Equality question (may be in wrong place)

[Tewdric]

In fact, whilst there are no rules specific to the hillclimb, the following bit of text is on the club's website:

"CTC is fully committed to the principles of equality of opportunity and is responsible for ensuring that no job applicant, councillor, employee, volunteer or member receives less favourable treatment on the grounds of age, gender, disability, race, ethnic origin, nationality, colour, parental or marital status, pregnancy, religious belief, sexual orientation or political belief."

(The bits I've made bold are those relevant to this argument.)

In other words, they're not allowed to stop me from having the overall trophy because I'm a woman, yet they are trying to do so by awarding the winner's trophy to a man who I did better than.  As a result, he will falsely be recorded as having won when in actuality, it was me - by quite a considerable margin.

So, they're not only breaking their own rules but national rules as well.

It sounds like they should award you both the trophies.

Having said that, I wouldn't join a cycling club that would have me as a member.

[Katie]

In fact, whilst there are no rules specific to the hillclimb, the following bit of text is on the club's website:

"CTC is fully committed to the principles of equality of opportunity and is responsible for ensuring that no job applicant, councillor, employee, volunteer or member receives less favourable treatment on the grounds of age, gender, disability, race, ethnic origin, nationality, colour, parental or marital status, pregnancy, religious belief, sexual orientation or political belief."

(The bits I've made bold are those relevant to this argument.)

In other words, they're not allowed to stop me from having the overall trophy because I'm a woman, yet they are trying to do so by awarding the winner's trophy to a man who I did better than.  As a result, he will falsely be recorded as having won when in actuality, it was me - by quite a considerable margin.

So, they're not only breaking their own rules but national rules as well.

It sounds like they should award you both the trophies.

Well, yes - I was both the overall winner and the best woman.  But I think that might be pushing my luck just a little

I don't need (or want) both trophies.  The overall winner's trophy recognises that I beat everyone; the women's trophy only recognises that I beat all the women.  So, I want the overall one, as it celebrates more.

As I actually won it, it shouldn't be too much to ask, but apparently the club sec has playground mentality of not being beaten by a girl despite leaving school many years before I was even born...

[Cudzoziemiec]

In general, I reckon it makes sense to either have just one trophy, or to have separate men's and women's trophies. In the latter case there is no overall trophy, and in the former case the winner gets the only trophy whether they are male or female or any mixture thereof. I don't think winner and "opposite sex" trophies make much sense.

In this specific case, it seems you're dealing with a situation which was invented to satisfy the sexist whims of one individual, so whatever you do is going to have to depend on how you judge it best to deal with him.

[Jaded]

Give everybody who enters a prize.

[Basil]

OK.  What we need is for several androgynous types *looks over glasses at several YACF members* to enter next year.
Hopefully, one of them will win and then refuse to declare which sex they are.


That's you Flatus. 

[Katie]

In this specific case, it seems you're dealing with a situation which was invented to satisfy the sexist whims of one individual, so whatever you do is going to have to depend on how you judge it best to deal with him.

The option of an opposite sex trophy doesn't make a whole pile of sense, no - but it may be the best hope at getting the sexist arses to agree to give the overall winner the overall trophy.

Extract of an email I sent one of them earlier today.  Hopefully they will realise I mean business now

Further, Harry explicitly said that I had "won" the women's trophy at
the pub afterwards (and then when I challenged him on it admitted
that yes, I'd won overall but had to take the women's trophy).

I don't think anybody is suggesting that the old women's trophy is
thrown away.  It can be shown in the clubroom as memory to those who
won it before.  The simple fact is that a freewheel is not as
physically tasking and anyone can win it; the idea that men would win
it because they are heavier is rubbish as you can see by the fact that
last year, the lightest person on the lightest bike won both the
hillclimb and the freewheel, and the fact that I and my mum (and
possibly other women as well?) have won outright despite not being
male.  As such, you don't need to present a women's trophy to
recognise the best freewheeling woman, not really.

If the club wants to present a women's trophy... fine.  I don't mind.
I really couldn't care less how many trophies there are.  BUT, there
is a serious problem with only ever handing the overall trophy to a
man when a woman has done better than all the men.  Stuart, you say
yourself that the trophies are there to record the winner.  Why, in
that case, is it okay to say a man won when he didn't, and fob the
woman off with the women's trophy?

The winner should get the overall trophy.  No matter what gender they
are.  The women's trophy is not really necessary for this competition.
 Hillclimb, yes.  Freewheel, no.  If you want to keep it, stick it in
the clubroom, or rebrand it so it's the trophy for the winner of the
opposite sex as Audax UK do.  Don't pretend a guy won when he didn't;
it's just plain wrong.  You can't argue on this point - by doing it,
the club is, plain and simple, lying about who won the competition.

Finally, I just want to note that according to CTC's
equality/diversity policy which is reproduced on the SMCTC website,
the club pledges not to discriminate against anyone.  By recording a
man as winner when it was, in fact, a woman, the club is
discriminating against that woman by refusing to record her accurately
as the winner.  I wonder if CTC headquarters might have something to
say about that?

[Feline]

 

I would also be somewhat p****d off to not get the winners trophy, and I think you're right not to let this go. If the winner's trophy was labelled 'men's trophy' then it would be a different matter, but it isn't. It's a matter of principal innit.

[rogerzilla]

One of the members has said that for equality purposes the ladies' Hill Climb trophy should also be discontinued if the motion is passed.

In my opinion in a Hill Climb men have an advantage, having greater lung capacity, so it is different to a Freewheel, which is a more open competition.  But I am now concerned about whether it will in fact be discriminatory to have mens' and womens' trophies for the Hill Climb.

