Author Topic: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic  (Read 4750 times)

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #25 on: 29 October, 2012, 01:27:39 pm »
Right, memtest isn't going to work as I cannot create a bootable CD, and booting from a USB drive seems a lot more complicated than just putting memtest on a drive and selecting it during startup.

So, I reckon the next stage must be to swap the memory modules and maybe reinstall the OS?

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #26 on: 29 October, 2012, 01:52:12 pm »
What drive maintenance have you done?

If only Disk Utility from the boot drive, then try Applejack. If there is a disk problem this might solve it. I use it as an emergency tool when away from the ability to mount the disk on another machine and use DiskWarrior.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #27 on: 29 October, 2012, 02:02:21 pm »
What drive maintenance have you done?

If only Disk Utility from the boot drive, then try Applejack. If there is a disk problem this might solve it. I use it as an emergency tool when away from the ability to mount the disk on another machine and use DiskWarrior.

Drive maintenance: none. While the Mac in question was still functioning, I ran Disk Utility and Repair Permissions etc. All hardware including memory was reported as working ok.

I think I am just getting frustrated by my lack of skill in this department. For instance, memtest: it's not going to run on its own from a USB drive, so how do I do it precisely? I do have a Windows machine at home with a DVD rewriter if that would be better, but again I don't know the ins and outs of it. For instance, how do I unzip the files in the memtest download?

Disk utility from the boot drive: so this means booting from the installation disk and going into Apps, then Utilities?

Might just go and get new RAM modules and give that a go.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #28 on: 29 October, 2012, 02:12:14 pm »
Disk utility from the boot drive: so this means booting from the installation disk and going into Apps, then Utilities?

Yes. and it doesn't go as deep as doing the same from a different disk. Applejack will go further than Disk Utility, from the boot drive.

Here is the project page

http://applejack.sourceforge.net
It is simpler than it looks.

ian

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #29 on: 29 October, 2012, 02:12:55 pm »
I'm not sure why you need to create the boot CD from a Windows machine - it'll take a few moments and blank disk on a Mac? Use the zip (it doesn't really matter) and it'll unpack an ISO image. Start disk utility and follow the instructions.

Memtest is indeed very old skool, but it'll give you a high-level pass/fail on memory.

But yes, swap the modules. See what happens (my money is still on this will fix everything). If all else fails, by all means reinstall the OS, it's fairly quick and painless on a Mac.

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #30 on: 29 October, 2012, 02:16:11 pm »
I'm not sure why you need to create the boot CD from a Windows machine

Because my MBA has no disc drive. And I can't use the disc drive on the Macbook in question.

ian

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #31 on: 29 October, 2012, 02:25:08 pm »
I'm not sure why you need to create the boot CD from a Windows machine

Because my MBA has no disc drive. And I can't use the disc drive on the Macbook in question.

Ah, the perils of a swank machine from the future.

To be honest, I wouldn't faff, just try replacement RAM before worrying about anything else. Happy to pop my old modules in the post, I have no use for them, they'll just continue to gather dust in the technological artefact drawer. Either that, or send the current ones back. You put them in the machine, it went all fritzcake, so it's a reasonable assumption that they be bad.

Of course, if you fitted them while wearing nothing other than nylon lingerie, you only have yourself to blame.

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #32 on: 29 October, 2012, 06:03:40 pm »
RAM replaced. No difference  :(

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #33 on: 29 October, 2012, 06:47:44 pm »
Using disk utility from the installation disc, running disk repair fails, with the message "back up and reformat disc" etc, with a report mentioning things like "invalid node structure" and "invalid record count".

Am I right in thinking that this means the hard drive is ok, and thus a reinstall will solve the issue? I guess there is only one way to find out.

Interesting... when I begin the installation process, no drives appear in the "Select the disc where you want to install" window, so I cannot proceed.  :(

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #34 on: 29 October, 2012, 07:00:08 pm »
Have you tried AppleJack? Nothing to lose.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #35 on: 29 October, 2012, 07:18:24 pm »
I'll have a look at it now. In the meantime, how do I escape from this loop: the installation disc is in, but I cannot complete the installation, and my only on screen option is to restart. I can't eject the disc, or power the machine down...

ian

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #36 on: 29 October, 2012, 07:21:07 pm »
I'll have a look at it now. In the meantime, how do I escape from this loop: the installation disc is in, but I cannot complete the installation, and my only on screen option is to restart. I can't eject the disc, or power the machine down...

