If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?

[phil d]

Some very interesting points in FF's post - thank you for making them.

I find the published results a fascinating resource.  I don't think it changes the amount of audaxing I do (let's face it, I shall never be challenging for the points title), but it is interesting to see what other events that people I've met on rides have done - this might well influence what I enter next year.

I don't much care how competitive or otherwise the points chasing becomes by those that want to do that - it impacts on me not a jot, though it can be fun to watch someone accruing a vast points (or AAA) total.  My competition is just me, against me, the machine, the road and/or the elements (for the record, the machine won twice, the road once, and the elements twice over the last 10 years).  I suspect that the vast majority of my fellow audaxers take much the same position.

In respect of the costs, if the amount of revenue lost due to "DNFs" became significant I guess the club would need to address it.  Relatively easy to do by requiring DNFs to be recorded on the official return, though open to abuse if an organiser decided not to include them.  But where do you stop?  What about DNSs?

[arabella]

In the mid-noughties there was again a lot of 'competitiveness' concern which I remember being discussed in committee - there is always the option to not publish some or all of the results stuff, but in fact all we did was to remove the points listing in points order, and replace it with an alphabetical listing.  

Ah, I wondered where it had gone - I wasn't bothered about the change to alphabetical order but the women-only listing disappeared at the same time - I quite liked seeing how other testosterone-lesser folks were faring, it's a bit hard to find them now, so I just vaguely wonder instead.

[Martin]

In respect of the costs, if the amount of revenue lost due to "DNFs" became significant I guess the club would need to address it.  Relatively easy to do by requiring DNFs to be recorded on the official return, though open to abuse if an organiser decided not to include them.  But where do you stop?  What about DNSs?

a simple way to address this is to have a single fee for each brevet card which is payable whether the riders complete / validate it or not

[Euan Uzami]

a matter of pride for the organiser -  a measure of how good their audax is could be taken as how few DNFs there are.

Well actually, the only person who knows this is the Org themselves.

Yes, I know, sorry - I meant a measure for the organiser.
I meant that by deliberately 'falsely' (or, it could be argued, even accidentally/non-falsely, but that is another debate) DNFing, it is just a bit rude to the organiser themselves - nothing to do with other people's ability to use DNF stats as a rating system to guage whether an audax is any good.
Whether DNF stats should be published or not (possibly for that reason) is, again, another debatable matter...

[Jaded]

In respect of the costs, if the amount of revenue lost due to "DNFs" became significant I guess the club would need to address it.  Relatively easy to do by requiring DNFs to be recorded on the official return, though open to abuse if an organiser decided not to include them.  But where do you stop?  What about DNSs?

a simple way to address this is to have a single fee for each brevet card which is payable whether the riders complete / validate it or not

Or the organisers pay for the number of starters (with cards), not finishers? If the riders are not handing in Brevet cards it suggests they have them and if they have them, they must have paid for them?

[Manotea]

In respect of the costs, if the amount of revenue lost due to "DNFs" became significant I guess the club would need to address it.  Relatively easy to do by requiring DNFs to be recorded on the official return, though open to abuse if an organiser decided not to include them.  But where do you stop?  What about DNSs?

a simple way to address this is to have a single fee for each brevet card which is payable whether the riders complete / validate it or not

Or the organisers pay for the number of starters (with cards), not finishers? If the riders are not handing in Brevet cards it suggests they have them and if they have them, they must have paid for them?

The payment for different elements is much more.. granular than that. The Orgs pays for Brevets before the event, for validation after.

If there is a concern that AUK is missing out on income from DNS/DNFs then the AUK valiation cost might be rolled into the Brevet cost leaving only the BRM validation cost to be paid after the event (Back Off, Brus..., er, Paris).

However this increases the Orgs financial exposure in ordering the correct number of Brevets, which would likely increase requirement for entry in advance. [Some Orgs order a base number of pre-printed Brevets and have a stock of blanks to print up locally as demand requires].

Regardless, this isnt necessarily a real problem. ISTM very marginal. Unless the sums are significant at AUK level and AUK especially needs the money then this might not be a problem that needs fixing.

[phil d]

I don't think we should get too bagged down with this - FF only noted it as a potential problem.  It doesn't seem to be just now.

