Author Topic: Daytime lights?  (Read 12432 times)

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #50 on: 06 June, 2018, 04:14:22 pm »
I leave my dynamo lights switched on all the time - it's kind of why I have them. My thinking is it gives you a lot more road presence and makes SMIDSY-prone drivers categorise you as a real vehicle in a way hi-viz doesn't. Most crashes I hear about are from other vehicles turning or pulling our across a cyclists path.

(I'm not a fan of blinding / flashing / strobing bike lights - the whole point is that drivers can see you and judge your speed / direction)

I also leave my car headlights on dipped beam all the time except on bright sunny days outside built up areas. I consider it a basic courtesy to other road users to highlight BFO death machine coming through. Driving a grey car on grey roads in our usually grey weather with no lights seems like it should be the subject of the same "how did you expect anyone to see you?" scorn that cyclists without hi-viz can expect if they're hit.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #51 on: 06 June, 2018, 06:37:17 pm »
I leave my dynamo lights switched on all the time - it's kind of why I have them. My thinking is it gives you a lot more road presence and makes SMIDSY-prone drivers categorise you as a real vehicle in a way hi-viz doesn't. Most crashes I hear about are from other vehicles turning or pulling our across a cyclists path.

Doing that would mean I would lose the 2.5W per hour of charging capacity for my devices...

What makes drives think you are a real road vehicle is educating them that cyclists are valid road users. You can put all sorts of lights and flashy crap on a cyclist and without education, it's gonna make fuck all difference.

Quote
(I'm not a fan of blinding / flashing / strobing bike lights - the whole point is that drivers can see you and judge your speed / direction)

And yet, the science says that flashy lights are more visible. Even legal in some places...

Quote
I also leave my car headlights on dipped beam all the time except on bright sunny days outside built up areas. I consider it a basic courtesy to other road users to highlight BFO death machine coming through. Driving a grey car on grey roads in our usually grey weather with no lights seems like it should be the subject of the same "how did you expect anyone to see you?" scorn that cyclists without hi-viz can expect if they're hit.

"How did you expect anyone to see you?"
"With their eyes, like a normal human."

Can't see people clearly, slow the fsck down!

Adding day time running lights will add a barrier to cycling up take. Any gains in direct KSI number reduction will be offset by a couple of orders of magnitude by a reduction in people cycling and the corresponding higher number of deaths from obesity related illnesses. You see this in Australia when they brought in the Helmet requirement. Making it easy and safe for people to cycle should be a priority.

A few years back .nl was unhappy about the number of people riding without lights. So rather than a massive crack down, they looked at the reason. Why are so many not using lights? Because lights get nicked, people forget to take them off when they lock their bike up, then some scrote wanders off with them. So they changed the law. lights can now be attached to the human on the bike rather than the bike. So now you see a student with a backpack on, with one light attached to the back of the pack, and one on their chest. They get off the bike, they turn them off when they get into class... The result? Increase in number of people cycling with lights (from some, to a few...).

Stop making it harder for people to cycle, it doesn't make them safer.

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #52 on: 06 June, 2018, 08:43:58 pm »
A few years back .nl was unhappy about the number of people riding without lights. So rather than a massive crack down, they looked at the reason. Why are so many not using lights? Because lights get nicked, people forget to take them off when they lock their bike up, then some scrote wanders off with them. So they changed the law. lights can now be attached to the human on the bike rather than the bike. So now you see a student with a backpack on, with one light attached to the back of the pack, and one on their chest. They get off the bike, they turn them off when they get into class... The result? Increase in number of people cycling with lights (from some, to a few...).

Stop making it harder for people to cycle, it doesn't make them safer.

J
Surely most bikes in NL have dynamo lighting? Oh yeah, maintenance! You see plenty of people in UK with "body-worn lights" (backpacks, jackets, helmets, strapped to arms) and though it's not strictly a legal substitute for vehicle-born lights,* I seriously doubt if anyone's ever been prosecuted for it. Mind you, I also don't think most of them are very effective, especially the helmet ones.

