Audax entry etiquette

[Jamesha]

Hi all,

I have a question about entering multiple audaxes on one day so that I can choose the distance I ride according to conditions on the day.

For example an organiser runs a 100km and 200km event from the same start position starting one hour apart.

Would it be ok to enter both and choose which to ride when I arrive? If yes I guess I should let the organiser know my intention.

I am considering my first 200km ride for approx five years and am reasonably confident of completing it if the weather is ok but would be dubious if it was very bad. I would still want to ride the 100km even in poor weather.

Is this a no-no and am I just being a wimp to consider it?

The rides I have my eye on are Blacksheep's Theo Nelson and Mr. Pickwick's Cymraeg Cyrch on 4th November.

[telstarbox]

I would register/pay for the longer (more expensive?)* one then tell the organiser you're 'downgrading' on the day if necessary. No need to pay two fees when you're only doing one ride.

*In your case the two events cost the same.

[Graeme]

I'm an organiser who does this. I'm happy for you to enter the one you would prefer to ride, and then contact me nearer the time if you needed to swap for some reason. It would be nice if the reason was audacious, but I'm not that judgemental. I swapped four riders from my 200 to the 100 this year. So; from an organiser's perspective it probably isn't an issue - and if you do choose to pay twice and DNF one of the events it wouldn't come as a surprise to the org who can see your name on both lists. They'd probably email you to clarify.

The challenge that I would think about isn't 'etiquette towards the organiser' but 'etiquette to other riders'. If it is a popular event which will close after 75 entries and you enter both to secure a place on either, you might be denying someone else an opportunity to ride. An email to the organiser may save you money and make the whole thing easier.

If you have an organiser who has a good reason to deny you the chance to swap, then you could enter both - it is your money.

[whosatthewheel]

I would register/pay for the longer (more expensive?)* one then tell the organiser you're 'downgrading' on the day if necessary. No need to pay two fees when you're only doing one ride.

*In your case the two events cost the same.

Arguably, since brevet cards are filled in advance by the organiser and are paid by the organiser, such a change requires an extra brevet card to be filled on the day and extra money from the organiser. I do believe brevet cards are charged 1 pound by AUK to the organiser.

[telstarbox]

Not quite - 35p/45p per card, plus 20p for validation of a card. If the organiser allows EOL (which is what this technically is) they would have some blank cards at the start as well.

[Philip Whiteman]

Arguably, since brevet cards are filled in advance by the organiser and are paid by the organiser, such a change requires an extra brevet card to be filled on the day and extra money from the organiser. I do believe brevet cards are charged 1 pound by AUK to the organiser.

You're quite right.  I only purchase enough cards for the number of entrants. It remains possible to swaps where other riders have declared DNS but that is a risk for the person seeking to change events.

For my sins I used to operate the Sunrise and Snowdrop Express audaxes with a total of 260-280 entries.  Both were 121km in length an running clockwise and anti-clockwise directions on the same day. This inevitably created a huge headache with large numbers of people seeking to swap between directions in order to ride with friends. In principle, I had no objections to individuals seeking to swap. Refusing a change would punitive and counter to providing the outcome of a enjoyable day for the entrants but the administrivia was the primary reason I sought to hand over the event to a new organiser (sorry, Phil Richards).

[grams]

There's this rule you might want to be careful of "An AUK event may not be ridden concurrently with any other event eligible for AUK awards."

I assume you'd be in breach of it if the 100 followed much the same route as the 200.

But not a problem if you formally commit to one or the other event before you start.

[Ian H]

Graeme sums it up for me. 

[wilkyboy]

I would register/pay for the longer (more expensive?)* one then tell the organiser you're 'downgrading' on the day if necessary. No need to pay two fees when you're only doing one ride.

*In your case the two events cost the same.

"Tell"?  "Ask nicely", surely.  And if you wait until the day rather than arranging it in advance then you may find you're out of luck due to a paucity of spare brevets — I sticker mine in advance, and only order a few spares for late entries and pre-arranged EOLs.

