Post by: The Family Cyclist on 19 May, 2018, 04:29:52 pm
As I've said in utilitarian adventures had a trip into Chelmsford today. House to centre for me is about 13km although I took a scenic route so was more like 20. Having worked in Chelmsford twice I've tended to use the roads as they're probably slightly more direct. Today is wasn't in any rush and fancied a bit of an explore so thought I'll use the cycle paths. I've always used part as it avoids using a roundabout which is fed by and feeds the A12 and lane discipline is lax. This bit is probably the worst maintained bit.
However as I got further in the paths are reasonably direct (apart from a brief detour across a business park) signposted and decent condition. I got to decathlon in pretty much the same time from edge of town as would of if driving... maybe not today but did seem a bit quieter due to the wedding.
Last time I went we then proceeded to the main shops rather then a semi out of town estate. Wife and kids walked the 5 minutes. I met them an hour later about to have a heart attack as had taken me that long to park. No such worried today. I really believe if all cycle paths were like that rather then a bit of paint and stopping and starting every hundred yards then they would encourage less confident people onto their bikes. Just need to sort connecting local towns to the cities via safe routes.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 May, 2018, 11:14:36 am
Welcome to the Netherlands, please ride on the right.
J
Post by: frankly frankie on 20 May, 2018, 02:55:41 pm
Post by: Jakob W on 20 May, 2018, 05:33:26 pm
Most UK cycle infrastructure is of course mediocre at best, but if built to Dutch standards it's really no hardship. Until it's as ubiquitous as in NL (where rural lanes are shared use anyhow), I don't see compulsion being anywhere near viable; so not something we need worry about until, ooh, 2040?
Post by: mattc on 20 May, 2018, 06:58:15 pm
If they're done properly, they don't feel like a ghetto.
Sadly in the UK they rarely ever are ...
[/mediation]
Post by: Phil W on 20 May, 2018, 07:18:40 pm
What is the surface type?
Is it clear of debris?
Do it go somewhere useful?
Is it signed?
Do the signs give you useful destinations if not local?
Do the signs run out just when you need them?
Does it throw you out into the road at about the worst point?
Is it full of barriers?
Does it connect with any other useful cycling infrastructure?
Does it weave like a meandering river when there is a perfectly quiet direct road to use?
Until there are some useful defined standards for them, and councils are held to those standards; it is a bit of a lottery as to what you will get. Whilst it is a lottery they will see far less use.
Post by: Kim on 20 May, 2018, 09:53:51 pm
The challenge with cycle lanes is you never quite know what you are going to get.
Exactly. Major tourist routes aside, this renders them useless outside the local area you're familiar with, because a random cycle lane/path is most likely to be a trap.
OTOH, I suspect that cyclists venturing far from home are a minority.
Post by: ian on 21 May, 2018, 07:55:17 am
I honestly don't get the 'ghetto' thing. Do people genuinely enjoy mixing up their cycling with aggressively driver powerful cares and distracted drivers of large articulated lorries? I must be odd, I'd rather scoot along a cycle lane and not have to worry about being randomly being driven over or the next roundabout of hell. Or possibly I'm not that odd and this is why no one in the UK cycles.
Post by: madcow on 21 May, 2018, 08:33:36 am
Part of it is due to the national attitude to cycling -ie it's for folks who can't afford a car.
One of the first semi-decent bike paths in York used the redundant trackbed of the east coast railway line. When it was first opened only a few cyclists used it. Sustrans had the vision to create something almost revolutioanary in the area. That single piece of work was the foundation for a network of cycle paths in York.
BUT, its not just the path itself and cycling. It offers many people a chance to get out into countryside and get near the River Ouse so there are attractions beyond cycling attached to it. The Beryl Burton Greenway around Harrogate is probably used by more dogwalkers than cyclists,so maybe we should stop calling them cycle paths and start calling them public access/recreation routes.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 May, 2018, 09:42:09 am
JF, you title the thread "In praise of cycle lanes" but then extol the virtues of cycle paths . Urban or semi urban cycle paths are a useful means of getting from A to B on a bike. Nobody should be able to find fault with the concept . its just the execution and then the uptake that is below par in the U.K.
