New Life Church - Anyone know anything about them?

[CAMRAMan]

There's a church right next to my kids' school in Warwick called The New Life Church. They have always had a club on Wednesdays for the kids to go to after school and, TBH, it was useful to let them go. I expected some preaching and they do get some, but they like going there as there are computer games to play and fun to be had. My healthy (in my view) disrespect for religion/god is not missed by the kids and they do have their own views, which I encourage.

Recently however, the church has been reaching out more and more to the school and, as an atheist, my spidey senses are jangling. Google throws up nothing specific, although there are a whole host of results for the many different New Life Churches.

So, should I be worried? Are they a bunch of evangelical, brainwashing kiddy-stealers?

[Karla]

I can't find them online either, they don't even have a signboard that I can read on streetview!  Sorry about that. 

[Auntie Helen]

Common church name for the more charismatic evangelical side of churchiness.

This kind of church usually has excellent facilities for kids (as you seem to have discovered). They'll be full on, as you have also discovered, but tend to only really put the pressure on for teenagers.

An awful lot of people go to these churches and grow out of them. Others find them super-helpful as adults. Others, such as me (a Christian), would scream if we had to attend one of them now.

So I'd say they are undoubtedly evangelical (which doesn't have to be a bad thing necessarily - just means sharing good news) but not sure at their success in brainwashing and I doubt they are real kiddie-stealers.

The name New Life Church is now a bit unfortunate due to the issues with Ted Haggard at Colorado Springs' NLT.

[CAMRAMan]

Thanks, AH. Mr B, I found a website newlife.co.uk. I suspect some US funding in the background. Anti-Darwinism seems high on the agenda. The slick website looks like a UK redtop newspaper's.

I expect some evangelism, otherwise why have the clubs? My 9-year-old hasn't come back spouting the gospels, so I'm not worried, but I would still like to hear from them what their motives are. Not that they would reveal them all, I suspect. To that end, as a governor, I've asked for a meeting with the school Head and put this on the agenda. They are definitely making moves to get closer to the school.

I'm an atheist & don't hide that from my kids - nor my disbelief, but I'll let them decide which direction they wish to take regarding religion. To do that, I'd expect some balanced, reasoned arguments from those in charge of the church. We'll see.

[Hot Flatus]

Start training your kids in subversion

[CAMRAMan]

Start training your kids in subversion

Like it

I wonder if you can buy pro-Darwin sweets?

[Auntie Helen]

Can I just also explain that, for people at these churches, it isn't brainwashing.

Imagine that everyone around you has a nasty disease and you have the cure for it, a little pill.

Because you're a nice person, and the little pill doesn't cost much, you want to share it with people.

People are resistant to new things, to drugs, things like that, so you have to work hard to encourage them. Young people are more open to such things so you know it's worthwhile investing time with them as they'll be more willing to take the pill and, when their disease is cured, will tell others about it.

I know a lot of people think that churches are all about money and making the church founders rich. I don't subscribe to that view, but even if I did, the average person in the church is doing it for good reasons - they don't get rich. People share their faiths because they believe it has genuinely made a positive difference to their life.

So when they're asking to get into the school it's because they believe they have something good that they want to pass around. Almost everyone in this kind of church will be happy that, if people hear it and don't want to accept it, then that's up to them. It's just hoping that everyone gets the chance to hear.

I imagine the people approaching the school are really nice people, so you might like to bear that in mind when discussing it. It's not evil babykillers trying to take over the school, it's well-meaning people with a love for others who genuinely believe they are doing good stuff. You may disagree - I may even disagree sometimes - but it's not a black and white case of brainwashing.

Oh, and if your kid did come back spouting the gospels then this would be a good thing. What they contain is a call to social justice, to helping the poor, weak, oppressed, to making others' lives better and not profiting from the poverty of others, to living humbly and peaceably yourself. It's not about having shiny cars and more money and all the answers and that kind of crap. Not that this is preached about much in churches as it's not very popular!

Here endeth the second lesson.

[Biggsy]

Straight after leaving school (at 16) I worked for a company of two guys that happened to be evangelical "born again" Christians.  They talked openely about their (rather extreme) beliefs and activities, but never tried the "hard sell" on me.  They casually invited me to a couple of events, which I declined, and that was it.

The point is that not all evangelicals are nasty brainwashing types, although some are, so I can understand your concern, AWL.

What about them joining the Cubs or Scouts instead?  (These are also connected to religion, but only nominally, really).

