Author Topic: GCSE / A Level Computing question  (Read 6631 times)

Woofage

  • Tofu-eating Wokerati
  • Ain't no hooves on my bike.
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #25 on: 18 March, 2015, 12:44:28 pm »
^ this

Our children are very lucky because they have a dad who is an Engineering graduate. I will therefore be able to explain to them the relevance of their maths work but I hope this won't be necessary too many times. I occasionally sneak in a mention of more advanced (at the mo') topics like complex numbers and calculus :demon:.

For the past couple of years, if the subject of university education comes up in conversation, I ask the question "what A-levels will you need?". If maths isn't the first to be mentioned they quickly get corrected. FTR, peep #1 will probably study life sciences and peep #2 computer science or engineering.
Pen Pusher

rr

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #26 on: 18 March, 2015, 12:49:25 pm »
Mini and I went to her options evening last night, the computing GCSE looks good-- a raspberry pi based hardware and Linux section and then some coding in Python. One of the selling points was that it was a low risk way of seeing if you could code and if you like it. Apparently so people only discover they can't and don't I the first year of a degree.

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #27 on: 18 March, 2015, 12:53:46 pm »
Sixth form college have confirmed that GCSE Computing isn't required, so it's good to hear from everyone here that the Computing A Level can be achieved (apparently comfortably) without the GCSE.

That makes the GCSE choice completion task a slightly easier mission.
Rust never sleeps

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #28 on: 18 March, 2015, 01:22:25 pm »
Give them a telling off for not offering chemistry from me  ;)
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #29 on: 18 March, 2015, 01:28:30 pm »
Liking Mr Charly's examples...

Although in my experience in the working world LOTS of people have poor maths (from poor teaching) and don't know how to use maths to make work-tasks easier.  Even doing basic calculations seems to be something some colleagues simply avoid doing at all or act like it's really hard.  A lot of this stuff should be common knowledge but simply isn't and then isn't used or respected outside of mathematical disciplines.

My dad has a degree in computing from 1969-72 but I look back and realise at the critical age where he might have advised us, we hardly saw him for $reasons... And I think he assumed cos he knew maths was important we would do so and my grades didn't fall low enough to concern anyone..

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #30 on: 18 March, 2015, 01:36:20 pm »
My take on this is that for an engineering degree Maths and Physics A Levels should be prerequisite with Further Maths strongly advised.

Then if you know which engineering flavour you want to do either swap out the further maths for the required chemistry, electronics ... and take an AS in the Further Maths or take a fourth A level. I was fortunate to get through the whole of an engineering degree based on further maths A level and one 'new topic' when partial differentiation was presented.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #31 on: 18 March, 2015, 01:43:26 pm »
Computers were rather more primitive than that in my day

As far as Computer Science is concerned, computers haven't really changed much since the 60s.

"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."


The shiny stuff is more Software Engineering, Computer Systems Engineering and the more applied subjects.  The trick is knowing which to study as an ostensibly bright A-level student who reckons that mucking about with computers is a reasonable career path.  I'd suggest that, as with the hard sciences rarely being a bad move, a thorough grounding in either the electronics or computer science side of things is unlikely to be a bad thing.  The elephant in the room is knowing where your talents actually lie.  When I was doing A-levels people thought I was good at maths, and that came back to bite me in short order.

red marley

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #32 on: 18 March, 2015, 01:47:29 pm »
If anyone wishes to hone their maths evangelising skills I'd heartily recommend How Not to be Wrong by Jordan Eilenberg. It's full of persuasive examples of how a mathematical perspective on life provides practical and genuine insight. Readable by parents, teenagers and teachers, I particularly like the fact that it doesn't dwell on number theory as do too many pop maths books. It has quite a strong stats emphasis, but all the stronger for it.

Example from the book:

During the second world war, the fatality rate of pilots on sorties was very high. Aeroplanes were returning from them peppered with bullet holes. These holes were not uniformly distributed about the plane but appeared concentrated in the fuselage area.  In an effort to reduce casualties the airforce started to add armour plating to their planes, but due to limited weight, could only place them in the most 'at risk' parts of the plane. Practice was to attach plating to the regions with most holes as they appeared to be where enemy gunfire was targeted.