Part of it is due to the national attitude to cycling -ie it's for folks who can't afford a car.
Really? I always felt it was the opposite. Sustrans has built a lovely network of cycle routes that are wonderful if you ride an upwrong, and want to take the kids on a bike ride on a sunny Sunday afternoon. *BUT* if you want to actually use them for transport. With a few minor exceptions, they just aren't suitable. Half the time they represent the longest route between two points (pick a journey planner of choice, and try plotting a route from Canterbury to Sandwich that actually follows Route 1 the whole way), or they are under water for several months of the year, or not cleared of ice in winter...
And of course if your bike is anything other than a light weight upwrong, you're going to struggle to take it on many of the cycle ways sustrans has built.
Conversely, recently .NL opened a cycle route from Arnhem to Nijmegen (or is it from Nijmegen to Arnhem?) it's like it was built by romans. You can get on the path with a 3 wheeled bakfiets, with a trailer on the back. You may share the path with Snorfiets, you may share it with weird car things that are limited to 40kph. But by and large you're going to be sharing it with Omafiets. Often ridden by Oma or Opa.
This makes me think I really should turn on my camera and record my ride to work...
Quote
One of the first semi-decent bike paths in York used the redundant trackbed of the east coast railway line. When it was first opened only a few cyclists used it. Sustrans had the vision to create something almost revolutioanary in the area. That single piece of work was the foundation for a network of cycle paths in York.
BUT, its not just the path itself and cycling. It offers many people a chance to get out into countryside and get near the River Ouse so there are attractions beyond cycling attached to it. The Beryl Burton Greenway around Harrogate is probably used by more dogwalkers than cyclists,so maybe we should stop calling them cycle paths and start calling them public access/recreation routes.
If the cycle path doesn't go from where people are to where they want to go, it's about as much use as transport, as Silverstone is for car transport...
J
Post by: mattc on 21 May, 2018, 09:49:24 am
I honestly don't get the 'ghetto' thing. Do people genuinely enjoy mixing up their cycling with aggressively driver powerful cares and distracted drivers of large articulated lorries? I must be odd, I'd rather scoot along a cycle lane and not have to worry about being randomly being driven over or the next roundabout of hell. Or possibly I'm not that odd and this is why no one in the UK cycles.Well, amongst many answers to that:
- Cycling on UK *ROADS* is a very safe activity*. So it's not really worth worrying about the threats you mention once you've decided to ride a bike.
- Almost all car/bike/lorry collisions are at junctions. Sadly the vast majority of UK cycle lanes/paths don't actually get you round the junctions/roundabouts safely.
Perhaps I've misunderstood you, and your post was entirely about dutch infrastructure and the 7.24km of decent safe UK infrastructure.
*Compared to travelling by any means. Or in fact life in general.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 May, 2018, 09:52:09 am
Perhaps I've misunderstood you, and your post was entirely about dutch infrastructure and the 7.24km of decent safe UK infrastructure.
7.24km? In one stretch, or evenly spread across the country?
J
Post by: mattc on 21 May, 2018, 10:19:15 am
The latter, I believe.Perhaps I've misunderstood you, and your post was entirely about dutch infrastructure and the 7.24km of decent safe UK infrastructure.
7.24km? In one stretch, or evenly spread across the country?
J
(and it may include the Channel Islands. My memory's not great ... )
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 May, 2018, 10:33:49 am
7.24km? In one stretch, or evenly spread across the country?
The latter, I believe.
(and it may include the Channel Islands. My memory's not great ... )
That explains why I keep finding 5m cycle lanes all over the place going from nowhere to who cares...
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 May, 2018, 12:04:00 pm
And of course if your bike is anything other than a light weight upwrong, you're going to struggle to take it on many of the cycle ways sustrans has built.Apart from the ones where you need a mountain bike and corresponding downhill skills, or a BMX and hoppity skills.
Post by: Kim on 21 May, 2018, 01:51:17 pm
JF, you title the thread "In praise of cycle lanes" but then extol the virtues of cycle paths .
