Author Topic: In praise of cycle lanes?  (Read 5711 times)

In praise of cycle lanes?
« on: 19 May, 2018, 04:29:52 pm »
On my ride today I was having a muse. I'll start this with a caveat, a cavier and if needed a crevice that I fully believe that cyclists have the right to use the road safely.

As I've said in utilitarian adventures had a trip into Chelmsford today. House to centre for me is about 13km although I took a scenic route so was more like 20. Having worked in Chelmsford twice I've tended to use the roads as they're probably slightly more direct. Today is wasn't in any rush and fancied a bit of an explore so thought I'll use the cycle paths. I've always used part as it avoids using a roundabout which is fed by and feeds the A12 and lane discipline is lax. This bit is probably the worst maintained bit.

However as I got further in the paths are reasonably direct (apart from a brief detour across a business park) signposted and decent condition. I got to decathlon in pretty much the same time from edge of town as would of if driving... maybe not today but did seem a bit quieter due to the wedding.

Last time I went we then proceeded to the main shops rather then a semi out of town estate. Wife and kids walked the 5 minutes. I met them an hour later about to have a heart attack as had taken me that long to park. No such worried today. I really believe if all cycle paths were like that rather then a bit of paint and stopping and starting every hundred yards then they would encourage less confident people onto their bikes. Just need to sort connecting local towns to the cities via safe routes.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #1 on: 20 May, 2018, 11:14:36 am »

Welcome to the Netherlands, please ride on the right.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #2 on: 20 May, 2018, 02:55:41 pm »
I loathe cycle facilities, the ghetto mentality.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #3 on: 20 May, 2018, 05:33:26 pm »
I take it you insist on walking in the road rather than on the pavement?

Most UK cycle infrastructure is of course mediocre at best, but if built to Dutch standards it's really no hardship. Until it's as ubiquitous as in NL (where rural lanes are shared use anyhow), I don't see compulsion being anywhere near viable; so not something we need worry about until, ooh, 2040?

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #4 on: 20 May, 2018, 06:58:15 pm »
[mediation]
If they're done properly, they don't feel like a ghetto.

Sadly in the UK they rarely ever are ...
[/mediation]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Phil W

Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #5 on: 20 May, 2018, 07:18:40 pm »
The challenge with cycle lanes is you never quite know what you are going to get.

What is the surface type?
Is it clear of debris?
Do it go somewhere useful?
Is it signed?
Do the signs give you useful destinations if not local?
Do the signs run out just when you need them?
Does it throw you out into the road at about the worst point?
Is it full of barriers?
Does it connect with any other useful cycling infrastructure?
Does it weave like a meandering river when there is a perfectly quiet direct road to use?

Until there are some useful defined standards for them, and councils are held to those standards; it is a bit of a lottery as to what you will get.  Whilst it is a lottery they will see far less use.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #6 on: 20 May, 2018, 09:53:51 pm »
The challenge with cycle lanes is you never quite know what you are going to get.

Exactly.  Major tourist routes aside, this renders them useless outside the local area you're familiar with, because a random cycle lane/path is most likely to be a trap.

OTOH, I suspect that cyclists venturing far from home are a minority.

ian

Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #7 on: 21 May, 2018, 07:55:17 am »
It's a very British attitude that cycle paths must be shit and that we tolerate this. I sometimes think we prefer to moan rather than insist we do it properly.

I honestly don't get the 'ghetto' thing. Do people genuinely enjoy mixing up their cycling with aggressively driver powerful cares and distracted drivers of large articulated lorries? I must be odd, I'd rather scoot along a cycle lane and not have to worry about being randomly being driven over or the next roundabout of hell. Or possibly I'm not that odd and this is why no one in the UK cycles.

Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #8 on: 21 May, 2018, 08:33:36 am »
JF, you title the thread "In praise of cycle lanes" but then extol the virtues of cycle paths . Urban or semi urban cycle paths are a useful means of getting from A to B on a bike. Nobody should be able to find fault with the concept . its just the execution and then the uptake that is below par in the U.K.
Part of it is due to the national attitude to cycling -ie it's for folks who can't afford a car.
One of the first semi-decent bike paths in York used the redundant trackbed of the east coast railway line. When it was first opened only a few cyclists used it. Sustrans had the vision to create something almost revolutioanary in the area. That single piece of work was the foundation for a network of cycle paths in York.
BUT, its not just the path itself and cycling. It offers many people a chance to get out into countryside and get near the River Ouse so there are attractions beyond cycling attached to it. The Beryl Burton Greenway around Harrogate is probably used by more dogwalkers than cyclists,so maybe we should stop calling them cycle paths and start calling them public access/recreation  routes.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #9 on: 21 May, 2018, 09:42:09 am »
JF, you title the thread "In praise of cycle lanes" but then extol the virtues of cycle paths . Urban or semi urban cycle paths are a useful means of getting from A to B on a bike. Nobody should be able to find fault with the concept . its just the execution and then the uptake that is below par in the U.K.
Part of it is due to the national attitude to cycling -ie it's for folks who can't afford a car.

Really? I always felt it was the opposite. Sustrans has built a lovely network of cycle routes that are wonderful if you ride an upwrong, and want to take the kids on a bike ride on a sunny Sunday afternoon. *BUT* if you want to actually use them for transport. With a few minor exceptions, they just aren't suitable. Half the time they represent the longest route between two points (pick a journey planner of choice, and try plotting a route from Canterbury to Sandwich that actually follows Route 1 the whole way), or they are under water for several months of the year, or not cleared of ice in winter...

And of course if your bike is anything other than a light weight upwrong, you're going to struggle to take it on many of the cycle ways sustrans has built.

Conversely, recently .NL opened a cycle route from Arnhem to Nijmegen (or is it from Nijmegen to Arnhem?) it's like it was built by romans. You can get on the path with a 3 wheeled bakfiets, with a trailer on the back. You may share the path with Snorfiets, you may share it with weird car things that are limited to 40kph. But by and large you're going to be sharing it with Omafiets. Often ridden by Oma or Opa.

This makes me think I really should turn on my camera and record my ride to work...

Quote
One of the first semi-decent bike paths in York used the redundant trackbed of the east coast railway line. When it was first opened only a few cyclists used it. Sustrans had the vision to create something almost revolutioanary in the area. That single piece of work was the foundation for a network of cycle paths in York.
BUT, its not just the path itself and cycling. It offers many people a chance to get out into countryside and get near the River Ouse so there are attractions beyond cycling attached to it. The Beryl Burton Greenway around Harrogate is probably used by more dogwalkers than cyclists,so maybe we should stop calling them cycle paths and start calling them public access/recreation  routes.

If the cycle path doesn't go from where people are to where they want to go, it's about as much use as transport, as Silverstone is for car transport...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #10 on: 21 May, 2018, 09:49:24 am »
I honestly don't get the 'ghetto' thing. Do people genuinely enjoy mixing up their cycling with aggressively driver powerful cares and distracted drivers of large articulated lorries? I must be odd, I'd rather scoot along a cycle lane and not have to worry about being randomly being driven over or the next roundabout of hell. Or possibly I'm not that odd and this is why no one in the UK cycles.
Well, amongst many answers to that:

- Cycling on UK *ROADS* is a very safe activity*. So it's not really worth worrying about the threats you mention once you've decided to ride a bike.
- Almost all car/bike/lorry collisions are at junctions. Sadly the vast majority of UK cycle lanes/paths don't actually get you round the junctions/roundabouts safely.

Perhaps I've misunderstood you, and your post was entirely about dutch infrastructure and the 7.24km of decent safe UK infrastructure.

*Compared to travelling by any means. Or in fact life in general.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #11 on: 21 May, 2018, 09:52:09 am »
Perhaps I've misunderstood you, and your post was entirely about dutch infrastructure and the 7.24km of decent safe UK infrastructure.

