Boiler emergency ..

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

A friend who is not technically minded has been told by her Npower servicing person that her boiler is kaputt.  He has disconnected it.  Apparently it is emitting carbon monoxide albeit not into the house but through the external flue into the outer atmosphere.  They didn't oughta do that, he says, and she will need a new boiler fitted.  (Not by him as Npower don't fit boilers).

Several people have been invited to give a quote for a new boiler. The existing one is an old style job with a hot water cylinder and header tank and the house is a very small one c.15 years old and quite well insulated.

Apparently the boiler is not fixable and the options are:

a. simply shoeing another boiler of similar type
or
b. going for a modern job and losing the cylinder and header tank

She is strapped for cash and will need finance.

Any views based on others experience would be welcome (I think!)..

[Feanor]

Replace like-for-like with system boiler.
That is also a 'modern type'.

There is no need to re-plumb everything for a combi, which is what would be involved, for no benefit ( unless they need the tank space for something else ).

[perpetual dan]

What he said ^
Unless the current arrangement is unsatisfactory then replace with the most similar thing. In our previous house we changed an old and knackered boiler with a tank to combi: because we wanted the tank space for an upstairs toilet. It was a considerable faff.

[hellymedic]

I HATE¹ my new combi boiler and lack of hot water cylinder. I can't go back and boiler replacement was a BIG JOB.

Suggest she gets like for like.

1) I hate it for washing-up. I waste HUGE amounts of water waiting for hot water to come through. Maximum temperature is 62C, which isn't much after it's been through the pipes.
The central heating is good and running a bath is OK.

[Mrs Pingu]

According to what I've just read, replacing like with like will be considerably cheaper than going for a combi (at least in terms of initial outlay).

I don't know what all the pushing for combis is about, my mum needs a new boiler and is reluctant to get one because she says they'll make her have a combi. We keep telling her this is bollocks and she can have the same type as she has now....

[hellymedic]

My plumber did push for a combi and partner and I were persuaded.
I don't think he likes it very much either but we'll live with it.

[mrcharly-YHT]

He's disconnected it because it was unsafe?

Emitting CO into out via the flue is not in breach of gas safe regs.

I'm not a gas safe engineer but I'm damn sure that isn't grounds for a disconnection.

I bet there is a fair chance her boiler is fixable. Has he officially condemned it? Is this in York, Asterix?

[Jaded]

If she has hard water do not go for a combi!

[Mrs Pingu]

He's disconnected it because it was unsafe?

Emitting CO into out via the flue is not in breach of gas safe regs.

I'm not a gas safe engineer but I'm damn sure that isn't grounds for a disconnection.

I bet there is a fair chance her boiler is fixable. Has he officially condemned it? Is this in York, Asterix?

Regs say the CO:CO₂ ratio must be less than 0.008 in flue gas and preferably less than 0.004.
http://www.keison.co.uk/guide_fluegasanalysers.shtml

[hellymedic]

Oh f*ck!
I have, I did!

[mrcharly-YHT]

He's disconnected it because it was unsafe?

Emitting CO into out via the flue is not in breach of gas safe regs.

I'm not a gas safe engineer but I'm damn sure that isn't grounds for a disconnection.

I bet there is a fair chance her boiler is fixable. Has he officially condemned it? Is this in York, Asterix?

Regs say the CO:CO2 ratio must be less than 0.008 in flue gas and preferably less than 0.004.

Yes, that's right (but I'm struggling to find that in the regulations, it's just about efficiency) - but not 'just emitting'. Getting the ratios right is usually a matter of adjusting the gas/air flow for the burners. If Npower 'don't fit boilers' I bet they don't now how to adjust them either.

[Mrs Pingu]

I must admit I did wonder exactly how a boiler could be so 'broken' as to impair the flue gases, I'd have thought it would be more likely to be something fixable such as something needing cleaning, or a blocked flue. Time for a second opinion perhaps.

[Mrs Pingu]

Page 4 explains a bit more.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/pdf/safetyactionlevels.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiLzdn62tPPAhWHOxQKHThsCxMQFggqMAE&usg=AFQjCNHYOPXSz_-xhgLRuyM1eD4N_pVrYQ&sig2=tCqgdcIl0-J_G_h3s6N_iA

[Canardly]

A straight forward replacement will still be a modern and very efficient condensing boiler (a building regs requirement)  and provide lots of lovely hot water via the cylinder. The controls should also be modernised and all primary pipework in the cylinder cupboard insulated. It is also adviseable to have a magnetic filter fitted. Many firms will advise power flushing of the system but opnions as to the benefit of this are, apparently, divided.

