Author Topic: Solve my noise issue *Reward*  (Read 5363 times)

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #25 on: 10 January, 2022, 08:04:08 am »
Put a drop of oil on the base of each front wheel spoke nipple and let it soak in.  Wipe off any excess, then try the bike.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

sam

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #26 on: 10 January, 2022, 08:38:31 am »
I'll give it a go!

Is it temperature related suggesting differential expansion?

Have also pondered this, especially when for a while it was only coming on when the bike was warmed up, but this hasn't always proved to be the case. Any metallurgists in the house?

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #27 on: 10 January, 2022, 10:06:18 am »
I had a phantom creak on my Airbourne for a while, which after doing all of the usual things, still persisted.

Turned out that my front wheel quick release lever needs to be tighter than I'd usually do it up. The creaking has never returned since I've begun doing this.


Rear thru-axle needed an extra 120' of tightening for me, but otherwise all the symptoms OP describes.
I wasn't sure whether to be pleased I'd fixed it, or that I'd spent £100 on a nice new Hope BB on the way...
Back in the saddle :)

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #28 on: 10 January, 2022, 10:35:41 am »
Is the chainring rubbing on the chainstay?

sam

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #29 on: 10 January, 2022, 08:33:41 pm »
oil on the base of each front wheel spoke nipple
tightening front Q/R (though forgot to give the rear one extra oomph)
chainring rubbing on the chainstay

Might try threadlock on the BB next, though I don't know anything about the stuff. Can anyone offer a primer on its use?

One other thing I'm circling back to is the defunct set of bottle cage boltholes I had drilled into the underside of the downtube way back when. The bolts are stuck inside.

(click to show/hide)

Could probably get someone to take them out, but have visions of that somehow making things worse, like attempting to remove shrapnel from a vital part of the anatomy.

The BB makes more sense, especially as I've seemingly been able to affect the noise through the latest and previous lubrication, but these still bug me as a possibility...

BFC

  • ACME Wheelwright and Bike Fettler
Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #30 on: 11 January, 2022, 12:17:57 pm »
The extra bottle cage fixings look to be button head stainless bolts in steel rivnuts (aka clinchnuts).

They can be got out by drilling - assuming the rivnut does not turn in the frame, or by grinding - a 2" die grinder would be best suited.
Once the bolts heads are off they may turn in the rivnuts, otherwise the lip on the rivnut would have to go and then knock the body into the frame.
Alternative extraction techniques for these bolts include trying hammering a torx bit into the knackered allen head (needs to be really tight), or running a hacksaw across the head to take a flat blade screwdriver.
Priority is to not damage the frame!

Avoid excessive temperatures. Getting the amputated body of the fixing out of the frame is a pain, shaking them out through the bottom bracket or head tube is your best bet, assuming there are venting/alignment holes through to the other parts of the frame.

There are stainless rivnuts available now, before that steel ones that are commonly found in ally frames had to have a protective coating to prevent the rot getting established. I treat the frame and the rivnuts with waxoil before fitting, I have added/replaced a few, always easier to remove them from the seat tube.

sam

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #31 on: 11 January, 2022, 06:18:16 pm »
Thanks for the info. Think I'll leave them in place.

There's a thread across the way that reminds me of how this was originally envisaged…


Bloo rij with many gears

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #32 on: 12 January, 2022, 04:09:07 pm »
judging by the last picture, use a rust neutralizer on the BB shell, then plenty of 3in1. 3in1 also on the square taper.

to remove those studs just go through the retapping process. drill out with 4.3mm hole, then M5 tap.






sam

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #33 on: 13 January, 2022, 04:47:57 pm »
Where does the creak sound like it originates from? High-pitched or low?

Here's a recording. Poor quality, sorry I can't isolate it from the rest of the noise, but you should be able to hear it – along with some heavy breathing, as I'm going up a steep hill (while trying not to drop the recorder!)