*And if we're to be strict about the law, virtually no cyclists in UK are legally lit, due to the fact that no one, even British manufacturers, gets their lights certified to BS6102 (or whatever the number is).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #53 on: 06 June, 2018, 08:52:35 pm »
Surely most bikes in NL have dynamo lighting? Oh yeah, maintenance! You see plenty of people in UK with "body-worn lights" (backpacks, jackets, helmets, strapped to arms) and though it's not strictly a legal substitute for vehicle-born lights,* I seriously doubt if anyone's ever been prosecuted for it. Mind you, I also don't think most of them are very effective, especially the helmet ones.

*And if we're to be strict about the law, virtually no cyclists in UK are legally lit, due to the fact that no one, even British manufacturers, gets their lights certified to BS6102 (or whatever the number is).

Dynamo lighting? With a Dutch bike you're lucky if the wheels only rotate on 2 axis, there's some air in the tyres and the chain has seen oil in the life time of the owner... Dynamo lights for every day road bikes here are very much in the minority. Lighting, if a bike has it is likely to be a €1 blinky with a coin cell. You'll often see a bike with about 3 of these, as it's cheaper to buy a new light than it is to replace the dead battery, and so they ride around with the dead lights.

As for BS6102, Brompton's lights are certified to BS6102... As are some Cateye's...

However, I believe the exact wording of the law is BS6102 or equivilant EU standard (Will that change after next March?). Meaning that any light that is approved for StVZO is legal in the UK.

Where most people actually are breaking the law is actually reflectors. You should have 1 red reflector, 1 white reflector, and here's where most people miss out: pedal reflectors (orange). Does anyone make SPD-SL pedals with a pair of orange reflectors?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #54 on: 06 June, 2018, 08:56:29 pm »
Are pedal reflectors a legal requirement in nl too?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #55 on: 06 June, 2018, 08:57:38 pm »
Oh, addendum: In Germany all bikes over 12kg are legally required to have dynamo lighting. This is why you will often see a German ebike with a dynamo hub...

How this works for non Germans travelling in .de is an interesting one. The Vienna convention says foreign pedal cycles need a brake that works, a bell (that can be heard at a distance, and no other noise device), front light (white), rear light (red), red rear reflector. Whether you can argue that with a German traffic cop on a dark road in the rain, is another matter.

Note, that UK only ratified vienna in March this year...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #56 on: 06 June, 2018, 09:06:14 pm »
Are pedal reflectors a legal requirement in nl too?

Yes. By the letter of the law, the requirements for a bike (not including trikes and trailers which have more complex rules) in .nl a bike is required to have front reflector (white), rear reflector (red), pedal reflectors (orange), front light (white), rear light (red). The lights can be fitted to the bike, or the torso of the rider, and it explicitly states torso. What the rules also say is that any additional reflective material on the bike must follow the same rules. So if you have additional reflective stuff on the chain stays, that has to be red. If you have additional reflectors on the cranks, that has to be yellow, if it's on the front it has to be white.

However, .nl is very pragmatic. What is legal, and what is enforced do not match. If the law was enforced to the letter, the fines of one rush hour's crack down on bikes would clear the national debt... So as long as you have a front light, and a rear light, no Dutch cop is going to stop you. And even if you don't have them, chances are you're not going to be stopped. Usually in the Autumn the cops (at least in Amsterdam) do a couple of crack downs on lights, sometimes going so far as to offer the option of buying some for €5, or having the €50 fine.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #57 on: 06 June, 2018, 09:28:58 pm »
Oh, addendum: In Germany all bikes over 12kg are legally required to have dynamo lighting. This is why you will often see a German ebike with a dynamo hub...

How this works for non Germans travelling in .de is an interesting one. The Vienna convention says foreign pedal cycles need a brake that works, a bell (that can be heard at a distance, and no other noise device), front light (white), rear light (red), red rear reflector. Whether you can argue that with a German traffic cop on a dark road in the rain, is another matter.

