on steel single speed with pannier and laptop. I have stopped wearing a heart monitor and only look at the total time for the ride.  My commute is gradually getting longer as I get faster and is generally flat/ rolling with about 10m per I’m rise.
When I got to a speed where my feet were turning as fast as felt possible I dropped from 18 tooth to 16.  Now looking for a larger front chain ring.
Gradually getting faster but removing all the extra bits means I have no hesitation in slowing down to appreciate the sunrise, watch the lambs and check out the changing countryside. I am really enjoying cycling!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Hot Flatus on 19 April, 2020, 09:04:13 pm
That's great! It's funny how it comes along like that and you hit a golden period.  I find it is when other things permit. I had  a great time a couple of summers ago when the pressure was off at work a bit and I could risk being late a little without repercussion. I would vary my commute every day, sometimes setting off at 5.30am, and gambling on doing extra loops when I wasnt sure I had time. Plus, this spring is sublime
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 28 April, 2020, 10:36:47 am
back on a turbo with the first hiit session today, after a ten week break. i did a "basin" workout, the last minute of each interval stung quite a bit. haven't done the ftp test since november last year, but it feels about the same (the workouts are still doable).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 28 April, 2020, 11:02:34 am
I did Carter and Volunteer over the weekend. They felt OK, hard enough to know you've been working, but easy enough to watch YouTube! I was trying to do Volunteer alongside my daughter, but she was having trouble clipping into her pedals which interrupted my rise somewhat (someone gave her a pair of MTB shoes last 'cross season and now she wants to clip in like everyone else). I'm going to need to get her slick tyres (and maybe even hook up the speed sensor) if she persists in using her turbo. :)

I didn't use my chest HR strap because that makes my ribs worse, but the only solution to them is a new desk and ergonomic sitting position. I'm going to try to do short workouts like those 3 or 4 times a week for a little while until I've sorted out the WFH desk properly and my ribs are properly better. I reckon a ramp test now would knacker them for weeks!

Side bonus - I have a lost a bit of weight in the lockdown despite not riding much. I think it's because the office has loads of junk food floating around, and I have little willpower when there are free donuts! The scales are reporting a drop in body fat %, so it can't all be muscle loss!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 28 April, 2020, 11:09:39 am


Side bonus - I have a lost a bit of weight in the lockdown despite not riding much. I think it's because the office has loads of junk food floating around, and I have little willpower when there are free donuts! The scales are reporting a drop in body fat %, so it can't all be muscle loss!

Same here... junk food at work removed and I am 4 kg lighter... without doing any dieting... not keen to go back any time soon
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 28 April, 2020, 11:19:55 am
Quality of my diet has improved a fair bit. I'm doing lots of home cooked veg.

Although the banoffee pie I made on Sunday...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 28 April, 2020, 11:59:43 am
My diet is worse stuck indoors. I'm too good a baker, much more bored, and doing lots fewer steps.

I'm now going to have to make a big effort diet wise, winning all my races in the lowest cat has inevitably bumped me into the next category where I doubt very much I will feature on the podium. Not without significant weightloss, anyway. I'm putting out the same watts as the highest cat ladies, but they aren't carrying 30kg of lard around.

We've got a date for one of the cancelled events so that is something to aim for, (even if I don't really think it will happen) and the team race director has big plans for an indoor summer. It's enough to keep me going, I think.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 30 April, 2020, 11:53:43 pm
I'm nearly at the end of SSB I. I've not failed anything yet despite bumping my FTP by 10W after two weeks. Last two workouts, McAdie +1 and Galena at the weekend, look tough.

I've been doing VO2max on Tuesdays instead of sweet-spot. Nicking the Tuesdays from SSBII. Last couple of Tuesdays have been brutal after the bump, but I clung on.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 May, 2020, 06:21:48 pm
I’ve had a good few weeks.  Volume is steady but not much hard work of top end.  I went round the club sportive route with a 14 minute PB yesterday. 

Of course I then failed on today’s turbo session.  My phone went off and interrupted the warm up.  My HR wouldn’t come up as I increased the effort and I just couldn’t be arsed to thrash myself.  I then thought I had broken the resistance handle on the turbo but a bit of WD40 resolved that.

Back at it next week without much resolution on what event(s) I am targeting.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 May, 2020, 09:37:06 pm
I’ve completed the 5 week block now onto a recovery week. Hardest workout of the block was yesterday with 4x12m over-unders. It was easier than expected. I think I’m outrunning the increase in difficulty at the moment. Today could have been 3x20 sweet spot but I went out for 3 hours in the drizzle. Legs felt fine despite yesterday’s work.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 May, 2020, 10:39:19 pm
Today's workout was my 6th in a fortnight. Prior to that I've not even managed 3 rides in a week this year! Only been doing short rides (Volunteer and Carter), but will bump up to doing 3 hours a week and then get back on the horse of base. Not decided if I want to do trad base or sweet spot. I don't think there's going to be any CX racing this autumn (Central and Scottish leagues have cancelled already, Wessex have said they are keeping going at the moment), so Plan Builder is going to be odd...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 May, 2020, 11:08:41 pm
My plan is set to finish in July.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 04 May, 2020, 05:59:46 am
Did a mock 10 mile TT yesterday afternoon... bit of a lumpy course with about 10 mt of climbing every km, B roads and a couple of lanes... all left turns, so no need to slow down much...

Quite pleased with 3.5 Watt/kg average (apparently works out 3.6 when weighted) over 28 minutes... I've also finished quite strong with the last climb at 6 Watt/kg for just over a minute
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 04 May, 2020, 08:17:34 am


I'm now going to have to make a big effort diet wise, winning all my races in the lowest cat has inevitably bumped me into the next category where I doubt very much I will feature on the podium.

Bronze. :smug:

Another theoretical ftp bump - if you thrash yourself for an hour I guess that's inevitable... Tempo+ workout at 236 didn't feel like death.
Another 3 weeks of this build plan, a week off then a 12 week build will keep me occupied till the autumn. I had wanted this year to be a bit more outdoor than last. Pah.



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 May, 2020, 09:22:20 am
My plan is set to finish in July.

(click to show/hide)

At the moment at the end of Aug I could potentially do :-

National 12hr
RAtN on the rescheduled date
ACME Grand 1000

I have no idea whether these will happen.   TT riders are anti social buggers anyway so if you can't find a way to run a 12hr I'd be surprised.   RAtN may happen but I many not be able to get there if border controls are up.   I would like to do the ACME Grand again but we'll see what AUK come up with.   There is also the 24hr world champs early Oct in the US, but I suspect flying won't be on the cards for a long while.

If I can get myself into a good place by the Autumn, and I'm not really far off now, then I can back off a little and then carry through to the Spring.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 May, 2020, 09:33:48 am
My plan is set to finish in July.

(click to show/hide)
Is it like Base, Build, Base, Build, Specialty, repeat?
In January I set mine up to peak on Dec 8th, and it was like that. But I have an ongoing hip issue so want to take it slow, and I can't do the gym exercises I was doing to try to mitigate it (or see the consultant). I also managed to hurt my ribs with my posture at the laptop, which made me avoid intensity. While I have a new desk and my chair should arrive soon, I figure traditional base probably works OK given those limitations.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 May, 2020, 09:49:43 am
My plan is set to finish in July.

(click to show/hide)
Is it like Base, Build, Base, Build, Specialty, repeat?
In January I set mine up to peak on Dec 8th, and it was like that. But I have an ongoing hip issue so want to take it slow, and I can't do the gym exercises I was doing to try to mitigate it (or see the consultant). I also managed to hurt my ribs with my posture at the laptop, which made me avoid intensity. While I have a new desk and my chair should arrive soon, I figure traditional base probably works OK given those limitations.

Three cycles - Base I, II, Build, Speciality in the first two cycles and then the final cycle is Base II, Build, Speciality.

The "good" news is there's plenty time to get fit and resolve your injury problems.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 07 May, 2020, 06:57:54 pm
I'm trying to do cycles of microintervals or up to 1m30 in z5 / recovery / Z2 endurance / Z2 endurance

Having done nothing for over a year, 3mins at 190w was hard at the beginning of January, when I was about 86kg. FTP in the last ramp test was 244w, which is good for me. Weight is still coming off, but I'm down to 75kg. Want to get back around 71kg (I'm 6'2).

Trying not to be obsessive. I'm trying to keep to less than 7hrs a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 May, 2020, 05:53:36 pm
Tried myself out a bit recently on 2 local lumpy routes.

Hell of the Ashdown course - 67m 6,700ft.

28th March - 4h38m ave HR 139
2nd May - 4h24m ave HR 136

Invicta Grimpeur course - 62m 6,200ft

21st March - 4h38m ave HR 140
8th May - 4h07m ave HR 132

Same bike but new lighter wheels for the recent rides.   I’m about half a stone lighter.

I’ve never been a hilly 100k/sportive sort of rider but this might be tempting me to do something different.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 09 May, 2020, 09:08:24 pm
I've gone back to base for a bit since racing has been cancelled , 14h so far this week. Bitten by a dog yesterday but 45 miles @19mph today was encouraging.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 10 May, 2020, 06:58:43 am
Tried myself out a bit recently on 2 local lumpy routes.

Hell of the Ashdown course - 67m 6,700ft.

28th March - 4h38m ave HR 139
2nd May - 4h24m ave HR 136

Invicta Grimpeur course - 62m 6,200ft

21st March - 4h38m ave HR 140
8th May - 4h07m ave HR 132

Same bike but new lighter wheels for the recent rides.   I’m about half a stone lighter.

I’ve never been a hilly 100k/sportive sort of rider but this might be tempting me to do something different.

If you've never done the Fred Whitton Challenge, it's probably the best day out on a bike in the country. You also get spectators with cow bells cheering you on your way up Hardknott pass. I also "enjoyed" the Etape du Dales... they're both around 175 k with 3000-3500 mt of climibng
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 10 May, 2020, 05:08:11 pm
Today was 3 weeks straight of 3 rides a week. Time to get back into the TR plans (traditional base to start with). I've not Ramp tested in ages, so Tuesday (or Wednesday) will be the moment of truth. My FTP is currently set to 236 - anything over 215 would probably be a good result given how little (riding or consistency) I've had this year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 13 May, 2020, 01:49:03 pm
I took advantage of the new rules to drive down to Honeybourne and go out in the hills... did two reps of Saintbury, at about 8 minute each, so looking at the power and applying the 2 x 8 min FTP method, I get a 258 W, or 3.8 W/kg, which is just a tad higher than I thought (I had worked out I was around 250), but broadly in the ball park...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 May, 2020, 02:02:38 pm
Ramp test about an hour ago.  Went pretty deep, but not quite :sick:
231W (it said 232 on the screen straight afterwards so must have rounded down), down from 236W (in December). :)

I've barely done any riding this year, averaging at most 1 ride a week from January to mid-April (and those rides all 1 hour or less and low IF), so that's quite pleasing. Dunno if it says my last 3 weeks have been productive, or if that's just my baseline so long as I keep things ticking. Either way, it's above 3W/kg, so it's a good point to start my base season again. I quite like Traditional Base as it means I can watch Youtube/TV, so I'll do that for the next 3 weeks and see how I go after that. So long as I don't pig out it might also help drop just a little more fat.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 May, 2020, 02:19:16 pm
I did mine last night. 238W, up from 219W 6 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 13 May, 2020, 05:16:05 pm
20W up is a nice bump.  6 weeks - Sweet Spot Base? I or II?  I find II really hard - it's like the build plan but with 5 weeks before rest week instead of 3!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 13 May, 2020, 07:12:58 pm
I. I expect this will make II feel much harder.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 16 May, 2020, 04:26:59 pm
Crap week due to real life stuff.  No turbo since last Sunday.

Forced myself out on the road for 4hrs this morning.   Felt better for the rest.  Will try to get back on it next week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 May, 2020, 04:35:44 pm
I find SSB II like a slightly lower intensity build that lasts longer. I can see why, if you've just put your FTP up 20W it might hurt. You'll be faster by the end of it though.

4 hours is a pretty serious start! I did 1.25 hours on the turbo yesterday and it sucked. Longest ride this year! :( Must do stretching today - same again tomorrow!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 17 May, 2020, 05:32:45 pm
I find SSB II like a slightly lower intensity build that lasts longer. I can see why, if you've just put your FTP up 20W it might hurt. You'll be faster by the end of it though.

4 hours is a pretty serious start! I did 1.25 hours on the turbo yesterday and it sucked. Longest ride this year! :( Must do stretching today - same again tomorrow!

So far so good, 99% FTP on Kaweah felt ok yesterday, that's a 90m PB for this year. Today is Geiger +2, and assuming I complete that, that will further increase it, despite being an easier workout.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 21 May, 2020, 06:47:32 am
Tried myself out a bit recently on 2 local lumpy routes.

Hell of the Ashdown course - 67m 6,700ft.

28th March - 4h38m ave HR 139
2nd May - 4h24m ave HR 136

Invicta Grimpeur course - 62m 6,200ft

21st March - 4h38m ave HR 140
8th May - 4h07m ave HR 132

Same bike but new lighter wheels for the recent rides.   I’m about half a stone lighter.

I’ve never been a hilly 100k/sportive sort of rider but this might be tempting me to do something different.

That's pretty impressive. 
Without doing the maths, I'd expect that most of those gains would be from power and strength increase rather than weight loss.
Actually, just plugged some numbers into Bike Calculator and it suggests you might get 10-15 minutes from losing half a stone.  Your Invicta Grimpeur improvement must have had more power (unless they lifted the roadworks!)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 21 May, 2020, 08:39:08 am
I started Traditional Base last week. I had to stretch 4 times in the 1hr 15 of Whorl on Sunday.
Fletcher yesterday, which is 1 hour 30 minutes and with an IF of 0.68. I gave up at 45 minutes after having to stop 3 times to stretch my hip/psoas.
I give up. Gonna wait on my MRI letter and hope not to get too fat.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 21 May, 2020, 09:43:57 am
I'm wondering whether my recent hamstring disaster which has put me totally out of action for weeks was partly due to the TrainerRoad pedal technique sessions. 

I have always had tight hamstrings - I know this from Pilates.  They are under-used and inflexible, but have never caused me any real problem, so other than stretching I pretty much ignore them.

It was only when finishing the TR base month, which included quite a few "clock" intervals requiring to pull through the bottom of the stroke, that I borked the hamstring while running.  Coincidence? Did I overdo the pulling?  Who knows, but I'll be avoiding these when/if I resume.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the single-leg exercises also put a lot of strain on the hamstrings and did actually feel quite painful at the time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 21 May, 2020, 10:31:17 am
I don't do the single leg exercises. I think that without a really good core then they are actively bad for my technique as I use my pelvis in an attempt to smooth everything out. At least the clock exercises have the other leg along for assistance.
Commiserations on the hamstring. Take your recovery gently and don't push it too far too fast. Mine's never got back to 100% after I pulled it almost 20 years ago (and then tried to come back far too fast to help the team I was playing for).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 21 May, 2020, 11:08:26 am
I don't do the pedaling exercises. They're a load of rubbish. I've always assumed that they just put them in sessions that would otherwise be too boring for those with short attention spans, rather than for actual training benefit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 21 May, 2020, 03:36:59 pm
I avoid most of the drills. The workouts are hard enough already. I have been told my pedaling style is “punchy” which is probably coach speak for grossly inefficient.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: S2L on 21 May, 2020, 03:50:05 pm
100 seconds at 6 W/kg this morning... quite pleased... until I look at people who can hold that for an hour...  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 21 May, 2020, 06:08:22 pm
I have been told my pedaling style is “punchy” which is probably coach speak for grossly inefficient.

 ;D 

I'm going to follow the advice here and ignore the drills when I re-start TR.  If it feels wrong it's probably wrong!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 21 May, 2020, 06:28:00 pm
I don't do the pedaling exercises. They're a load of rubbish. I've always assumed that they just put them in sessions that would otherwise be too boring for those with short attention spans, rather than for actual training benefit.
Same.

Particularly as a lardarse, I am never going to be a spinner, stop trying to make me do 1w/kg @ 100rpm.

#AllTorque
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 22 May, 2020, 09:02:20 am
I avoid most of the drills. The workouts are hard enough already. I have been told my pedaling style is “punchy” which is probably coach speak for grossly inefficient.

I've seen criticism elsewhere of single leg drills.   I've never done them or had them prescribed.

I'm using my fixed race bike on the turbo and  using only one resistance setting.   Threshold work at 120rpm on the tri-bars is interesting but I am getting there.   Most work is between 90 and 110rpm which is a normal range for me.   I have been able to max out at 170rpm on short top end efforts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: LMT on 22 May, 2020, 09:25:03 am
Pedalling exercises are fine if done right, the issue here is TR making you pull up through the stroke which is bad form.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 May, 2020, 12:19:03 pm
I rode outside yesterday for the first time in 2020!
Had to stop halfway around a 25km loop to stretch my psoas/hip. I guess being outside and getting to stand up/freewheel/move around is not much better for it than sitting on the turbo. It's super tight today, even just sitting in my (new, nice) office chair. It's really got to me now - I'm not interested in training or even listening to performance type cycling podcasts (TR, FastTalk, Fascat, CX Radio). I'm going to put the bike away for a bit and find something else to do - there's no point in just keeping digging myself a bigger hole. :(
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 June, 2020, 03:49:17 pm
Real life is now getting in the way right at the point where I have a list mojo.

No structured work for the rest of the month and just normal riding.   Hopefully I can reset myself in time to salvage something from this year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 08 June, 2020, 04:23:40 pm
CTT sent an email today implying that club TTs might be allowed starting in July.  :thumbsup: Maybe that will help with getting the mojo back?

I've put my turbo away (and dismantled my laptop "table"). The bikes have gone in the back-garden storage area. I have physio exercises (for my calf muscle to fix my hip!), and he said I could ride but that I should stop as soon as I got tightness in my hip (and that the turbo was a better idea than outside where I would have to ride home). I can't muster the motivation to get changed and psyched up for a turbo ride only to have to quit after 15 minutes of aerobic riding. Gonna just make sure I get a long walk in each day as that doesn't bring on the hip tightness.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 June, 2020, 09:31:47 am
I've never been able to do the local club TTs as I couldn't get back from town early enough.   Once we move there's a chance as there seems to be a local series run by the club that I intend to join.   I haven't worked out where the turbo is going to go in the new place yet.   It doesn't have a garage but there's a shed and a patio.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 06 July, 2020, 10:12:48 pm
I am back on the turbo with an 8 week plan for an event that may or may not take place.  I have quit my job but the spare time I was supposed to have is being used for other things.  The turbo is currently on the patio while the weather holds.  I’ll need an alternative come Winter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 July, 2020, 09:13:26 am
Quitting your job to train seems a little excessive! ;)

I'm filling the garage with a project car. So whenever it is that I'm fit enough to train, it'll have to be outside or in the gym (maybe they will be open by then). One of the nearby gyms has Wattbikes, so maybe I can get TR to talk to that.  Otherwise, I'm not gonna get much value from the TR proposition (then again, I'm grandfathered in, so it costs me £100 a year or something, and I like all their other tools too).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: giropaul on 07 July, 2020, 09:18:37 am
CTT sent an email today implying that club TTs might be allowed starting in July.  :thumbsup: Maybe that will help with getting the mojo back?

I've put my turbo away (and dismantled my laptop "table"). The bikes have gone in the back-garden storage area. I have physio exercises (for my calf muscle to fix my hip!), and he said I could ride but that I should stop as soon as I got tightness in my hip (and that the turbo was a better idea than outside where I would have to ride home). I can't muster the motivation to get changed and psyched up for a turbo ride only to have to quit after 15 minutes of aerobic riding. Gonna just make sure I get a long walk in each day as that doesn't bring on the hip tightness.