It took a mathematician's mind to demonstrate that actually where plating was most effectively deployed was precisely where there were not holes. As it was in these areas where being shot at resulted in a downed plane. The ones that were getting back to base were the non-fatal survivors.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #33 on: 18 March, 2015, 02:10:54 pm »
It took a mathematician's mind to demonstrate that actually where plating was most effectively deployed was precisely where there were not holes. As it was in these areas where being shot at resulted in a downed plane. The ones that were getting back to base were the non-fatal survivors.

Whereas it takes an engineer's mind to disregard the bullet holes on the returned planes and put the armour around the important noisy, squishy and explodey bits...

[Insert physicist punchline to taste...]

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #34 on: 18 March, 2015, 02:18:20 pm »
We invent the explosive  :-[   ;)
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #35 on: 18 March, 2015, 02:20:42 pm »

IMO, Maths is more important.

In any discussion of vaguely STEM subjects, this is the bottom line.

How I wish more of our life sciences students had higher maths..

my bold

There have been times I've had to run classes to teach conversion of g to kg and mol to nmol to graduates.....sod calculus, polynomials, etc. I'd settle for a basic understanding of number systems and simple algebra.
Bloody hell. My degree's in biology, & that stuff was taken for granted. Anyone with 'O' level maths would have been taught it, up to some calculus, & IIRC lacking that O level would have been a serious obstacle to getting a place. We did have a supplementary stats course (which I did, but don't ask me to use it now), in more depth than O level.


The elephant in the room is knowing where your talents actually lie.  When I was doing A-levels people thought I was good at maths, and that came back to bite me in short order.
Yeah. I eventually realised that A level maths was probably not where I'd have shone, despite a very good result at O level, & I was right not to take it. I think the O level syllabus took me as far as I could excel.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #36 on: 18 March, 2015, 02:35:48 pm »
+1 to all that. It's a shame school maths is taught in such a dry way as it's so important across the spectrum.

One of the shallots is doing psychology and is streets ahead in the research modules because she did maths + stats - most of the others haven't a clue and clearly didn't think it was necessary for an ology!

I've just interviewed for a coding role, and most of the first hour was spent on probability questions, so it involved stats, probability, mental arithmetic and problem solving. Only after an hour of that was there a short question on how I would design a software simulator to show the result empirically.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #37 on: 18 March, 2015, 03:12:40 pm »
Computers were rather more primitive than that in my day

As far as Computer Science is concerned, computers haven't really changed much since the 60s.

"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."


The shiny stuff is more Software Engineering, Computer Systems Engineering and the more applied subjects.  The trick is knowing which to study as an ostensibly bright A-level student who reckons that mucking about with computers is a reasonable career path.  I'd suggest that, as with the hard sciences rarely being a bad move, a thorough grounding in either the electronics or computer science side of things is unlikely to be a bad thing.  The elephant in the room is knowing where your talents actually lie.  When I was doing A-levels people thought I was good at maths, and that came back to bite me in short order.

Indeedy.
The company I used to work for - 3dlabs/ziilabs before it (or at least, the software-y people) was sold off to Intel included driver/sw, hardware (rtl/asic),  and validation (tests to verify the hw during design). In more recent years the two guys recruiting for validation - where understanding low level stuff is kinda helpful (drivers too, for that matter) had real trouble recruiting from the uk. The favourite whinge from one was wrt matlab and java IIRC...but there certainly seemed to he some sort of skills disconnect or focus away from low-level. We picked up the occasional brit electronics engineer that was c/c++ literate, but mainly europeans - Spain,  Italy,  Portugal (possibly aided by those home job markets.