I would still only expect to receive one fee and I am usually as accommodating as I can be; less-so the closer to the event, due to having so much to do to prepare.

[BeMoreMike]

The challenge that I would think about isn't 'etiquette towards the organiser' but 'etiquette to other riders'. If it is a popular event which will close after 75 entries and you enter both to secure a place on either, you might be denying someone else an opportunity to ride. An email to the organiser may save you money and make the whole thing easier.

This was the first thing I thought of when I read the OP. What you're suggesting is deliberately blocking entries for other riders and reducing the size of the field the organiser had taken the effort to cater for. Would you do this if it was a £35 sportive ?

For me it goes against the whole spirit of Audax...of being audacious and challenging yourself. I can see your reasons for considering this, imo there's no shame in not completing a course, so why don't you either enter the 200 with a planned short cut if it all gets too much, or enter the 100 and do a separate ECE to make up the distance.

[Martin]

I'm running two events on Saturday; they are the same distance the only difference is AAA so I do allow swapsies on the day as I usually have a few spare cards (I did check this with AUK and I think it's OK as the entry form is for distance not AAA)

If I was thinking of doing this 100 / 200 option I would definitely go down the ECE route rather than give the organiser any more to worry about on the day; although unless you are doing all the ECE after the event it pretty much commits you to the 200 anyway. I don't think it's cricket to carry both cards with you; you should decide on the calendar distance before you set off.

[wilkyboy]

Ah, I should just add, if you entered both of my events then you would only be issued with one brevet on the day — you can only ride one points-awarded event at a time, so you could only receive the brevet for the later-starting event having either DNSed or DNFed the earlier one.  I don't think it was your intent to pick up both brevets and ride until you were tired then claim the one most fitting, I think you just wanted to guarantee a place on the start list for either and make your mind up in the shower before leaving home.  But I'm making the point that as an organiser then I would prevent you making your mind up on the road with both brevets in your back pocket. 

Then again, an hour between start times does mean you'd've had to have discarded an hour on the longer event, and it sounds like you might need that hour, by which point you would've already made your mind up.

To my mind, if you think you can but you're not sure then I'd say go for it — you won't learn anything much by being overly timid.  Just pocket this advice: if you feel like you've had enough, have a cup of tea and see how you feel!  It could be coffee, or simply get off the bike for five minutes — everyone's different in this.  The principle, though, is to give your body a chance to catch up before deciding anything — usually you'll find you're fine and can carry on, you were just having a moment (I have had LOTS of these!). 

And then pace yourself, it's not a race, it's an endurance event — you against the hour glass, that's all.  And if the hour glass wins then just enjoy the distance, it's just a bike ride.

[telstarbox]

I would register/pay for the longer (more expensive?)* one then tell the organiser you're 'downgrading' on the day if necessary. No need to pay two fees when you're only doing one ride.

*In your case the two events cost the same.

"Tell"?  "Ask nicely", surely.  And if you wait until the day rather than arranging it in advance then you may find you're out of luck due to a paucity of spare brevets — I sticker mine in advance, and only order a few spares for late entries and pre-arranged EOLs.

I would still only expect to receive one fee and I am usually as accommodating as I can be; less-so the closer to the event, due to having so much to do to prepare.

Sorry, yes of course.

[wilkyboy]

"Tell"?  "Ask nicely", surely.

Sorry, yes of course.

  

[Karla]

The general rule here is: ask the person running the event rather than asking a bunch of randommers on the internet.

[BeMoreMike]

The original question was about Audax entry etiquette and what he/she is suggesting doing could be seemed as bad etiquette towards more than just the organiser.
 
I say good on them for asking a "bunch of randommers on the internet", after all, most of us on here do pretend to know few things about this subject (Audax), and I get a feeling quite a few people go ahead and submit multiple entries without bothering to think of any knock on effects to their comrades.

