Quality high spoke count carbon disc rims.

[morbihan]

Hi. Struggling to source the above.
Want to build up a set of aero & strong wheels for endurance races. 4:5 or there about.
Current set up are Bel Hed/son dynamo. Solid but not the fastest.

Rider 83kg. & 10kg of luggage.

thank ye.

[Pedal Castro]

I get all my carbon rims from FarSports in Xiamen,  they are happy to drill up to 32 holes in a rim. I wrote a blog post about a visit to them earlier this year.

http://www.nrtoone.com/home/?p=1153

[sojournermike]

How many spokes do you want?

I've got the bits in the shed to build up a pair of 50mm deep widish tubeless wheels on Miche Primato hubs. They'll be laced 20:24 with CX Rays.

Most of the Chinese rim manufacturers will drill up to 32 holes and then you just need to choose suitable hubs and spokes. To be honest, I'm not fully convinced about the aero gains from CX Rays, but they do seem to have some gains in durability compared to Laser consequent on the extra working. Whether that gain is where it matters, at the elbow, is another matter.


If you want really dependable, you might use Sapim Force or CX Force spokes, with 2.3mm elbows, particularly at the back. That might allow you to use a few less spokes than you would otherwise feel comfortable with?

[Frank9755]

I can't tell you where to find such a thing, but I can explain why you most likely won't find high spoke-count carbon rims very easily, if that is any help?  (EDIT - just read PC's post above: clearly there may be some sources)

The prevailing belief is that there would be no point in such an item because chunky rims are stong without lots of spokes and wheels with lots of spokes are not aero.

[Frank9755]

I get all my carbon rims from FarSports in Xiamen,  they are happy to drill up to 32 holes in a rim. I wrote a blog post about a visit to them earlier this year.

http://www.nrtoone.com/home/?p=1153

Interesting post I'll note them for when I next fancy some wheels!

[morbihan]

How many spokes do you want?

I've got the bits in the shed to build up a pair of 50mm deep widish tubeless wheels on Miche Primato hubs. They'll be laced 20:24 with CX Rays.

Most of the Chinese rim manufacturers will drill up to 32 holes and then you just need to choose suitable hubs and spokes. To be honest, I'm not fully convinced about the aero gains from CX Rays, but they do seem to have some gains in durability compared to Laser consequent on the extra working. Whether that gain is where it matters, at the elbow, is another matter.


If you want really dependable, you might use Sapim Force or CX Force spokes, with 2.3mm elbows, particularly at the back. That might allow you to use a few less spokes than you would otherwise feel comfortable with?

Useful thanks. 

Frank, I noticed a few heavier riders in Geraardsbergen had deep profile wheels but I didn't note the spoke counts or whether they were disc or regular brakes.
I'd want at least 32 on the back wheel (and no bladed spokes),  also to be able to put a 35mm tire on.  As you say most people building with aero rims will be racing with no weight on board, so I guess its a slim market.

I'm a bit leery about building up an expensive wheel set on gear thats not widely tested tbh.

[Frank9755]

When you want to go against the mainstream, there is a case for taking professional advice, ie talking to a wheelbuilder and seeing what they suggest.
I did the TCR on wheels with deep rims and few spokes (18/24) because the wheelbuilder was confident they'd be fine, given my weight and requirements.  I would never have spec'd those wheels myself

[Hot Flatus]

I get all my carbon rims from FarSports in Xiamen,  they are happy to drill up to 32 holes in a rim. I wrote a blog post about a visit to them earlier this year.

http://www.nrtoone.com/home/?p=1153

There is also:

https://www.lightbicycle.com/carbon-road-bike/carbon-road-cyclocross-bike-rim/clincher


Had a look at some of their stuff at the LBS and it looked decent. LBS owner was using it.

[dim]

Ok .... so I was in the same predicament a few months ago...

I had a good budget for a new wheelset and started researching forums. I had my mind set on a light carbon wheelset with a profile of 50mm

After much deliberation, and good advise, I opted for HED Belgium Plus rims (Tubeless ready) with Chris King R45 hubs (the ones with the ceramic bearing upgrade), and Sapiem CX-ray spokes (not the lightest wheelset, .... but quality).

reason being, that on the rides that I do, it is always a loop and the wind is strong on most days .... I am now training on some hills nearby and my weakness is climbing ...

I was told (by several people), that Aero is good if you have the wind behind you, or are riding directly into a headwind, but is crap when the wind hits you sideways

I use Strava Stix (connected to Strava) , which gives me climbing speed on all rides ... I think that I have made a wise decision based on the new info/stats, and a bonus is that I am now using tubeless tyres (which I am very impressed with)

I still want Aero carbon wheels as they look cool 

[Samuel D]

I was told (by several people), that Aero is good if you have the wind behind you, or are riding directly into a headwind, but is crap when the wind hits you sideways

Wind-tunnel tests show the opposite, i.e. that the greatest benefit of deep-section wheels is in crosswinds, at the yaw angle just prior to the aerofoil stalling.