[frankly frankie]

If there is a concern that AUK is missing out on income from DNS/DNFs then the AUK valiation cost might be rolled into the Brevet cost leaving only the BRM validation cost to be paid after the event (Back Off, Brus..., er, Paris).

Straying off topic, sorry -
no there is no such concern AFAIK.  I simply mention that an individual who witholds their card from the validation process is not 'playing the game' in much the same way as an individual who declines to vote at a general election (holds hand up here) is open to disapproval in some people's eyes.  ie, if everyone behaved like that, it would be a problem.  When only a few do, it isn't.

And the problem with transferring all charges to the Brevet Cards as ordered for the event, is that many Organisers are remarkably mean about this already, eg under-ordering then making photocopies, or utilising old stock left over from previous events, etc - all to save a penny or two.  This would get worse if all charges were transferred to the cards.

Anyway, the future surely is each entrant printing off their own personalised event card from online, as part of the entry process.  AUK will have to find another way to take in the money.

</ off topic>

Competitive?  Well, here's a thing.  I stopped riding audaxes a few years ago when a change in work patterns made it difficult for me to stay fit enough to ride them fast, finishing in say the first 20% of the field.  I could still ride and finish at or near the tail of the field - but that has no attraction to me whatsoever.  There's no logic to it - I'm well aware that in this sport, in some ways the slowest riders are its highest achievers - and they get all my respect - but it's just not me, sorry.

[mattc]

And the problem with transferring all charges to the Brevet Cards as ordered for the event, is that many Organisers are remarkably mean about this already, eg under-ordering then making photocopies, or utilising old stock left over from previous events, etc - all to save a penny or two.  This would get worse if all charges were transferred to the cards.

Do they mean me ... ?     
I don't want to reduce the AUK take, but reusing Brevet Cards vs over-ordering the things seems an obvious green thing to do. No doubt I'll be shot down by the
"don't bring politics into bike riding" brigade, but I hate waste, and those thick glossy multi-coloured cards going in the bin really irritates me.

Ordering blanks seems like the workaround - but I note the Event Planner makes it deliberately difficult to print off inlays to stick in!

Incidentally, I would think this behaviour is far more prevalent on BPs, where I feel AUK contributes much less to the event [running a BP is like marketing for AUK, isn't it? ]

Anyway, the future surely is each entrant printing off their own personalised event card from online, as part of the entry process.

Yup,  I'm surprised noone else has mentioned this - it seems the logical progression, given riders are doing this with routesheets already. Would save time at the start too.

[Martin]

If there is a concern that AUK is missing out on income from DNS/DNFs then the AUK valiation cost might be rolled into the Brevet cost leaving only the BRM validation cost to be paid after the event (Back Off, Brus..., er, Paris).

Straying off topic, sorry -
no there is no such concern AFAIK.  I simply mention that an individual who witholds their card from the validation process is not 'playing the game' in much the same way as an individual who declines to vote at a general election (holds hand up here) is open to disapproval in some people's eyes

I've only met a few refusniks in this respect; some are non AUK's who are happy to blast round a 100 for the small entry fee and can't be bothered with the infos so don't fill them in; they are presumably not aware that they have already paid for the card to be validated but there's not much I can do with their cards except recycle them (no not on another event!) even if they have ridden the whole distance and it makes no odds whether they are validated or not in the scheme of things; although a few extra finishers might help boost AUK's figures.

the others are riders who are happy to ride around a DIY / Perm 200 and CNBA with the paperwork to get it validated

[teethgrinder]

So I think competitiveness - whatever form it takes - is much more about the individual personalities involved, than anything else.

I agree. I've seem more competitive riding from people riding 200s than I've seen in some (but not all) points chasers who've bagged over 200 points in a season.
AUK doesn't seem to have much to offer after 100 points in a season though, which I think is a shame. Points chasing is points chasing howeve few or many you are aiming for. The championship/points award is just to acknowledge the person who has gained the most points that season (as long as it complies with the 50% rule)
I think it's a shame that once you've got 100 points that there are no other tagrets to aim for, except maybe your own personal goals.
It saddens me a bit too. When I began Audaxing, I was inspired by points chasers (among others) and I doubt that I'd have done anywhere near as much as I have if it wasn't for them. I hope that what I've done has encouraged others to do more or even do some. I think that once you get more people doing more, it has a knock on effect and there is more of a spirit in long distance cycling, rather than a few lone riders doing big rides alone. Having lots of riders getting over 200 points in a season is much better than one loon getting 400 one season, once. But maybe that one loon with 400 points will be joined by the others in years to come while a new loon achieves 500 in a season? I bet that in the early days of AUK that not many would have guessed that several people would gain over 100 points in a season as regularly as happens now.
I think that AUK has spent too much time in the last 15 years worrying about whether it's competitive or not instead of the more important issue of encouraging long distance cycling.
I joined AUK for long distance cycling, but sometimes I think that it is long distance cycling, but with limits.

Competitive?  Well, here's a thing.  I stopped riding audaxes a few years ago when a change in work patterns made it difficult for me to stay fit enough to ride them fast, finishing in say the first 20% of the field.  I could still ride and finish at or near the tail of the field - but that has no attraction to me whatsoever.  There's no logic to it - I'm well aware that in this sport, in some ways the slowest riders are its highest achievers - and they get all my respect - but it's just not me, sorry.

These rides are great fun if you're fit and can get your sleep. But when you're up aginst the time limit, they really are tough. I've been at both ends of the field and the slow end is definitely tougher, unless you're there for tactical reasons (eg, it's a tough ride and you're not going to flog yourself when you know that you can stay just in time very comfortably without flogging yourself)
A lot of very fit and fast riders take an early bath when they find that they're not going as fast as they planned. It doesn't nesecarily make them competitive though. It's psychological. I know how it feels to go from riding at evens to be struggling to manage 10mph. It's very demoralising, or at least, it can be.
I strongly suspect that the longest standing active members of AUK are the ones that can happily ride slowly. I've noticed that most of the fast riders who do a lot of Audax don't seem to last as many years as the plodders. Not that all of those that are happy to plod are always slow.

[teethgrinder]

the others are riders who are happy to ride around a DIY / Perm 200 and CNBA with the paperwork to get it validated

Some silly fool did that with the Grand Triangle about 12 years ago.

[Gareth Rees]

Anyway, the future surely is each entrant printing off their own personalised event card from online, as part of the entry process.

How would that work on a route with info controls?

[Manotea]

Anyway, the future surely is each entrant printing off their own personalised event card from online, as part of the entry process.

How would that work on a route with info controls?

Riders could collect them when they sign on. They could be printed on stickers to go in the brevet or simply on a piece of A6 paper to be kept with the Brevet.

[3peaker]

Of course Audax is Competitive.  Well, it is to me and I look at my Palmares and think ‘for how much longer?’  Will I have to go Titanium to keep within the time limit?  My first Audax challenge was in 1982, when I gained my first SR.  Being a TT-ist I used Audax as long-distance TT training.  I dabbled for a few years, opted out while serving in Germany and lost my low member number (0242?). I added a Trike SR as a challenge in 1993 and rode Trike PBP in 1995.  All these were personal challenges.  Following retirement in 2001, I found Audax was my preferred form of cycling, with Randonnee 5000, Ultra SR, Randonneur 25000 challenges meeting my wheels.  After a Trike blast in 2006, last year was a really competitive challenge; based on LEL for a potential 14 points, I went Trike mad and with a variety of early planning, good fortune and luck, emerged with the Trike Trophy, a new Trike Record and, to add cream, the Veteran’s Trophy.  As for speed, back in 1982 I was regularly in the first group home (or even home solo).  Now, I do not care for position; it is finishing in time that matters. It is something to do with age, something about equipment, something about ambition, something about enjoyment, something about fatigue.  Amassing loads-o-points blows out the red-blood count and mineral balance, so you are never fully recovered ride to ride.  Doing Trafalgar-Trafalgar (3100km with continuous 14hr days at 200km) was a real battle to keep up the minerals balance.

If you check the names of Trophy winners, many now form the History of Audax UK.  But without their inspiration, endeavour and enthusiasm, the current crop would have no yardstick against which to measure.  Also, many come into Audax from a touring base; I came in from a TT base, so my outlook might have a different complexion.

SteveP