This is true. I think we're all guilty of muddling up the terminology from time to time, but there's a very clear difference:
Cycle lanes are for parking your car
Cyale paths are for emptying your dog
Post by: yorkie on 21 May, 2018, 01:51:48 pm
It's not known as the National Cyclecross Network for nothing, you know.And of course if your bike is anything other than a light weight upwrong, you're going to struggle to take it on many of the cycle ways sustrans has built.Apart from the ones where you need a mountain bike and corresponding downhill skills, or a BMX and hoppity skills.
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 21 May, 2018, 07:36:29 pm
I totally agree that mostly they fail in either directness, maintenance or ability to travel at reasonable speed safely which is why the paths I used on Saturday were note worthy. In the town where I live we have one good one that runs pretty much from one side to the other. It would be awesome if this was the central spine of a twin wide cycling infrastructure but sadly it isn't. One of the two senior schools is directly off it. Thinking about it four of the primary schools can be reached from it using cycle paths but have stretches of road, busy crossings or paths that have to be used.
Actually writing this made me realise with a few crossings installing and a bit ( sorry) of shared use path a lot of the schools could be made very accessible.
Post by: Kim on 21 May, 2018, 07:54:02 pm
Actually writing this made me realise with a few crossings installing and a bit ( sorry) of shared use path a lot of the schools could be made very accessible.
In many ways I think this sort of thing is an easier target than the radial commuter cyclists that tend to get most of the noise.
Post by: frankly frankie on 22 May, 2018, 09:14:51 am
I loathe cycle facilities, the ghetto mentality.
I take it you insist on walking in the road rather than on the pavement?
Most UK cycle infrastructure is of course mediocre at best, but if built to Dutch standards it's really no hardship. Until it's as ubiquitous as in NL (where rural lanes are shared use anyhow), I don't see compulsion being anywhere near viable; so not something we need worry about until, ooh, 2040?
If I did walk in the road, the other faster road users still have a duty to avoid mowing me down. It's the same on a bike.
I have cycled in Holland, and hated it (not Holland of course, but the extra faff and kilometerage involved in getting from A to B on the cycle facilities). A better example IMO is Switzerland, where the cycle network is just superbly done, and although using the paths isn't usually compulsory, they are so good that they often do genuinely feel like the better option, even to me.
But even in Switzerland this is still inevitable:
Does it throw you out into the road at about the worst point?
Post by: ian on 22 May, 2018, 09:49:51 am
If I did walk in the road, the other faster road users still have a duty to avoid mowing me down. It's the same on a bike.
It's not just about not being mown down. The majority of people simply don't want to mixed up with vehicles doing a multiple of their speed, more so when those vehicles are many multiples of their size and weight. I suspect most drivers would avoid running me down, but I have no wish to regularly walk up and down the local high street on this basis. There's always going to be concessions, drivers have to make them every time they stop at a traffic light, pedestrians every time they wait to cross a road. I don't see why cyclists shouldn't make concessions. I'm sorry if that means some cyclists can't zip from A to B as fast as their legs can carry them.
Frankly, I'd just much prefer to use my bike without the inevitable close passes and aggressive motorists, and being buffeted by passing lorries, with the hope that no one in a large high powered vehicle doesn't take exception to me or have one those signature 'brief lapses of attention.' I don't think I'm unusual in that.
Post by: tonyh on 22 May, 2018, 10:05:32 am
Couple of thoughts: being on the road in a car is dangerous too, for similar reasons.
and
Many people on bikes seem to presume that the pavement (even when not "dual use") is the only proper place to be...
...and that encourages people in cars to presume that bikes Should Not Be On The Road;
which makes both pavements and roadways more dangerous (for everybody) than they need to be, and only likely to both become yet more dangerous.
Post by: JennyB on 22 May, 2018, 11:02:12 am
It's not just about not being mown down. The majority of people simply don't want to mixed up with vehicles doing a multiple of their speed, more so when those vehicles are many multiples of their size and weight.
