Single-pivot sidepull callipers in 2017 (and beyond)

[hubner]

which single-pivot brakes are good, and how good is that? I like the look of Rogerzilla’s BR-6400 and Sheldon Brown’s favourite-ever BR-1050. But also silly things like antique Campagnolo.

Writing in 1998, Sheldon Brown said this about Campagnolo Record brakes: “The construction and design of the Campagnolo levers differed from the best of previous models as a Cannondale differs from a Huffy.” Maybe that explains the prices on eBay.

I've got this brake (Campagnolo Super/Nuovo Record) on my bikes, with original hoods and brake blocks. I think it's the best looking brake, but it works well enough ie can lock the wheel. Yes you need to squeeze relatively hard, braking from the hoods is no problem for me and I don't have big or especially strong hands.

The short reach version (47mm at the centre of the slot) works better then the standard reach (52mm) because of higher mechanical advantage, or more accurately the closer your clearances the better they work. The very last models had a slightly different shape in cross section and I think are a bit more rigid.

I've never used DP brakes so I don't know how SP compare with DP. I have used Campagnolo aero levers (the ones with white hoods), I seem to remember they made the braking feel spongier.

[Samuel D]

Thanks, hubner.

VeloBase shows a great array of Campagnolo Record brakes. This seems to be the late shape. The original was prettier.

Do you happen to know which models make most sense to purchase in NOS or excellent condition for using? Some of the prices I’m seeing must be driven by collectors.

And this at the above link sounds like a collector in full flow:

“These are the 1983-1987 variant of the Super Record caliper. The earlier 1974-1982 Super Record calipers are indistinguishable from Nuovo Record, for the pre-1982 SR groups shared the Nuovo calipers (which are the ones you describe with block lettering). Furthermore, Campagnolo failed to use the proper calipers when photographing the image for Catalog 18 (1985); a pair of Nuovo calipers are used. Additionally, the drawings on page #57 are lifted from Catalog 17, and show pre-1978 quick release levers on both the Super and Nuovo Record sets which isn't correct for either after 1978. These images cannot be relied on. Victory does look similar to the revised Super Record caliper, but it is differentiated by having a two-position quick release - not an adjustable cam - and a slightly different conical nut.”

You gotta love the customers who know more than the company does about its own products!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Yes, later Campag calipers had triangular sections, the earlier had semi-circular.

[Samuel D]

Triangular is an unexpected shape for the arms of a brake calliper, considering the bending and twisting stresses involved. Maybe finite-element analysis revealed that to make sense against my intuition. They’re not strictly triangular in section either, of course, and maybe that makes a large difference.

Anyway, having had a look, I think the prices of NOS or mint Super/C-/Nuovo/plain Record brakes and levers are out of my comfort zone. Probably I should try a humbler single-pivot brake before spending a fortune on brakes that might not work to my taste.

[Brucey]

BITD I raced with a NR equipped bike and I still have the groupset kicking around. They were good brakes, (and BITD they made sense because I could buy every single part as a spare) but I've used a lot of brakes before and since, and I would not go out of my way to buy similar brakes again if I wanted to use them in all weathers on a regular basis. This would count double if I needed to use longer reach variants so that I could fit mudguards beneath.

The reason is four-fold; first the market is indeed driven by loony collectors on the whole. Second the finish on the brakes, whilst good, is still prone to corrosion on some parts, third, spare parts are not so easy to find these days, fourth, you can get performance as good or better out of many different brakes these days.

Any NR/SR brake is a good brake but you can do as well or better and other brakes may (for various reasons) be more practical.

An anecdote; a few years ago a chum of mine who was planning on a new replacement (high end) road bike came to visit. We went out and did a day ride and I loaned him a road bike I had cobbled together from spare parts. It had a 753 frame, sprint wheels and mostly campag NR/SR parts. The main exception was the brakeset, which had worn BL-1051 levers (with custom made phosphor bronze pivot bushes installed) and blue finished short reach BR-1050 calipers, debadged except for the shimano logo. Obviously it was pretty well set up.  Since he'd not seen the blue finished calipers before, he didn't know what they were; he was sufficiently impressed with the brakeset performance that he enquired if the brakes were Dura-Ace ones or something.

 I don't blame him; I have owned and used both on the same bike and with the same cables and brake blocks in them I wouldn't be able to tell the difference with my eyes closed. Campag NR brakes are as not quite as good as either.

cheers

[hubner]

I don't think people are buying these brakes (SR/NR) now for their function alone. If you want single pivots, there's plenty of choice other Campagnolo.

There's also Camapgnolo's lower priced models: Gran Sport, Victory and Triomphe. And the post-1986 groupsets had SPs until the mid-90s(?), I had a look at the Veloce SP, what an ugly shapeless blob!