Wind tunnels are idealised scenarios that don’t fully apply to a real bicycle with dirty airflow all over the place, but the principle probably still holds. Certainly Team Sky, who should know, often uses deep-section wheels on stages where crosswinds are likely (some other teams do not, perhaps because of the common knowledge that deep-section wheels aren’t good in crosswinds).

There is the matter of steering control too, but that’s most relevant to high-speed descending.

[whosatthewheel]

You can buy custom drilled rims from various Chinese manufacturers.

Otherwise you can buy Notorious rims from BLB, which come in all drillings

https://www.bricklanebikes.co.uk/notorious-38mm-rim-depth?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjNzGkoii1wIVwzLTCh29RAHgEAQYASABEgIJgfD_BwE#fo_c=1307&fo_k=807700eb4b0ab2294354721148521f56&fo_s=gplauk&fo_oid=4237

When I used them, they were quite narrow (20 mm), not sure if now they are wider. They are very good quality and robust, but a bit heavy. They have a brake track, so technically not "disc"

[DuncanM]

I was told (by several people), that Aero is good if you have the wind behind you, or are riding directly into a headwind, but is crap when the wind hits you sideways

Wind-tunnel tests show the opposite, i.e. that the greatest benefit of deep-section wheels is in crosswinds, at the yaw angle just prior to the aerofoil stalling.

Wind tunnels are idealised scenarios that don’t fully apply to a real bicycle with dirty airflow all over the place, but the principle probably still holds. Certainly Team Sky, who should know, often uses deep-section wheels on stages where crosswinds are likely (some other teams do not, perhaps because of the common knowledge that deep-section wheels aren’t good in crosswinds).

I think this is one of those cases where "consensus opinion" hasn't caught up with improvements in technology. The older V shaped rims were not very good in crosswinds, but the modern U shaped ones have much more aero thought applied to them and actually produce considerable lift at medium angles of attack. If you're going slow enough that your angle of attack is high enough to cause the aerofoil to stall then these are probably the wrong sort of wheels, but I would have thought that for people who are fast enough for aero to really matter, that condition is only likely going up a mountain.

[dim]

http://www.bdopcycling.com/Rims%20-%20DTO-40.asp

1. DISC-SPECIFIC UD CARBON CLINCHER RIM
2. TUBELESS COMPATIBLE
3. HEIGHT: 40mm
4. EXTERNAL WIDTH: 26.5mm-
5. INTERNAL WIDTH: 18mm
6. WEIGHT: 420g
7. AVAILABLE IN 24H, 28H AND 32H
8. NO RIDER WEIGHT LIMIT
9.120psi TIRE PRESSURE LIMIT
10. ERD: 565.0

$299.99US ea / $549.99US pair
* FREE SHIPPING

[mattc]

There is the matter of steering control too, but that’s most relevant to high-speed descending.

Phew - that's a relief. It's not like steering is very important when riding down a mountain.   

[dim]

an interesting article:

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/aero-in-plain-english

[Samuel D]

Almost all the bullet points on that page are wrong. And speaking of “interesting”, how about this claim:

“50mm is going to be a bit faster for a novice rider, wanting to get up a group in chaingangs etc. Average speeds can increase 2-3mph over box-section wheels.”

Cyclists are so weird.

[sojournermike]

Almost all the bullet points on that page are wrong. And speaking of “interesting”, how about this claim:

“50mm is going to be a bit faster for a novice rider, wanting to get up a group in chaingangs etc. Average speeds can increase 2-3mph over box-section wheels.”

Cyclists are so weird.

This!

I had a slightly more direct description of the advertorial on that page, but I'll refrain from sharing it.

I might add a few more practical thoughts later.

[Karla]

I've ridden my 45 mm Corimas* in practically all conditions that you'd ever want to be out in.  They do feel slightly different to normal wheels when you first ride them but you quickly get used to them and they give no problems. I've used them a lot on the TT bike which isn't the easiest thing to control, and would have no qualms riding them in a sidewind.  On a road bike it's a complete non-issue.

I did have a Het Jet 90 in the front on the TT bike for a while, but sold it on because it made for some brown pants moments on windy days.  Some people seem to cope fine - I wasn't one of them.  It was a pity, because it looked great!

On the rear, I'd have no problem running a full disc in anything up to quite a strong wind.  It has maybe 10% as much effect on handling as does the front wheel.