[Biggsy]

Oh, and if your kid did come back spouting the gospels then this would be a good thing. What they contain is a call to social justice, to helping the poor, weak, oppressed, to making others' lives better and not profiting from the poverty of others, to living humbly and peaceably yourself. It's not about having shiny cars and more money and all the answers and that kind of crap. Not that this is preached about much in churches as it's not very popular!

They also may be taking the Old Testement literally and spouting homophobic stuff, for example*.  Children should not be subjected to this.

I speak as someone who got confirmed as a member of a Methodist church as a CHILD because I felt too shy to admit that I didn't really want to.   I wish people were allowed to grow up before having religion pushed on them.

* Not a Methodist example, by the way, but one from some "born again" types.

[CAMRAMan]

Thanks again, AH. I'll stick to the bits we have in common rather than disagreeing with something you feel strongly about, as I'm sure that's what I as a humanist & you as a Christian should do.

Everyone I've met at the church is really nice. That ranges from laypeople to the priest/vicar. I have no axe to grind there at all. The club they run is popular with the kids and they enjoy it. It's well run & well funded. And that's where I start to get suspicions. It has a lovely IT suite and very good X-Boxes and monitors. The building is in very good condition and clearly well maintained. That's in stark contrast to most churches, especially in this area which has a lot of social deprivation - or at least as much as there is in Warwick. I feel the - in my view - malevolent hand of the American evangelical movement, which does a lot to discredit the church as a whole.

I also feel that the gospels can be and are manipulated to represent a person/movement's views. I haven't seen the preaching that goes on there - maybe I should ask if I could, so I can't say what goes on. I don't think they are after money from the school - in fact it's more likely that money would flow the other way, as they have organised a bring & buy sale in the past to raise funds for the school. Their website is very flashy & is celebrity obsessed - they are trying to attract the X-Factor generation. As I have some marketing experience, I'd hazard a guess that they are aiming at a less well educated, C2DE audience. I don't think it's an accident that they have set up in the poorer end of town.

I'm sorry if that all sounds very cynical, as I'm sure there are many well intentioned people in this church and in religion in general, but I still feel that I'd like to hear their message from the horse's mouth. I don't think there's any harm in asking them to do this. I will attempt to approach them in an open manner, as what I have seen has been positive in many ways.

EDIT: Cross post with Biggsy who has a very valid point about the fire & brimstone approach the evangelicals can take.

[clarion]

I find evangelical churches are the last place you are likely to come across the Sermon on the Mount.  More often it's mysoginistic, homophobic, greed-excusing crap from the Epistles, backed up with a bit of genocide righteous smiting from the OT.

And they do brainwash.  A home-schooled evangelical kid (they get taught creationism, which I think is child abuse) actually told me, in good faith (sic) that Muhammed (pbuh) was the Devil.

That said, TGL attends a church youth club.  There's some preaching, and he listens politely but critically.  He's an atheist, and I have no doubt that the youth leaders earnestly hope to convert him.  Not gonna happen.  They don't know him like I do, but they have heard some of his lucid arguments based on a broad interfaith knowledge.

*proud*

[Ham]

Can I just also explain that, for people at these churches, it isn't brainwashing.

I know a lot of people think that churches are all about money and making the church founders rich. I don't subscribe to that view, but even if I did, the average person in the church is doing it for good reasons - they don't get rich. People share their faiths because they believe it has genuinely made a positive difference to their life.

Not arguing with you at all, but many years ago I had the dubious pleasure of transacting some business with one of the largest and richest US charismatic churches. From what I met of the workers in the church (who had the initial contact) your description fits perfectly. OK, OK, I admit, I thought signing up the deal was going to be like taking candy from a baby. Then right at the end, the head of the church became involved and took control and I was left with no doubt of his personal priorities. No 1 - Himself. No 2 - Money. No 3 - Church. It was interesting.

[MikeFromLFE]

In a different life, a number of years ago, I got involved in children's and youth work for my local Anglican/Methodist church, which was closely connected to the CofE in the next suburb, which had very close connections (if you are still following me) with what I consider to be a very evangelical Baptist community church. Thus I gained a lot of insight into how youth work went on in the evangelical community - particulalry as my end of the deal was collapsing due - in part - to my (and others) ineptitude.