Of course we could have two trophies for each competition, with the actual winner getting the main trophy and having the other for the "winner of the opposite sex".

What does the panel think?

Surely men - being generally bigger/heavier/lardier - have an advantage on the freewheel competition (not that I am suggesting....). Anyways, Winner and 'Opposite Sex' awards would get my vote.

I won the CTC freewheel competition when I entered a few years ago.  It seemed to be a function of two things:

- Tyre rolling resistance
- The ability to balance at 0.25mph without falling off

Aerodynamics barely came into it, since the peak speed was probably less than 10mph.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Smooth wheel hub bearings probably play a part, too. And having your bike extra clean gives it that vital 0.1% advantage in reducing air turbulence. 

Back on topic, I wonder how the man who won the overall trophy but actually came (presumably) second, feels about this? Is his conscience nagging at him? Does he actually think he's got the men's trophy, not the overall trophy? Does he even realise you beat him? Did he accept the trophy without question just because he was given it? Or is he a greedy sod who's glad to have a prize even if he doesn't deserve it? Have you asked him? Could he take your side?

[Katie]

Smooth wheel hub bearings probably play a part, too. And having your bike extra clean gives it that vital 0.1% advantage in reducing air turbulence. 

Back on topic, I wonder how the man who won the overall trophy but actually came (presumably) second, feels about this? Is his conscience nagging at him? Does he actually think he's got the men's trophy, not the overall trophy? Does he even realise you beat him? Did he accept the trophy without question just because he was given it? Or is he a greedy sod who's glad to have a prize even if he doesn't deserve it? Have you asked him? Could he take your side?

He definitely knows I beat him because I joked "I thought you were going to win?" as I freewheele'd past him.

The trophies won't be awarded until the xmas dinner in December, hence the push to get it sorted so that it can hopefully happen before the trophies are engraved.  I don't know what he's thinking; it's probably worth finding out though as I don't even know who he is, I wouldn't know where to start.  Shall ask mum...

[darkpoint]

There should be an overall winners trophy,  if any other additional awards are made, vets / ladies / under 16 they are additional,  so if the winner was in more than one of the additional prize groups they get more than one prize.

I have seen this at several events (even hill climbs) where the winner was a 15 year old.   They get the main prize and the youth prize.

kudos to them if you ask me.

[Katie]

Like I say, really not fussed about getting both trophies.  Would actually prefer not to, one is enough to take home!  But, if I don't get at least the overall trophy, I will be contacting CTC Headquarters to say "oi, one of your member groups is discriminating against me based on my gender, this is against CTC policy, will you help me do something about it?"

[darkpoint]

The overall trophy should be yours that matter should not be up for debate.

Did we find out what the feelings where of the chap who came second, as if that was me i would not want an award I did not win.

[mattc]

He definitely knows I beat him because I joked "I thought you were going to win?" as I freewheele'd past him.

Sounds like you've been getting everyone on your side from the beginning.

[frankly frankie]

As the winner's trophy and the men's trophy seem to be one and the same then the obvious solution to me would be to reissue the trophies so that winner gets this one, along with engraving etc. The lady's trophy should then be issued to the winning man (with the appropriate engraving).

This is exactly what happened, the first time this situation cropped up in AUK (back in 1986).  The trophy presentation took place immediately after the AGM, which meant that the AGM could pass a quick'n'dirty motion to re-purpose the trophies (because back then they were esconced in the regulations).  The Vets and Juniors were brought into line at the same time, and sure enough since then there have been female winners of both those.  The main award has gone to a female 4 times.

I might add, that the first male recipient of the 'opposite sex' award was - visibly - put out.

[The Seldom Killer]

In which case the first male winner of the "opposite sex" award needs to visibly man up.

If this kind of nonsense keeps up then I'm putting Mr. T on speed dial.

[Katie]

The AGM is tonight, so keep your fingers crossed for us

Spoke to Adrian at CTC HQ last night.  He was horrified at what they're up to, and Rob Fuller (equality and diversity chap) is going to take them on if they maintain that I can't have the overall trophy 

[Ian H]

"CTC is fully committed to the principles of equality of opportunity..."

Not all the constituent parts of the CTC progress at the same pace, and some need an occasional kick helping hand to encourage them to catch up.

[JohnP]

A bit late to the thread but I cannot see why anybody would want an Opposite Sex award ?

The event should either be Open and one either comes 1st or 2nd et seq, OR there should be seperate Male, Female, Junior, Vets etc awards with no Overall.

Personally, I have no problem with being beaten by women (in sporting activities) provided that there is a level playing field. 

[The Seldom Killer]

So you're not into hill climbs then?

[JohnP]

ho ho.  Have you never ridden a hill climb on a level playing field ?  Or is that grass track racing?

[bobb]

I think both trophies should be awarded. Best in category and best overall.

It's a bit bollocks when the next best in a category "wins" that category as the overall winner was in the same category. A bit like in the Tour when (particularly in the very early stages) a rider could hold all the jerseys but the next best gets to wear anything below yellow. They should have multicoloured jerseys, so if you are leading on time and on points, half your jersey is yellow and the other half green! You can bung some polka dots all over it too if need be. And if there is only one rider on the jerseys podium in Paris, then so be it.

[clarion]

ho ho.  Have you never ridden a hill climb on a level playing field ?  Or is that grass track racing?

I think a freewheel competition on a level playing field might also be disappointing.

[Blade]

ho ho.  Have you never ridden a hill climb on a level playing field ?  Or is that grass track racing?

I think a freewheel competition on a level playing field might also be disappointing.

That's my slant on things too

[Ian H]

I do enjoy a good, freewheeling discussion.