*One is an Aero, the other is an Aero+, it's a long story.

[morbihan]

Hey up again.
I've gone a bit cool on the aero/endurance wheel set up after reading around and garnering a few opinions here and there. Thanks for those who offered up knowledge though.
My chief worry is that there are no tried and tested "reputable" carbon deep rims out there with enough "holeage" to beef up the rim for bike packing and my mashing riding style. I realise that "reputable" may be a bit contentious and the Asian brands mentioned may be strong and aero, but there is little in the way of recorded testing on loaded bikes,  and I have also had negative feedback form a couple of sources. (including my wheel builder) 
Secondly, the aero benefits and free speed I'm fantasising about is likely massively reduced when ridden on a loaded mile muncher.
I'll probably stick with my Bel Hed rims. Have a new rear built up for next years event with some more aero spokes & use the $ saved to put in a nice "silent" onyx rear hub.
Aero advantage next year can be finaly shaving the legs and losing the mud guards.

[thing1]

FFWD rate some of their wheels for tandem use. This one comes in 24/28 config
http://ffwdshop.com/FFWD-Carbon-Wheels/FFWD-road-carbon-alloy-clincher/F6C-c

Pretty sure Enve also used to do high spoke counts but can't see them in the current line up

[morbihan]

FFWD rate some of their wheels for tandem use. This one comes in 24/28 config
http://ffwdshop.com/FFWD-Carbon-Wheels/FFWD-road-carbon-alloy-clincher/F6C-c

Pretty sure Enve also used to do high spoke counts but can't see them in the current line up

No high spoke on Enve (aside from mountain bike rims). Not sure they would take a wider tire either.
There is precious little info/stats out there on aero wheels used for bike packing.
for example, does building up an aero carbon wheel get nullified if you stick a big SON dynamo in the middle? Or loading down a bike with 10kg of bike pack gear; does that make the aero advantage useless?
I have a set of light climby mavic carbon disc wheels, and my wife has a set of 650b Bel Hed disc, which I'll nick for a bit.  I'll do some comparative rides with the bike loaded up for a race and see what the relative speed differences are. The other 2 wheel sets won't have a dynamo hub in the mix but it will at least give me something to go on. 
If, for example the benefits of the mavic rims is huge it will be worth pursuing, but if its small and you are getting the downside of a less bomb proof set up then best to stay with the current tractor wheels.

[zigzag]

i don't see any advantage of using aero wheels on rides like tcr (fwiw, my moving average was 18.9kph ). i'm able to notice reduced drag with aero wheels at speeds approaching 40kph and the faster you go the more benefit* you get. even if endurance races are called "races", in reality they are more like a non-stop audax or tour. top two riders this year used traditional wheels/rims (belgium+ and archetype) and had no problem.

*taking it to the extreme, i can hit 60kph on one stretch with a rear disc wheel, whereas pushing as hard as i can i can only manage 52-53kph on traditional ones.

[Samuel D]

*taking it to the extreme, i can hit 60kph on one stretch with a rear disc wheel, whereas pushing as hard as i can i can only manage 52-53kph on traditional ones.

Consider what that would imply about the wheels’ drag as a percentage of your total drag. Something else must have contributed to this speed difference.

[The French Tandem]

Am I the only one to think that "high spoke count carbon rims" is an oxymoron?

A

[Frank9755]

i don't see any advantage of using aero wheels on rides like tcr (fwiw, my moving average was 18.9kph ). i'm able to notice reduced drag with aero wheels at speeds approaching 40kph and the faster you go the more benefit* you get. even if endurance races are called "races", in reality they are more like a non-stop audax or tour. top two riders this year used traditional wheels/rims (belgium+ and archetype) and had no problem.

*taking it to the extreme, i can hit 60kph on one stretch with a rear disc wheel, whereas pushing as hard as i can i can only manage 52-53kph on traditional ones.

The % gains from better aeroz are bigger at higher speeds but at slower speeds you spend longer in the wind so they say slower riders save more absolute time.

The critical thing is the effective wind speed - ie the wind that you encounter at your 18.9kph.  So, if you had a 40kph cross-headwind, aero wheels would be giving you a lot of benefit.  If you had a tailwind, much less so.

How much? I don't know, and haven't tried to work it out properly, but I'd guesstimate of the order of a couple of hours over the course of a long race.  Likely to be much more worthwhile on a flatter, windy event like IndyPac or TABR, than a hillier one with a prevailing tailwind like TCR.  Aero wheels won't power the bike for you: will make nowhere near as much difference as optimising body position, pedalling slightly harder, taking fewer / shorter breaks or even getting rid of a dynamo, but still worth having, and will make more difference than shaving grammes off luggage weight.