7.24km? In one stretch, or evenly spread across the country?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #12 on: 21 May, 2018, 10:19:15 am »
Perhaps I've misunderstood you, and your post was entirely about dutch infrastructure and the 7.24km of decent safe UK infrastructure.

7.24km? In one stretch, or evenly spread across the country?

J
The latter, I believe.

(and it may include the Channel Islands. My memory's not great ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #13 on: 21 May, 2018, 10:33:49 am »
7.24km? In one stretch, or evenly spread across the country?
The latter, I believe.

(and it may include the Channel Islands. My memory's not great ... )

That explains why I keep finding 5m cycle lanes all over the place going from nowhere to who cares...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #14 on: 21 May, 2018, 12:04:00 pm »
And of course if your bike is anything other than a light weight upwrong, you're going to struggle to take it on many of the cycle ways sustrans has built.
Apart from the ones where you need a mountain bike and corresponding downhill skills, or a BMX and hoppity skills.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #15 on: 21 May, 2018, 01:51:17 pm »
JF, you title the thread "In praise of cycle lanes" but then extol the virtues of cycle paths .

This is true.  I think we're all guilty of muddling up the terminology from time to time, but there's a very clear difference:

Cycle lanes are for parking your car
Cyale paths are for emptying your dog

yorkie

  • On top of the Galibier
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #16 on: 21 May, 2018, 01:51:48 pm »
And of course if your bike is anything other than a light weight upwrong, you're going to struggle to take it on many of the cycle ways sustrans has built.
Apart from the ones where you need a mountain bike and corresponding downhill skills, or a BMX and hoppity skills.
It's not known as the National Cyclecross Network for nothing, you know.
Born to ride my bike, forced to work! ;)

British Cycling Regional A Track Commissaire
British Cycling Regional A Circuit Commissaire
Cycling Attendant, York Sport Village Cycle Circuit and Velodrome

Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #17 on: 21 May, 2018, 07:36:29 pm »
Me fail English - that's umpossible to quote Ralph Wiggum. I certainly meant cycle paths.

I totally agree that mostly they fail in either directness, maintenance or ability to travel at reasonable speed safely which is why the paths I used on Saturday were note worthy. In the town where I live we have one good one that runs pretty much from one side to the other. It would be awesome if this was the central spine of a twin wide cycling infrastructure but sadly it isn't. One of the two senior schools is directly off it. Thinking about it four of the primary schools can be reached from it using cycle paths but have stretches of road, busy crossings or paths that have to be used.

Actually writing this made me realise with a few crossings installing and a bit ( sorry) of shared use path a lot of the schools could be made very accessible.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #18 on: 21 May, 2018, 07:54:02 pm »
Actually writing this made me realise with a few crossings installing and a bit ( sorry) of shared use path a lot of the schools could be made very accessible.

In many ways I think this sort of thing is an easier target than the radial commuter cyclists that tend to get most of the noise.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #19 on: 22 May, 2018, 09:14:51 am »
I loathe cycle facilities, the ghetto mentality.

I take it you insist on walking in the road rather than on the pavement?
Most UK cycle infrastructure is of course mediocre at best, but if built to Dutch standards it's really no hardship. Until it's as ubiquitous as in NL (where rural lanes are shared use anyhow), I don't see compulsion being anywhere near viable; so not something we need worry about until, ooh, 2040?

If I did walk in the road, the other faster road users still have a duty to avoid mowing me down.  It's the same on a bike.

I have cycled in Holland, and hated it (not Holland of course, but the extra faff and kilometerage involved in getting from A to B on the cycle facilities).  A better example IMO is Switzerland, where the cycle network is just superbly done, and although using the paths isn't usually compulsory, they are so good that they often do genuinely feel like the better option, even to me.

But even in Switzerland this is still inevitable:
Does it throw you out into the road at about the worst point?
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

ian

Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #20 on: 22 May, 2018, 09:49:51 am »

If I did walk in the road, the other faster road users still have a duty to avoid mowing me down.  It's the same on a bike.