Hold down the trackpad button (or the eject button) as it restarts. It should cough up the installation disk.

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #37 on: 29 October, 2012, 07:54:08 pm »
I'll have a look at it now. In the meantime, how do I escape from this loop: the installation disc is in, but I cannot complete the installation, and my only on screen option is to restart. I can't eject the disc, or power the machine down...

Hold down the trackpad button (or the eject button) as it restarts. It should cough up the installation disk.

Thanks. I'll have a look to see if Applejack is doable. Or, as it stands, does it look terminal for the hard drive?

ian

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #38 on: 29 October, 2012, 08:22:42 pm »
If you hold down option during startup, does anything appear under startup volumes? I expect not.

You could pop the disk and put it in an external caddy and see if your MacBook can read it. If not, it's probably dead. I doubt you'd see much difference from trying to access and verify it from the install disk.

From the error messages, I'd vote for dead. In theory DiskWarrior would attempt to fix them, but to be honest, once you start to see low level blips like that on a drive, I would no longer trust it, they're typically symptomatic of a worser malaise.

Old computers, there by the grace of Finestre, go they.


Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #39 on: 29 October, 2012, 08:35:51 pm »
I feel that I am in too deep (as in, money spent) and I'm compelled to replace the hard drive now.

And... let's say I install a new hard drive, install Snow Leopard from the disc, do all the updates etc etc... am I going to be able to use Time Machine to put everything else back where it was? Or at least, get the files from the Timemachine backup that is on the network drive?

PaulF

  • "World's Scariest Barman"
  • It's only impossible if you stop to think about it
Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #40 on: 29 October, 2012, 09:48:49 pm »
If you can boot from the CD then  do that and use Disk Utility reformat the hard disc.  Then you may be able to reinstall the OS on it

ian

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #41 on: 29 October, 2012, 11:59:07 pm »
I feel that I am in too deep (as in, money spent) and I'm compelled to replace the hard drive now.

And... let's say I install a new hard drive, install Snow Leopard from the disc, do all the updates etc etc... am I going to be able to use Time Machine to put everything else back where it was? Or at least, get the files from the Timemachine backup that is on the network drive?

It's worth trying what Paul says and nuking the HD first, but yes, when you do the OSX install make sure you have the TM drive plugged in. When it asks if you want to restore from TM select your backup drive. That's it really.

Note that'll you'll need to be installing the same major version of OSX as your TM was last backed up with — in other words you can't restore a Lion backup via a Snow Leopard install.

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #42 on: 30 October, 2012, 10:23:54 am »
Thanks again, ian and PaulF.

I'll try nuking the drive and reinstalling, but I wonder is there some physical problem with the HD and would I be better just putting in a new one. On the other hand, erasing / reinstalling on the existing drive will presumably tell me if it is indeed the drive at fault.

"Make sure you have the TM backup plugged in". This is a network drive - wireless - so should I try to connect it directly with a cable?

"Same major version of OS X". Now that I think about it, I think the installation disc is Leopard, and it was later upgraded to Snow Leopard. I think.

ian

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #43 on: 30 October, 2012, 01:02:12 pm »
Thanks again, ian and PaulF.

I'll try nuking the drive and reinstalling, but I wonder is there some physical problem with the HD and would I be better just putting in a new one. On the other hand, erasing / reinstalling on the existing drive will presumably tell me if it is indeed the drive at fault.

"Make sure you have the TM backup plugged in". This is a network drive - wireless - so should I try to connect it directly with a cable?

"Same major version of OS X". Now that I think about it, I think the installation disc is Leopard, and it was later upgraded to Snow Leopard. I think.

If the disk is faulty, you'll hit the same wall. What's the SMART status say? To be honest, I've found SMART to pretty useless, but it should flag obvious modes of disk doom. OSX probably won't install if SMART says no.