Note, that UK only ratified vienna in March this year...

J
The German law changed a year or two ago. Battery lighting is now legally acceptable for all bikes regardless of weight, though I don't know whether that technically only applies to bikes new post-change or all. Anyway from my observation many Germans used battery lights for much the same reasons as in Holland.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #58 on: 06 June, 2018, 09:36:57 pm »

The German law changed a year or two ago. Battery lighting is now legally acceptable for all bikes regardless of weight, though I don't know whether that technically only applies to bikes new post-change or all. Anyway from my observation many Germans used battery lights for much the same reasons as in Holland.

Ah, that's really useful to know. Thanks for the update.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #59 on: 07 June, 2018, 12:04:06 am »
I know that traction-battery-powered lights are standard on some German e-bikes (eg. Kalkhoff), so they seem to have sorted that out at some point, too.  (This is perfectly reasonable, as a battery that's too depleted to power a current-hungry motor will happily run a couple of LEDs for a few hours.)

The thing that struck me when going from .nl to .de (apart from the bicycles suddenly sprouting gears and suspension forks) was that those that did have lights were much more likely to have actually good ones.  Plenty of unlit cyclists, thobut.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #60 on: 07 June, 2018, 09:00:37 am »
Usual stuff - come up with a product then market it by promoting a fictional "need", sometimes based on spurious assumptions, to persuade people that they must have it.

That's how we ended up with helmets - but let's not debate that here. It has its own place...
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #61 on: 07 June, 2018, 10:29:22 am »
It's not really the product that's the problem (well, I think flashing front lights are a work of Stan) - a bicycle light with a mode that channels all its power into 'be-seen' optics (rather than directing light down at the road) for use when it isn't dark is a reasonable idea.  Weather conditions that make lighting up in daytime prudent do happen.

It's the idea that we all need to be riding around with lights on all the time that's the issue - and that seems to be a function of German regulations.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #62 on: 07 June, 2018, 10:41:30 am »
Yes; but in this case it's actually a borrowing from the culture of motor vehicle legislation. The first such laws were in Scandinavia. They then spread to various other countries, many in Eastern Europe, before LEDs made DRLs a reality. But they were for motor vehicles.

(As for those first laws, I'd say road types, terrain, climatic conditions and driving styles make daytime headlight laws pragmatically sensible in many of those countries: long, straight, broad, dead flat roads, high speeds, "straight down the middle and everyone else moves out the way" overtaking, large forested areas which create deep shade even in midsummer. None of which really translates to bicycles or anything in towns or even on narrow country lanes.)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Nick H.

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #63 on: 07 June, 2018, 06:07:18 pm »
With Trek being American I doubt that their harangue about daytime lights is prompted by German legislation.  Maybe it has more to do with US drivers who think a bicycle is a child's toy which should be on the pavement. Perhaps the lights would persuade such drivers to perceive a bicycle as having the status of a motorcycle.

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #64 on: 10 June, 2018, 08:27:31 pm »
Does anyone make SPD-SL pedals with a pair of orange reflectors?

Difficult to make pedal reflectors work for recumbent riders too!

Nick H.

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #65 on: 10 June, 2018, 10:29:12 pm »
You want the Shimano SM-PD58. If you can find stock anywhere.



Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #66 on: 11 June, 2018, 05:17:40 pm »
...Perhaps the lights would persuade such drivers...
...not to bother looking for cyclists anymore

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #67 on: 18 June, 2018, 12:14:56 am »
If someone having lights on their bikes makes them feel safer and hey ride their bike, thats +1 cyclist, therefore more cyclists therefore safer for the rest of us.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #68 on: 18 June, 2018, 12:32:58 am »
If someone having lights on their bikes makes them feel safer and hey ride their bike, thats +1 cyclist, therefore more cyclists therefore safer for the rest of us.