The gas engineer is required to disable a dangerous appliance.

[jsabine]

According to what I've just read, replacing like with like will be considerably cheaper than going for a combi (at least in terms of initial outlay).

I don't know what all the pushing for combis is about, my mum needs a new boiler and is reluctant to get one because she says they'll make her have a combi. We keep telling her this is bollocks and she can have the same type as she has now....

I'm not sure there's a genuine push for combis, as opposed to an uninformed conflation of combi with condensing.

I think an awful lot of people don't realise condensing system boilers exist.

[chrisbainbridge]

go for a worcester bosch system boiler.  We have our hot water tank, and an airing cupboard.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

He's disconnected it because it was unsafe?

Emitting CO into out via the flue is not in breach of gas safe regs.

I'm not a gas safe engineer but I'm damn sure that isn't grounds for a disconnection.

I bet there is a fair chance her boiler is fixable. Has he officially condemned it? Is this in York, Asterix?

Yes, I was puzzled about that and yes, a second opinion might be in order.  Npower is not a name I have much faith in but it is a 15 yr old appliance.  The house is in Hull.

I hate it [combi] for washing-up. I waste HUGE amounts of water waiting for hot water to come through.

We had one fitted - there was a govt scheme subsidising the devices and we took the bait.  Wish system boilers had been around then.  Good job our water isn't metered!

I think an awful lot of people don't realise condensing system boilers exist.

Agreed, I didn't and it's thanks to this thread that I do now.  I will recommend it as the best option if replacement is definitely needed.   And a Worcester Bosch - we have Weissmannn, it's been relieble but that's just as well because there isn't much back up in the York area.  Like none we could find.

Thanks all, very useful.

[mrcharly-YHT]

If it were in York I could recommend a couple of decent plumbers, but Hull is out of my knowledge.

I'm still dubious about the claim to be unrepairable and the guy disconnecting it.

[Wombat]

I've experienced this before, where some designs of boiler only just met the requirement as it was when they were installed, and now are on the "ragged edge" of complying, when in decent nick, and once they've degraded a bit with age, can never economically be brought back within the current requirements.  I had it on an 8 yr old boiler a couple of years ago, I was somewhat outraged at the time, but some research showed it was true.  Luckily we had funding to help the lady then, but such things are far harder to get in our lovely caring society we have now...

In another thread recently, the business of folk conflating "combi" with condensing" was raised.  I hate combis!  More complex, noisier, use more gas, need a bigger gas supply, give variable hot water temperature, almost impossible to control tap water temp...

And yes, excess CO out of the flue = automatic disconnection.

[rafletcher]

We have our hot water tank, and an airing cupboard.

So do we (and wouldn't be without one).

[trekker12]

go for a worcester bosch system boiler.  We have our hot water tank, and an airing cupboard.

We have a combi but it works fine and doesn't waste much water heating up. Possibly because it is a Worcester Bosch. Expensive but worth every penny in efficiency savings and reliability (although I had a source through which I could get a discount).

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

go for a worcester bosch system boiler.  We have our hot water tank, and an airing cupboard.

We have a combi but it works fine and doesn't waste much water heating up. Possibly because it is a Worcester Bosch. Expensive but worth every penny in efficiency savings and reliability (although I had a source through which I could get a discount).

I guess it depends on the pipe run to large degree.  Ours is in the bathroom cupboard so it doesn't take long to run a bath but the run to the kitchen is a lot further. 

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

I replaced my combi with another combi and I love it like I loved the first one. I don't get the hatred.

[hellymedic]

go for a worcester bosch system boiler.  We have our hot water tank, and an airing cupboard.

We have a combi but it works fine and doesn't waste much water heating up. Possibly because it is a Worcester Bosch. Expensive but worth every penny in efficiency savings and reliability (although I had a source through which I could get a discount).

I guess it depends on the pipe run to large degree.  Ours is in the bathroom cupboard so it doesn't take long to run a bath but the run to the kitchen is a lot further.

Quite!

My (combi) boiler is a Worcester Bosch and is in the bathroom. The pipe run is long.

[Aunt Maud]

Oh f*ck!
I have, I did!

You can get an inline softener, which is easy to fit.