It will be time trials, but not quite as we know it. Have a look at the full CTT guidance.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 July, 2020, 08:43:22 pm
Quitting your job to train seems a little excessive! ;)

Annoyingly I have another one to go to mid Sep.   Current lot seem to want me to do stuff which is most annoying.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DrMekon on 08 July, 2020, 01:42:05 pm
I've found that despite having 2 x 12" and 1 x18" fans on Zwift, I can't face it when it's warm outside. Was pissing sweat on a z2/z3 effort last night. Still not really enjoying the combination of my pretty new teeth and cycling on the road alone (better in company), so been running more and trying to stick to intervals, long runs and sociable runs, when all I want to do is run at tempo a pretty long way.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 08 July, 2020, 02:25:36 pm
GPLama (AKA Shane Miller) reckons you get much better cooling from directed/ducted fans, rather than the general "spray it everywhere" room fans - which is one reason why he rates the Kickr Headwind; that, and it's output is directly related to your input.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 July, 2020, 03:16:41 pm
GPLama (AKA Shane Miller) reckons you get much better cooling from directed/ducted fans, rather than the general "spray it everywhere" room fans - which is one reason why he rates the Kickr Headwind; that, and it's output is directly related to your input.

I bought this and I love it. I find I want my HR to tick over 170 so it goes to max output on the harder stuff. I don't use it set to speed mode as I'm always using TrainerRoad and want the cooling to be based on effort rather than speed, which doesn't vary much in an interval workout, since it's related to cadence.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 July, 2020, 01:36:25 pm
The fan the TR people recommend is not available in the UK, but this is a close approximation:
https://www.cleva-uk.com/products/vacmaster-air-mover

Much cheaper than a headwind, though you'll have to control it manually. There's also a discount code TRAINERROAD10 which gets you 10% off, such was the demand from the UK based TR peeps! ;) giant thread here: https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/uk-users-looking-for-a-lasko-fan-check-this-out-thanks-to-hugo1/9554
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 09 July, 2020, 01:50:52 pm
The fan the TR people recommend is not available in the UK, but this is a close approximation:
https://www.cleva-uk.com/products/vacmaster-air-mover

Much cheaper than a headwind, though you'll have to control it manually. There's also a discount code TRAINERROAD10 which gets you 10% off, such was the demand from the UK based TR peeps! ;) giant thread here: https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/uk-users-looking-for-a-lasko-fan-check-this-out-thanks-to-hugo1/9554

Thanks for the info, Duncan.  My floor fan just doesn't do the business in hot/humid weather.  Ordered with code!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 09 July, 2020, 10:08:20 pm
The fan the TR people recommend is not available in the UK, but this is a close approximation:
https://www.cleva-uk.com/products/vacmaster-air-mover

Much cheaper than a headwind, though you'll have to control it manually. There's also a discount code TRAINERROAD10 which gets you 10% off, such was the demand from the UK based TR peeps! ;) giant thread here: https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/uk-users-looking-for-a-lasko-fan-check-this-out-thanks-to-hugo1/9554

I've got one. It does shift a lot of air.

I've considered getting a remote control mains plug adapter so I could turn it on from my turbo when I've warned up, but not bothered so far, just stand up and reach over to do it when I need to.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 09 July, 2020, 10:16:12 pm
Using the turbo outside I thought would be refreshing but I have been over heating even in the current tepid conditions with quite a lot of cardiac drift.   There is an outside plug socket for the mower so I could run my fan from there.  It seems a bit excessive, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 09 July, 2020, 10:26:41 pm
Using the turbo outside I thought would be refreshing but I have been over heating even in the current tepid conditions with quite a lot of cardiac drift.   There is an outside plug socket for the mower so I could run my fan from there.  It seems a bit excessive, though.

I've always used a fan outside, even in coolish conditions.  It's the rapid movement of air over the skin that's needed to stop the sweat becoming an issue.  When the Cleva arrives (tomorrow - damn that was quick!) I'll be using a 2-fan system inside and out, fan and blower, and I'm not even a particularly heavy sweater.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 10 July, 2020, 08:32:55 am
Using the turbo outside I thought would be refreshing but I have been over heating even in the current tepid conditions with quite a lot of cardiac drift.   There is an outside plug socket for the mower so I could run my fan from there.  It seems a bit excessive, though.

Probably feels like doing a long, steep climb - working hard but with no air movement.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 11 July, 2020, 01:29:48 pm
The fan the TR people recommend is not available in the UK, but this is a close approximation:
https://www.cleva-uk.com/products/vacmaster-air-mover

Much cheaper than a headwind, though you'll have to control it manually. There's also a discount code TRAINERROAD10 which gets you 10% off, such was the demand from the UK based TR peeps! ;) giant thread here: https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/uk-users-looking-for-a-lasko-fan-check-this-out-thanks-to-hugo1/9554
Arrived this morning.  No time for a long bike session so some Pilates and then weights.  This thing is so much better than a traditional fan.

Thank you
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 11 July, 2020, 08:51:00 pm
I use turbo on patio, no fan. I have to do it in the morning before the sun moves round. Recumbent ftp now matched last years peak road bike ftp. So far, so good. Trick now it not to let it all fall away over autumn and then have to start building again as I seem to do each year.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 14 July, 2020, 07:52:18 pm
i did a ramp test today and was quite happy with the result. low expectations were due to (almost) no structured training this year, overheating and cba attitude (gave up at 179bpm). still managed to get the same 270w as i did in december.

i'll be doing three weeks of short power build now, for variety.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: morbihan on 16 July, 2020, 04:52:58 pm
just had a wee go at that Alpe Du Zwift for the first time. Its probably not the smartest thing to do in the middle of the Build Me Up Programme but its a relatively light week and I was super curious.
A question.  Im using a shared bike on the trainer and its just fine. A little clunky and the frame is too small really so not the same fit as my road bikes. Im a bit crowded on it TBH.  If I was to go to the faff of installing my road bike on the trainer would I likely see any perceivable power advantages? 
Im thinking not as you just sit there on a trainer and bash away with no concerns for wind/aero etc.

Plus one for installing a fan too.  We hadn't bothered until last week just using air-conditioning and thinking that was more than enough (Bermuda in July, air con is essential) I added a fan last week as well as the  air con on and the difference was incredible. Just a puddle of sweat on the floor now, not a swimming pool.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 16 July, 2020, 05:39:08 pm
Do you stand / sprint on the trainer?

(Also - top tip - do your workouts up the Alpe. All that climbing gets you closer to the Tron bike  ;) )

We used to share a bike on the trainer when we had the dumb trainer, and kept it with the wheel-on trainer. The gains I've had since having my own trainer are more to do with time and work than using a better-fitting bike.
Does it matter if you throw down more watts on the trainer? It's not going to be a less-effective training tool because it doesn't fit you well. If you're training for anything other than Zwift racing I wouldn't bother unless a) you want to or b) the shared bike becomes uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: morbihan on 16 July, 2020, 06:04:36 pm
Do you stand / sprint on the trainer?

(Also - top tip - do your workouts up the Alpe. All that climbing gets you closer to the Tron bike  ;) )

We used to share a bike on the trainer when we had the dumb trainer, and kept it with the wheel-on trainer. The gains I've had since having my own trainer are more to do with time and work than using a better-fitting bike.
Does it matter if you throw down more watts on the trainer? It's not going to be a less-effective training tool because it doesn't fit you well. If you're training for anything other than Zwift racing I wouldn't bother unless a) you want to or b) the shared bike becomes uncomfortable.

 Hi, I do stand when instructed to on the training programme we are doing. Its a bit awkward on the smaller frame but doable.
I guess the bottom line is we are doing the programme to improve our FTP and I that FTP number will hopefully go up regardless while on the same bike if we get fitter. I'd just like to know if that the small bike could be losing me some watts and my real world FTP could be higher.  Its probably just wishful thinking!
I guess the way to find out will be stick with the shared bike through the BMU programme over the next month, take the FTP at the end, then after a couple of days rest install the road bike on and do it again.  It means switching out cassettes etc and Im not too happy about my nice shiny firefly strapped on to the turbo.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 16 July, 2020, 06:19:46 pm
the fit makes a difference if it is very different (eg. road vs tt position), it will not matter much if the bike is a bit small or large.

get another trainer and train together on properly fitting bikes?


p.s. there might be a gap in the market for a "turbo-bike", a simple sturdy frameset with easily adjustable saddle and handlebar positions, similar to spin bikes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: morbihan on 16 July, 2020, 09:28:05 pm
the fit makes a difference if it is very different (eg. road vs tt position), it will not matter much if the bike is a bit small or large.

get another trainer and train together on properly fitting bikes?


p.s. there might be a gap in the market for a "turbo-bike", a simple sturdy frameset with easily adjustable saddle and handlebar positions, similar to spin bikes.

Yeah that what I suspected.  I'll stick with the set up as is. A quick swap out of seatpost/saddle and pedals is easy and off you go.
 There is a 5 inch height difference between us but with slamming my saddle right back and the post raised way up its not too bad. Ideally I'd have the saddle back further but can still tap out a rhythm with my arse hanging off the back.
I don't really want to goto that extra expense of two turbos TBH zigzag.
Plus we have the set up tucked away in a nice cozy corner. No room for two setups.
Absolutely on the turbo bike. It would be so much simpler.  Like one of those contraptions they use  when you go for a bike fit.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 16 July, 2020, 11:14:30 pm
Using the turbo outside I thought would be refreshing but I have been over heating even in the current tepid conditions with quite a lot of cardiac drift.   There is an outside plug socket for the mower so I could run my fan from there.  It seems a bit excessive, though.

Probably feels like doing a long, steep climb - working hard but with no air movement.

Definitely need the fan.  Properly cooked myself this morning. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 July, 2020, 11:15:32 pm
I was pretty cooked this evening with a fan.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 17 July, 2020, 09:34:20 am

There is a 5 inch height difference between us but with slamming my saddle right back and the post raised way up its not too bad. Ideally I'd have the saddle back further but can still tap out a rhythm with my arse hanging off the back.
5" height different is nothing! I shared the trainer bike with Mr Smith and he's 8 inches taller than me :)
I'd never have been able to ride it outside- I almost needed a stool to get on it :D

I have a 3 day stage race next weekend. If it doesn't get cooler I might have to use setting 3 on the Vacmaster (thanks for the tip, DuncanM)

Turbo bikes exist. Isn't that the gap these (https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers-guides/indoor-bikes/) fill?
For us, we ride together inside quite often. Who gets priority if you only have one bike/ trainer?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 17 July, 2020, 01:45:03 pm

Turbo bikes exist. Isn't that the gap these (https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers-guides/indoor-bikes/) fill?
For us, we ride together inside quite often. Who gets priority if you only have one bike/ trainer?

yes, these do exist, but they cost a fair bit especially if you already have a smart trainer and want to continue using it.

my idea was that a "turbo-bike" should be similar to regular bikes, hook up to any smart or dumb trainer (wheel on or direct drive), but have all the adjustability of spin bikes to cater wide range of people from short to tall, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 20 July, 2020, 10:14:46 pm
Power is position specific so you would get more benefit by training in the position in which you intend to race.

How much better is the question! It could be a reasonable amount or it could be close to zero. And if you don't intend to race, it's pretty academic.

I have to say I do try to replicate my racing bike position on a turbo as I don't like to think of any of my effort being wasted.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 08 September, 2020, 10:36:36 am
Training went to shit early August.  Every goal event for the year disappeared for a variety of reasons.

In terms of road miles I’m actually up on last year which was a record year for me.  I should hopefully complete an SR by the end of the month.

I’m currently scheduled to restart coaching early Nov, but I need to decide if I’m still a racing cyclist or not.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: giropaul on 08 September, 2020, 06:07:23 pm
Power is position specific so you would get more benefit by training in the position in which you intend to race.

How much better is the question! It could be a reasonable amount or it could be close to zero. And if you don't intend to race, it's pretty academic.

I have to say I do try to replicate my racing bike position on a turbo as I don't like to think of any of my effort being wasted.

My concern with a position different to your normal one would be injury. Some people are more sensitive than others, but knees are especially at risk from differences in saddle position, and also ( often overlooked) the width of stance of the pedals.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 08 September, 2020, 06:51:25 pm
Bit like Rob, training on hold August and just been out enjoying the riding. Attempting a late SR then I’ll kick start training again come November. Been doing a bit of high intensity on hills but no too much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 08 September, 2020, 09:34:46 pm
considering low motivation and not much training this year i'm in pretty good shape right now. the last ftp test (last week) suggested 290w, and i am aiming to run a sub-19min 5k soon.
if the weather is favourable i might squeeze in the sr series at the end of september.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: morbihan on 11 September, 2020, 12:09:05 pm
Yup Ive really lost the will to ride long after all our European adventures were cancelled. I haven't been able to face the merry go round of big rides on a small Island in 95% humidity.
Its been a few ramp tests and inside stuff on an ill fitting turbo this year.
Sooner or later Im going to have to suck it up and bash out a few 300's. Maybe tomorrow or the day after, of sometime after that...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 September, 2020, 04:21:03 pm
Currently hitting 3 year PBs on the trainer.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 September, 2020, 04:38:54 pm
Not been on the bike since May. Hip not changed, so dunno when I will. FTP was 233 in mid-May, wonder what it is now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 September, 2020, 05:11:59 pm
Not been on the bike since May. Hip not changed, so dunno when I will. FTP was 233 in mid-May, wonder what it is now.

That's a bummer. I tested 219W on 31 Mar, most recent test was 243W, I'm hoping to get above 250W at next test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 01 October, 2020, 04:32:45 pm
Right I’m starting next week with this winter training job , kept up a few long rides this year up to 400k but as the 24 was cancelled and I’ve been working right though I have been severely lacking in mojo.
I normally manage TrainerRoad sweet spot low volume base 1&2 then lose the will to hurt myself but last year I did not even completely manage that  :facepalm:
Anyway let’s see how I go on hopefully can keep it going 3 months .
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 03 October, 2020, 01:35:45 pm
Just refined my Kickr/TrainerRoad setup with the addition of a second Cleva blower piggy-backed to the first.  One either side at the front - one pointing at the face and another at the body.

Even better - because they have a physical power switch I can set them at the desired level in advance and then voice-activate them using a smart plug when things are heating up (generally about 10 minutes in depending on the intensity.)  Saves a chilly start to the session or having to get off & flick the switch.  ::-)  ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 03 October, 2020, 02:11:32 pm
Two rest days then 3 months of Base Training starts again. I'm going to be more disciplined with my S&C this winter.
[he says... ]
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 03 October, 2020, 04:09:41 pm
I was advised to avoid max effort until my heart investigations have been concluded. So I've deleted my training plan, replaced it with Traditional Base HV 1..3 and skipped the ramp test and declared my FTP to be 250W.

So far I've done week 1 (4x2h15) and half of week 2 (4x2h30). 2h30 today yet to be done, but I have hurt my back taking furniture to the tip, it may not cooperate.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 October, 2020, 05:43:04 pm
No structured work since July and the turbo is in the shed.  I have done lots of road miles and I’m approx 1,000 miles up on last year.  I’m also about a stone up on last year.  Much to do.

The earliest I’ll start back is 1st Nov.   I personally find it very hard to train without a target.  I think moving back to focus on TTs in the short term will help as they are more likely to happen.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 October, 2020, 06:50:40 am
Target vital for me too, and the more specific the better.  Am currently thinking towards the TCR next July. It may not happen but there should be some alternatives that I'd like to be in good shape for.

Plan is to get my SR wrapped up next weekend, then a bit of a break, and start doing something structured around the start of November. That's two months earlier than normal. I increasingly feel that I need to take training more seriously to counter the effects of ageing!

Probably more miles for me this year, certainly some more interesting miles as I've avoided my normal routes in the  Chilterns all year and used lockdown to explore other areas.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 October, 2020, 08:46:12 am
Similar to above, got an SR to try and complete. Then a break. Then sometime in November I’ll reintroduce my legs to the turbo then probably start the structure properly come December.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 04 October, 2020, 03:25:09 pm
Just refined my Kickr/TrainerRoad setup with the addition of a second Cleva blower piggy-backed to the first.  One either side at the front - one pointing at the face and another at the body.

Even better - because they have a physical power switch I can set them at the desired level in advance and then voice-activate them using a smart plug when things are heating up (generally about 10 minutes in depending on the intensity.)  Saves a chilly start to the session or having to get off & flick the switch.  ::-)  ;D

The new system is working really well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJvzSRjG/KSU.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZV7CqSc)

Got to thinking how it could be refined further.  Each Cleva could be on its own voice-activated smart switch to allow for variable intensity.  You could even add a third central one for hi-intensity wind-tunnel efforts (only to be used in emergencies  ;D).

A triple Cleva set-up individually switched like that would still cost less than a single Wahoo Headwind, be infinitely more controllable and be capable of shifting a much greater air volume.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 04 October, 2020, 05:16:57 pm
Wow - impressive fannage.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 04 October, 2020, 05:45:10 pm
Thanks go to DuncanM for putting me onto these blowers (plus sorting me out with the TrainerRoad trial month!).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 04 October, 2020, 05:48:52 pm
Thanks go to DuncanM for putting me onto these blowers (plus sorting me out with the TrainerRoad trial month!).

Fboab has one of those - and she seems quite pleased with it. I prefer to drip sweat all over my stuff because it makes it look like I'M WORKING HARDER. :D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 October, 2020, 06:02:02 pm
The sweat from the last workout I did made the heart monitoring thingy the hospital gave me on Tuesday fall off. I managed to reattach it later though.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 04 October, 2020, 06:03:19 pm
The sweat from the last workout I did made the heart monitoring thingy the hospital gave me on Tuesday fall off. I managed to reattach it later though.

It's a thing. I dripped sweat on my phone once, which had the Zwift companion app open, and it quit my ride for me.

#firstworldsweatissues
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 04 October, 2020, 06:17:56 pm
I must say that after 13 years of sweating puddles on the gym floor necessitating an immediate shower and change of all clothing, these blowers are a revelation. I stay more or less dry - just the occasional dab of the fevered brow with a towel.  Altogether more civilised.  I don't mind sweating all over the gym bike and floor but would rather keep mine dry  ;)

This is all good timing as the gym have closed off the showers as a covid measure.  There's no way I could cycle home in that state!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 October, 2020, 08:58:37 am
If you are sweating puddles on the turbo, you are restricting your ability to train. You can see it if you do FTP tests with and without a fan - you can generate more power with the fan. So if you do all your workouts with sufficient cooling, you can do more work and get more fitness benefit than without. N+1 for fans too (at least in the summer!) :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 05 October, 2020, 12:34:00 pm
If the sweat doesn't evaporate it's not cooling you down. I have 2 fans on all the time but still sweat a lot, not puddles but my shorts are soaked by the end usually. I also open the window to keep humidity below 100% otherwise sweat won't evaporate even with fans.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 October, 2020, 02:38:36 pm
Best to turn the heating on so that the sweat can evaporate more easily!   :demon:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 06 October, 2020, 09:58:07 am
I think I'm going to need to put the turbo by the patio doors.   There's other useful space but the rest of the house is carpeted and I'm trying quite hard not to lose my security deposit.

We've just put an offer in on a place that has a decent size room above the garage with a toilet and shower.   This has been bagged as the gym/turbo area.   I can't see us moving in until the New Year, though.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 October, 2020, 03:30:53 pm
I put my turbo on the patio. Means it’s weather dependent but there’s enough dry periods a week to get the sessions done.  It’s actually quite nice on the turbo when it’s a cold winter’s day.  Jacket on during warm up then down to just a shirt once into main session.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 07 October, 2020, 03:34:51 pm
I was alternating between the patio & indoors in the summer but it was a bit of a faff and just one more dis-incentive to getting on the bike  ;D  Setup stays indoors now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 08 October, 2020, 09:32:00 am
Just refined my Kickr/TrainerRoad setup with the addition of a second Cleva blower piggy-backed to the first.  One either side at the front - one pointing at the face and another at the body.

Even better - because they have a physical power switch I can set them at the desired level in advance and then voice-activate them using a smart plug when things are heating up (generally about 10 minutes in depending on the intensity.)  Saves a chilly start to the session or having to get off & flick the switch.  ::-)  ;D

The new system is working really well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJvzSRjG/KSU.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZV7CqSc)

Got to thinking how it could be refined further.  Each Cleva could be on its own voice-activated smart switch to allow for variable intensity.  You could even add a third central one for hi-intensity wind-tunnel efforts (only to be used in emergencies  ;D).