With the ECE thing, are you committed to the whole distance, including the calendar event....can you decide to drop the ECE on the day and still claim points for just the Calendar ?

[Martin]

With the ECE thing, are you committed to the whole distance, including the calendar event....can you decide to drop the ECE on the day and still claim points for just the Calendar ?

yes you can; I have no control over which riders an organiser chooses to validate, he / she doesn't even need to know about the ECE.

[BeMoreMike]

 Cheers

btw, I don't pretend to know a few things about Audax....i'm definitely still learning !!

[Greenbank]

With the ECE thing, are you committed to the whole distance, including the calendar event....can you decide to drop the ECE on the day and still claim points for just the Calendar ?

yes you can; I have no control over which riders an organiser chooses to validate, he / she doesn't even need to know about the ECE.

There are two situations with regards to ECEs. One I (personally) think is completely legitimate and one that isn't (although many may disagree).

Let's say I entered a 100km ride and wanted to ECE it up to 200km by riding 50km to the start of the event, and then 50km home from the event.

If I wake up that morning and think "you know what, ICBA to ride 50km to this event so I'm going to get the train and just ride the 100km calendar event".

That's fine in my book. What I've done is effectively DNF the ECE part of the ride and reset my commitment (down to just riding the 100km calendar ride). More importantly I've done this before I've started what I am eventually going to claim, and at that point I wasn't currently 'riding' an event as I'd DNF'd the ECE part already. Likewise if I'd actually started the 50km ECE bit; if I give up part way through the first ECE leg then I can DNF that ride and reset my commitment again (to ride the calendar event only) before starting again (at the start of the calendar event).

What I don't personally agree with is (for example) riding the 50km ECE to the start, riding the 100km calendar event, but then not completing the 50km ECE home but still claiming the 100km calender event. To me this isn't completing what I had set out to do before starting the ride. If it were me I'd consider contacting the calendar event organiser and asking them not to validate my calendar ride[1][2].

It's impossible for Martin (as ECE organiser) to differentiate between the two situations, in neither case is ECE evidence submitted, so it must be down to the individual rider to do what they think is right.

Another similar situation that is unclear but doable:-
* ECE 100 + Calendar + ECE 100
* ECE 100 to start completed
* Calendar ride DNF - say cut short after a few km for some reason but then
* ECE 100 back home completed
* 2 points? (personally I wouldn't be submitting my ECE claim if this happened)

1. Although, thinking back to days before ECE when it was done through the DIY system I have done exactly this. I entered a DIY 200 to ride a 100km calendar event and then cycle 100km home. I wasn't feeling well at the end of the calendar 100 event so I bailed on the idea of riding home and got the train instead and the calendar 100 event brevet card was still submitted (and it counted for FWC points). I'd hope that if it happened again today I would stick with my principles and request non-validation.

2. If the organiser doesn't want to lose the fact that a rider did complete their ride they could submit the ride under a different name (without my AUK number). John Random Nonmember would get yet another x points.

[Si S]

I'm running two events on Saturday; they are the same distance the only difference is AAA so I do allow swapsies on the day as I usually have a few spare cards (I did check this with AUK and I think it's OK as the entry form is for distance not AAA)

If I was thinking of doing this 100 / 200 option I would definitely go down the ECE route rather than give the organiser any more to worry about on the day; although unless you are doing all the ECE after the event it pretty much commits you to the 200 anyway. I don't think it's cricket to carry both cards with you; you should decide on the calendar distance before you set off.

my bold

Unless I misunderstand, entirely possible, it's precluded by the regs is it not?

7.1 AUK events are cycle rides approved and registered with AUK, organised by AUK members and published in the AUK calendar in time for riders to take part.
An AUK event may not be ridden concurrently with any other event eligible for AUK awards.

I guess entering is not riding but if you take that approach there's not a lot to stop^* DIY entries of 100,200 and 300 on the same day and just riding as far as you feel like.