The childrens side of this was very traditional and 'low key', but I beleive now was really intended - deliberatly or otherwise - as a feeder to the teenage (13+) side of the evangelical church's ministrations. This included weekend camps - which did include the 'hard sell', visiting 'pop' bands which did include a 'hard sell', and one-to-one prayer which I now consider extremely suspect.  There was - at that time - a lot of (what I considered) harmful 'teaching' on end times which gave at least on girl psychiatric issues; as well as some wierdness about teenagers' awakening sexuality.
Unfortunately, teenagers are vulnerable in so many ways, and are open to this type of manipulation which gives quick and easy answers to their issues as they see them. Fortunately teenagers are more robust than we beleive and they come through this experience largely unscathed. However some may not, and some may be turned against organised religion by these experiences. And, it is the experience of evangelical Christianity that has - in part - turned me against churchianity.

I wouldn't now go within 10 miles of Spring Harvest, or anything other than a recognised mainstream denominational church, and even then, I'd be very careful to keep on the periphery.
As Auntie Helen says rightly, the majority of the people are good people doing what they consider to be ' the right thing', unfortunately there are people who are manipulating them - and the influence, in my experience, seems to track back to American money.

It is true my experiences are maybe 15 years out of date, and in a relatively affluent suburban area, but I tell it as I see it!

[henshaw11]

Hmmm..think I may have found some relevant info - that redtop site you found, there's a couple of churches mentioned but none in Warwick - so I think it's unrelated. However, I came across this via a google maps search (new life church warwick)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HOJcg_mdUQA/TkqrPWwVbgI/AAAAAAAAAAQ/uf9t_5-7U-M/DSCF3434.JPG

- is that the one in question ?

The 'AOG' just under the cross looked a bit stylised, and searching for that:
http://www.aog.org.uk/
 - and the church in the piccie is one of those listed.

If it *is* the same thing, looks like it's a UK collection of pentecostal churches (so hopefully nothing much to do with the nutcases on t'other side of the pond) tho' there is the 'world..' version  -first link below.

The partnership links on that page, the first:
www.worldagfellowship.org
- not much info
the second:
http://www.eauk.org/
 - evangelical organisation  - there appear to be various papers on the site, might give a ideal of direction...

Ah, there's even a wiki page for 'em !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assemblies_of_God
(found from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism)

Now, I was wondering how pentacostalism sits with creationism (which is just *bonkers* IMO), first hit:
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201002/ejonline_201002_origins.cfm

so no real tie-up, tho' I find it amusing that the first 3 options are acceptable, but the fourth isn't..still, what do I know, I'm an atheist   Oh, and this is a AOG US, so how that transfers elsewhere I dunno..

>Unfortunately, teenagers are vulnerable in so many ways, and are open to this type of manipulation which gives quick and easy answers to their issues as they see them.

I almost posted as much earlier (together with a cheap shot that in other circumstances it might be called 'grooming') - that would be the most concerning part (which is how assorted cults managed to recruit I guess..).
I'm not sure it should *really* matter (from my point of view it's all easter bunny territory anyway), and all the non-CoE/Catholic christians I've come across seem decent enough, and there's probably been a few evangelicals amongst 'em. But some people seem to need the blind belief/certainty/prescriptive elements offered of some strains of religion, and from there (IMO) it's a short trip to some of the nastier, discriminatory points of view..but hey, that exists in mainstream religion too ! (And as for Christian Zionists....)

FWIW I was brought up as a Christian - sunday school etc - wasn't til about 11, having to come up with something for an RE lesson that I had my 'wtf am I doing believing this' moment. Still, my parents had the sense not to have me baptised as a baby on the grounds I'd make my own mind up

[Jaded]

I find evangelical churches are the last place you are likely to come across the Sermon on the Mount.  More often it's mysoginistic, homophobic, greed-excusing crap from the Epistles, backed up with a bit of genocide righteous smiting from the OT.

Gets cheque book out.

[CAMRAMan]

Yes, henshaw 11, it is the same church.

I did a search of the site for "gay", "homosexual" and "Darwin" and nothing too scary came up. In fact, it seemed rather accepting.

I still have this nagging feeling that there is American money behind the funding. The IT suite is very good indeed & that won't have been cheap to kit out & is a good way of enticing/snaring kids. I'm not sure how the school Head will react to my approach tomorrow, but I think some kind of clarification is called for seeing as the church is making such direct overtures.

[vorsprung]

Is this it?
http://opencharities.org/charities/1052018

[Karla]

Thanks, AH. Mr B, I found a website newlife.co.uk. I suspect some US funding in the background. Anti-Darwinism seems high on the agenda. The slick website looks like a UK redtop newspaper's.