A triple Cleva set-up individually switched like that would still cost less than a single Wahoo Headwind, be infinitely more controllable and be capable of shifting a much greater air volume.

Better still, put them behind you and you'd go a lot faster.  Turn that power into pure speed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 19 October, 2020, 08:30:03 am
Two weeks done , last week was a bit of a struggle due to working late most evenings and Saturday so it ended up being Thursday/Friday evening and Saturday late afternoon as the training times  which was not ideal but got it done.
Rested up Sunday and went out on the motorbike which seemed a lot easier going up the hills  :-[
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 19 October, 2020, 08:36:31 am
My planned 200 on Saturday didn't happen as the bike had issues I couldn't fix in the dark.
So I joined some vTeammates in a workout. VO2max intervals.

My planned 200 on Sunday didn't happen.

Top Tip- Old women need more than 10 hours recovery before trying to ride up Big Steep Hills. However quickly they get the protein recovery drink in.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 20 October, 2020, 09:28:33 pm
I dusted down Trainerroad this afternoon, probably for the first time since August, and did a ramp test.

It went well.  I could tell when I was approaching my FTP level that I was stronger than in the recent past, and I managed to push it up by about 7%.  Still not massive numbers, but the highest it has been for five years, so a step in the right direction. 

Since my last test in August I have mainly done long, low intensity rides, like DIYs, and riding mostly just once per week, rather than short stuff every day as on a TR programme.  Interesting...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 31 October, 2020, 10:34:38 pm
I’m following TB HV. Last weekend of first block now. 2h45 today. Same tomorrow.

At least it’s recovery week coming up. Wait, what, that’s 4x2h?

Kill me now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 01 November, 2020, 07:49:34 am
For something different I've just done two weeks of VO2Max intervals.  There are various posts on the TR  forum which suggest this might be a good way to push up FTP before starting a block of training.

VO2 max intervals were not too bad.  Didn't take too long, and it was a good challenge to stay on top of them.  I slightly worry that I wasn't doing them properly because of limitations in my setup (low end smart trainer), but I did the best I could.  I didn't do much other riding so managed to put back on a bit of extra weight.

Ramp test tomorrow - I'll find out if it worked or not.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 01 November, 2020, 01:44:36 pm
I’m following TB HV. Last weekend of first block now. 2h45 today. Same tomorrow.

At least it’s recovery week coming up. Wait, what, that’s 4x2h?

Kill me now.

Do you do it outside or on turbo?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 01 November, 2020, 05:37:01 pm
I’m following TB HV. Last weekend of first block now. 2h45 today. Same tomorrow.

At least it’s recovery week coming up. Wait, what, that’s 4x2h?

Kill me now.

Do you do it outside or on turbo?

I've been mixing outdoors in where possible (i.e. tolerable weather). I did 3x 1h45 (Virginia) midweek, was supposed to be 2x2h45, but I decided I'd find it easier breaking it up a bit. I struggled a bit on Thursday. Yesterday was bad weather, and I watched the Wales v Scotland match and did the 2h45 - I found that easier, I expect from a combination of the rugby and not having worked all day beforehand. I couldn't face that again today, so did a 66km tile bagging ride today, and got wet. Bike is filthy now.

I don't know how I'll cope if the weather is very bad and I have a 3h z2 Wednesday evening ride scheduled, next month...

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 November, 2020, 12:33:36 pm
For something different I've just done two weeks of VO2Max intervals.  There are various posts on the TR  forum which suggest this might be a good way to push up FTP before starting a block of training.

VO2 max intervals were not too bad.  Didn't take too long, and it was a good challenge to stay on top of them.  I slightly worry that I wasn't doing them properly because of limitations in my setup (low end smart trainer), but I did the best I could.  I didn't do much other riding so managed to put back on a bit of extra weight.

Ramp test tomorrow - I'll find out if it worked or not.

Well, it didn't work.  I actually binned out on the FTP test as I could see that I was going to end up lower than I had done two weeks ago.  I might not have been much lower, but I couldn't make myself carry on under the circumstances.

What to do?

I was going to go back to SS base then build, but I'm not sure now.  Trad base has some appeal, but it's a bit grim in winter.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 04 November, 2020, 09:09:07 am
For something different I've just done two weeks of VO2Max intervals.  There are various posts on the TR  forum which suggest this might be a good way to push up FTP before starting a block of training.

VO2 max intervals were not too bad.  Didn't take too long, and it was a good challenge to stay on top of them.  I slightly worry that I wasn't doing them properly because of limitations in my setup (low end smart trainer), but I did the best I could.  I didn't do much other riding so managed to put back on a bit of extra weight.

Ramp test tomorrow - I'll find out if it worked or not.

Well, it didn't work.  I actually binned out on the FTP test as I could see that I was going to end up lower than I had done two weeks ago.  I might not have been much lower, but I couldn't make myself carry on under the circumstances.

What to do?

I was going to go back to SS base then build, but I'm not sure now.  Trad base has some appeal, but it's a bit grim in winter.

I find as I have gotten older (53) that I don’t have many ramp(ftp) test in me per year , I also find if I do one well my ftp is too high for training purposes and I end up struggling , this is on TrainerRoad.
This year I have not done a ramp test since February (260) but did on the free trial do the Sufferfest 4DP test this also said 260ftp .
I started TrainerRoad SS base and set my ftp to 255 it was plenty hard enough for the first few weeks and I am now on week 5 and for the last few weeks have been able to up the % power a little .
Ftp is only a estimate of what you can train at from my experience don’t get to worried I have done this in the past.
As a example I did the warlow workout on Sunday with the ftp set at 255 for the first interval then put it up 1% for each of the next 4 intervals it was doable but obviously hard and I nearly enjoyed it ::-) but 2 and a bit years ago I did the same workout with my ftp tested and set at 290 and I finished it and promptly binned the turbo for the winter as I could not face doing workouts at that level and let me tell you I’m not bad at suffering I’ve done a 24tt  ;D :facepalm:
Be careful what you wish for ftp wise especially in early winter.
If I were you (and I’m not so feel free to shoot me for sticking my head up) I would set your ftp slightly conservatively do the first few weeks then increase it on the % power a little you will get a feel for it that way .
I’m not going to test till after ss base two if even then this year I’m feeling the best at this stage I have for years so it’s working for me.
Just my thoughts interesting to here of others.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: akin on 04 November, 2020, 12:27:57 pm
I have just started doing some intervals and structured sessions for the first time. Currently on standard trainer I owned but not really used with added speed, cadence and HRM for predicted power. Found it a little frustrating getting resistance correct to match up to suggested cadence and the estimated power. The levels were also set off estimates and then a ramp test I found difficult to manage with the limitations I had. The worry is around working from the wrong FTP level and the impact it has on subsequent session difficulty. As has been mentioned I suppose it is only problematic if they are far too hard or far too easy. I am now considering getting a smart trainer with an ERG mode now Im clearer I want to proceed with this over winter.

I have used up a trial with Sufferfest. Decided I find some of the narrative and humour a little grating and am more interested in just the structure of sessions. Whilst the Yoga sessions were an advantage which nearly swayed me into subscribing I have now found an alternative I like elsewhere. As a result I think i'm going to try trainer roads next.

Im thinking about how it potentially fits into my wider riding. I don't have a power meter for when I am out on the bike, nor do I have a compatible garmin/cycle computer for downloading the workouts. That leaves me questions around;

- How easy does TR makes it for you to follow certain workouts outside without power?
- Could I for instance follow the basic's of the session using HR zones only during my outside rides? (I understand this introduces some limitations in measuring effort if you are being really strict)
- Would I just be better off using a TR training plan of lower number of weekly sessions indoors and using my outside rides for less structured riding?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 04 November, 2020, 12:44:18 pm
The TR podcast is worth listening to if you are going to use their program. Also, anyone who has a current TR account probably has referrals that can give you a free month (I'm afraid I can't because I have shut my account for the moment as I'm injured and haven't ridden since May).
In terms of outside rides, I think it depends what rides the plan requires. I don't have a compatible headunit (I've an old Lezyne) but I do have a power meter, so when I wanted to do a TR ride outside it was basically trying to copy the structure and apply it during the ride. I'd imagine with a compatible HU it would be a lot easier, and without power it would be tricky. If it's a set of print intervals or something you could probably do it, but unless you are very aware of your power and pacing, trying to do anything around threshold would be quite hard to get right (and you would never know because you can't measure it).
I would probably choose a low volume plan indoors and supplement it with fun outdoor rides anyway - I didn't find it fun trying to put structure onto outdoor rides.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 04 November, 2020, 01:38:23 pm
You can use RPE outside with TR workouts. But I avoid doing the structured stuff outside and just do volume z2 rides outdoors. It’s much easier to use HR for this kind of work than with intervals - a power meter is not such a big factor.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 November, 2020, 01:43:40 pm
^^^ this

Just do your longer lower intensity endurance work outside and the high intensity intervals on the turbo.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: JonB on 04 November, 2020, 02:06:23 pm
I've never tried to do the TR workouts outdoors (I'm new to TR so still learning). I've got a number of referral codes to get a free trial period, if you want one, PM me with your email details
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 November, 2020, 03:39:17 pm
For something different I've just done two weeks of VO2Max intervals.  There are various posts on the TR  forum which suggest this might be a good way to push up FTP before starting a block of training.

VO2 max intervals were not too bad.  Didn't take too long, and it was a good challenge to stay on top of them.  I slightly worry that I wasn't doing them properly because of limitations in my setup (low end smart trainer), but I did the best I could.  I didn't do much other riding so managed to put back on a bit of extra weight.

Ramp test tomorrow - I'll find out if it worked or not.

Well, it didn't work.  I actually binned out on the FTP test as I could see that I was going to end up lower than I had done two weeks ago.  I might not have been much lower, but I couldn't make myself carry on under the circumstances.

What to do?

I was going to go back to SS base then build, but I'm not sure now.  Trad base has some appeal, but it's a bit grim in winter.

I find as I have gotten older (53) that I don’t have many ramp(ftp) test in me per year , I also find if I do one well my ftp is too high for training purposes and I end up struggling , this is on TrainerRoad.
This year I have not done a ramp test since February (260) but did on the free trial do the Sufferfest 4DP test this also said 260ftp .
I started TrainerRoad SS base and set my ftp to 255 it was plenty hard enough for the first few weeks and I am now on week 5 and for the last few weeks have been able to up the % power a little .
Ftp is only a estimate of what you can train at from my experience don’t get to worried I have done this in the past.
As a example I did the warlow workout on Sunday with the ftp set at 255 for the first interval then put it up 1% for each of the next 4 intervals it was doable but obviously hard and I nearly enjoyed it ::-) but 2 and a bit years ago I did the same workout with my ftp tested and set at 290 and I finished it and promptly binned the turbo for the winter as I could not face doing workouts at that level and let me tell you I’m not bad at suffering I’ve done a 24tt  ;D :facepalm:
Be careful what you wish for ftp wise especially in early winter.
If I were you (and I’m not so feel free to shoot me for sticking my head up) I would set your ftp slightly conservatively do the first few weeks then increase it on the % power a little you will get a feel for it that way .
I’m not going to test till after ss base two if even then this year I’m feeling the best at this stage I have for years so it’s working for me.
Just my thoughts interesting to here of others.

I'm 53 too.

My context is that my power was a fair bit higher 4-5 years ago, then having a baby and some other things led to lifestyle changes, and I've never got back to anywhere near where I was.  I'm aiming to push it higher than before - back then I didn't train but just rode my bike - as I have a couple of TT goals which depend on it. 

I have some frustration from seeing others in middle age start doing systematic training and getting benefit from it while I've not found anything that works better for me than just riding lots - which I don't have time to do nowadays. 

So, with this, I tried a few things differently and thought I was making progress, but then tried something else and found out that I was not. 

That's disappointing but means I need to make some more changes to find what works for me.  Clearly doing VO2 Max and nothing else for a couple of weeks doesn't.  It's good to know that so I don't need to do it again!

I've stuck to TR reasonably well over the last couple of years and not had stellar results.  Maybe trad base would be worth a shot.... 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 November, 2020, 03:48:52 pm
Just had a look at trad base.  It's basically commuting.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 04 November, 2020, 05:22:21 pm
commuting* is good for base miles, i used to have 7.5-8hrs of z1-2 "training" while commuting each week. add a couple of higher intensity rides/workouts and it's a good recipe to stay fit.

this video talks about base training, done "the right way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8)

* one of the best things about it is consistency
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 04 November, 2020, 05:46:57 pm
I could not do the trad base unless I was not working and even then I think I wouldn’t do it because I would just go out riding my bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 November, 2020, 05:52:57 pm
commuting* is good for base miles, i used to have 7.5-8hrs of z1-2 "training" while commuting each week. add a couple of higher intensity rides/workouts and it's a good recipe to stay fit.

this video talks about base training, done "the right way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8)

* one of the best things about it is consistency

Yes, me too. But I think I'll struggle to do it now I'm not commuting.

So I've just started SS base. Let's see how it goes. Will add some longer rides as and when.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 November, 2020, 05:53:54 pm
I could not do the trad base unless I was not working and even then I think I wouldn’t do it because I would just go out riding my bike.

Yes, agree with that too.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 November, 2020, 07:44:03 pm
commuting* is good for base miles, i used to have 7.5-8hrs of z1-2 "training" while commuting each week. add a couple of higher intensity rides/workouts and it's a good recipe to stay fit.

this video talks about base training, done "the right way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8)

* one of the best things about it is consistency

Agreed.  I used to have 10hrs per week of commuting with a couple of turbo sessions and then a long road ride once a week.  I now live further from work so it’s 2h30 each way.  At the moment I’m doing this on a Tuesday and a Thursday and turboing Mon/Wed/Fri.  I’ll still do a long ride on Saturday.   It should give me roughly the same weekly hours but it’s a bit lumpy.   It’s only week 1 so I’ll review after a few weeks.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 November, 2020, 08:18:25 pm
That's a good commute if you are doing it regularly!

Which way do you go: hrough the lanes and then epping forest? That's a regular one for me, riding to my sister's place near Chelmsford, and I often lengthen it a bit by going round by Dunmow /Finchingfield / Felsted.

I really enjoy the lanes but had a fall a couple of years ago, bike just disappeared from under me for no apparent reason when at speed. Turned out it was a farmer who had spilled some grain on the road and it was just like ball bearings!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 November, 2020, 08:28:45 pm
That's a good commute if you are doing it regularly!

Which way do you go: hrough the lanes and then epping forest? That's a regular one for me, riding to my sister's place near Chelmsford, and I often lengthen it a bit by going round by Dunmow /Finchingfield / Felsted.

I really enjoy the lanes but had a fall a couple of years ago, bike just disappeared from under me for no apparent reason when at speed. Turned out it was a farmer who had spilled some grain on the road and it was just like ball bearings!

I live in Felsted now (you’re welcome to drop in for coffee, eventually).  I go High Easter/Leaden Roding/Fyfield/Ongar/under M25/Lambourne End and then Chigwell Row.  I pick up the cycle paths in Stratford and straight into the City (I’m now based near Liverpool St).  I think the laney bit might be sketchy in Winter so I need to do a bit of research.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 07 November, 2020, 03:52:24 pm
The other difference this year is that I’m giving myself one complete day off each week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 07 November, 2020, 08:38:03 pm
I think I might flip to Trad Base.  Would be good to get out of the house during the week and ride around a bit, especially if it will be slightly less busy than usual over the next month. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 08 November, 2020, 03:17:05 pm
Week 5 of sweet spot base finished today probably going to take a few weeks off before moving on to base 2 but it’s keeping occupied on the dark mid week nights and I’m still getting out with er in doors once over the weekend as well .
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 November, 2020, 11:52:44 pm
I'm starting TB HV II on Tuesday. Restarted I as I had a break due to hurting my back and decided I needed to reset. No ramp test on Tuesday as I'm still working through all the cardiology tests they can think of.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 09 November, 2020, 09:28:50 am
Trad base going well so far. Beautiful morning in Richmond Park with mist, deer antlers sticking through it, a beautiful sunrise and no cars let in while I was there.

Question @simonp or anyone, for trad base do you try to follow their power targets, or just ride at a normal steady pace?

I'm doing the latter, not as fast as say the first 100km of an audax, and at a level I could repeat every day, but a bit higher power than TR suggests. Am I doing it wrong?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 November, 2020, 09:50:53 am
I try to stay vaguely in the right zone. I don’t try to follow the power target closely. Picking a flat route is a good idea for this. I had a couple of proper climbs yesterday and went well above target. I’d have probably fallen over riding at 160 Watts. I can ride the same roads over and over but it starts to get repetitive.  I’ve been told in the past that going above threshold on climbs can cause you to stay out of fat burning for some time afterwards so you lose some of the adaptations you would otherwise have got.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bobby on 09 November, 2020, 03:37:03 pm
I bailed on TrainerRoad (realiesd that I only ever stuck with it for short bursts, then got bored so my form just yo-yo'd).  Instead I've moved to Rouvy as an internal VR platform for riding routes around the world they don't have a training calendar or plan builder - but I do like the rides, their challenges, and overall career structure that enforces a reasonable volume for several months.

After prolonged irregular or inactivity, Dads funeral, and what would have been his birthday in mid-Aug I decided to put in some effort to get back into regular riding.  Almost exclusively indoors on a Wahoo Kickr + Rouvy. Using https://intervals.icu/ (https://intervals.icu/) I've seem my 'Fitness' (I guess CTL) climb steadily from 37 to 72 in only 10 weeks.  The ramp has leveled off now, I guess it'll settle between 75 & 85 until I start doing long outdoor rides & audax's again.  Using Strava's Fitness thing, it's gone form 27 to 89 - however you count it, it's a nice steady progression.

My plan is to keep that going until the new year, then plan how to either ramp up or focus on training for a specific event.  I'd been targeting RATN in May, given Covid I'm far from convince I'll be able to make it though, so perhaps something later in the year & closer to home will make more sense...

I really CBA to do FTP tests at the moment, but I can see great improvements in my PR times, and 'power to HR' (eg at 155BPM, I could only hold 213W in Aug, but by the end of Oct I can hold 242W)  There are similar improvements at all levels, and for best power intervals ranging from 10s up to 2h, all up in the order of 10-20%.  I know it'll get harder from here on, but am feeling good about it so far  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 10 November, 2020, 03:59:42 pm
I try to stay vaguely in the right zone. I don’t try to follow the power target closely. Picking a flat route is a good idea for this. I had a couple of proper climbs yesterday and went well above target. I’d have probably fallen over riding at 160 Watts. I can ride the same roads over and over but it starts to get repetitive.  I’ve been told in the past that going above threshold on climbs can cause you to stay out of fat burning for some time afterwards so you lose some of the adaptations you would otherwise have got.

I'm finding it does depend on the roads.  Today I had to go into town for something so it was a bit stop and start.  My average power was where it should be but there were more zeros and higher powered intervals.  It was maybe more like sweet spot intervals than Z2. 

Yesterday was Richmond Park where I can pedal most of the time, so my average power was a bit higher than it should be, but I would have spent less time at high power than today

Overall I'm enjoying Trad Base, but I do worry that it isn't doing much for me.  For an audax rider, it's not that hard to ride for two hours per day in zone 2 so it can't be stressing my system very much.  I feel I should be pushing harder to make it a challenge, and I could push quite a bit harder without affecting my ability to do the same the next day.  But I'll stick with it and see what happens. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 10 November, 2020, 04:27:31 pm
Week 5 of sweet spot base finished today probably going to take a few weeks off before moving on to base 2 but it’s keeping occupied on the dark mid week nights and I’m still getting out with er in doors once over the weekend as well .

Don’t take too long off or any fitness gains will just ebb away before you restart.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 10 November, 2020, 04:42:13 pm
I try to stay vaguely in the right zone. I don’t try to follow the power target closely. Picking a flat route is a good idea for this. I had a couple of proper climbs yesterday and went well above target. I’d have probably fallen over riding at 160 Watts. I can ride the same roads over and over but it starts to get repetitive.  I’ve been told in the past that going above threshold on climbs can cause you to stay out of fat burning for some time afterwards so you lose some of the adaptations you would otherwise have got.