This. No one copes well with traffic going more than twice as fast, or twice as slow. Which is why cyclists in a hurry shouldn't be on footpaths, and why slow vehicles are banned from motorways. The trick is to make adequate provision for the slowest and least costly mode first, and then to provide faster modes if needed in ways that interfere least,
Post by: lahoski on 22 May, 2018, 12:21:57 pm
Many people on bikes seem to presume that the pavement (even when not "dual use") is the only proper place to be...I don't disagree with most of this, but does this mean that people should cycle on the road, even if they don't feel comfortable doing so?
...and that encourages people in cars to presume that bikes Should Not Be On The Road;
which makes both pavements and roadways more dangerous (for everyboby) than they need to be, and only likely to both become yet more dangerous.
There's clear, albeit limited, evidence that the majority cyclist-pedestrian interactions are amicable and cause little or no inconvenience to the more vulnerable users. So I'm not sure I agree that pavement cycling is a particular cause for concern. I'd actually much rather people cycled on the pavement than didn't cycle at all.
If there's a shed load of people cycling on the pavements because the roads are too shite, at least it'd provide some evidence that some kind of cycling facilities are required.
With regards to praise of cycle paths/lanes, I had a lovely ride to and from Didcot Parkway, and again from Reading to the very splendid and worthwhile Siren Tap Yard on Saturday. It mostly consisted of an off-road cycle path for the first leg, and a reasonably wide on-road cycle lane for the second. The sun was shining and I was mostly separate from what little traffic there was (gaw' bless the royal family and those sportsball players [only joking]). It was absolutely fabulous and ultimately meant I could have a genuinely relaxing Saturday AND earn the copious amounts of beer I drank.
Post by: mattc on 22 May, 2018, 12:40:54 pm
There's always going to be concessions, drivers have to make them every time they stop at a traffic light, pedestrians every time they wait to cross a road. I don't see why cyclists shouldn't make concessions. I'm sorry if that means some cyclists can't zip from A to B as fast as their legs can carry them.Yes, of course we should make concessions. Where should I start... perhaps drivers would like their own roads, heck perhaps my taxes could be spent on that:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/biggest-upgrade-to-roads-in-a-generation
...
This includes £1.5 billion of investment to add an extra lane onto key motorways to turn them into smart motorways, boosting connectivity between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Yorkshire.
...
etc ...
Post by: ian on 22 May, 2018, 12:44:18 pm
Post by: ScumOfTheRoad on 22 May, 2018, 01:09:51 pm
In the Netherlands I can confirm that following snowfall this winter, the bicycle paths were cleared of snow in the wee small hours.
I ventured out at around 7am one weekend when there had been a snowfall, and the cycle paths were all cleared by what I think are the little service vehicles which the local council uses on the paths.
The interesting thing is that the cycle paths were all cleared, before the roads were touched!
And this was no haphazard badly done job - all cleared of snow and ready to ride on.
One other thing which stops cycle paths being ghettoes is priority at side roads and around roundabouts.
Dutch drivers are trained to look out for cyclists during their lessons, and are cyclcist anyway. The cycle paths continue straight across side roads, where the 'Give Way' lines are set back.
Cars will awlays wait on the main road as you cycle across a side road. Try that in the UK - instant SMIDSY
Also on roundabouts, you might go round the roundabout on a separate lane, but once on there you are judged to be part of the traffic. So you just sail pn and expect the cars entering the roundabout to give way, which they do. Again try that in the UK...
Post by: Pingu on 22 May, 2018, 06:01:56 pm
Post by: Manotea on 22 May, 2018, 06:33:21 pm
My instinctive reaction was that they were trying to lure me out into the middle of the road so they could mow me down...
Switzerland had similer cyclepaths but the Swiss drivers seemed to rather ignore cyclists, i.e., pretended I was not present and occupying a piece of road space. Not impressed...
Post by: Robh on 22 May, 2018, 06:45:24 pm
(http://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/images/News/CyclistsDismount_ElliottBrown1.jpg?itok=UkuYDRjC) (http://road.cc/)Quite. I have yet to see sign that reads 'Motorists get out and push'.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 May, 2018, 10:10:36 am
One other thing which stops cycle paths being ghettoes is priority at side roads and around roundabouts.It does work in a few places, for instance here in the suburbs of N. Bristol:
Dutch drivers are trained to look out for cyclists during their lessons, and are cyclcist anyway. The cycle paths continue straight across side roads, where the 'Give Way' lines are set back.