It's not just about not being mown down. The majority of people simply don't want to mixed up with vehicles doing a multiple of their speed, more so when those vehicles are many multiples of their size and weight. I suspect most drivers would avoid running me down, but I have no wish to regularly walk up and down the local high street on this basis. There's always going to be concessions, drivers have to make them every time they stop at a traffic light, pedestrians every time they wait to cross a road. I don't see why cyclists shouldn't make concessions. I'm sorry if that means some cyclists can't zip from A to B as fast as their legs can carry them.

Frankly, I'd just much prefer to use my bike without the inevitable close passes and aggressive motorists, and being buffeted by passing lorries, with the hope that no one in a large high powered vehicle doesn't take exception to me or have one those signature 'brief lapses of attention.' I don't think I'm unusual in that.

Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #21 on: 22 May, 2018, 10:05:32 am »
 
Couple of thoughts: being on the road in a car is dangerous too, for similar reasons.

and

Many people on bikes seem to presume that the pavement (even when not "dual use") is the only proper place to be...

...and that encourages people in cars to presume that bikes Should Not Be On The Road;

which makes both pavements and roadways more dangerous (for everybody) than they need to be, and only likely to both become yet more dangerous.

JennyB

  • Old enough to know better
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #22 on: 22 May, 2018, 11:02:12 am »

It's not just about not being mown down. The majority of people simply don't want to mixed up with vehicles doing a multiple of their speed, more so when those vehicles are many multiples of their size and weight.

This. No one copes well with traffic going more than twice as fast, or twice as slow. Which is why cyclists in a hurry shouldn't be on footpaths, and why slow vehicles are banned from motorways. The trick is to make adequate provision for the slowest and least costly mode first, and then to provide faster modes if needed in ways that interfere least,
Jennifer - Walker of hills

Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #23 on: 22 May, 2018, 12:21:57 pm »
Many people on bikes seem to presume that the pavement (even when not "dual use") is the only proper place to be...

...and that encourages people in cars to presume that bikes Should Not Be On The Road;

which makes both pavements and roadways more dangerous (for everyboby) than they need to be, and only likely to both become yet more dangerous.
I don't disagree with most of this, but does this mean that people should cycle on the road, even if they don't feel comfortable doing so?

There's clear, albeit limited, evidence that the majority cyclist-pedestrian interactions are amicable and cause little or no inconvenience to the more vulnerable users. So I'm not sure I agree that pavement cycling is a particular cause for concern. I'd actually much rather people cycled on the pavement than didn't cycle at all.

If there's a shed load of people cycling on the pavements because the roads are too shite, at least it'd provide some evidence that some kind of cycling facilities are required.

With regards to praise of cycle paths/lanes, I had a lovely ride to and from Didcot Parkway, and again from Reading to the very splendid and worthwhile Siren Tap Yard on Saturday. It mostly consisted of an off-road cycle path for the first leg, and a reasonably wide on-road cycle lane for the second. The sun was shining and I was mostly separate from what little traffic there was (gaw' bless the royal family and those sportsball players [only joking]). It was absolutely fabulous and ultimately meant I could have a genuinely relaxing Saturday AND earn the copious amounts of beer I drank.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: In praise of cycle lanes?
« Reply #24 on: 22 May, 2018, 12:40:54 pm »
There's always going to be concessions, drivers have to make them every time they stop at a traffic light, pedestrians every time they wait to cross a road. I don't see why cyclists shouldn't make concessions. I'm sorry if that means some cyclists can't zip from A to B as fast as their legs can carry them.

Yes, of course we should make concessions. Where should I start... perhaps drivers would like their own roads, heck perhaps my taxes could be spent on that:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/biggest-upgrade-to-roads-in-a-generation
...
This includes £1.5 billion of investment to add an extra lane onto key motorways to turn them into smart motorways, boosting connectivity between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Yorkshire.
...
etc ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles