Cross Training: Rowing

[Manotea]

Oh yes, one more question, I couldn't see any reference to resistance level above - how do you decide what resistance level to use?

There's a sequence here: Cross Training: Rowing

Hmm, I use level '8'...

[simonp]

I always use level 4. I used to find 1500m hard. 5000m at 20:30 or so is now not challenging. Under 20:00 is where it starts to push me hard. I wish to do a 18:59 one day.

For my age/weight/sex group the 25th centile is 19:45. So yesterday's 19:41 is not stellar.

[saturn]

OK thanks Chris S & Manotea. I've been using resistance 7 or 8, I tried putting it down to 5 on Monday and I seemed to struggle to do my normal distance in the same time but that might have been because I was faffing about trying to improve my technique rather than putting in the effort.

Maybe lower resistance will make the jump from 1km to 2km more palatable so I'll try 2km at level 4 and then work on trying to improve whatever time that brings in. I guess lower resistance will also mean it'll be less likely to impact on other exercises afterwards too.

[simonp]

Technique is a big factor.  Most people are probably over-using their arms.  I generally reduce the stroke rate nowadays compared to what I used to.  When I do a 20:30 I'll average 23spm.

[Panoramix]

A lower setting force you to row at a higher rate, as Simon says the most common pitfall is to use only your arms.

In rowing clubs they start coaching you how to use your legs and body and then make you increase the rate. A good amateur crew will rate 30 spm at "cruising speed" with everybody still pushing hard on their legs. Sprinting is generally achieved by increasing the rate and force output jointly.

I haven't rowed for ages so I am now just an armchair rower 

[simonp]

I've never really experimented with anything other than 4 which is supposed to be closest to rowing on the water.

[saturn]

OK 4 it is, I'd been fooled by the fact that invariably when I get to the rowing m/c whichever young lady was using it before me has left it on 8-10 so I allowed myself small discount on account of my age and lardiness.

[mike]

problem is, '4' can vary quite a lot between machines.  Sometimes (if the fan is clogged up with crap) you need to open it right up to 7 or 8 to get the same resistance.   

If you can be arsed, try and find the Drag Factor buried in the settings and follow instructions (you just take a couple of strokes), anything from 100-120 is 'normal'.

or just put it on 4. 

Dropping from 8 - 4 will feel weird at first but if you really think about using legs, not your arms then it does get easier (promise) 

[Manotea]

YACF 'affiliation' now available through your concept2 log. Now to work out what to do with it.

Did another 5km last night, around 21m again. Thats three in a row. Gosh.

Started on level 4 but poked it back to 8 before 200m because it felt too much like hard work from a CV point of view.

Edit: I think I'm going to have to have another look at my technique to make level 4 work.

[simonp]

As I said, I've never really experimented much with anything other than 4, except when a gym suggested level 8 as part of a programme.

I used to find it very hard and would have my HR in the 170s (when 10+ years younger) doing paces much slower than 2:00/500m.

I got some technique advice from a colleague who's a rower.

Now I will do 2:04/500m and my HR averages around 150-155 over 5000m.  It does creep up during the workout, but my pace tends to also as I get more into it.

Nowadays maintaining 1:57ish puts my HR in the mid-170s.  So that's easier than, say, climbing the Devil's Staircase.

[Marco Stefano]

Saturn,

If you have not rowed much before and that at higher drag levels, reducing the drag can make it tricky to maintain the same split times as muscles need to fire in turn more quickly at the same rating. Higher drag can be hard on the lower back though, particularly on C2 ergos (rather than WaterRowers or Rowperfects).

I would suggest using drag factor around 110-120 (probably about 4 or 5 on the fan damper setting) and trying some low rating stuff (16 - 18 strokes a min) to train your leg muscles to push harder; lower drag gives some resistance to push against at the start of the stroke, but you can accelerate into the stroke more quickly than with higher drag.

Bizarrely, some studies have shown that short (<1 min) flat out interval training can have a significant effect on endurance. Not sure if it crosses from rowing to cycling. Although both are leg-pushing sports, I think rowing uses more gluteals, and cycling quadriceps (there may be an exercise physiologist along soon to blow that one out of the water...)

Hope that helps, have fun...

Marco (Isle of Ely RC)

[saturn]

Thanks Marco, that makes sense and is useful. No I've never rowed, only recently started going to the gym to kill time while my daughter's training in the pool. Yes my gym has C2s. I'll give it a go next week and might take my HRM to compare with cycling effort.

[saturn]

OK my initial benchmark for 2km is 9:53. I used drag level 4, sprint for first and final 200m at just over 40 s/min, the rest was mid 30s which seems high considering the distance wasn't ticking up very fast so not sure what that says about technique - strokes seemed too short maybe because I was trying not to use arms much. Forgot to press button at start to track heart rate but it finished at 185 which is 90% my cycling MHR.

I was pleased I managed to maintain the same pace that I've been doing 1km at, didn't feel like I would be able to at 1km but managed to keep it up.

[simonp]

Your stroke rates seem very high. I sprint at 35spm doing 1:37/500. I row typically at 23spm. Around 2:00-2:05/500 depending on if I am making an effort. I might creep up to 25spm if rowing a bit harder.

[andrew w]

I started my "Holiday Challenge" metres off last night with 7000 metres in 30:54.1.  That's 500m pace of 2:12.4, which I didn't think was too bad for a row in freezing conditions - the rowing machine is in my detached unheated garage.  I had the damper on 3, which is about normal for me, and I was rowing at about 24 spm.

[simonp]

I started my "Holiday Challenge" metres off last night with 7000 metres in 30:54.1.  That's 500m pace of 2:12.4, which I didn't think was too bad for a row in freezing conditions - the rowing machine is in my detached unheated garage.  I had the damper on 3, which is about normal for me, and I was rowing at about 24 spm.

I haven't started yet.  I still have a slightly productive cough in the mornings and green snot.

[simonp]

I have now; yesterday 1000m warm up, 5000m at a steady pace. Then 500m swim. Today 1000m warmup then 7299m (30 mins) and 1000m swim.

So that is 14299m and puts me ahead of schedule.

[Manotea]

Having grabbed a lift home from the AUK AGM, I opened my account this afternoon with 8km.

Are you sure that 299m counts, simonp? Surely it's just an overdistance 7km!

[simonp]

Having grabbed a lift home from the AUK AGM, I opened my account this afternoon with 8km.

Are you sure that 299m counts, simonp? Surely it's just an overdistance 7km!

It's not Audax!

Yes, all metres count. It's not a 7km it's a 30 minute row (ie fixed time, not fixed distance) which is one of the standard workouts that can be ranked on the concept ii website.

(Just in case, I checked. The total shown is 14,299m)

[saturn]

OK my initial benchmark for 2km is 9:53. I used drag level 4....

9:42 tonight, still on drag level 4, tried to lengthen the strokes but, except a bit of a spurt for the final 200m, I maintained a steady 33-36 s/m throughout so clearly I'm still doing something wrong. Might try putting the drag up just a bit, I'm trying to do most of the work with my legs but it doesn't feel like they're doing enough, as though there's not enough resistance 

[Panoramix]

OK my initial benchmark for 2km is 9:53. I used drag level 4....

9:42 tonight, still on drag level 4, tried to lengthen the strokes but, except a bit of a spurt for the final 200m, I maintained a steady 33-36 s/m throughout so clearly I'm still doing something wrong. Might try putting the drag up just a bit, I'm trying to do most of the work with my legs but it doesn't feel like they're doing enough, as though there's not enough resistance 

This is a classic symptom of the back not being stiff enough. You push with your legs but all the energy goes in curving your back. You must sit up with your shoulders slightly backwards and keep the back straight during the stroke as if it was stiff.

[simonp]

Tonight: 1000m warm up then 5000m in 20:08.8. I rowed the final 1000m at sub 1:55/500m - around 26spm. When I pushed harder for the final 100m at 1:48 I hit 27spm. Arms a bit heavy in the pool plus I'm making it harder doing 2 lengths / 1 length crawl/breast instead of 1/1. So I did only 20 lengths.

I've done more than 1/5 the challenge and it's only taken 3 days. Now I thinking of trying to do the 200,000m challenge...

[saturn]

Thanks Panoramix I'll pay more attention to that. I'd previously been trying to follow <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/eqVmMd7FdAA&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/eqVmMd7FdAA&rel=1</a> but while the straight back is mentioned it's not so obvious as in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/l8IsN_nOQYc&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/l8IsN_nOQYc&rel=1</a> which is helpful.

I'm struggling to see how this will make me quicker though. As well as preventing injury, I can see that better technique might enable me to maintain a given stroke rate for a given time at a higher resistance (thus improving speed)  but I just can't figure out how it'll make me quicker while reducing the stroke rate at a low resistance given that if anything it will shorten the length of the stroke. This is what leads me to believe I need to use a higher resistance but get the technique right so I don't hurt my lower back.

[Panoramix]

Thanks Panoramix I'll pay more attention to that. I'd previously been trying to follow <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/eqVmMd7FdAA&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/eqVmMd7FdAA&rel=1</a> but while the straight back is mentioned it's not so obvious as in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/l8IsN_nOQYc&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/l8IsN_nOQYc&rel=1</a> which is helpful.

I'm struggling to see how this will make me quicker though. As well as preventing injury, I can see that better technique might enable me to maintain a given stroke rate for a given time at a higher resistance (thus improving speed)  but I just can't figure out how it'll make me quicker while reducing the stroke rate at a low resistance given that if anything it will shorten the length of the stroke. This is what leads me to believe I need to use a higher resistance but get the technique right so I don't hurt my lower back.

The logic behind is that if you push the seat backward by a certain amount with your legs, you want your shoulders travel the same distance. If you don't have a "strong" back,  back flexes reducing the travel of your shoulders so you have say 3 inches left and the rest is lost in deforming your back.

To train the best is to start at say 15 strokes per minutes. Seat on the machine, flex your legs, sit up (seat is forward) then push on your legs making sure your body is completely rigid (except the legs of course), once your legs are straight, use you stomach muscles to lean backward  - by now arms and legs stay straight - and once you feel like you are close to fall backward finish the stroke by pulling on your arms. Keep the leg, stomach muscle and arm actions separate don't worry about the split time, focus on keeping the three actions separate and feel the force in the chord travelling from your hands to your feet.

Once you are a bit more confident carry on with the same motion pushing as hard as you can as if you were trying to break the foot rests; you should see the split time going down dramatically (with the same stroke rate).

Once you master this, up the rate; at some point you will loose the coordination, don't panic just go down a few strokes per minutes and  everything will go back together. After a few months 35 strokes per minute will feel "natural".

You may have attended one of these H&S training when they teach you to avoid back injuries by lifting with a straight back pushing on your leg, the feeling is somehow similar. When you feel the pressure under your feet it means you are doing things right.

My PB in 2003 for a 2k was 7:05 after just 6 months of serious training and having just stopped smoking so I guess that the coaching was good! I have stopped because of other commitments but I am sure that I would eventually have broken the 6:50 barrier when people start to actually want you in their boat!

[simonp]

1000m warm up then 10000m in 41:48.5. Well off my pb but I was pacing myself til the red mist set in with 2500m to go. Now shoulder exercises bicycle abs (ugh) and a swim.