I'd be very surprised if the level of maths on engineering courses has gone down, at least on those where it was rraditionally high. In particular much of our first year ('83ish) was common to electrical, electronic, I think civil engineering , and maths degrees, and it's stuff you'd probably not be able to shy away from, being relevant to design/analysis, but that level wouldnt have been so directly relevant to computing/sw engineering (unless it involved dsp/signal processing)
(Fwiw I actually did a bridging course after TEC rather than a-levels - the useful bits of maths/mechanics/physics/elec eng in 12 weeks :o )

One thing that I feel is worth pointing out wrt sw/computing is that being academically good is not the same as being good at doing it - ive been a hw design engineer (mostly digital - board, fpga, asic/rtl), hw validation engineer (low level c++ to test design blocks), but met my match in moving to the (linux) driver team.
I came to the conclusion that my head likes diagrams - fine with hw  (tho' some pipeline stuff occasionally screwed with my head)  - but very often with drivers/sw the nitty gritty that you need to hold in your head doesnt fall out neatly diagrammatically - particularly when inheriting someone's code, which is actually much of one's time. Whereas I think I remember stuff when it dovetails together  - eg I found my degree not that hard, but failed english lit o-level, my memory's rubbish wrt loosed-related information. In moving to Intel the bite-sized chunk I was trying to digest to fit my head diagrammatically was much of the graphics driver :/ (spittoon joke anyone ?)
That said, one mate often says quite how poor -relatively- engineers are elsewhere in industry by comparison to our old company, so maybe im not as bad as I think ;)


Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #38 on: 20 March, 2015, 07:56:06 pm »
One thing that I feel is worth pointing out wrt sw/computing is that being academically good is not the same as being good at doing it - ive been a hw design engineer (mostly digital - board, fpga, asic/rtl), hw validation engineer (low level c++ to test design blocks), but met my match in moving to the (linux) driver team.

This is an incredibly good point. Anyone opting for a CS degree should have some exposure to coding to see if they have the kind of brain for which it just clicks. Some do, some don't. However, for the OP (and generally) I would think given the choice above, A level in further maths or economics would be far preferable to one in computing, not least because when you turn up at uni 90% of the intake won't have computing A level so you start from the same base level.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #39 on: 20 March, 2015, 08:26:37 pm »
Most of what's been said above is, IMO, very sensible.

If you think a computing degree is for you, then try some programming. If you don't like it, change your mind!
From my experience, the same could be said about A level maths (calculus, complex numbers and matrices in various combinations) and Engineering.
Where I do admissions we want a decent GCSE maths; A level maths is very much approved of; science / design etc all help. Manipulating abstract / symbolic representations is more important than particular prior experience with computers.

After that, do the things that you enjoy / are good at. Enjoying it matters, in life in general.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #40 on: 20 March, 2015, 08:39:52 pm »
If you think a computing degree is for you, then try some programming. If you don't like it, change your mind!

It always struck me as odd that someone would apply for such without having at least dabbled in it a bit.  Unlike the nuts & bolts of other subjects, it's not like computers and programming environments are hard to come by.  But it takes all sorts, I suppose.

That said, there were people on my E&EE course especially who'd never programmed a computer - barely knew how to do basic things like file management and word processing - and had certainly never designed a circuit.  But they were strong mathematicians and had been steered towards engineering on that basis (often with a view to an eventual career in something businessy rather than hands-on engineering).  While they certainly found programming and lab skills a steep learning curve, I think they ultimately managed better than those of us with good practical skills but were treading water in maths.

(Top tip: Ideally you want people from both ends of this spectrum in your lab/project group.)

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #41 on: 20 March, 2015, 11:39:59 pm »

IMO, Maths is more important.

In any discussion of vaguely STEM subjects, this is the bottom line.

How I wish more of our life sciences students had higher maths..

Slightly OT so I hope you all won't mind. Out of interest, can you indicate roughly what % of life sciences students have maths A-level/Higher?

Probably about 60%. Obviously that is somewhat skewed by the local students as maths higher is more common than maths AS, and the foreign students for whom it forms part of their equivalent qualifications.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #42 on: 20 March, 2015, 11:46:36 pm »
That said, there were people on my E&EE course especially who'd never programmed a computer - barely knew how to do basic things like file management and word processing - and had certainly never designed a circuit. 

Same here.
I never actually learned a single thing about either electronics or programming that I didn't already know.
I'd had a soldering iron and (analog!) multi-meter from the age of about 11.

The degree course was mostly the theoretical underpinnings of it, which involved Heavy Maths.
I still shudder at the thought of a Smith Chart.