I'm finding it does depend on the roads.  Today I had to go into town for something so it was a bit stop and start.  My average power was where it should be but there were more zeros and higher powered intervals.  It was maybe more like sweet spot intervals than Z2. 

Yesterday was Richmond Park where I can pedal most of the time, so my average power was a bit higher than it should be, but I would have spent less time at high power than today

Overall I'm enjoying Trad Base, but I do worry that it isn't doing much for me.  For an audax rider, it's not that hard to ride for two hours per day in zone 2 so it can't be stressing my system very much.  I feel I should be pushing harder to make it a challenge, and I could push quite a bit harder without affecting my ability to do the same the next day.  But I'll stick with it and see what happens.

Last year, I didn't do a lot of cycling base over winter, because of the rowing, so I spent the summer doing long steady miles as that seemed specific to PBP (plus the qualifiers of course). I had a fitness test in the summer that suggested I did have a very good aerobic base, so I could run on fat at higher power than in previous years, but my lactate threshold* wasn't particularly high. So I think the long steady miles did do something - but they don't do everything. Traditional Base II brings in threshold work, and tempo work, as well as short neuromuscular sprints. III brings in sweet spot as well. There's no VO2max work.

* Actually, there are two lactate thresholds. When people talk about Lactate Threshold they are talking about LT2. LT1 is when lactic acid production starts to rise as intensity rises, and this point is what is mainly being shifted by traditional base training. I would not be surprised if my LT2 dropped during the first phase of Traditional base as the first phase has no intensity whatsoever.



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 10 November, 2020, 06:19:21 pm
there is also increasing discussion of AeT the aerobic threshold and training at just below that.  I quite like Phil Maffetones ideas (even if you don't like his equation) and his views on how a very well adapted person will be pushing their aerobic threshold much closer to the LT than the average.

There is a very interesting book called the uphill athlete by Kilian Jornet and a couple of other people which goes into this in great detail.  Well worth a read.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 10 November, 2020, 07:12:13 pm
Polarized is about majority of training below LT1 and some above LT2 with nothing between LT1 and LT2.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 10 November, 2020, 07:25:52 pm
Polarized is about majority of training below LT1 and some above LT2 with nothing between LT1 and LT2.

It is this ratio which seems to get people confused and how much you "need" the higher intensity.  There are a couple of interesting real world type studies looking at training data on thousands of individuals both elite and amateur now showing that the more base miles you run at zone 1-2 HR the faster you are in the race irrespective of anything else,
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 11 November, 2020, 09:50:51 am
Polarized is about majority of training below LT1 and some above LT2 with nothing between LT1 and LT2.

It is this ratio which seems to get people confused and how much you "need" the higher intensity.  There are a couple of interesting real world type studies looking at training data on thousands of individuals both elite and amateur now showing that the more base miles you run at zone 1-2 HR the faster you are in the race irrespective of anything else,
Does that apply to short races that are high intensity almost all the time (eg CX)?
I'm assuming that polarised and Z1-2 training is basically for people with the time to do a lot of miles at zone 1-2? I don't see how it can give enough stimulus if you are restricted to a few hours a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 11 November, 2020, 11:32:06 am
Polarized is about majority of training below LT1 and some above LT2 with nothing between LT1 and LT2.

It is this ratio which seems to get people confused and how much you "need" the higher intensity.  There are a couple of interesting real world type studies looking at training data on thousands of individuals both elite and amateur now showing that the more base miles you run at zone 1-2 HR the faster you are in the race irrespective of anything else,
Does that apply to short races that are high intensity almost all the time (eg CX)?
I'm assuming that polarised and Z1-2 training is basically for people with the time to do a lot of miles at zone 1-2? I don't see how it can give enough stimulus if you are restricted to a few hours a week.

So there are a few things I was mulling over about polarized training recently:

1. It's pushed a lot in rowing. The standard distance is 2,000m. A top level athlete is looking at under 6 minutes. Which happens to be specific to Z3 under the Seiler polarized training model, but it's not specific to most cycling events, which are longer duration.

2. Traditional base type training as exemplified in the TR plans is not polarized training, it's pyramidal. This approach has been seen in some studies to give better results for cyclists than polarized.

3. The sweet spot base approach is pretty much the inverse of the polarized. A lot of the work is done in the areas specifically avoided by polarized training.

4. Matt Fitzgerald has written about the time vs intensity trade-off and he argues that even at 4h a week, polarized wins.

I went to an interesting talk about rowing training recently where polarized was advocated (guy giving the talk was Tony Larkman). He recently won the British Virtual Indoor Rowing Championships in the 50-54 age group, with a 6.19 time. That's faster than anyone I know of in our club, best in my 4+ we were winning regattas in is 6:34, and he was under 30.

Having said those things, my best overall fitness results have come from following TR sweet-spot based plans in 2016. I got less fit, I think, during the times when I was doing the most rowing, because I had less structure, and less time available (due to the travelling involved in going to a rowing club - particularly the insistence from the coach on doing land training at the club). I also had a break in training due to injury and illness late 2017-early 2018. During the 2018 regattas season, I struggled to do much time on the bike because I was always so tired. We did win at 4 regional regattas so it was probably worth it.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Chris S on 11 November, 2020, 12:09:43 pm
There's a fundamental problem I have with training that contains a lot of Z1/Z2 work, like Maffetone or some Polarized programs I've seen on Training Peaks, and that is - the volumes required to make it work are huge, and I just don't want to ride at that pace, for that long.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 11 November, 2020, 04:31:58 pm
I wouldn’t say 10 hours a week for polarized was huge.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 11 November, 2020, 04:49:50 pm
Yebbut if you're doing it at zone 1 it feels like 30.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 11 November, 2020, 07:55:37 pm
I’m doing all my road miles each week on 79” fixed.  It’s pretty much impossible to stay in zone 1.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 November, 2020, 08:00:07 pm
I’m doing all my road miles each week on 79” fixed.  It’s pretty much impose to stay in zone 1.

Given I can't stay in zone 2 on 10-speed, I'd agree with that.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 November, 2020, 08:02:48 pm
So I'm struggling to stay in zone 2 power, but my heart rate is staying low, mostly zone 1 or 2,and only very really dipping into zone 3.

Where power and heart rate zones conflict, what does it mean?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 11 November, 2020, 08:12:56 pm
Yebbut if you're doing it at zone 1 it feels like 30.

Yeah but low intensity for polarized includes Z2 if you are referring to the five zone HR scale. You don’t have to stick to Z1.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 12 November, 2020, 01:01:08 am
So I'm struggling to stay in zone 2 power, but my heart rate is staying low, mostly zone 1 or 2,and only very really dipping into zone 3.

Where power and heart rate zones conflict, what does it mean?

Do you know your maximum HR from a test or are you using 220-age? It could be your MHR is lower than the formula. In my case it’s the other way around and my LTHR was suggested by my Garmin to be 174. 220-age for me is 172 so that would suggest a far lower LTHR.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 12 November, 2020, 06:44:25 am
I got to 171 on a ramp test in August.  That's slightly higher than 220-age for me too (167). 


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 12 November, 2020, 08:23:30 am
Week 5 of sweet spot base finished today probably going to take a few weeks off before moving on to base 2 but it’s keeping occupied on the dark mid week nights and I’m still getting out with er in doors once over the weekend as well .

Don’t take too long off or any fitness gains will just ebb away before you restart.

I’m on week 6 (recovery week) but better get back on it next week then  :thumbsup:
Will start sweet spot base low volume 2 after that’s finished around Xmas I’m interested in doing some polarized stuff I’m not sure how this will be possible while riding the many ramps of the Peak District though unless I smash it up every steep hill  ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 12 November, 2020, 10:03:10 am
The key tenet of polarised training though is that a session is either high or low, so if a ride has hard hill efforts in it's a Seiler Z3 ride irrespective of the 4h Z1 work. The concept is only one ride in 5 should have the hard efforts in.

I tend to follow a more pyramid winter programme, so last month was 48h Z1, 14h Z2 (tempo), and only 1h Z3. Yesterday's 6h ride only had 2s of Z3, probably at the crest of a hill as my riding partner was a little too exuberant early on and I didn't want to lose sight of her as I was navigating!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 November, 2020, 02:09:43 pm
So I'm struggling to stay in zone 2 power, but my heart rate is staying low, mostly zone 1 or 2,and only very really dipping into zone 3.

Where power and heart rate zones conflict, what does it mean?

This may not be of interest for anyone else but I had another thought when I was out this morning.  A few years ago I got a Powertap PowerCal, which is a heart rate meter that estimates power based on changes in heart rate.  DC Rainmaker and others said that it gave quite good estimations over long periods.  Given I mainly wanted it for pacing audaxes rather than doing short intervals, it seemed like a good option and, for the most part, it is.

Most people report it being fairly well calibrated but, when I use mine, it gives power figures that are about 25%, or 30W, lower than other power meters do.  Putting that together with my heart rate and power zones not aligning suggests that I've got an odd heart rate profile.  Perhaps if I used the PowerCal again, it would have the zones lining up. 

Anyone else found this, ie HR and power zones a long way out of alignment?  I'll do some more research and report if I find anything. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 14 November, 2020, 08:20:50 pm
So this was what was in store for me today:

(https://i.imgur.com/TQR5Xw9.png)

I've not averaged that many Watts for 2h30 for more than 5 years. Feeling pretty jaded now.

Tomorrow's due to be 3h z2. Fortunately the forecast has cleared a bit and there's a window in the morning where it looks like it will be dry. 75km route planned.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 16 November, 2020, 02:03:34 pm
I found some steep hills. Not so z2.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 24 November, 2020, 11:20:53 pm
So, 7 weeks into TB HV, after restarting due to a bad back, I think it's giving good results. My heart rate is significantly lower in comparable workouts; sweet spot feels really easy; I've set Strava PRs on a few climbs on Sunday.

I've not yet had the all clear for maximal effort from the cardiologist. So unless that changes, it's no ramp test. Currently FTP is set at 240W. 264W still caused some muscle burn (but it was low cadence work, so maybe exaggerating the issue). I didn't notice anything at 252W on the same drill. So FTP is probably up a fair bit, and I can probably add 5-10W at the end of this cycle before the final 4-week block of the TB plan without being over-optimistic.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 25 November, 2020, 08:57:43 am
That sounds really impressive. How much have you built up to high volume over the years - were you on medium or high (when including rowing) last year?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 November, 2020, 10:11:57 am
Well done!

I'm now in week 4 (ie the rest week) of TB HV, so I'm about to finish my first block.  I've enjoyed it, but the mild weather has helped.  I've been feeling good but am looking forward to the ramp test on Monday for an objective assessment of where I am.

The forecast is for it to get a bit colder next week and, as I've been going out around 6am, I'm not sure that the next block would be as much fun.  I was toying with the idea of flipping to Build for the run in to Christmas.  I don't need to decide until Tuesday morning!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 November, 2020, 11:13:37 am
That sounds really impressive. How much have you built up to high volume over the years - were you on medium or high (when including rowing) last year?

I was doing medium volume TR plans, and the rowing, last year. I got my FTP to 248W last year but I was suffering a bit from burn-out. I did lots of volume after stepping back from rowing but it was too late to fit in a build/speciality cycle so I had no top-end.

This year I was doing SS-based MV plans up until September, when the palpitations started. I was making progress, but it was taxing.

I have 2h30 z2 to do this evening... what fun!


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 25 November, 2020, 11:47:21 am
That sounds really impressive. How much have you built up to high volume over the years - were you on medium or high (when including rowing) last year?

I was doing medium volume TR plans, and the rowing, last year. I got my FTP to 248W last year but I was suffering a bit from burn-out. I did lots of volume after stepping back from rowing but it was too late to fit in a build/speciality cycle so I had no top-end.

This year I was doing SS-based MV plans up until September, when the palpitations started. I was making progress, but it was taxing.

I have 2h30 z2 to do this evening... what fun!

Watch a film or tv series if you can.  The longest Z2 I did first lockdown was about that length. So I just watched a film which made the time pass quickly enough.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 25 November, 2020, 11:54:20 am
That sounds really impressive. How much have you built up to high volume over the years - were you on medium or high (when including rowing) last year?

I was doing medium volume TR plans, and the rowing, last year. I got my FTP to 248W last year but I was suffering a bit from burn-out. I did lots of volume after stepping back from rowing but it was too late to fit in a build/speciality cycle so I had no top-end.

This year I was doing SS-based MV plans up until September, when the palpitations started. I was making progress, but it was taxing.

I have 2h30 z2 to do this evening... what fun!

Watch a film or tv series if you can.  The longest Z2 I did first lockdown was about that length. So I just watched a film which made the time pass quickly enough.

IMDB Top 250 sorted by duration.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Aleksdad1 on 25 November, 2020, 06:42:16 pm
After many years of excercising rather than training I have signed up for Training Peaks to see what I can do with Proper Training. I am 75yrs old, my FTP is 185, my VO2 Max is 47 Cycling, 48 Running and my max HR is 150. I have been using my Atom very regularly since Lockdown and doing a selection of the sessions almost every day with very few rest days, Endurance, Speed and HIIT. I have been doing around 100 mls per week all indoors. I intend riding Tandem in the Mersey 24 this year, DV and some other TTs up to 25mls as well as some running races. When should I expect to see some improvement.
I did race in my late twenties with some success in Scotland but other addictions kept getting in the way of a successful athletic career. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 25 November, 2020, 07:54:32 pm
After many years of excercising rather than training I have signed up for Training Peaks to see what I can do with Proper Training. I am 75yrs old, my FTP is 185, my VO2 Max is 47 Cycling, 48 Running and my max HR is 150. I have been using my Atom very regularly since Lockdown and doing a selection of the sessions almost every day with very few rest days, Endurance, Speed and HIIT. I have been doing around 100 mls per week all indoors. I intend riding Tandem in the Mersey 24 this year, DV and some other TTs up to 25mls as well as some running races. When should I expect to see some improvement.
I did race in my late twenties with some success in Scotland but other addictions kept getting in the way of a successful athletic career.

Were you not Scottish BAR at one point ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 November, 2020, 03:55:25 pm
I'm just coming to the end of week 4 of the pattern I described upthread.   Turbo work as prescribed by my coach and 3 road rides largely done on feel.   The long commutes on Tue and Thu take it out of me a bit but I can see improvement already.   I'll do a DIY 200k on Saturday for fun and then into another 4 week block in the run up to Christmas.

I can't really see any proper goals until May/June earliest which is fine, but it makes it a little difficult to drag myself out of bed for the early starts.   I wore my PBP jersey on the ride this morning in an effort to remind myself when I last felt really good on a bike.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Aleksdad1 on 26 November, 2020, 06:29:37 pm
I was indeed Rob. 1971 at age 27. My first year racing after a 7 year break.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Aleksdad1 on 26 November, 2020, 06:40:57 pm
My first day after signing up but I have not done a plan workout today.Must be not having inputted all my details somewhere. Will get there eventually. Just did the 15/45 x12 interval session on one of our Atoms followed by the Push pyramid session just below FTP with 1x15 mins with 2x10 mins and 2x 5mins all just below FTP. Will try again tomorrow or get my son to sort things for me.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 26 November, 2020, 08:37:17 pm
Just done 2h30 z2/3 workout. FML.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 27 November, 2020, 08:17:45 am
Yeah, I've done all the long ones outside. I thought of trying one in turbo to see what it was like, but haven't actually done it...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 November, 2020, 08:39:47 am
Saturday is 3h of same. Sunday is 3h30 z2. Sunday would definitely be outside.

The constant resistance the trainer provides probably improves the quality of the training. But there’s only so much I can take.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 27 November, 2020, 08:58:37 am
The TR forum organises a Disaster workout ever so often - that's 4 hours long! (I guess it has loads of everything, which makes it less boring)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 November, 2020, 09:01:16 am
The TR forum organises a Disaster workout ever so often - that's 4 hours long! (I guess it has loads of everything, which makes it less boring)

I did it last year. It was easier in some ways to get through. It doesn’t fit with my training schedule this year so I can sit it out.  :hand:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 27 November, 2020, 09:28:40 am
Saturday is 3h of same. Sunday is 3h30 z2. Sunday would definitely be outside.

The constant resistance the trainer provides probably improves the quality of the training. But there’s only so much I can take.

Do you just sit in the same zone for 3hrs ?   Must be tedious.

The closest I got was working with broken hand at the end of 2018, but that was a max of 90 mins on alternate days.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 November, 2020, 09:34:47 am
Saturday is 3h of same. Sunday is 3h30 z2. Sunday would definitely be outside.

The constant resistance the trainer provides probably improves the quality of the training. But there’s only so much I can take.

Do you just sit in the same zone for 3hrs ?   Must be tedious.

The closest I got was working with broken hand at the end of 2018, but that was a max of 90 mins on alternate days.

Last night was intervals between 70%-80% FTP with small 1-3 minute breaks. They added some short 10s force sprints in the middle which broke it up. Saturday’s 3h would be same but the breaks are a bit longer and no sprints.

When it’s a z2 only workout there is still some variation. It’s typically 60% or 70% FTP. There are drills you can do which might help break it up a bit. I ignore those and watch a film or sports.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 29 November, 2020, 08:41:45 pm
Yesterday’s workout would have been hard work. Ran out of time and energy so missed it. Made up for it today by riding for 5h40 ish outdoors instead of the 3h30 plan. So I got most of the TSS for the week. I also PR’d two climbs that I PR’d last Sunday and did my best 1m power for 2020.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 01 December, 2020, 06:31:45 am
I've got busy at work, so not ridden since last Thursday.  Did 6 hours of work on Sunday morning instead of riding :( 

Will probably take a double light week, snatching a couple of short rides this week and try to pick up next week, when things might be a bit easier.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 01 December, 2020, 03:42:40 pm
Made it to week 5 before failing a session.   Warm up OK but failed to lift properly going into the first rep and just though 'Sod it'.   Not completely there yet to be honest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 December, 2020, 02:59:11 pm
I've got busy at work, so not ridden since last Thursday.  Did 6 hours of work on Sunday morning instead of riding :( 

Will probably take a double light week, snatching a couple of short rides this week and try to pick up next week, when things might be a bit easier.

Bad news. The good news is base fitness isn't quickly lost and maintaining it through a period where you don't train as much (as long as it's not toooo extended) doesn't require much volume.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 December, 2020, 03:05:22 pm
This is recovery week but the first workout was 1h with a bit more intensity - I decided to do a more familiar workout, Monitor, which is 6x6m:2r rolling sweet-spot.

For this workout, in August last year, with the same power, my average HR was 151.

Last night, it was 138.

This puts me in early December as some way fitter than at last PBP, with 8 months more training time before my goal event.

Ramp test next week, better be >250W FTP or I'll be sad.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 02 December, 2020, 03:16:44 pm
Peaking for July.   What could that be ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 02 December, 2020, 04:19:34 pm
I've got busy at work, so not ridden since last Thursday.  Did 6 hours of work on Sunday morning instead of riding :( 

Will probably take a double light week, snatching a couple of short rides this week and try to pick up next week, when things might be a bit easier.

Bad news. The good news is base fitness isn't quickly lost and maintaining it through a period where you don't train as much (as long as it's not toooo extended) doesn't require much volume.

Managed to get out for a couple of hours this lunchtime.  Feel better for some sunlight and fresh air!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 December, 2020, 04:55:48 pm
Not back on turbo yet still get outdoors. But sure the turbo will be back in service soon as the temps drop.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 December, 2020, 05:10:10 pm
Peaking for July.   What could that be ?

Not the TCR!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 December, 2020, 05:55:10 pm
From the end of the TB plan in early January it's 26 weeks to event. That is just enough time for the full base/build speciality cycle.