As posted upthread, sounds like it's coming from the BB area. Each cycle begins with my right foot pushing the crank down.

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #34 on: 13 January, 2022, 05:30:47 pm »
If you have swapped out BB and cranks and seen a change in the noise then surely that indicates some frame related issue around the bottom bracket area. Assuming cracks would have propagated or even failed by know I can only think of giving the BB threads a really good clean or even running a tap through?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #35 on: 13 January, 2022, 05:58:54 pm »
The sound and the component changes that affected the sound do indicate BB or nearby.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #36 on: 13 January, 2022, 10:09:31 pm »
Front rim nipples.  My LHT makes the same sound until I oil them.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

sam

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #37 on: 15 January, 2022, 09:45:55 pm »
LittleWheelsandBig, aka Dave, stopped round today, having come some distance to give my bike a listen and a look. He did this without charge, not even accepting money for petrol, my reward of a Conti GP5000 deemed sufficient (though he didn't ask for it).

We met at the village parking lot, a handy venue for mechanics as I discovered when someone started tinkering with several cars next to mine. At least I hope the guy wasn't hotwiring them, first responsibly taking care to top up the tyres with air for better mileage.

After the preliminaries Dave got down to business, taking my Litespeed for a few spins. (I had done exactly the same in advance, preparing myself for the bittersweet horror of finding that the noise had magically disappeared overnight.) He then set up a rather flash workstand and I got to see an actual mechanic in action, that being on his CV before he took to engineering.

It didn't take long for him to be satisfied that the issue is indeed with the bottom bracket.

He gave me a bottle of loctite and instructions. I hope to be riding a quiet bike again shortly. He wisely did not offer a guarantee, and said that he's wrong half the time (which I reckon is a better average than most), but I am confident that any continuing fault will be with either my application or a flaw in physical reality.

We also got the opportunity to go for a short tour of Jack Fuller's follies, and for a bit of instruction on riding a trike, which I find challenging to say the least. Fortunately there is no footage of my attempts.


The consultation begins.


Box of answers somewhat better provisioned than my own.


The quietest bottom bracket of all.


Looks like I started a queue for service.


Don't remember exactly what this is, but now I want one. 

He also loaned me a few tools. This is a bit like loaning books but much, much more dangerous.


Pointing out a poor weld on my En*gma.
That's right, it goes everywhere with me.


Trikin'

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #38 on: 16 January, 2022, 06:38:45 am »
What was the reward?

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #39 on: 16 January, 2022, 06:48:39 am »
That mystery tool looks like a Brompton hinge pin press.  If he used that on your creak, you have hitherto undocumented problems.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

sam

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #40 on: 16 January, 2022, 07:16:53 am »
Show and tell. The most interesting tool I could have offered in return would've been this,



from my typesetting days,


which worked perfectly to remove a seatpost shim.

The reward was the satisfaction that comes from having gone literally waaaay beyond to help someone with a vexing issue. Oh, and the tyre as mentioned above and in the OP. I realise I awarded it prematurely as per my own terms, and LW&B's wasn't the first suggestion of threadlock, but under the circumstances it was the least I could do.

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #41 on: 16 January, 2022, 10:26:30 am »
What caused the noise?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #42 on: 16 January, 2022, 10:37:53 am »
The creak showed up under high loads with RH pedal loaded at 2 o’clock and again at 6 o’clock.

When the cups were partially fitted, the BB threads allowed somewhat more movement of the cups than is ideal (rattled more than normal). There doesn’t look to be noticeable thread damage though. The LH cup needed some muscle to start undoing it. The RH cup was surprisingly ‘half tight’ to remove despite being ‘tight’ when the new Tange BB was fitted recently. Threads and cups were well greased but there appeared to be some wear to the inside of the LH cup.