There were people on the course who could do the maths, and come up with ( technically correct ) answers that required 3 farad capacitors.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #43 on: 20 March, 2015, 11:54:54 pm »
I went to do a chemistry degree with AO maths (theoretical mechanics) as my highest maths qualification. The first lecture started with Schrödingers equation being written on the board. Thermodynamics was a hell hole of partial differentials (why are those d's all squiggly?) and I failed and had to retake the remedial maths course for the mathematically illiterate. Stats didn't even enter into my formative years.

Yet I now use the limited skills I have to their utmost and am keen to learn more. It really annoys me when schools send us students to do a science degree who cannot even rearrange an equation, and for whom a logarithm is beaten out with a big stick.

If you want to get ahead in science learn two things. Maths, and solving problems. Everything else is a test of repetition and memory.
 
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #44 on: 20 March, 2015, 11:58:27 pm »
I tried to get the students to calculate the effect of turning Dundee into the Matrix by depolarising the populations cell membranes.
(Assume a cell membrane has the dielectric constant of free space, is 20Å thick and has a potential 0f 70mV. Assume the average person is 70kg and they are made up of cells which are spheres of diameter 100micrometers. Dundee has 150000 inhabitants, how many mobile phones could you charge?

No you may not use a calculator.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #45 on: 21 March, 2015, 12:38:20 am »
It really annoys me when schools send us students to do a science degree who cannot even rearrange an equation, and for whom a logarithm is beaten out with a big stick.

That's me in a sentence. I didn't even meet logarithms till A-level at a college where my idiot-physics teacher decided to tell us we were lying when we said we did not know what a logarithm was cos his 7yr old knew this stuff etc. And it wasn't just me with my having missed 1/3 of my GCSE years due to illness. 

I haven't managed to do much repair to my dodgy maths, the problem being I don't know how far back the rot set in, possibly year 8. I will Google how to do stuff but I find it very difficult to make it stay in my brain.  It's like I understand it for 5 mins then it's as if I never learned it. Maybe one day I'll do a GCSE in maths again and assume all my maths from Yr7 is nonsense and half heard crap.

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #46 on: 21 March, 2015, 02:06:35 pm »
FWIW, other than the unfinished MPhil (radio comms/dsp) bit of the PhD i was registered for at Brum in the 80s, I've barely used any maths since - could have been different if I'd gone along the control systems/dsp/analogue route thereafter rather than computer system design/graphics in paid employment. A few years back I rebought copies of Stroud's Engineering Mathematics cos I was fed up with feeling like I'd forgotten everything I knew :/ Best part of a year into a voluntary redundancy (thank fuck for that..) I still havent got much further, but at least the diy's slooowly progressing...

Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #47 on: 21 March, 2015, 04:30:36 pm »
At school studied maths and general science for O level.  At University I studied Classics and went on to do a Ph D. They didn't want any Greek philosophers so I eventually got a job as a trainee programmer for the Post Office. All my working career (I am now retired) was in programming, much of it in the software engineering, machine code, device drivers side of the trade rather than the applications side. The amount of maths I needed to know was trivial. most of the work was to do with logic or pattern matching. For this Greek philosophy was as good as any other training. In those days there was very little in the way of specific degrees in computing, and most recruits were failed academics who couldn't get a job in their primary subject. The Post Office at least trained up people who had started as post people or punched card operators (not that often but it was not unknown). Some of them were very good programmers.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #48 on: 21 March, 2015, 06:09:28 pm »
I tried to get the students to calculate the effect of turning Dundee into the Matrix by depolarising the populations cell membranes.
(Assume a cell membrane has the dielectric constant of free space, is 20Å thick and has a potential 0f 70mV. Assume the average person is 70kg and they are made up of cells which are spheres of diameter 100micrometers. Dundee has 150000 inhabitants, how many mobile phones could you charge?

No you may not use a calculator.

Don't we need to know the mass of a cell?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: GCSE / A Level Computing question
« Reply #49 on: 21 March, 2015, 06:25:50 pm »
We could assume that the human organism's density approximates to 1kg per litre and estimate the mass of a cell from its linear dimensions.
That's what I would do.