Now, I'll have done a lot of base already. So what I might do is break that up a bit - do a build 4-week block in January, then 8 weeks of base, rather than repeating all 12, then back to build.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 02 December, 2020, 06:29:39 pm
it's about time to start training again (virtually no riding during november and feeling w e a k..). this time around i'd be interested to do some experimentation with polarised training. 2-3 longish rides outside (12-15hrs total) and 60-90 minutes of vo2max intervals per week. to do this for three winter months and see where that takes me fitness-wise.
to reduce my excuses as much as possible, i've got four bikes (fully serviced) to choose from for riding outside, turbo trainer set up and updated, kit sorted out, indoor workouts marked as favourites to find them easily. we'll see how those three months pan out, but by sharing this here i hope it will support my commitment.

well done everyone so far, great gains by simonp, way to go!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 02 December, 2020, 07:30:55 pm
Peaking for July.   What could that be ?

Not the TCR!

Think I need to peak Jun/Jul.  Not only do you have to pick events now, you also have to build in the probability of them actually happening.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 02 December, 2020, 11:06:07 pm
Peaking for July.   What could that be ?

Not the TCR!

Think I need to peak Jun/Jul.  Not only do you have to pick events now, you also have to build in the probability of them actually happening.

Every change of the LeJoG Audax not happening. But if I got to say 275W FTP by the target date, I'd then be wondering where I could be in 2022.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 03 December, 2020, 09:26:48 am
Peaking for July.   What could that be ?

Not the TCR!

Think I need to peak Jun/Jul.  Not only do you have to pick events now, you also have to build in the probability of them actually happening.

Every change of the LeJoG Audax not happening. But if I got to say 275W FTP by the target date, I'd then be wondering where I could be in 2022.

Yebbut none of us are getting any younger.  At 48 next year I think it'll be my last crack at racing, although I have thoughts of a year off and then racing again in the 50-54 category.  Whilst I have had some level of success at what I've been doing for the last few years it's fair to say that I don't enjoy the training.

As far as next year goes I'll look at longer TTs again.   If this year is anything to go by there is more chance of them happening.   I'll keep at Audax and am targeting a couple of more low key events.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Karla on 03 December, 2020, 10:07:51 am
Your last year of racing?  You say that every year  :demon:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 December, 2020, 05:23:27 pm

Yebbut none of us are getting any younger.  At 48 next year I think it'll be my last crack at racing, although I have thoughts of a year off and then racing again in the 50-54 category.  Whilst I have had some level of success at what I've been doing for the last few years it's fair to say that I don't enjoy the training.

As far as next year goes I'll look at longer TTs again.   If this year is anything to go by there is more chance of them happening.   I'll keep at Audax and am targeting a couple of more low key events.

The problem with not racing, as I have found, is that losing those threshold workouts really does impact your fitness.  I've hardly raced since 2015 (when I was 48) and I've never been able to get back to the same level.  Of course you can replace it by a structured training programme but I've found it has never quite had the same effect.

I never minded the training when I was racing, as I didn't do any!  I do sometimes wish I had, and started 10 years earlier - but too late  to worry about that now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 December, 2020, 08:58:47 am

Yebbut none of us are getting any younger.  At 48 next year I think it'll be my last crack at racing, although I have thoughts of a year off and then racing again in the 50-54 category.  Whilst I have had some level of success at what I've been doing for the last few years it's fair to say that I don't enjoy the training.

As far as next year goes I'll look at longer TTs again.   If this year is anything to go by there is more chance of them happening.   I'll keep at Audax and am targeting a couple of more low key events.

The problem with not racing, as I have found, is that losing those threshold workouts really does impact your fitness.  I've hardly raced since 2015 (when I was 48) and I've never been able to get back to the same level.  Of course you can replace it by a structured training programme but I've found it has never quite had the same effect.

I never minded the training when I was racing, as I didn't do any!  I do sometimes wish I had, and started 10 years earlier - but too late  to worry about that now.

I get a sense that I probably didn't make the best of my late 20s and 30s, but I suspect that it would have been too hard to get the structure I needed back then.   If I don't manage to get any better then it's still no bad thing.   There are plenty of facets to this sport that can keep the challenges going.   I'll still only be 50 when I attempt my 7th Paris-Brest.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 08 December, 2020, 09:07:31 am
I am done with the TR ramp test!

I've done quite a few by now, maybe 10-12 in total, and I've learned at least three ways to cheat on it.  Some of it is down to my turbo and some would probably work on any turbo (I won't say what they are as I don't want to spoil it for others!).
 
Furthermore, I just don't think it works for me as a test.  As an experienced time triallist used to pacing rides, with a pretty good idea where my FTP is, and being relatively untrained in VO2 max, the 20 minute test is far better suited. 

Because I believe both these things, I can't really use it any more as I don't have faith in it. 

I tried to do it yesterday.  Everything calibrated.  Did the test, but it was clear from my heart rate trajectory that I was going to run out of steam well below my previous FTP.  So I stopped a bit short of where I could,  probably 25 W short.  But new FTP was down by 45 W. 

Then I felt regret for stopping short so I thought I'll do it again. I did, but with the lower FTP, it was harder to keep going for longer above threshold.  Stopped a little bit short and result was FTP back up by 1W.

That was a mess so I decided to do it again this morning.  And I decided to do the 20 min test.  This went well.  FTP back up to -4W vs October.  A bit disappointing as I've been doing a bit, but OTOH I had had a two week rest, so maybe about right. 

As well as doing it with the smart trainer I also recorded it on my head unit from my power meter.  Essentially my trainer is overstating my FTP by 12W vs the power meter.  Apparently this is typical for my trainer (TACX Vortex).  I'd not done this before but it's really useful info for outside rides. 

(I don't use PowerMatch as it doesn't work well with my trainer)

When things settle down and they are available again, I'll upgrade my trainer.  Should have done it last year as I am finding the limitations now (although if I know what they are, I guess it is not such an issue).

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 08 December, 2020, 09:13:55 am
I use Powermatch with my Tacx Bushido Smart. I think that's an older machine than your Vortex, so I'm surprised it's not as effective. Maybe the Bushido was higher in the range than the Vortex and that makes some difference.

I don't think the Ramp test works for trained steady state athletes. It's great for people new to training or new to riding near threshold, and it might work for cyclists who have an all-rounder profile, but I think if you are a diesel who can go hard for ages you are much better off with the 20 minute test.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 08 December, 2020, 09:33:53 am
I agree. Ramp test puts me about 5% lower than 95% of 20 minutes. And even that is a little bit lower than my average power over an hour racing- which includes more peaks and troughs.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 08 December, 2020, 09:35:22 am
That accords with my posts a while ago about the TR ramp test giving too low an FTP compared with actual 1-hour maximal efforts.  As Duncan says, for non-racers and those more concerned with endurance maybe the ramp test doesn't work.

Before I got the Kickr I used to estimate my FTP by riding an hour on the gym trainer at a steady effort.  Old-fashioned I know but it always gave a pretty accurate assessment of my relative fitness at a given time.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 08 December, 2020, 12:11:02 pm
The TR ramp test makes an assumption about where your FTP is in comparison to your VO2 max. If your FTP is closer to VO2 max, then the ramp test will underestimate your FTP.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 08 December, 2020, 04:20:12 pm
did a ramp test this morning, pushed quite hard reaching 185bpm. i find it fairly accurate compared to 20min tests that i've been doing before. fitness back down to 4w/kg, from 4.3w/kg in september (hardly any intensity work since then).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 December, 2020, 04:39:31 pm
I've found that if anything the ramp test over estimates for me. Maybe partly because from the last few years of rowing, I've developed more short power (a typical on the water race for us would be 750-1000m, so 3-4 minutes). My power profile suggests I do better in the 1-5m range vs longer durations.

I always think my HR is high as I get to around the 15 minute point of the ramp test, and I have to try to put that to the back of my mind and concentrate on just pushing to the end.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 December, 2020, 09:18:03 pm
Heart held out. 251W

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 08 December, 2020, 09:34:03 pm
I have also found that if I use either the ramp test or any of the other TR tests the ftp is always too high to get beyond base 2 and then I end up losing the will to live .
There is a thread on ftp on the tt  form but my view is it’s only a guide to your training I’m no longer fixated with it and just now estimate it for training purposes.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 08 December, 2020, 09:37:58 pm
Whether it’s accurate or not that seems to be my best score on the ramp test - certainly since I got the Neo just over 3 years ago.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 09 December, 2020, 08:44:18 am
Heart held out. 251W
Good going, and a good improvement through your program.  Keep it up.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 09 December, 2020, 08:55:01 am
Heart held out. 251W
Good going, and a good improvement through your program.  Keep it up.  :thumbsup:

I felt that the traditional base approach was working, but there's always that doubt at the back of your mind. Especially when you're at 15 minutes into the test, and it is already hard going, and you need to survive another 4 minutes to get to your last FTP.

I have a 3h z2 tonight.  :o
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 20 December, 2020, 07:17:12 am
As a non "aero" person, I am quite intrigued by the new "Road bike" National TT championship, which is just down the road. I wonder what the qualifying criteria will be...  very strict like the National 25 or open to all like the Hill Climb National.

Don't think I can do a 60 minute 25 mile... I can probably get close... what do you think, not a chance?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: giropaul on 20 December, 2020, 08:48:33 am
As a non "aero" person, I am quite intrigued by the new "Road bike" National TT championship, which is just down the road. I wonder what the qualifying criteria will be...  very strict like the National 25 or open to all like the Hill Climb National.

Don't think I can do a 60 minute 25 mile... I can probably get close... what do you think, not a chance?

From what I understand, and following what BMCR (British Masters, what was LVRC) do, the bike should be as required for a road race. Some races add a no aero head fairings as well.
In essence, it means no disc or very deep wheels and no tri-bars.
I’ve no doubt that such a National event would be very popular, and require qualifying times in similar competition.
Look at BMRC events, although it’s mainly road and track racing, there are quite a few time trials, especially until road racing can re-commence.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 20 December, 2020, 12:25:06 pm
As a non "aero" person, I am quite intrigued by the new "Road bike" National TT championship, which is just down the road. I wonder what the qualifying criteria will be...  very strict like the National 25 or open to all like the Hill Climb National.

Don't think I can do a 60 minute 25 mile... I can probably get close... what do you think, not a chance?

From what I understand, and following what BMCR (British Masters, what was LVRC) do, the bike should be as required for a road race. Some races add a no aero head fairings as well.
In essence, it means no disc or very deep wheels and no tri-bars.
I’ve no doubt that such a National event would be very popular, and require qualifying times in similar competition.
Look at BMRC events, although it’s mainly road and track racing, there are quite a few time trials, especially until road racing can re-commence.

My bike is fully compliant...

As for similar races, I was thinking of entering the Little Mountain TT in the road bike category and maybe another one of the Sigma series (the one in Macclesfield is doable)... of course it all is Covid dependant...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 20 December, 2020, 06:19:31 pm
As a non "aero" person, I am quite intrigued by the new "Road bike" National TT championship, which is just down the road. I wonder what the qualifying criteria will be...  very strict like the National 25 or open to all like the Hill Climb National.

Don't think I can do a 60 minute 25 mile... I can probably get close... what do you think, not a chance?

This is a bit of anecdata as I don’t do power.  I have read that, if you’re reasonably aero then something like 220w will be you under the hour.   Not entirely sure what you would need to put out on a road bike - 250w ?  Do you have a decent skinsuit/shoes/overshoes ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Karla on 20 December, 2020, 06:36:44 pm
This is a bit of anecdata as I don’t do power.  I have read that, if you’re reasonably aero then something like 220w will be you under the hour.

In my last one I did 239* W for a short 56.  That was with a chilly September 8am start on a reasonably quick DC.

*My PM said 235 but that included nearly a minute of pre/post event coasting. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 20 December, 2020, 10:59:19 pm
Feck. I put out almost 220 for an hour when I'm racing on zwift. I should take up this outside malarkey.

It's all about the kilos for the next six months. I'll be fairly satisfied if I keep the same watts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Pedal Castro on 21 December, 2020, 05:55:21 am
This is a bit of anecdata as I don’t do power.  I have read that, if you’re reasonably aero then something like 220w will be you under the hour.

My indoors FTP is around 220W and I did 2x25s this year just failing to beat the hour by less than a minute both times on the F1, which is not super fast. Had they been on the E2 I am fairly certain they would have been around short 58s
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 21 December, 2020, 07:52:41 am
My 53:45 PB in 2019 on a DC near Norwich must be 250w ish ? I did get my CDA down to 0.2.

Perhaps we should move this to the TT thread ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 21 December, 2020, 09:22:26 am
This should be in the TT thread.  It's all so course/position/equipment/conditions dependant.  I've not done a 25, but I've done quite a few 10s averaging over 220W, and I've only been under 27 minutes once (229W, H10/17R)! I suspect a normalised power of 244W might have been my best power figure for a 10 in the last couple of years - got me a 27:11!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 26 December, 2020, 04:27:53 pm
by doing a festive 500 i have put two weeks worth of base training into one ride. this wouldn't be endorsed by coaches, but sometimes it's fun to do the things that are out-there.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201226/d41e0e08b72c2f5e7eb655dc137d9c0c.jpg)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 26 December, 2020, 05:11:44 pm
My coach has got used to me clearing off for long rides without warning.  Sometimes you can’t plan for those days when the weather looks Ok and you set off at first light.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 December, 2020, 05:39:08 pm
This year has been a good year for trying different things. It’s not like anything got impacted if it had a detrimental effect.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 26 December, 2020, 06:21:42 pm
This year has been a good year for trying different things.

Indeed.  I'd never even thought of getting a smart trainer until this March.  I'm now spending several hours a week doing TrainerRoad intervals on the Kickr and really enjoying it. I doubt I'd ever have done a structured training plan without the national lockdown. 

Whether this will be reflected in improvements in road speed/endurance remains to be seen, but as you say it's certainly something different.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 27 December, 2020, 08:11:46 pm
Well I was 2 workouts away from finishing week 5 of base 2 when I bashed my heal after a front wheel mtb tuck yesterday  :'(
Hairline fracture of the upper tibia currently strapped up in a sort of cricket pad until a virtual fracture clinic in the week :facepalm:
Currently more worried about work but hopefully be back on it in a month or two   ::-)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: simonp on 27 December, 2020, 09:34:44 pm
Oh bugger. Heal well.

I had two days off over Christmas but that weakness is done now and I was back on it with Hunter -2 tonight. 2h SS intervals workout, total 1h in zone.

Have stopped TB HV 3 it seemed too much jump in volume and intensity from 2. So back to SSB 1. But I’m going to do long z2 rides and might ditch the threshold work.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 29 December, 2020, 08:04:49 pm
commuting* is good for base miles, i used to have 7.5-8hrs of z1-2 "training" while commuting each week. add a couple of higher intensity rides/workouts and it's a good recipe to stay fit.

this video talks about base training, done "the right way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8)

* one of the best things about it is consistency

Agreed.  I used to have 10hrs per week of commuting with a couple of turbo sessions and then a long road ride once a week.  I now live further from work so it’s 2h30 each way.  At the moment I’m doing this on a Tuesday and a Thursday and turboing Mon/Wed/Fri.  I’ll still do a long ride on Saturday.   It should give me roughly the same weekly hours but it’s a bit lumpy.   It’s only week 1 so I’ll review after a few weeks.

That didn’t go too well.  I think I was getting a bit tired a bit quickly.  I spent a lot of last week eating and sleeping, so I’m due a rethink.  A lot of my road miles were being done in the dark which I think had an effect.

I think going to the office for at least January is unlikely.  I have been riding in my ‘lunch break’ and the daylight is helping.  I’ll up the turbo hours I think to improve the quality.

My earliest TT will be early May so 4 months to get myself up to speed.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: akin on 30 December, 2020, 05:19:55 pm
I have joined the fold.

My fitness had reached an all time low, I stopped Audaxing for a while and with no commuting anymore I was overweight and no where near active enough. Lockdown gave me a kick up the arse and Ive started riding again, lost a few stone and managed to drag myself round a late season SR.

I have just finished my first block of training on Trainer Road last week and am in the recovery week. Did Sweet Spot Base 1 - Low Volume but have added in extra rides outside each week to add some extra traditional base miles of 4-12 hours a week on top of that. I had a false start to a block at the start of November and found the initial sweet spot work incredibly hard, but it turned out I was quite unwell, I restarted the block after some rest and all went well.

I have also done the Festive 500 (Pending 9km of utilitarian riding tomorrow) through the back end of week 5 and into this week which is my designated recovery week. Will retest my FTP at the start of next week as a base line for the next block. I definitely feel improvement within myself having done this consistent block of training, I have never done anything of this nature and the initial introduction to sustained sweet spot and over-unders around threshold gives me a fairly good indication of exactly how little time I spend around threshold when out riding.

I have also been playing around with aerobars and my position on the bike throughout which is not ideal, I tested my FTP when upright before I was ill and now my hip angle is more closed so when I retest there may not be a big change but that wont deter me. Hoping to keep the going with the intervals and see where it takes my riding.

I am planning on progressing the sessions to a mid-volume plan and cutting back a bit of outside riding for a block due to the limited options for quality riding in London. My current thoughts are that there is not sufficient increase in the Time in Zone built into the Trainer Road Plans for sweet spot. I might adapt a Low Volume plan in the future and add in longer Sweet Spot Progressions with less rest as I feel they will be more beneficial for me if I want to target longer TT's.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 01 January, 2021, 09:42:45 pm
I started my '20/'21 season's TrainerRoad-based training plan 2 1/2 months ago, taking my first ramp test for over 12 months. During the past year, despite having followed a TR plan for nearly all of it, I'd just left my FTP at the same value, a value which was quite a bit lower than the year-ago tested value because I wanted an easier time in TR! The result was that I did a year of "maintenance", which was OK considering Covid.

After 3 years of TR I've zeroed in on doing "just" low volume plans, but focusing on quality and trying to be very well recovered for harder sessions so I can complete workouts with high compliance. The TR stuff can be augmented or very occasionally replaced by outdoor rides (inc group rides) from time to time, but since mid-Oct through until the Spring, the focus will be very much on indoor workouts and following the plan.

I also run, once or maybe twice per week, keeping the pace more to endurance/tempo level rather than caning it so as not to compromise recovery (fast runs beat me up a lot compared to steadier ones). Also, I'm doing upper body weights - no leg work - twice per week. The running and weights are for general well-being, aimed at keeping me more well-rounded and robust health-wise than just riding a bike all the time. It's also more interesting for me: I find that too much time on the bike, week after week, is quite boring for me, whether indoor or outdoors, but we're all different so each to their own. No criticism of anyone else's approach intended.

My so-called "schedule" also means that every month I interrupt the TR plan for a week-to-10-days, where I do more running and longer, steadier outdoor rides, geared towards building muscular endurance.

My target event was June '21, now Sep '21 if the world co-operates.

I'm not going to do many ramp tests between now and then, but will manually adjust (raise, ideally!) FTP as I feel progress is made across the plan. I'm currently at 255w, 3.65w/kg. My goal is primary a process goal, so the FTP will just be whatever it is, but I'd hope for 260, and 265 would be nice. So, no great uplift being aimed for by me.

My FTP now is roughly where it was a year ago, but I feel that I've made quite a lot of progress in that time that FTP doesn't capture. I feel that muscular endurance is improved and I recover faster, more easily able to string back-to-back days together. Some days, like today, I do both a 10k run and an endurance turbo session, and it seems fine. I've also set power records across a bunch of shorter duration (VO2mac-type) timeframes. Maybe down the line, these non-FTP, mainly unmeasured, improvements will be transformed into a decent FTP bump, which would be a pleasant bonus.

Good luck to everyone in the season ahead, whatever your goals. May you largely dodge injury and illness(!) and may your completed TSS plots slope progressively upwards and to the right  ;)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 01 January, 2021, 09:52:14 pm
One thing I failed to mention: being on the LV plan, I commonly tack-on 15min or occasionally 30 min endurance level to the end of each TR workout, adding up to one hour's extra endurance work per week.

NB I'm using a Neo trainer, and as I'm primarily training for climbing hills and mountains I do all significant work intervals in a pretty low gear (low kinetic energy in the flywheel) to better simulate climbing pedal action dynamics and muscle recruitment. I switch to a big gear for all recovery intervals and for the extra tacked-on endurance work that I mentioned above, to better simulate cruising along on the flat. Specificity etc.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rob on 04 January, 2021, 08:46:33 am
One thing I failed to mention: being on the LV plan, I commonly tack-on 15min or occasionally 30 min endurance level to the end of each TR workout, adding up to one hour's extra endurance work per week.