If you have a networked TM drive it should be seen as such during in the install. You might want to try plugging it in however, the process will be a lot quicker over USB than wifi.

The TM restore may work with a different version install, you'll have to try, the issue is that you have a TM backup created by a later version of OSX so may have attributes unsupported in earlier versions. It may all go peachy. If it doesn't, simply install Leopard and upgrade to Snow Leopard, and then use Migration Assistant to restore from your TM. It'll get you to the same place.

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #44 on: 30 October, 2012, 01:26:30 pm »
I'm not sure what the SMART status says - is that the sort of report that appears in Disk Utility? If so it says things like ""back up and reformat disc", "invalid node structure" and "invalid record count".

On the subject of drives, does it matter if the replacement drive is 5400 rpm or 7200? Would there be any advantage in 7200, given that 1) the machine doesn't do anything more intensive than streaming video and 2) it would be good if the drive was nice and quiet.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #45 on: 30 October, 2012, 01:49:13 pm »
7200 makes for faster access times, which should give noticably better performance.  OTOH, it uses more power, so the battery will discharge more quickly.  5400 is perhaps marginally quieter, but they're all pretty quiet these days.  Manufacturers usually give noise levels in the specs.  If you want low power and silent, SSD is an option...

Node structure and record count errors are referring to the filesystem.  This is corruption at a software level and does not imply (though may be a symptom of) a faulty disk.

I've no idea how to access SMART data on a mac, unfortunately.

ian

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #46 on: 30 October, 2012, 01:53:05 pm »
I'm not sure what the SMART status says - is that the sort of report that appears in Disk Utility? If so it says things like ""back up and reformat disc", "invalid node structure" and "invalid record count".

On the subject of drives, does it matter if the replacement drive is 5400 rpm or 7200? Would there be any advantage in 7200, given that 1) the machine doesn't do anything more intensive than streaming video and 2) it would be good if the drive was nice and quiet.

If you look at Disk Utility (either on a live system or during install) you should see an entry in the disk information called "SMART status" and it should say 'verified'. OSX checks this on any volume you attempt to install it on. It should be there under the volume name on the install screen. A SMART status of failed is the drive's way of saying "au revoir, thanks for all the bytes." (SMART status is indicated by the drive's hardware, not OSX.)

Either drive speed in theory is fine – if you opt for a 7200rpm check for compatibility with that model MacBook, these drives have higher power requirements and need to dump more heat, and these can be issues for any laptop. They'll hit battery life a harder too (potentially more noise too, but some drives have always been more noisy than others). Personally, I'd be conservative and go for 5400rpm. Actually, I'd go for SSD, but that's a whole other story. Bear in mind that if you do buy a disk and the machine proves unsalvageable, you can pop the disk in a USB caddy and use it as an external disk.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #47 on: 30 October, 2012, 02:03:03 pm »
If you can use Disk Utility on the drive then you can still try AppleJack. As Kim says node stuff does not imply a faulty drive. AppleJack may well fix that node stuff.
It is simpler than it looks.

ian

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #48 on: 30 October, 2012, 03:20:41 pm »
Yes, there's really two scenarios with HDD errors like those: one is that they are symptomatic of an underlying disk failure, the other is that they genuine filesystem scrambles. It's feasible (though generally unlikely) that that kernel panics could scramble the file system, the HFS+ file system used by Apple is old and consequently not the robust at managing outlying events. If you are happy with the reinstall option rather than tinkering with Applejack (which may be able to fix without a reinstall), see if you can install on that drive, it shouldn't take long to find out:

1. Boot from the install disk.
2. Launch Disk Utility.
3. Select the current system disk (the fritzlcaked one) [may as well check the SMART status - if it's failed, OSX won't install, and the disk is dead]
4. Do a full erase.
5. Reformat as 'Mac OS Extended (Journaled)'
6. Install Mac OSX (you can try the restore from TM at this point or later with Migration Assistant once you get back to a base install of whatever version of OSX you want).

Re: Update: hard drive failure? Kernel panic
« Reply #49 on: 30 October, 2012, 05:14:52 pm »
Thanks all, your knowledge is much appreciated.

5. Reformat as 'Mac OS Extended (Journaled)'

What title do I give the drive?