If you're buying a brake to use, you don't need NOS or mint, unless you actually do want NOS or mint!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Campag didn't use FEM to optimise brake caliper shape back then. The triangular arms were shaped by marketing as aero. I think that shape was first used on the 50th Anniversary brakes.

[Samuel D]

BR-1050 calipers […] he was sufficiently impressed with the brakeset performance that he enquired if the brakes were Dura-Ace ones or something

Those are the ones that Sheldon Brown, writing in the dual-pivot age, reckoned to be the best ever. However, you mentioned elsewhere that the BR-6400 was better engineered. How so? Just the fit and finish of the parts?

I don't think people are buying these brakes (SR/NR) now for their function alone. […] If you're buying a brake to use, you don't need NOS or mint, unless you actually do want NOS or mint!

You’re probably right. Clearly I like the look of the classic Campagnolo brakes. Both callipers and levers are timelessly beautiful with minimal decoration. NOS would guarantee the brakes would perform as they were designed to. There are too many ham-fisted mechanics out there!

Speaking of mechanics, Pardo has an interesting treatise on the pivot bearing in Record brakes here. Shimano and others later opted for ball bearings, but I’m curious whether those last as long. Pardo (again) shows these didn’t, though I’d rate Shimano’s engineering over Suntour’s (or anyone’s).

[Brucey]

BR-1050 calipers […] he was sufficiently impressed with the brakeset performance that he enquired if the brakes were Dura-Ace ones or something

Those are the ones that Sheldon Brown, writing in the dual-pivot age, reckoned to be the best ever. However, you mentioned elsewhere that the BR-6400 was better engineered. How so? Just the fit and finish of the parts?

I meant to add the caveat 'if arguably not as well finished'. BR-6400 calipers have a painted finish that, once breached, allows corrosion to set in. They do however have stainless steel inserts that help to protect the finish where the brake blocks mount.

It is also worth looking at various exage caliper models; some are (unlike BR-1050) in a polished rather than anodised finish, which means that the arms  can easily be brought back to 'new appearance' by polishing. Some models have no QR on the caliper which suits levers with QR built in, or bike where it is not necessary.

If you want a thinking man's non-aero lever, consider weinmann Carrera levers. These have a better build quality than standard weinmann levers, the same shape as campag NR, accept the same hood as campag levers IIRC, and the pivot location means the levers arguably give a more powerful, progressive action in the second half of the lever travel. 

cheers

[jsabine]

As with the Lamborghini, the aero Trek will be sold at fantastic price to people who don’t derive functional benefit from it, the benefits being anyway chiefly imaginary. It’s sold on an image of performance that is neither realistic nor relevant, while falling short in ways that matter to anyone who does more than a few miles here and there in sunshine. If it’s like the bicycles I see on the road, in a couple of years it will be a rattly, unsafe mess with several bodged repairs to keep bits of it from falling into the road. It will have an incongruous seatbag, assorted detritus on the handlebar, and maybe even an Ass Saver. At this time of year there will probably be lamps clumsily strapped front and rear.

The reviewer should ask what justifies this charade.

Is the reader permitted to ask what harm is done to you by these bicycles (or indeed cars), or their purchasers, in order to provoke such a rant?



Me, I just settle for giving my inner inverse snob free reign.

[Brucey]

some photos;

weinmann Carrera levers






Campag SR levers for comparison of lever body shape



Various campag lever appearances

BTW I think the above photo is incomplete (there are more different versions I think) and it also makes it look as if the levers are more different in shape than they really are, probably because the photo is a composite of several, not all taken in the same way.

cheers

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'm not sure if it was Weinmann Carrera levers I had in the late 80s or some similar looking Weinmann lever, but I do remember feeling those holes, although irrelevant in weight saving and probably negative in aerodynamics, gave a better grip than smooth metal.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The holes aren't for weight saving. The drilled Campag SR brake levers were heavier than the undrilled NR levers.

[Brucey]

yup, the metal is thicker in the drilled lever versions.  The smooth levers ( eg GS, NR, Tri) are kind of slippy at times.

cheers

[Cudzoziemiec]

So the whole point of the holes is for grip, which I thought was a useful side effect? Albeit more useful than what I thought was the intended point. Well, I guess that's sensible!

Or is there another point to it too?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Looks/ marketing.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That's an eternal!

[Brucey]

drillium was the go-faster fad of its day; a bit like wheels without enough spokes in them are these days....

BTW decent brake calipers that ape the shape of campag side pulls include BR-6207 and BR-6208.  They are worth a look too.

cheers

[rogerzilla]

I had some of those drillium Weinmann levers.  The brakes that went with them had a major design flaw - to save weight, they used an alloy bolt/spindle.  The hex on the end rounded off the first time I used the Weinmann centreing tool.   I had to rebuild them onto steel bolts from cheaper Weinmann brakes.  Even then, they would barely stop the bike.  Weinmann made total crap by the 1980s.