My coach often puts a note saying you can do an extra 20-30mins zone 2 at the end of a session 'if you feel like it'.   It's quite handy if I haven't been out on the road as much as I would have liked.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 04 January, 2021, 03:16:12 pm
One thing I failed to mention: being on the LV plan, I commonly tack-on 15min or occasionally 30 min endurance level to the end of each TR workout, adding up to one hour's extra endurance work per week.

My coach often puts a note saying you can do an extra 20-30mins zone 2 at the end of a session 'if you feel like it'.   It's quite handy if I haven't been out on the road as much as I would have liked.

That's me. Across these cold months when I get to do hardly any road riding and so little steady work, I try these add-ons at the end of most workouts. No matter how grim the workout, after a few mins recovery I can always manage 15mins+ in Z2 watching Netflix or Youtube vids etc.

Whether there's much benefit of this I've no way of knowing - very modest, at best, I'd have guessed - but even if it's just psychological that's better than nothing   ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 19 January, 2021, 03:34:19 pm
After my first 3 solid months on Trainer Road (sweet spot base MV x 2) my ramp test today gave an FTP of 250 (3.64 w/kg).  It's historically been around 220 for the last several years without structured training i.e. just rides and a blast on the spin bike in the gym twice a week.  Unfortunately this now means a world of pain for the next TR plan (sustained power build - medium volume).

Interestingly I also found my max HR is significantly higher than I previously thought - 180 as opposed to the 175 I've never surpassed before, on or off road  :o
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: akin on 27 January, 2021, 09:49:45 am
Nice 30w boost ahead of the build phase. Enjoy those first few sessions of adapting. Did the increase come in one big jump or was it incremental over the two build phases?

Im in week 4 of Sweet Spot Base mid volume currently so will re assess in a few weeks. Im in a very similar position with no structured training before this so hoping to make some early easy gains. Certainly feeling much stronger for the work and mentally able to hold higher power for longer.

Performance gains aside it is providing some much needed structure, routine and positivity amidst the chaos.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 27 January, 2021, 11:35:04 am
Er.. enjoying wouldn't be the word I'd use for the build phase.  I "failed" my first workout at the end of week 1 - Red Lake +8.  It looked like a monster on paper but I thought TR must know best.  I was dying by the end of the 3rd interval so lowered the intensity to 95% for the last two and just about finished but I was a mess afterwards.  Yesterday I had Baird +6 and that looked equally improbable so I swapped it for a less taxing version.

It's the VO2max workouts that kill me.  I've always been happy with endurance, sweet-spot and threshold (years of audax  :D), but as I don't race and there's no VO2max in the SSB1, I'm totally unprepared for that kind of effort.  I'm going to struggle on in the hope things improve.  Now I've endured the shame of lowering intensity once It'll be easier to do it again if needs be.

The FTP increases were incremental over the 3 months of base so looked realistic, but maybe I over-tested (on the last one in particular).  The only way to find out is to plough on and see what happens.  If it all gets too much I can lower FTP.  Im not too bothered.  As you say, the main thing is it gives you some structure and focus. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: akin on 27 January, 2021, 01:48:58 pm
Just had a look at what is to come in the weeks ahead.

From your message Im not clear. Did you do SSB 1 and then SSB 2? Or repeat SSB 1 twice? If the latter it is an even bigger leap for your body.

Im currently doing SSB 2 after completing SSB 1. SSB 2 has definitely introduced more VO2 Max workouts and more above threshold work into each week. The time in each zone progressing too. Those are certainly the ones I have found more challenging, getting through them all to this point but aware they are quite short at the minute. The prospect of the jump to 6 minutes at Vo2 sounds daunting, but if its incremental it becomes more realistic.

Im in a similar position of lots of Audax riding in my past so that steady state power on tired legs feels almost strangely comforting. Vo2 Max, less so....
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 27 January, 2021, 03:34:35 pm
I did SSB1 x 2.  That was my mistake I think  ::-)  Looking through the plans I missed SSB2 completely.  So yes, going straight into 5 x 6m intervals at VO2max was something of a shock, particularly on the back of a 10w FTP bump.

Now that I'm here I think I'll stick with it and adjust intensity / swap workouts / lower FTP as seems appropriate.  Presumably it will achieve the roughly the same results as reverting to SSB2.

However, I want to try and avoid experiencing a sense of dread every time I descend to the pain cave for a session.  Apparently it's meant to be fun  ;D

EDIT:  Actually, on second thoughts I think I'll ditch the power build plan and revert to SSB2.  Just had a look and the VO2 stuff looks a lot more manageable.  Hopefully that will better prepare me for the build phase. Not much point in a plan if you have to alter and dodge lots of the sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 27 January, 2021, 06:20:29 pm
going from ssb1 to build is a big step, especially if one is not used to vo2 workouts. i could barely manage the build after completing ssb2 - it's a tough plan! a lot of suffering, but the gains were big too (at least for me).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 January, 2021, 10:14:29 am
I've just started Sustained Power Build and, yesterday, I binned the first set of intervals which was unders and overs.

I knew they would be hard, so I had already dialled the level down by 5%, but it wasn't enough and I was feeling laboured during the warm-up.  I've had three weeks off, so I expect FTP will have slid, but would have been hard anyway.

My heart wasn't in it so I went out and did a hilly local loop instead, which should have similar training impact and was a lot more enjoyable. 

I'll try the other intervals but, if they are a bit much, I'll either dial down more, or swap them out for outside rides of similar tempo.  I don't have a problem with dialling down the intensity during an interval but, if I know it is going to be hard, I'd rather dial it down by the most I think I'll need and potentially nudge it up if I have taken it down by too much. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 28 January, 2021, 01:57:21 pm
Just done first session of SSB2 (MV) - Ebbetts.  Sweetspot with very short sprints. Much more manageable and actually fun.  Rather like getting away at the lights when commuting racing!

Hopefully if I can embed the new higher FTP then I'll be better prepared for a build phase.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 January, 2021, 09:40:11 pm
Done the second set of Build intervals.. It was 5x6 at something like 108% of threshold.
did them outside and managed them, although power was 3-4% down. They were pretty hard but good to get back on the programme.
tomorrow is 3x20. I expect I'll need to do those outside too.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 29 January, 2021, 10:15:51 pm
Done the second set of Build intervals.. It was 5x6 at something like 108% of threshold.
did them outside and managed them, although power was 3-4% down. They were pretty hard but good to get back on the programme.
tomorrow is 3x20. I expect I'll need to do those outside too.

Red Lake +8?  That's what persuaded me to revert to SSB2  ;D

How do you do the outside workouts - on the road?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 January, 2021, 08:54:48 am
Done the second set of Build intervals.. It was 5x6 at something like 108% of threshold.
did them outside and managed them, although power was 3-4% down. They were pretty hard but good to get back on the programme.
tomorrow is 3x20. I expect I'll need to do those outside too.

Red Lake +8?  That's what persuaded me to revert to SSB2  ;D

How do you do the outside workouts - on the road?

Yes. In West London the best place is Richmond Park. There are some reasonably flat bits which are ok for intervals, and you can finish going up a hill. But if the park was much busier than it was yesterday afternoon, it wouldn't be viable.
I really don't fancy intervals at sweet spot or higher that last over 5 minutes on a turbo.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 30 January, 2021, 10:09:35 am
Interesting.  I only tried a TR session outdoors once and didn't really get the hang of it.  It was on the Olympic Park road circuit so should have been ideal.  Can't remember exactly what went wrong but in the end I binned the TR session and just used it as a regular training session.

My power figures are certainly higher outdoors.  I averaged 256w on my last Richmond Park 3-laps.  Very much doubt if I could replicate that on the trainer.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Davef on 30 January, 2021, 06:29:08 pm
A garmin IQ app would be good. Does one exist ?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 January, 2021, 08:14:24 pm
Interesting.  I only tried a TR session outdoors once and didn't really get the hang of it.  It was on the Olympic Park road circuit so should have been ideal.  Can't remember exactly what went wrong but in the end I binned the TR session and just used it as a regular training session.

My power figures are certainly higher outdoors.  I averaged 256w on my last Richmond Park 3-laps.  Very much doubt if I could replicate that on the trainer.

I dont try to do anything clever and don't use the trainerroad app, just do the intervals as best I can, mostly watching power and lap power. Obviously there is more variation and I sometimes have to ease off for traffic, roundabouts or deer, but it works well enough.

My power measures about 10w lower than the turbo. I track it by regularly having my phone monitoring the power meter while on the turbo. So yesterday's intervals were probably about right correcting for that. But I was at my limit.

Finished my first week of Build today. Opted to do the longer, lower intensity version (boarstone) rather than 3x20 at sweet spot, which I would have found tough on the turbo. Pleased with how the week has gone and feels good to have got back into it.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 02 February, 2021, 08:42:21 am
VO2 max intervals yesterday, 90 secs long. They were a bit too much and I had to stop during the second (of 15). I dialed the intensity back by 10% and they were about right. I tried to go back up 2% for the second block of 5 but it was too hard.

If they had been 30 or 60 secs long I might have managed them. I did in November.

It's unders and overs on Wednesday.need to decide whether to try them -10% or replace them. Could swap in some 30 or 60 sec VO2 max - thats an idea.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 02 February, 2021, 08:47:41 am
In theory you're training different systems with the VO2 Max & over/unders, so a) the over/unders may not feel as bad and b) switching to more VO2 max won't have the same training benefit.

I had some kind of 24hr bug last week- so exhausted I could barely walk- and a week later I'm still not on track. Tonight is race night and it will be painful.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 02 February, 2021, 12:16:55 pm
In theory you're training different systems with the VO2 Max & over/unders, so a) the over/unders may not feel as bad and b) switching to more VO2 max won't have the same training benefit.

I had some kind of 24hr bug last week- so exhausted I could barely walk- and a week later I'm still not on track. Tonight is race night and it will be painful.

Agree, but I couldn't manage the unders and overs last week so need a plan that I believe is achievable.  Doing the easier VO2s would give me confidence ahead of next week, when I would obviously duck the unders and overs again. 

But probably best to dial back the unders and overs, I guess. 

Essentially my FTP has slid with 3 weeks of inactivity in Jan but I don't want to dial it down across the board as the longer, slower stuff is still fine, and would be too easy if it were reduced.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 February, 2021, 09:10:08 pm
Did the unders and overs.  Decided to try last week's session that I had failed on, as marginally easier than this weeks. 
I started at 95% and it was not a problem, so I upped it gradually, getting to 100% for the last few.  It felt good to manage something that I hadn't been able to do a week ago. 

It's these little victories that make me keep doing it!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bernster on 04 February, 2021, 09:45:09 am
Agree 100%, I sometimes wonder why I get up early 3 times a week and put myself through it, but it's very satisfying (and a little addictive) to look at the average power charts and see the odd season or all time PR set.

6 x 3 minutes at 120% FTP this morning and I was just about hanging on for the last one  :hand:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 04 February, 2021, 09:59:18 am
Absolutely. It's easy to get demoralised when you're drowning in data which all appears to be trending the wrong way.

20 minutes of tempo felt really good last night, despite Tuesday's racing. Probably means I didn't race hard enough  :-\
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: morbihan on 04 February, 2021, 07:05:55 pm
Have you considered that you are getting older Frank? ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 February, 2021, 07:44:05 pm
Sure, but I'm not alone in that!

I didn't do any structured training until a couple of years ago so I find myself constantly searching for validation that it works. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: akin on 04 February, 2021, 08:16:51 pm
Im in Week 5 of the loading cycle for Sweet Spot Base 2 Mid Volume. Been really consistent hitting the targets throughout, challenged a bit more each week with the introduction of Vo2 and Threshold work which I haven't done before.

Been really enjoying the process, but with limited other stuff to fill my life outside work I have been putting in extra sessions of endurance and sweet spot leading to higher TSS.

It has caught up with me a bit this week, been feeling quite fatigued the last few days and not having experience of knowing if Ive gone too far or if its just the appropriate level of tiredness after 5 solid weeks.

I know it is likely partly my own fault for not adhering to the rest days, albeit interspersing endurance between the intensity. Some of the extra sessions each week have been gradual increases to Time in Zone at Sweet Spot, with longer intervals at 90% with shorter rests. Looking back at the last few days the fatigue is understandable.

Sunday - 2x35 minutes at 90%. Was a mental and physical challenge but great to see how my endurance at higher power has improved.   

Monday - 6 x 3 minutes at 120% FTP. Found this one really tough but dragged myself through it and felt like a big achievement. Didn't look pretty i'm sure.

Tuesday - 60 minute at Zone 2 - I nearly lost it on this one and needed to eat loads to get through it.

Wednesday - 4x10 at FTP with 2 minute rests - Came into it questioning if I should have another rest day as I was still feeling fatigued, however, I decided to give it a go. Glad I did as I got through it all hitting my numbers.

A break today other than some gentle utilitarian journeys. A few more sessions to complete the week of over-unders and sweet spot. Then some time for my body to compensate. I'm looking forward to a miserable come down in rest week. Likely try to do a bit of outside pootling as I have been glued to the trainer.

Then onto a build phase where Im going to be a bit more disciplined with taking the rest in between the heavier sessions.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 04 February, 2021, 08:45:30 pm
One of the mantras of the TrainerRoad team is that the inbuilt rest/recovery days have equal importance to the workout days.  Without appropriate recovery the muscle repair doesn't have a chance to happen and so the build can't progress.

Whether this is correct or not I don't know but as I'm paying them to deliver a plan that theoretically will lead to me achieving my specified goals I think I ought to take their advice.  Otherwise I may as well devise my own plan and save the money.  ;)

BTW I'm on the same plan - SSB2 mid volume, but week 2.  The threshold and VO2max stuff is "interesting".
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 February, 2021, 09:17:51 pm
There’s this perception that more intensity and volume means more fitness / greater gains etc.  But without adequate rest / recovery you won’t get fitter, but will in fact end up chronically fatigued. You may even end up less fit or long term ill. There’s a limit to how much you can pile it on.

Fitness = Stress AND Recovery.

The level of recovery you need may be more or less than others. Sounds like you’ve overdone it for yourself and I’d be taking rest now. Rather than pushing on when “quite fatigued” over a period of days.

Plans shouldn’t be rigid, you need to listen to your body and adapt as necessary .
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bernster on 05 February, 2021, 08:35:03 am
+1 for the advice from toontra and Phil - rest is really important. I'm just off the back of a week off, which wasn't specified in the TR plan, but I felt I needed. I don't feel I've lost any fitness, maybe a tiny bit at the top end, but I feel fresh again after yesterdays session and ready to up the workload again.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 February, 2021, 09:07:05 am
Mid volume +extras is really pushing it, especially if the extras have any intensity to them, and also if you haven't been doing this sort of training before. Have a look at the high volume plans - the intensity is dialled back with the increase in volume.
If you're needing a ton of eating to get through an hour of zone 2, that's a real warning sign.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: akin on 05 February, 2021, 12:32:27 pm
Yes, I do agree with you all on this.  I don't want it to seem like I was advocating adding stuff in, more recognising I had done it and it was an error.

I suppose one thing to consider for me is the role cycling plays in generally being a stress relief and as a positive thing to manage emotional wellbeing. Whilst I wasn't really adding things in to increase the TSS specifically I acknowledge it has inadvertently done that and I need to be mindful of that as I move forward.

I have been focusing lots on the recovery day-to-day over this period as had more space to do so with life outside work time on hold. I have been making sure my nutrition is good and not generally having back to back hard days. The tiredness this week has been even more surprising as I had felt really good for the preceding 4 plus weeks.

I recognise that it was because I made a significant mis-step at the start of the week with too much intensity close together due to poor planning and foresight. Very much a lesson learnt, but I imagine it definitely wont be the last mistake I make and need to learn from.

The gap between intense sessions is also more pertinent when I am further into a cycle with it being a cumulative load. 5 weeks is a long time to be going, and evidently I have learnt that my body needs more time in week 5 than in the earlier weeks where you may have more room for error. The build phase's will be shorter duration before the rest weeks, but with the higher intensity with definitely need more restraint as I know how important the recovery is.

I'll be taking cues from all of your advice and aspiring to make more rational decisions. Whether that is building in an extra recovery time when needed or shifting to an alternative plan if the intensity is too high.

Having a few days off now and I am feeling much better for it, going to re appraise tomorrow whether I do the weekend sessions before my rest week.




Title: Re: Base training
Post by: AntLockyer on 05 February, 2021, 01:15:06 pm
I absolutely don't go over zone 1 on Mondays and generally do not touch a bike. What I'm not good at is resting any other day.

Like today CTL = 43, ATL = 68, TSB = -33. I think I should be resting in order to maximise the effort I've put in this week, but as it is not a Monday I want to do something. As it was I managed to do 30 mins mostly zone 1 practicing wheel sucking (because I sucked at it in a TTT last night).

The thought of a rigid structure really turns me off, I would hope that 1 day off a week is sufficient as I'm only doing 500ish TSS a week at the moment.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 February, 2021, 01:17:52 pm
I don't know how old you are, but the podcast repeatedly mentions that as you get older, a 5 week loading block might be too much. The Build blocks are 3 weeks of load and 1 week recovery - you do more work but I found that to be more suited to me than 5 weeks of load.
How much TSS you can handle is entirely personal. There's no way I would have managed 500 a week for long without exploding.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: AntLockyer on 05 February, 2021, 01:39:56 pm
I'm 46 mine is a recovery week every 4th week
(https://i.imgur.com/oOkk9L0.png)
I want to see how much I can increase my training by but as I only started back on a bike in December after a several year break I'm taking it as steady as I can manage. My gut reaction is to just ride my bike as much as I can, while keeping to zone 2 effort (RPE, HR or Power) as much as possible.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 06 February, 2021, 01:12:30 pm
. My gut reaction is to just ride my bike as much as I can, while keeping to zone 2 effort (RPE, HR or Power) as much as possible.

That sounds sensible. Building up a good base before trying to do hard intervals.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 06 February, 2021, 01:17:31 pm
I've finished week 2 of Build.

I'm just hanging on. Friday's intervals were 4x8 and I managed the power for the first two, but was 4-5% low for the last two. Legs just didn't have it. Today I swapped the long trainer session for a ride outside.

One more week then a rest week!

Am planning to fit in a longer ride for the end of next week, if the weather is OK. Looks like we might be getting a couple of days of snow now.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: morbihan on 07 February, 2021, 01:49:37 pm
Frank, Jo and I both did the Build Me up programme on Zwift early last year during lockdown.
It was a 12 week block that I would rate as very challenging.
There were sessions were both of us could not hold the required power. Sometimes the spikes, sometimes the length of, say,  a medium high output. We were both pretty crestfallen if we had to switch down the intensity or got bogged down and just plain came to a stop,  like we had failed.
It wasn't always the same day that we struggled, it was often on different sections of the programme, but there was a lot of overlap.
Both of us had doubts we would be able to complete the course without switching down the intensity permanently.
We both completed it though and and ended up with correspondingly higher FTP readings.
 It was an improvement in fits and starts rather than linear though.  Some good sessions where it felt relatively easy (surprising us) and others where we felt really worked over.
Rest was often the key, and that particular programme is structured so that you can't access a hard session before you have had a day or so off.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: rdtrdt on 07 February, 2021, 05:42:20 pm
I'm not going to do many ramp tests between now and then, but will manually adjust (raise, ideally!) FTP as I feel progress is made across the plan. I'm currently at 255w, 3.65w/kg. My goal is primary a process goal, so the FTP will just be whatever it is, but I'd hope for 260, and 265 would be nice. So, no great uplift being aimed for by me.

Not long after posting the above in the new year, I faced the reality check of the latter weeks of SSB2, specifically Mary Austin -1, and had a very rough time of it! It blew me off course so much that I decided to go off-plan for a few weeks, skipping the remainder of SSB2, and reverted to a tried-and-tested combo of using Tempo plus a sprinkling of VO2max workouts for a few weeks. Also, I reduced my FTP setting by a couple of percent.