That's fine. As long as it's by choice. The issue comes when it becomes mandatory. Like the aussie helmet law, or the French hivi law. "I don't want to wear a helmet, so I'll drive to work" "I forgot my hivi so I won't cycle home"

Cycling is proven to be fantastic for the health of a nation. Any and all obstacles that prevent people cycling should be removed. By all means wear a hivi, wear a helmet, have flashy lights in the midday sun. Just make sure we don't sleep walk into it becoming either expected or mandatory.

"It's her own fault she was runover, she wasn't wearing a helmet". Becomes "well if you will ride around without day time lights on, it's your own fault you were a splatted across the road by my badly designed 44t death box"

If the motor industry want to help cyclists. Fix the design of hgv's.

If the government wants to help cyclists, educate motorists.

If cyclists want to help cyclists, help people cycle without any judgementalism or requirements for specialist kit. Aka go Dutch.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Pedaldog.

  • Heedlessly impulsive, reckless, rash.
  • The Madcap!
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #69 on: 19 June, 2018, 01:01:02 am »

That's fine. As long as it's by choice. The issue comes when it becomes mandatory. Like the aussie helmet law, or the French hivi law. "I don't want to wear a helmet, so I'll drive to work" "I forgot my hivi so I won't cycle home"

Cycling is proven to be fantastic for the health of a nation. Any and all obstacles that prevent people cycling should be removed. By all means wear a hivi, wear a helmet, have flashy lights in the midday sun. Just make sure we don't sleep walk into it becoming either expected or mandatory.

"It's her own fault she was runover, she wasn't wearing a helmet". Becomes "well if you will ride around without day time lights on, it's your own fault you were a splatted across the road by my badly designed 44t death box"

If the motor industry want to help cyclists. Fix the design of hgv's.

If the government wants to help cyclists, educate motorists.

If cyclists want to help cyclists, help people cycle without any judgementalism or requirements for specialist kit. Aka go Dutch.

J

100%, Spot on IMO.
You touch my Coffee and I'll slap you so hard, even Google won't be able to find you!

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #70 on: 21 June, 2018, 11:32:25 pm »
"It's her own fault she was runover, she wasn't wearing a helmet". Becomes "well if you will ride around without day time lights on, it's your own fault you were a splatted across the road by my badly designed 44t death box"

...

If cyclists want to help cyclists, help people cycle without any judgementalism or requirements for specialist kit. Aka go Dutch.

I don't agree that cycling with a light on (or with a magic hat) is a vote for compulsion.  I do think that if people feel safer cycling with magic hats and lights on (or their wives/husbands/kids/parents think they're safer) they will cycle more, which is a good thing.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #71 on: 21 June, 2018, 11:48:37 pm »
I have a similar view about recumbent/trailer flags.  I don't think they normally do anything other than occasionally scare horses and attract drunken zombies, but they help people feel less nervous about mixing with traffic on a low cycle or with their kids/dogs/shopping in tow, so why not?  Just make sure it's something more interesting than that ubiquitous hi-vis orange or the vanishingly skinny ICE effort.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #72 on: 22 June, 2018, 08:58:56 am »
An Engerland flag?  ;D
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #73 on: 22 June, 2018, 10:03:15 am »
"It's her own fault she was runover, she wasn't wearing a helmet". Becomes "well if you will ride around without day time lights on, it's your own fault you were a splatted across the road by my badly designed 44t death box"

...

If cyclists want to help cyclists, help people cycle without any judgementalism or requirements for specialist kit. Aka go Dutch.

I don't agree that cycling with a light on (or with a magic hat) is a vote for compulsion.  I do think that if people feel safer cycling with magic hats and lights on (or their wives/husbands/kids/parents think they're safer) they will cycle more, which is a good thing.

I think the correct approach would be to deal with the cause of the feeling of being unsafe, rather than addressing the feeling itself.
It is simpler than it looks.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #74 on: 22 June, 2018, 11:30:20 am »
An Engerland flag?  ;D

I expect that would achieve a positive reaction from a certain subset of bad drivers, yes...