[hubner]

The short reach version (47mm at the centre of the slot) works better then the standard reach (52mm) because of higher mechanical advantage, or more accurately the closer your clearances the better they work.

The very last models had a slightly different shape in cross section and I think are a bit more rigid.

To reply to myself, I don't have my standard reach callipers on hand, but I've had a look at some photos and it seems the two different versions (short and standard reach) are in proportion in overall shape; the cable adjuster to cable pinch bolt distance is longer on the deeper drop version.

The short reach would have less flex I suppose as the cross section stays the same.

Re the later cross section shape, I'm not sure they are more rigid, I've got them on bikes with closer clearances and it could that which makes feel more powerful.

[Samuel D]

They do however have stainless steel inserts that help to protect the finish where the brake blocks mount.

That’s a neat touch that hasn’t often been used since, at least on both faces of each arm.

Is the reader permitted to ask what harm is done to you by these bicycles (or indeed cars), or their purchasers, in order to provoke such a rant?

I’d prefer the reader didn’t, it being the season of goodwill and all. But if that reader promises to remain good-humoured, I will say that my objection is the elimination of useful products in favour of impractical novelty. I preferred it when benevolent engineers designed products for the users’ needs rather than their irrational wants. That, alongside glaring scarcity, produced excellent products in the past and would produce even better ones today, thanks to improvements in design and manufacturing. My wants and needs coincide more closely than many people’s, since I’m that way inclined and I read and think about this problem more. I also live in an expensive city on a shoestring budget. Consequently I too often cannot find what I want, whether that be bicycles, cars, or other durable goods. That is frustrating.

Old brakes, though. If I found Shimano callipers with an external nut (some of the BR-6400s were like this), I suppose there would be no problem getting a frame-builder to make me a frame for externally nutted brakes in the future. Then I could either use the Shimanos on that frame or have the possibility of using antique Campagnolos. The downside would be running externally nutted callipers on my present frame made for recessed brakes, although Brucey thinks that’s doable.

I’ll see what’s on the used market in the new year.

[tatanab]

The downside would be running externally nutted callipers on my present frame made for recessed brakes, although Brucey thinks that’s doable.

Easily done.  I did it about 25 years ago.  You need a sleeve nut such as one half of a Campag style seat bolt, drill the thread out so that the brake shaft fits through.  This then gives you a nice flat surface for the nut of your nutted brake to sit on.  I guess the allen key sleeve nut as used on modern brakes may work just as well as the seat bolt one, depending on the fork crown/rear bridge design.

[mzjo]

The downside would be running externally nutted callipers on my present frame made for recessed brakes, although Brucey thinks that’s doable.

Easily done.  I did it about 25 years ago.  You need a sleeve nut such as one half of a Campag style seat bolt, drill the thread out so that the brake shaft fits through.  This then gives you a nice flat surface for the nut of your nutted brake to sit on.  I guess the allen key sleeve nut as used on modern brakes may work just as well as the seat bolt one, depending on the fork crown/rear bridge design.

I am doing it at present with my Gitane frame (1990 vintage). I use a tip from somewhere on this forum, the locking ring from a Presta valve fits nicely. Alternatively new Shimano brake sets are supplied with a selection of sleeve nuts so there are always 4 left over which can be suitably modified for other uses. (My brakes are vintage CLBs which are, I think, a very nice brake indeed).

[Brucey]

FWIW I have just laid my hands on a set of BL-6209 brake levers, which I had forgotten even existed. These are aero levers which are designed to work with SP brakes, and were part of the 6200 groupset's swansong.



I think they are basically built the same as the DA 7400 aero levers; the cast body includes the flange between the rubber hood and the lever itself, so are unlikely to be damaged, unlike the plastic flanges on other shimano brake levers.

They have a 4:1 MA, so will give good power even with lowish MA calipers.

cheers

[Samuel D]

Not bad, although finding replacement hoods may be a job. That is one of the nice things about old Campagnolo levers for which new hoods are still widely available from third-party manufacturers.

Too many Shimano products have endless, tiny changes that seemingly add nothing useful but break compatibility. Think of brake-lever hoods, freehub bodies, hubs generally, etc. When Campagnolo made a cheaper component it was basically a Record part with less spit and polish! And they made essentially unchanged parts for decades.

If I change my brake levers, it will likely be to non-aero ones to facilitate cable maintenance.

Having been on the lookout for bargains since I started this thread, I eventually found a pair of early-80s Campagnolo Super Record brake callipers in practically new condition for a derisory price. They are gorgeous to behold. However, they are recessed-nut mount. I haven’t decided what to do with them yet, in part because finding bargain-priced Campagnolo brake levers to go with them has proven more difficult.

Meanwhile I need to replace the brake pads on my Shimano BR-R650s again.