^*Other than your DIY org telling you where to go, I guess you could use a different org for each option and no-one would know, but now we're into really taking the piss.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Another similar situation that is unclear but doable:-
* ECE 100 + Calendar + ECE 100
* ECE 100 to start completed
* Calendar ride DNF - say cut short after a few km for some reason but then
* ECE 100 back home completed
* 2 points? (personally I wouldn't be submitting my ECE claim if this happened)

Don't the rules say that if you DNF (or DNS) the calendar event, the ECE doesn't count? The calendar organiser doesn't know about your ECE but Martin knows which calendar event your ECE is "attached" to, so it's easy to check in this case.

[Greenbank]

Ah yes, that's specifically mentioned in the ECE FAQs (http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=273.0):-

"
14. What if I do not start or finish the ECE?

The calendar event will still be validated if you have completed it within time; the two rides are separately entered and only combined if both are completed. You cannot however claim an ECE if you have not completed the calendar leg, this is because the AUK website will incorrectly credit you with distance points if you do, and also the ECE-only leg will be over the time allowed.
"

[grams]

Don't the rules say that if you DNF (or DNS) the calendar event, the ECE doesn't count? The calendar organiser doesn't know about your ECE but Martin knows which calendar event your ECE is "attached" to, so it's easy to check in this case.

I've had ECEs credited on the system before the calendar org has uploaded their provisional finishers list, so I don't think this is enforced directly. But no it wouldn't be cricket, not least because you'd have, say, 28 hours to complete the 200 km ECE!

What I don't personally agree with is (for example) riding the 50km ECE to the start, riding the 100km calendar event, but then not completing the 50km ECE home but still claiming the 100km calender event. To me this isn't completing what I had set out to do before starting the ride. If it were me I'd consider contacting the calendar event organiser and asking them not to validate my calendar ride

If this was enforced or expected, I'd be put off registering ECEs in the first place. I consider this loophole to be a bonus encouragement to use ECEs and ride to events.

[Greenbank]

What I don't personally agree with is (for example) riding the 50km ECE to the start, riding the 100km calendar event, but then not completing the 50km ECE home but still claiming the 100km calender event. To me this isn't completing what I had set out to do before starting the ride. If it were me I'd consider contacting the calendar event organiser and asking them not to validate my calendar ride

If this was enforced or expected, I'd be put off registering ECEs in the first place. I consider this loophole to be a bonus encouragement to use ECEs and ride to events.

Sure, which is why I think the current situation is the best option.

I personally wouldn't want to have my calendar ride validated if I failed to complete the trailing ECE leg, but I'm never going to request that anyone else have the validation removed from their calendar ride if they fail to complete a trailing ECE leg.

And if I'm ever in that position again we'll see if I have the courage of my own convictions to go through with requesting non-validation.

[Martin]

Another similar situation that is unclear but doable:-
* ECE 100 + Calendar + ECE 100
* ECE 100 to start completed
* Calendar ride DNF - say cut short after a few km for some reason but then
* ECE 100 back home completed
* 2 points? (personally I wouldn't be submitting my ECE claim if this happened)

Don't the rules say that if you DNF (or DNS) the calendar event, the ECE doesn't count? The calendar organiser doesn't know about your ECE but Martin knows which calendar event your ECE is "attached" to, so it's easy to check in this case.

Yes they do; plus an ECE 100 without the calendar bit in the middle will be over the time allowance so I'll spot it. I validate ECE's as soon as I receive them for gps entries as it's plain to see the complete distance. And the 2 points all get allotted to the ECE so if the calendar ride doesn't get validated the ECE is still there. But it's never happened.

I can think of another slight parallel with 24hr TT's, they count as AUK rides but you are not required to commit to a minimum distance in advance

But aside from all (valid) arguments about not having to complete what you set out to do it's impossible to police, do people expect me to pour through all the calendar results weeks afterwards and go "ooh Sir he didn't complete the calendar event!! / send me his / her ECE evidence" and then have to get onto Sue and Keith / John Ward to scrub it?