Now, having just begun Sustainable Power Build, even at this reduced FTP setting I've managed an all time power record, so that's encouraging. If the plan begins to feel too difficult though, I shan't hesitate to reduce FTP by another couple of percent...

What I learned this time last year was that having my FTP set just a little bit lower transforms my enthusiasm for sticking to the plan and getting the training done. If FTP's set just a little higher, then workouts can become so challenging as to be a miserable experience, even if I'm able to complete them with decent compliance, and I can end up dreading each session due to the suffering that awaits. Furthermore, when workouts are that challenging I'll often feel trashed afterwards and recovery for the next workout becomes much more difficult.

Hence my approach now is to ere on the side of caution, aiming for a (much) lesser 'slope' upwards in improvement. Consistency of training trumps pretty much everything else, I think. No point in me trying to be a hero by aiming too high, blowing up as a result and then becoming jaded with it all. If by taking this less ambitious approach I'm still able to set some all time power records here and there then I'm probably not going too far wrong.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 07 February, 2021, 06:13:55 pm
Sounds eminently sensible, rdtrdt.  Like you I had to re-assess recently and reverted from SPB (mv) back to SSB2 (mv).  As you say, if the hard sessions fill you with dread and you have to start fiddling about with reduced intensity then it's best just to back off the FTP a smidge.

FTP derived from a ramp test is fairly arbitrary anyway.  I suspect many people over-test if they really go for it.  As you say, sustainability is the key, and if you dread sessions on TR that's not going to encourage anyone to stick at it (unless they are a complete masochist - or audaxer  ;D)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 07 February, 2021, 06:19:18 pm
I average 550 TSS with one week in 3 being a rest week of about 350. I don't think TSS is a great measure if you do a lot of low intensity work- the time you spend doing it artificially inflates the affect. I also need a better way of keeping a curb on strength work- TSS massively underestimates. I don't have a better numerical solution though so will continue to live with it.
Basically M-F is about 200 and the weekend is either 400+ or 100ish. I feel like I could keep this up forever- which is probably a good job as every event gets shunted out...



Title: Re: Base training
Post by: akin on 16 February, 2021, 09:59:30 am
Had my recovery week last week and adhered completely to the low TSS and low intensity. Enjoyed being outside on the bike even if it was just wiggling around Newham on my CX bike.

Did my Ramp Test yesterday before commencing Sustained Power Build. The much anticipated big early gains meant I was excited to see the results of my 6 week investment ..... 2.5% drop in FTP.

Didn't feel great from threshold in the ramp so not totally surprised. Could just be a bad day. Perhaps my fuelling was off. Sleep the previous days was not great. Could be power meter margin of error. Could be an error in the protocol of the test. Ha Ha.  :facepalm:

I already mentioned despite good compliance with target numbers I tailed off in the last week of SSB2 feeling tired. Perhaps it is just indicative of too much extra intensity and not enough rest and adaptation. Possibly a result of me adding things in. I also wonder what the impact of no long rides was during this period. Many possibilities.

Ultimately a minimal change so no big issue. Temporary disappointment aside.

Ego said maintain my previous number as I completed everything through Sweet Spot Base.

Head now says take the 2.5% drop and go into build from there and re-test in 4 weeks.


Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 February, 2021, 11:13:19 am
As pointed out to you 12 days ago, more is not necessarily better.  You can end up with non functional overreaching.  You generate the fatigue but don’t gain any benefit from it in terms of fitness.

This might be of interest to you, as it talks about overreaching, overtraining etc.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/fast-talk/id1490521721?i=1000489937382
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: zigzag on 16 February, 2021, 12:11:53 pm
Ego said maintain my previous number as I completed everything through Sweet Spot Base.

Head now says take the 2.5% drop and go into build from there and re-test in 4 weeks.

having done the ss build few times, your head has a better idea :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 16 February, 2021, 12:15:01 pm
The boy Dylan Johnson is not loving TrainerRoad plans.

https://youtu.be/C0n-nnRbFBs


"The issue is that TrainerRoad simply over prescribes intensity"
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: akin on 16 February, 2021, 01:50:16 pm
As pointed out to you 12 days ago, more is not necessarily better.  You can end up with non functional overreaching.  You generate the fatigue but don’t gain any benefit from it in terms of fitness.

Yep, The outcome certainly seems to point to the argument you made. I took it on board at the time, took a rest and dialled back all the intensity from that point on.  Thanks for the link Ill certainly have a listen.

your head has a better idea :)

I'm sure that is the case in most instances, I should be thankful I will be letting it lead the way with this decision.  :)

The boy Dylan Johnson is not loving TrainerRoad plans.

I actually looked at this yesterday and thought about what he was saying. Whilst there is a suggestion of balance in the video I didn't like the cherry picking of literature to serve his argument. Then I remembered it was an opinion on the internet, left the high horse in the stable and absorbed it with a healthy pinch of salt.

I essentially agreed with much of the substance of what he was arguing especially with reference to the higher volume plans. With plans which are designed to keep you largely on a trainer advocating long slow approaches is a hard sell. Its no wonder they up to intensity and shorten the sessions to make a more palatable approach for their target audience.

Some people seem to have success with it, but as with anything designed for a mass market its not an ideal approach for all. You can quickly tell if back to back intense days may be too much. I have reconsidered the volume plan i may use going forward at different times and how switching out some of the sweet spot with long and slow rides may benefit me. The TR plans do actually offer this option to make more balanced plans but that didn't come across in Dylan's video.

Its not perfect but in fairness I feel it does try to guide you to start small and take manageable increases with rest built in. But as a self training tool it is open to human error too. Specifically with the framing of sweet spot as a highly repeatable effort it does lead to the potential for overdoing it. Especially when its a tool being used by inexperienced people.  Insert anecdotal evidence here.  :facepalm:



Despite my initial misguided enthusiasm and naivety potentially costing me some gains in functional power I can try to comfort myself with the accompanying weight loss and diversion from less healthy lockdown patterns of behaviour :-\

I will keep applying the lessons and hopefully find a manageable, productive and repeatable work load.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 16 February, 2021, 02:04:54 pm
There is a giant thread on the TR forum about that video (quite a lot of people agreeing with him). One thing I didn't realise was that the high volume plans used to have more Z2 rides in them, but people never did them. So they re-evaluated, and added shorter more intense rides, with a note saying that you can do longer less intense ones if you want. I think that kinda illustrates the problem that TR have - their core product is based around shorter, intense trainer rides. As you add volume, you can't keep the intensity, but then it becomes boring on the turbo and people don't do them, which means they don't get faster and they quit.
When I could train, I really liked TR, but I only ever did the low volume plans - I added my own outside rides or weight lifting on top, but always mindful of the stress it added.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 16 February, 2021, 06:33:25 pm
Head now says take the 2.5% drop and go into build from there and re-test in 4 weeks.

Having experienced the move from SSB1 to SPB, I'd go with the -2.5%.  If you were finding SSB2 hard, SPB adds new levels of pain right from week 1.  I reverted to SSB2 - when I move back up to SPB I'll probably ignore any FTP increase on the first ramp test, and maybe might even reduce FTP if the first few session are too much..

BTW, I have a couple of TR trial invites if anyone's interested.  I got started with one from DuncanM  :thumbsup:  I have to say that after 4 months I'm really getting into the swing of the regular sessions, and in place of outdoor riding it's given me structure that I've never had before.  I hate to think how unfit I'd now be if I hadn't nabbed a Kickr at the start of the first lockdown.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 February, 2021, 07:49:51 am
There is a giant thread on the TR forum about that video (quite a lot of people agreeing with him). One thing I didn't realise was that the high volume plans used to have more Z2 rides in them, but people never did them. So they re-evaluated, and added shorter more intense rides, with a note saying that you can do longer less intense ones if you want. I think that kinda illustrates the problem that TR have - their core product is based around shorter, intense trainer rides. As you add volume, you can't keep the intensity, but then it becomes boring on the turbo and people don't do them, which means they don't get faster and they quit.
When I could train, I really liked TR, but I only ever did the low volume plans - I added my own outside rides or weight lifting on top, but always mindful of the stress it added.

Interesting.  I've just listened to a chunk of the Johnson video.  Their business model is about people using turbos so they can't start recommending loads of long, outdoor rides.  So they've been pushed into recommending sub-optimal training!

I've certainly not had any great results from using TR plans.  I've not necessarily stuck to them fully, but that's kind of the point - if they are too hard, you are more likely to fall off. 

Two interval sessions per week, plus long rides, is what I've been recommended by coaches in the past. 

How do the Zwift or other widely available plans compare?
   
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 February, 2021, 08:40:47 am
There is a giant thread on the TR forum about that video (quite a lot of people agreeing with him). One thing I didn't realise was that the high volume plans used to have more Z2 rides in them, but people never did them. So they re-evaluated, and added shorter more intense rides, with a note saying that you can do longer less intense ones if you want. I think that kinda illustrates the problem that TR have - their core product is based around shorter, intense trainer rides. As you add volume, you can't keep the intensity, but then it becomes boring on the turbo and people don't do them, which means they don't get faster and they quit.
When I could train, I really liked TR, but I only ever did the low volume plans - I added my own outside rides or weight lifting on top, but always mindful of the stress it added.

Interesting.  I've just listened to a chunk of the Johnson video.  Their business model is about people using turbos so they can't start recommending loads of long, outdoor rides.  So they've been pushed into recommending sub-optimal training!

I've certainly not had any great results from using TR plans.  I've not necessarily stuck to them fully, but that's kind of the point - if they are too hard, you are more likely to fall off. 
I don't think that's entirely fair - they have an outside ride feature that allows you to do the TR approved workout using your garmin/wahoo on the open road. And the podcast always used to (I kinda stopped listening after I stopped riding my bike) recommend adding zone 2 outdoor miles as the best volume enhancer.
I had great results from following their low volume plans - my FTP went from 171 with just riding around to 261 over a year and a half of TR and the odd outside ride (both on 20 minute tests). I never had a problem following the plans. But I'm their ideal candidate - time crunched cyclist training 4 hours a week with a fun weekend ride sometimes, and wanting to TT or CX race without embarrassing myself.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 February, 2021, 09:03:46 am

I don't think that's entirely fair - they have an outside ride feature that allows you to do the TR approved workout using your garmin/wahoo on the open road. And the podcast always used to (I kinda stopped listening after I stopped riding my bike) recommend adding zone 2 outdoor miles as the best volume enhancer.
I had great results from following their low volume plans - my FTP went from 171 with just riding around to 261 over a year and a half of TR and the odd outside ride (both on 20 minute tests). I never had a problem following the plans. But I'm their ideal candidate - time crunched cyclist training 4 hours a week with a fun weekend ride sometimes, and wanting to TT or CX race without embarrassing myself.

I'm pleased that it's worked for you.  But it's important to recognise that you have not followed a TR plan as such: you have approached it intelligently and done something that most TR users would not do, ie use a low volume plan as an input to a broader programme which you have designed to have a better / different balance. 

I do use the 'outside' options for longer rides at weekends and add in some more endurance miles as and when.  Even doing this, I still have had 3 or 4 interval sessions per week.  That is the bit that I have questioned for a while, and that this has highlighted for me: the wisdom of doing more than 2 interval sessions per week. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 February, 2021, 09:25:47 am

I don't think that's entirely fair - they have an outside ride feature that allows you to do the TR approved workout using your garmin/wahoo on the open road. And the podcast always used to (I kinda stopped listening after I stopped riding my bike) recommend adding zone 2 outdoor miles as the best volume enhancer.
I had great results from following their low volume plans - my FTP went from 171 with just riding around to 261 over a year and a half of TR and the odd outside ride (both on 20 minute tests). I never had a problem following the plans. But I'm their ideal candidate - time crunched cyclist training 4 hours a week with a fun weekend ride sometimes, and wanting to TT or CX race without embarrassing myself.

I'm pleased that it's worked for you.  But it's important to recognise that you have not followed a TR plan as such: you have approached it intelligently and done something that most TR users would not do, ie use a low volume plan as an input to a broader programme which you have designed to have a better / different balance. 

I do use the 'outside' options for longer rides at weekends and add in some more endurance miles as and when.  Even doing this, I still have had 3 or 4 interval sessions per week.  That is the bit that I have questioned for a while, and that this has highlighted for me: the wisdom of doing more than 2 interval sessions per week.
I did basically just follow a trainer road plan for the period where I got my fitness gain (actually it was only 8 months). If I look at VeloViewer I can see it - there's a load of chaos, and then suddenly it's just successive months of Tuesday Thursday Sunday (i.e. 3 interval sessions a week). As it hits May, there's some different rides because I was a reserve for a TTT (usually replacing my Sunday TR ride), and then I got injured playing with my daughter and I've been chasing pain free cycling ever since (so not able to properly follow any plan - most of the gym work was around this target).

I came to TR through their podcast, so I accept I have always had a different view of what a TR training plan represents and how you should follow it. I don't know who the average TR user is, and I wonder if the "plan builder" with the introductory questions is more of a hindrance than a help because of the questions it asks. That said, I don't think you can follow any cookie cutter plan blindly, IMO if you don't have a coach then you are your own coach, even if you don't realise it. Maybe some big data AI coach will come along and you can just feed it information and get a plan tailored to you, but I don't think anyone has successfully demonstrated this yet (I believe Xert has elements of it, but I've not tried it).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 17 February, 2021, 09:46:10 am
How do the Zwift or other widely available plans compare?
The Zwift plans are worse. I think they only 'work' because they are better than nothing. They claim to be built by coaches but I'm not a coach and I wouldn't admit they were mine- way too much change for variety's sake and not enough flexibility. DJ hates them (and is right to).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmVZshpLaqs

2 years ago - he's even more of a spotty kid there.

I think the other thing to consider is that most Zwift plans are pretty short term- you're only expected to do them for a month or two. So perhaps the polarisation is in 8 weeks on 2 weeks off. I increasingly think there are a lot of people who just want to be better at Zwift racing.

XERT and SPOKD both claim to be reactive algorithms. I tried SPOKdD and didn't rate it. I have a teammate who uses XERT but I wouldn't say her results have been impressive. There are a load of US teammates who do a kind of 1 size fits all program from 360Velo - it seems to be designed to make you better at Zwifting and I think it does- they've all had steady improvements. They've also been known to say "coach says no racing for me this week" which is not something the Zwift plans ever say. We also have a bunch of women who have coaches. They do better- but that's hardly surprising.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 17 February, 2021, 10:55:58 am
Two interval sessions per week, plus long rides, is what I've been recommended by coaches in the past. 

This is kind of where I settled in 2020. It’s either one or two high intensity intervals turbo sessions a week, at least two but usually three days apart, and the rest low intensity but much longer rides outside. Which day of the week I do the high intensity doesn’t even matter. There are days I prefer but it’s not a big deal if other stuff happens. If the day I planned doesn’t happen I’ll just pick it up the next day and not sweat it.

Interestingly when the last of the 2020 events I was aiming at were cancelled; I cut back to one high intensity session a week.  I found my FTP was still increasing. So I’m not convinced that I actually need that many high intensity sessions per week. One or two seems sufficient. Just make them high quality when I do them. Which means being fresh enough both mentally and physically.

I tend to do three weeks on, one week off.  I don’t worry about individual sessions and just try and ensure I’m remaining consistent and matching the overall pattern.

I’d be hopeless at a TR programme with many days a week of high intensity.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 February, 2021, 11:53:10 am
Graeme Obree wrote a book on training a few years ago in which the recommendation was to do half an hour maximum effort each week and otherwise just ride around slowly. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: morbihan on 17 February, 2021, 12:31:58 pm
A different discipline but thought I would throw this into the mix. I read it a few years ago and it stayed with me. Took me a while to unearth it.

Quote from Paul Rogers, track cycling coach.

11. The one thing we do that most coaches can't cop is this. If you don't make the target times or loads on the first effort or set, you warm down and go home. You aren't fresh enough to train at a level that will make you improve. If you do a PB, you warm down and go home. If you are on fire that much you can blow yourself to pieces in a couple of sets or efforts and it will take weeks to dig you out of the hole you put yourself in, so whatever it is, if you PB, you stop and come back next time. This philosophy takes everyone a while to accept, but it works.
source.
https://hellyervelodrome.com/pdf/train_paulrogers.pdf

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Karla on 17 February, 2021, 02:32:00 pm
Graeme Obree wrote a book on training a few years ago in which the recommendation was to do half an hour maximum effort each week and otherwise just ride around slowly.

Then again, he also commented in his autobio that his maximal sessions really were maximal, because he'd have had to kill himself himself otherwise (or words to that effect).  Personally I'm glad I'm unable to push myself quite that hard.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: basset on 17 February, 2021, 03:12:57 pm
The boy Dylan Johnson is not loving TrainerRoad plans.

https://youtu.be/C0n-nnRbFBs


"The issue is that TrainerRoad simply over prescribes intensity"

I think for many older athletes this is right .
Far to easy to be burnt by the end of ss base 2 especially if you can do a hard ftp test
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 February, 2021, 03:25:58 pm
Graeme Obree wrote a book on training a few years ago in which the recommendation was to do half an hour maximum effort each week and otherwise just ride around slowly.

Then again, he also commented in his autobio that his maximal sessions really were maximal, because he's have had to kill himself himself otherwise (or words to that effect).  Personally I'm glad I'm unable to push myself quite that hard.
Yeah, he basically did a 30 minute test every week where he would be close to being sick at the end of it. He didn't use a HRM or a power meter - he relied on using the same turbo with the same tyre and pressure to ensure that his sessions were comparable. Modern training methods are somewhat different.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 17 February, 2021, 05:11:24 pm
Always worth reminding yourself what you’re trying to improve.  It’s not good boosting your ftp if the event you’re targeting is 12 hours and your 12 hour sustained power has diminished meanwhile as you neglected that side.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 17 February, 2021, 05:23:29 pm
Always worth reminding yourself what you’re trying to improve.  It’s not good boosting your ftp if the event you’re targeting is 12 hours and your 12 hour sustained power has diminished meanwhile as you neglected that side.

TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo (is that Usaian for audax?).  This has been stated multiple times on their podcasts and may even be in publicity blurb (though I can't see it ATM).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 February, 2021, 05:30:56 pm
I think that's somewhat exaggerated - track sprinting is not limited by aerobic power. Their argument is that if you drive your aerobic threshold up, then riding consistently at a set power is riding at a lower percentage of your FTP, and so more manageable, even if you ride for much longer than you typically train for. Again - this makes sense from the perspective of someone who has a limited time to train and is looking for improvement for time spent. If you want to ride long events then you need to work on all the other aspects of that bike ride, not just the raw W part, and they used to talk about this fine tuning stuff (position, fuelling etc) quite a lot on the podcast - generally around some event or other they were attempting (eg Leadville).
Gran Fondo is more like a semi-competitive sportive.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 17 February, 2021, 05:33:30 pm
I understand.  TR certainly make that claim though (mind you, they would say that, wouldn't they  ;)).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 February, 2021, 06:11:05 pm
TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo

I think it is broadly right because riders who are fast in long distance time trials are almost invariably also fast over shorter distances.  However, there is some scope to change the shape of the curve a bit by focusing on a particular segment of it and neglecting another.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 February, 2021, 06:12:57 pm
Graeme Obree wrote a book on training a few years ago in which the recommendation was to do half an hour maximum effort each week and otherwise just ride around slowly.

Then again, he also commented in his autobio that his maximal sessions really were maximal, because he's have had to kill himself himself otherwise (or words to that effect).  Personally I'm glad I'm unable to push myself quite that hard.

Yes, the word 'maximum' was meant to be taken literally!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 17 February, 2021, 07:45:59 pm
TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo

I think it is broadly right because riders who are fast in long distance time trials are almost invariably also fast over shorter distances.  However, there is some scope to change the shape of the curve a bit by focusing on a particular segment of it and neglecting another.

I’m sure they will not have focused on FTP only, and therefore shorter efforts.