Cars will awlays wait on the main road as you cycle across a side road. Try that in the UK - instant SMIDSY
https://goo.gl/maps/ctWLzrMtWYJ2
But it would certainly help if it was a general principle rather than an occasional solution. Also, if cycle lanes had proper traffic lights that you can see from a distance and that change as you approach, rather than having to press a button and squint sideways to look at a little light mounted perpendicularly to your direction of approach.
Post by: DuncanM on 23 May, 2018, 10:49:50 am
Sadly, even somewhere as bike friendly as Oxford, while there are a number of really good ones, they tend to end where the road layout means that cars would be inconvenienced, meaning you get dumped into the traffic at just the time when you need the most help. For example - we could get halfway to my daughter's school (or indeed to my wife's school) using the paths and a couple of quiet roads, but then we would have to ride a mile or so on super busy road with no cycle provision beyond some faded paint. An integrated system, with common journeys catered for from start to end would make a massive difference for inexperienced cyclists. Hell, I would even use them if they had priority over crossing vehicular traffic (repeated braking and accelerating means that for me riding the road is just so much less hassle). Sadly, improvements seem to take for ever and cost a fortune, so the chances of such a useful network existing are vanishingly small. :(
Post by: ian on 23 May, 2018, 12:58:14 pm
So they purport the myth of 'shared priority' with is bollocks, of course and means motor vehicles always end up with priority. So even the most perfect cycle lane will eventually end in snarling junction or a 'cyclist dismount' sign. People aren't going to cycle unless they can from A to B in perceived safety and comfort. This of course simply wastes money on facilities that are ultimately unusable.
I think, tbh, none of this should be about cycling. It needs a holistic view – the benefits to everyone of moving away from car-centric towns. It happened in the Netherlands because they got tired of scraping their kids off the road. In Britain, it seems, most parents are OK to lose the occasional child provided they can still drive to Tesco.
Post by: mattc on 23 May, 2018, 01:09:57 pm
There is a bike-path along the B4017 south of Abingdon. It's not great, but it's slightly more pleasant than the road if you're not in a hurry. You get massive grief from drivers if you do ride on the road*. So last year they built some new houses - you can see them in progress on the sat pic below. Can you guess how they "shared priority" where drivers cross the cycle lane to get onto the main road?
[sorry, no prizes]
https://goo.gl/maps/SfsrXztWAQD2
*I took great pleasure riding down there to the tip with my trailer once O:-)
Post by: Kim on 23 May, 2018, 01:12:44 pm
Can you guess how they "shared priority" where drivers cross the cycle lane to get onto the main road?
I'm guessing something in blue...
Post by: lahoski on 23 May, 2018, 03:49:46 pm
"shared priority"? Yep.
There is a bike-path along the B4017 south of Abingdon. It's not great, but it's slightly more pleasant than the road if you're not in a hurry. You get massive grief from drivers if you do ride on the road*. So last year they built some new houses - you can see them in progress on the sat pic below. Can you guess how they "shared priority" where drivers cross the cycle lane to get onto the main road?
[sorry, no prizes]
https://goo.gl/maps/SfsrXztWAQD2
*I took great pleasure riding down there to the tip with my trailer once O:-)
The best bit was the bus shelter that appeared about a year ago, almost entirely blocking the shared use path. I think it lasted less than a week before they removed it again.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 May, 2018, 06:34:31 pm
Post by: ian on 23 May, 2018, 06:42:27 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 May, 2018, 06:44:52 pm
Post by: ian on 23 May, 2018, 06:50:00 pm
Post by: frankly frankie on 24 May, 2018, 10:55:26 am
The only winners are those watching on from one of the many pavement cafes. If Poynton is supposed to be a test case for some Utopian ideal, it's a dismal failure, unless Utopia involves sitting in the sun drinking coffee all day.
Post by: giropaul on 05 June, 2018, 08:24:31 pm