I think there was enough relative movement between cup and BB under high eccentric load to slightly loosen the RH cup. Once the RH cup loosened enough, eccentric rotation stopped it loosening further, keeping it at the annoying creak stage. I think that light grade threadlock might be enough to stop the initial movement of the RH cup but still allow the BB to be easily replaced down the road. As noted above , I am often wrong but this seems like a good place to start. If the creak goes away for more than six weeks, I will count that as a win for me. If the noise sticks around, the bike wins.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #43 on: 17 January, 2022, 05:48:01 pm »
So it's the threads on the bbc shell being a bit oversize and not a good fit with the cups?

Maybe teflon tape would work as well.

And perhaps old style cup and cone bottom brackets with separate cups that can be tightened against the bb shell wouldn't have caused this noise.

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #44 on: 17 January, 2022, 06:03:20 pm »
Hmmm. Oz may have won the Ashes (just) but that's no excuse for that hat with those gloves - though the gloves are perfect with the trike.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #45 on: 17 January, 2022, 06:15:51 pm »
I have found out that the creak is back; louder and easier to initiate. The source is identified, the solution and perhaps the exact cause is not. Let battle (re)commence.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #46 on: 17 January, 2022, 06:21:14 pm »
Could it be the cups moving against the central "sleeve" of the bb?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #47 on: 17 January, 2022, 06:23:37 pm »
On the LH side, yes. There was some evidence of movement inside the cup but it was pretty well greased. I had thought about a shim but that would be time-consuming to do properly in a parking lot.

The RH cup is pressed onto the cartridge.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

sam

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #48 on: 17 January, 2022, 10:35:21 pm »
At this point I'm pretty sure this is not your normal everyday Litespeed Blue Ridge manufactured around the turn of the millennium; that indeed, part of the frame, specifically the bottom bracket area, actually exists in another dimension or astral plane or something (I'm not an expert on this), and the noise is being amplified through a wormhole. It's the only thing that makes rational sense.

Let battle (re)commence.

I am battle weary, but cheered that you haven't given up.

sam

Re: Solve my noise issue *Reward*
« Reply #49 on: 20 January, 2022, 04:58:22 pm »
I am provisionally declaring victory.

While I can't disprove the theory that a portion of the bike exists in another dimension, which would explain why some days it feels especially heavy going uphill, the solution was more prosaic. It was either the crank or the chainring. Both of which I've swapped before.

I think it didn't work last time because there were actually two different noises, the other one being the crank spider rubbing against the chainstay when the frame was under stress. I put in a longer bottom bracket,* meanwhile reinstalling the previous crank (a nice old Record), but still had a noisy bike, just slightly less so. This confusified matters, as George W Bush might say.

Anyway, when threadlock I put in the other day didn't do the trick, I removed the cranks again and tried to take the BB back out simply to see if I could. (I couldn't.) Then I started thinking, let's try that other crank and chainring again.

First I tried removing the chainring to see if that alone was the issue, but promptly stripped one of the bolts, so that's not going anywhere without outside help. (This reminded me of what Dave had said about how people often tighten the little things too much and the big ones not enough.) Then I put both the spare chainring and crank back on and headed out. 

Beautiful silence on every single hill.

So it could've been a bad crank or chainring. Or, all this grief happened because I had the chainring on the wrong way around. That's right, I buried what may be the lede.

On one side of the ring the bolt holes have a little shelf where the head of the bolt is supposed to sit. The last time I swapped chainrings and put this back on, I accidentally did it with that side facing the crank spider. I don't know if that was enough to cause the noise (perhaps with a small helping of unnoticed trapped grit), and am unwilling to test this theory even for the academic joy of it. Therefore the definitive answer shall stay a mystery.

It remains for me to publicly apologise to Dave for bringing him all the way down here for what amounts to user error. Having said that, it was his thorough evaluation of the BB, followed by really sealing it up tight, that prompted me to go back to thinking about the crank/chainring. So thanks for being a large part of the chain of events which yielded success.


* Went from 102mm ISO to 103mm JIS – actually quite a difference. I was surprised the chainline was fine, which means it was somewhat off in the other direction before, but still managed to work.