My point was that you can focus soley on improving your ftp and indeed succeed in that task. But when it comes to longer durations over many hours , if you’ve neglected that side , you may end up slower.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Karla on 18 February, 2021, 12:43:28 am
TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo

I think it is broadly right because riders who are fast in long distance time trials are almost invariably also fast over shorter distances.  However, there is some scope to change the shape of the curve a bit by focusing on a particular segment of it and neglecting another.

Bear in mind that even a 10 is largely an endurance effort. 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 18 February, 2021, 08:27:32 am
TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo

I think it is broadly right because riders who are fast in long distance time trials are almost invariably also fast over shorter distances.  However, there is some scope to change the shape of the curve a bit by focusing on a particular segment of it and neglecting another.

I’m sure they will not have focused on FTP only, and therefore shorter efforts.

My point was that you can focus soley on improving your ftp and indeed succeed in that task. But when it comes to longer durations over many hours , if you’ve neglected that side , you may end up slower.

Yes, but I think we're saying slightly different things. 

That would be an example of someone's curve having taken a particular shape by deliberately avoiding training for longer events. So yes, I would agree that, if you make a special effort not to be any good at events of more than an hour, you could well achieve that.  So someone who trains for 10s and does lots of VO2 max and intervals, but never rides for over two hours wouldn't be much good over a 24.  And lots of people do that and don't bother with long events (which is why I phrased it the way round that I did - while pretty much everyone who is fast over long events is also fast over short ones, not everyone who is fast over short events is fast over long ones, as most don't do them).

But is such a person not fast over long events because they don't have the fitness, or is it because they don't have the conditioning?  I suspect it is the latter because it is usually relatively easy for someone who is fast over short distances to become fast over long ones just by doing a few longer rides.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 18 February, 2021, 09:07:03 am
The plan I'm currently doing is "3 day stage race". My Zwift Race performance is diminishing- my sprint is poorer and I can't hold my FTP+10% (race climbing pace) as long. This is expected- I'm not training those parts of the curve.

I'd expect it much more that way round than the other- if I were training for shorter efforts, it would have less of a negative effect on longer efforts.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Legs on 18 February, 2021, 09:23:27 am
The plan I'm currently doing is "3 day stage race". My Zwift Race performance is diminishing- my sprint is poorer and I can't hold my FTP+10% (race climbing pace) as long. This is expected- I'm not training those parts of the curve.

One word: Gorby.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 18 February, 2021, 09:26:21 am
I think endurance / fatigue resistance takes longer to fade, but fade it does.  Three years ago I had my highest ftp, and yet I was struggling at the longer distances.  I’d been doing the intervals and neglecting the longer training rides. Reducing the number of high intensity sessions and bringing the longer “training” rides back has done wonders for endurance since.

I think my top end goes relatively quickly but also comes back relatively quickly.  My endurance fades more slowly but takes longer to bring back.

I’m happier with a lower ftp if my endurance / fatigue resistance and resilience over multi hour or day events is better. As for sprint power, it’s none existent, but it’s not important for the rides I like doing.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 18 February, 2021, 09:28:16 am
The plan I'm currently doing is "3 day stage race". My Zwift Race performance is diminishing- my sprint is poorer and I can't hold my FTP+10% (race climbing pace) as long. This is expected- I'm not training those parts of the curve.

One word: Gorby.
Except I don't mind- the thing I actually want to train is longer distance. I'm happy to sacrifice virtual medals for 3 day less-uncomfort on events I really care about.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Legs on 18 February, 2021, 09:32:43 am
In that case, you don't really want anything other than junk miles.  :)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 25 February, 2021, 05:11:04 pm
I think the argument about TR pushing you too hard might be somewhat different in the near future:
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/introducing-adaptive-training-the-right-workout-every-time/

Sounds interesting.  I'd definitely sign up, if I were training.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 25 February, 2021, 05:44:26 pm
Adaptive training is at start of the hype cycle

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Gartner_Hype_Cycle.svg)

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 25 February, 2021, 07:07:36 pm
I think the argument about TR pushing you too hard might be somewhat different in the near future:
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/introducing-adaptive-training-the-right-workout-every-time/

Sounds interesting.  I'd definitely sign up, if I were training.

If you're still on the grandfathered sub then you won't need to sign up.  Existing subs continue at no additional cost.

Purely anecdotal but even with the existing "dumb" plans I'm doing stuff I could only have dreamt of until now.  My FTP is up 40w on pre TR levels and I'm occasionally getting the "magic carpet" effect out on the road.  Whether it will last.... ;D
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 26 February, 2021, 08:46:00 am
I think the argument about TR pushing you too hard might be somewhat different in the near future:
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/introducing-adaptive-training-the-right-workout-every-time/

Sounds interesting.  I'd definitely sign up, if I were training.

If you're still on the grandfathered sub then you won't need to sign up.  Existing subs continue at no additional cost.

Purely anecdotal but even with the existing "dumb" plans I'm doing stuff I could only have dreamt of until now.  My FTP is up 40w on pre TR levels and I'm occasionally getting the "magic carpet" effect out on the road.  Whether it will last.... ;D
The adaptive stuff requires you to ask to join the program. My subscription expired while I was injured - I contacted them saying I didn't want to lose the grandfather, but I didn't know when I would next able to ride, and they said I could resume on my old plan when healthy. Quality customer service.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 February, 2021, 09:53:13 am
Did a ramp test a couple of days ago.  Ftp came out pretty much same as last July at my peak.  So high intensity (getting up to 90-92% max HR) rest low intensity (under 70% max HR) once a week was enough to maintain it all these months.  Planning to restart building on Monday.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 26 February, 2021, 10:08:51 am
The adaptive stuff requires you to ask to join the program. My subscription expired while I was injured - I contacted them saying I didn't want to lose the grandfather, but I didn't know when I would next able to ride, and they said I could resume on my old plan when healthy. Quality customer service.  :thumbsup:

 :thumbsup:

Let's hope that's soon!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 February, 2021, 11:09:28 am
Did a ramp test a couple of days ago.  Ftp came out pretty much same as last July at my peak.  So high intensity (getting up to 90-92% max HR) rest low intensity (under 70% max HR) once a week was enough to maintain it all these months.  Planning to restart building on Monday.

Interesting: polarised training. 

But is maintaining fitness at a steady level a good thing?  I'd understood that:
- we are always either getting fitter or less fit
- we can't continue to get fit for ever or else you burn out.
Hence an off-season fall in fitness is essential in order to enable higher fitness the following season.

EDIT maybe FTP <> fitness, so perhaps its a different point.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 February, 2021, 02:05:35 pm
Did a ramp test a couple of days ago.  Ftp came out pretty much same as last July at my peak.  So high intensity (getting up to 90-92% max HR) rest low intensity (under 70% max HR) once a week was enough to maintain it all these months.  Planning to restart building on Monday.

Interesting: polarised training. 

But is maintaining fitness at a steady level a good thing?  I'd understood that:
- we are always either getting fitter or less fit
- we can't continue to get fit for ever or else you burn out.
Hence an off-season fall in fitness is essential in order to enable higher fitness the following season.

EDIT maybe FTP <> fitness, so perhaps its a different point.

I don’t see why maintaining equilibrium would be an issue. You’re not trying to get fitter for ever and load is actually very sustainable.   I haven’t seen anywhere state you need a fall in fitness to get fitter the next year.  In fact let it fall too far and you’ll spend half your season just trying to get back to where you were. You’re just consolidating your fitness on a plateau for a few months, rather than rolling back down the mountain in your off season. Then next season starting at the bottom of the same mountain again.  Never progressing year on year but just oscillating up and down as the years pass.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 March, 2021, 08:34:04 pm
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bernster on 03 March, 2021, 09:01:49 am
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close

That was an interesting read, thanks for sharing Phil - might go some way to explain why I'm able to FTP test relatively high with a ramp, but that doesn't translate into being able to ride correspondingly quickly at Audax pace for days on end. That said, there's probably not a great deal I can do about it given how limited my training time is, so I'll work on the basis that a mix of sweet spot and Vo2 max sessions are better than nothing.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Davef on 03 March, 2021, 09:17:15 am
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close
On the subject of riding longer distances over lifetime, living longer is also a strategy worth considering

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29293447/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 03 March, 2021, 09:21:43 am
Interesting article. 
CImax sounds a lot like the aerobic threshold, or the point at which you start accumulating lactate. https://endurancebikeandrun.com/blog/2020/2/6/why-is-aerobic-threshold-important
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: L CC on 03 March, 2021, 09:31:58 am
Did a ramp test a couple of days ago.  Ftp came out pretty much same as last July at my peak.  So high intensity (getting up to 90-92% max HR) rest low intensity (under 70% max HR) once a week was enough to maintain it all these months.  Planning to restart building on Monday.

Interesting: polarised training. 

But is maintaining fitness at a steady level a good thing?  I'd understood that:
- we are always either getting fitter or less fit
- we can't continue to get fit for ever or else you burn out.
Hence an off-season fall in fitness is essential in order to enable higher fitness the following season.

EDIT maybe FTP <> fitness, so perhaps its a different point.

Fit =/= strong. You can stay fit forever but you won't increase your strength forever?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 03 March, 2021, 10:17:47 am
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close
On the subject of riding longer distances over lifetime, living longer is also a strategy worth considering

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29293447/

I think that’s more about extending the healthy years rather than overall years.  Though there is extension of the latter towards “genetic potential”
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: morbihan on 08 March, 2021, 05:35:17 pm
I think this fits here..
I'm Riding up hills (virtually) right now for training.
I take notes of the meters of accent/time for a given effort.
Some of the programmes have false flats and varying degrees of pitch, but by and large, the watts put in seems to very closely correlate across the board.
The weight of the rider and a bike is accounted for in the programme.
If I add 10 kilos to my weight for a loaded bike will this likely give a real world scenario on the programme or is it more complicated than that?
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Legs on 08 March, 2021, 06:12:55 pm
I you add 10kg to your weight, your avatar will move more slowly, especially uphill.  Putting out, say, 200w will/should feel like putting out 200w irrespective of your weight or speed.

I can see the point of loading up your panniers with bricks and riding IRL to accustomise yourself to the handling of the bike and align your expectations of speed, but there is zero value of doing so in, say, Zwift.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: giropaul on 09 March, 2021, 11:03:47 am
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close
On the subject of riding longer distances over lifetime, living longer is also a strategy worth considering

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29293447/

I think that’s more about extending the healthy years rather than overall years.  Though there is extension of the latter towards “genetic potential”

I looked into this some time back. It’s difficult to be accurate because, for instance, someone who retires at 55 might train better than they did at 25.
However, the quick take from research would indicate that we lose about 1% or so of power potential for each year over our optimum age ( which obviously varies between individuals). There’s also a reduction in optimal cadence as well.
Don’t ask me to dig through all the mire of research again to justify my comments. I seem to recall that much of it was Australian, and that a lot of the work related to swimmers.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bernster on 24 March, 2021, 02:59:31 pm
Has anyone had a chance to have a look at the new polarised training plans in TrainerRoad (sorry if this has already been discussed)? You have to enable access to them, as they're beta at the moment, rather than fully released, but once you have access, it seems you can use them in the same way as any other plan. Seems there's a 6 week base and an 8 week build at low, medium and high volumes.

To enable access, you need to check a box in Account -> Profile -> Early Access
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 24 March, 2021, 03:45:29 pm
Has anyone had a chance to have a look at the new polarised training plans in TrainerRoad (sorry if this has already been discussed)? You have to enable access to them, as they're beta at the moment, rather than fully released, but once you have access, it seems you can use them in the same way as any other plan. Seems there's a 6 week base and an 8 week build at low, medium and high volumes.

To enable access, you need to check a box in Account -> Profile -> Early Access

As you described.  Anything specific you want to know?

Looking at the 2 mid-volume plans - they differ from SSB and SPB plans in that there are only 4 rides per week (nothing on Wednesday).  Threshold workouts on Tuesday and Saturday and a long (2-3hr) Z1 on Sunday (which I presume most will swap for a road ride and "adaptive training"®  will take account of this). Very little VO2. Total hours per week under 6.5 for both 6 and 8 week mid-volume plans.

Although in theory they may suit audax/distance cyclists, I think I'll stick with the pyramidal plans for the time.  I'm half way through SPB mid volume and it's going well - FTP up to 260 from 220 a few months ago and nailing all workouts including the ones I struggled with in the past at a lower FTP.  Something is working!

My other thought is if I'm going to do a road workout on (e.g.) Sunday, do I really want to stick to Z1 for the whole ride?  Not much fun in that, and I can't really imagine dawdling up hills for the sake of it.

EDIT:  TR have changed the polarised plans overnight.  On both 6 & 8 week plans, regular VO2max sessions have now replaced the threshold ones on Tuesdays.

Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bernster on 24 March, 2021, 04:56:49 pm
As you described.  Anything specific you want to know?

Sorry should have been more specific, I just wanted to see what people's thoughts were on the new plans. I'm considering trying the low volume versions as an alternative to the SSB / Sustained Power Build plans, but am maybe a little concerned that there's not enough time spent at endurance in the low volume plans to be more effective than sweet spot. I will swap the 'long' ride out for something with similar intensity, but longer duration when time permits - it's definitely easier for me to train only 3 times a week, but for longer.

My goals are long distance events / Audax (as well as maintaining general fitness), and I'm basically looking for the best fit plan for this which only involves me getting on the turbo 3 times a week.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 01 March, 2022, 08:23:54 am
Back on the horse, and remembering how bloody hard it is!
First TR ride since 31 May 2020 - Ramp test (I could have skipped it, but don't think I have done enough riding recently to give their tool a chance to guess my FTP).
Could have gone another 30 seconds at the risk of throwing up, so cut it where it is. 204W isn't bad for off the couch. My legs didn't hurt much at all, so I guess they are better than my cardio system.

Will have to see how adaptive training works with my plan.  It generated a strange plan mixing SSB and Build (I think because my A is set to the start of December).
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 March, 2022, 02:10:17 pm
I did a trainer ride on Thursday, and my hip started hurting, so I quit after 45 minutes or so.
Sunday I went outside and tried to do an under/over ride. That was a waste of time, because the wind and gradients make such a difference to whether you are doing 190 or 210 (well, more like 150 or 280!)

So on 2 Sundays in a row, I've done 1.25 hour rides with an np of over my FTP.  That probably says something, both about my FTP and also possibly about my turbo. It's a wheel-on smart trainer, and it's noticeably staccato, which makes it more work than riding outside (I guess it doesn't have that big a flywheel). Is that still a thing with the wheel-off trainers?
 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 07 March, 2022, 02:51:58 pm
What trainer are you using?  My Kickr has a decent size flywheel and there's no stuttering - it's just a permanent drag  ;D  Good that you're back at it though  :thumbsup:

Since you sending me a trial code I've been doing TR on and off for 2 years now.  At the moment I've just finished 3 months of base training and have started a medium volume build phase (aimed at gran fondo).  A lot of VO2 Max stuff which surprisingly I'm able to handle, but a a couple of threshold sessions I just couldn't finish.  If I bail early I make up the time with an endurance ride tagged on.

The adaptive training thing seems to work well.  After every session it estimates if your plan could/should be amended based on your performance and feedback.  You can chose to accept or reject the suggested modifications.

As you say, no need for ramp tests every few weeks any more (once you've done 2 weeks of workouts anyway).  I tried the auto-detection last week then did a ramp test anyway to compare.  They were within 1 watt of each other!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 07 March, 2022, 07:21:27 pm
I'm using a Tacx Bushido Smart. I definitely need to inflate the tyre more, but I don't know if that will be sufficient to stop feeling like it's a bit push push push...
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 March, 2022, 07:24:27 pm
I have the Bushido Smart (the one that doesn’t need plugging in).  Do you use it in ERG or slope mode? I find it much smoother in slope mode and you don’t get that spiral of death if your cadence drops too much.  Do you also calibrate it when you put the bike on it? 
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 08 March, 2022, 07:26:16 pm
I run it in erg mode and powermatch with my P1 Pedals, so I calibrate the pedals not the trainer.
I pumped up the back tyre before riding this morning, and that made things a lot better. I think it was flexing too much.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 12 April, 2022, 08:32:23 am
After SSB1 I got a nice FTP bump from 204 to 219 on the AI FTP Detection. :)
It's scheduled me into Short Power build now, so lots of VO2 Max intervals at the new FTP.  :-\
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 12 April, 2022, 02:04:26 pm
That was loads better than I was expecting. :) I guess VO2 probably suits the way I ride outdoors better than the low variability of sweetspot (might also suit my "athletic" background better too).
Watch me eat my words in a few weeks! ;)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 12 April, 2022, 02:12:28 pm
Yes.  I'm happier with VO2 than threshold or over-under workouts.  Limiting the pain at 5-6 minutes per interval, even if at a higher intensity, is psychologically more manageable for me. My road rides include a fair amount of Z3&4 stuff mixed in anyway.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 17 November, 2022, 12:07:57 pm
My training has been utterly mixed up, and after injury I did a number of boring endurance rides. Today I did a VO2, which was fine, got off and said "I missed VO2 workouts". And now I've come here, to discover I said the same thing in April!
(Coincidentally my FTP is back down to 219 as well - it got to 239 in the summer before I tweaked my hip)
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: toontra on 02 January, 2023, 03:07:17 pm
Are people still TrainerRoad'ing here?  I stopped in the summer and have been using Rouvy instead for the past couple of months.  It's not structured training but it's more fun than TR and I still get some decent workouts.

Debating whether to restart TR.  After a solid 6 months of medium volume plans last winter/spring my FTP rose, but when I started endurance events I found this actually didn't make much difference to times, particularly after the first 50 miles or so, when comparing to the same events in previous years.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: DuncanM on 05 January, 2023, 08:06:24 am
If my hip works then I use TR, but because that's been an issue for quite some time and flares up for unknown reasons, I find it hard to get motivated to put in the work. I like the adaptive training stuff though, so assuming I can cycle I'll continue using TR.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Bernster on 05 January, 2023, 09:03:28 am
Also still using TR and enjoying it (in as much as you can enjoy suffering - it's a means to an end). Did my first ramp test for some time, and unsurprisingly am way down on where I was in September after several viruses and Christmas excesses, but feel much better now it's out the way and I can hopefully start moving the needle in the right direction.

Am interested to see how well their new AI FTP detection feature works.
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 05 January, 2023, 03:04:04 pm
I have had a Zwift and trainerroad subscription for many years, probably 10+.  When i felt good I would use the turbo and also on bad winters would do 100+mile rides.  However I have little moral fibre and was prone to getting off on a bad day rather than pushing through or dialling back and achieving.  My netflix subscription was mainly started to give me something to watch while training.

Anyway my wife decided to start running, developed knee pain and has early OA.  But she can ride a bike.  however we do not have room for 2 turbos and frankly she would not cope with the glitchiness of Zwift sometimes not reconnecting and certainly not with having to start up a computer/appletv,etc for Zwift and another for netflix.  She is well known for turning on a BSOD simply by touching the computer!

So after some research I bought a Peloton +bike.  One week later I sold my turbo, and attached frame and cancelled my Zwift and trainerroad subscriptions.

There are superb training programs built in and an active group sharing training programs.  The trainers are motivating and some (Christine D'Ercole) of a very high standard of cycling.

I am amazed at how frequently the comments about continiuing come at EXACTLY the point I am finding it difficult.  All rides have formal warmup sessions and then a cool down with further cool down and stretch options.

We both have individual accounts on the bike for one monthly fee and access to all the stretch and strength classes on the floor.

changing position from my wife's settings to mine takes about 30 seconds and the software is superb.

Monthly cost is neutral or a slight saving and the initial cost is no more  than a wattbike or wahoo bike without all the extras.

To my very great surprise I have turned into a complete peloton fanboy and my wife has done more exercise with more pleasure in the last 3 months than ever before and is now planning a formal structured training program!
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: Lightning Phil on 05 January, 2023, 04:37:12 pm
I’ve been using Athletica AI, which works great where you mix indoor and outdoors and not just indoor focused. Works with heart rate, power, or both.

https://athletica.ai/
Title: Re: Base training
Post by: paton on 09 September, 2023, 09:10:03 am
Some thoughts from Jumbo Visma head of performance Mathieu Heijboer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SHoSSziD0s