As henshaw says, the website doesn't look to be linked to that church - it appears to be a publishing organisation with possible links to a couple of other partner churches.  As Auntie Helen says, New Life is a pretty common name for charismatic/pentecostal churches. 

Henshaw has also correctly identified them as part of the Assemblies of God denomination, whose website you can see .  They're a fairly sane and well-known pentecostal denomination, but I don't move in those circles and so can't tell you more.  If the church has a lot of shiny kit, it could be because it has a couple of rich local benefactors - I've worked for a church like that in a not-too-rich area - or it could be through denominational funding - I have no idea whether AoG is a tight enough fellowship to do that sort of thing, so it could be worth finding out.

[Biggsy]

I know a Methodist church that has built a multi-million-pound community centre on its premises.  Church groups use the rooms and facilities, but they're also let out to groups that have nothing to do with the church.  The church hopes its membership will be boosted, but they feel it's part of their "mission" to do things that help the local community, regardless.  Potentially it could be a money raiser, but so far it doesn't raise enough to even pay for itself.

So something at a church isn't necessarily anything directly related to the church.  This should be checked anyway.  You need to know who's looking after your kids!

[Karla]

Is this it?
http://opencharities.org/charities/1052018

Good spot.  That links to their Charity Commission page, which gives their accounts.  Here are a couple of selected quotes from that report

This year we were again fortunate to have received support from local grant making bodies.  These grants enabled us to ... buy the much needed equipment for our various children and youth clubs.

Our principal aim is the advancement of the Christian faith but we do this as Jesus did simply by showing the love of God and caring for people.

It also gives various phone numbers which  you might find useful if you want to ring someone up for a chat about your kid.  I'm sure they wouldn't mind, on they contrary they'd probably be delighted that you were showing an interest!  If you feel like attending one Sunday to get a feel for the place, the same will apply but you should be prepared for some hands in the air and possible speaking in tongues - not that those are harmful, just be aware and don't get too freaked out! 

[rafletcher]

I'm an atheist & don't hide that from my kids - nor my disbelief, but I'll let them decide which direction they wish to take regarding religion. To do that, I'd expect some balanced, reasoned arguments from those in charge of the church. We'll see.

Why should you? You have your stated point of view, they will have their (diametrically opposite) one. Neither will convince the other of the rightness or wrongness of the other. And as you say you're willing to let your kids make their own choices - so how about you discuss with them what they feel about church and it's teachings? Or why not go to one of the sessions your kids attend and see what goes on? Or just move them to some other form or post school care? All are better than fostering completely unfounded suspicions about "kiddy stealing".

[mrcharly-YHT]

Before requesting  'reasoned arguments', I suggest you examine the meaning of the word 'faith'.

[giropaul]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but certain things stand out for me;

This religious group has the stated aim of trying to make people believe their particular beliefs.

They are providing a free or subsidised service

They seem to be targetting the school.

As with other instances I have seen, I find it useful to transpose the situation to another "interest" group.

Your local motor transport lobbying group provides free transport by bus, as long as the children listen to how great busses are, and how dangerous cycling is.

Your local burger giant provides free childcare, and gives out free burgers and chips on a daily basis, whilst proselytizing about how great burgers are.

I'm guessing that may help a decision?

If it were me I'd be writing to the governors as a matter of urgency, as well as checking any linkage between the governors, head, and this church (just as I would do if any other interest or commercial organisation or group seemed to be having access to children's minds.

[CAMRAMan]

GP: I am a parent governor  I am setting out to do exactly what you said. The school has benefited in some ways from the church's input, but I want to ensure that the cost in other respects is not too high.

[andyoxon]

AWL - I think you have more or less the right approach on all this... In the main there's probably no reason to be concerned, though it seems right to make sure there is a 'balanced' relationship between the school and this particular church.   As discussed AOG should be mainstream pentecostal/charismatic, and I'd expect most churches to always be respectful, and not give any 'hard-sell'. In any event I do not subscribe to the POV taken by some that exposure to the Gospel, or on a different tack - creationism, is abuse or brain washing and I think teenagers, particularly, are able to make decisions for themselves.   On 'creation' matters  it's possible to point out to one's children, that different churches have different views on this including many Christians who would go along with a evolutionary approach - the Genesis creation story being an allegorical non-scientific section covering the beginnings of the relationship between God and Man... but this isn't POBI...