Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: Wowbagger on 19 July, 2020, 09:05:39 am

Title: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Wowbagger on 19 July, 2020, 09:05:39 am
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jul/19/national-cycle-network-sustrans-cuts-quarter-uk-routes-safety-grounds?fbclid=IwAR27Ols2mEantG8fRcMJZWbYJ51F6xEMPh8s87Pl6jfsxqoLFcK8O8qBk2A

On safety grounds. The Coast to Coast is no longer on their approved routes list.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: telstarbox on 19 July, 2020, 09:45:43 am
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Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: grams on 19 July, 2020, 10:02:45 am
It’s pretty vague on whether muddy footpaths and flights of stairs are going too.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Paul H on 19 July, 2020, 10:03:25 am
Rather than the headline, what the article actually says is
Quote
Almost 19% of the network will now be designated for experienced cyclists only, and 4.5% (753 miles) of busy on-road sections will have all signage removed.
It would be great if it was all suitable for every rider, that isn't likely to happen anytime soon, classifying it would seem a sensible thing to do in the meantime. 
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 July, 2020, 10:27:16 am
"46% bad."
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Tim Hall on 19 July, 2020, 10:53:10 am
"Traffic free". What a crap phrase that is.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 July, 2020, 11:01:24 am

"NCN that everyone has been criticising for poor quality in many places, finally recognises that large amounts of it are poor quality"

Or did I miss something?

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Canardly on 19 July, 2020, 11:36:35 am
^ This.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: grams on 19 July, 2020, 11:41:31 am
"NCN that everyone has been criticising for poor quality in many places, finally recognises that large amounts of it are poor quality"

Well not really. They're still pretending their collection of unpaved foot paths, flights of stairs and shared use pavements is a few summers of volunteering away from being a high quality national network.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: FifeingEejit on 19 July, 2020, 11:42:18 am

"NCN that everyone has been criticising for poor quality in many places, finally recognises that large amounts of it are poor quality"

Or did I miss something?

J
No, I remember their consultation and it was one of my comments and it seems very many others that much of what's been put in place is pish and they need some quality control.

The report of it noted that, this it seems is the outcome.

The first hints o saw of them being able to force councils to do "something more" was when they forced Dundee City to reduce an S4 stretch of road down to S2 significantly narrowing it, increasing space either side etc. All so they would get money to put the bridge in over the railway so you can get from Perth Road to the waterfront (although it's mostly used by students going to tesco, who of course put no extra money in at all over their normal rates and taxes).

Hopefully this is the start of them putting in decent infrastructure rather than accepting pish because they're upstarts and the councils only want the money.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 July, 2020, 11:44:58 am
Hopefully this is the start of them putting in decent infrastructure rather than accepting pish because they're upstarts and the councils only want the money.

Good. Maybe soon the dictionary will need updating.

Sustrans NCN: The longest route between two points...

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: rafletcher on 19 July, 2020, 11:53:50 am
Graun headline writers seem to be jumping on the Sun etc. bandwagon in their search for click bait
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 July, 2020, 12:06:41 pm
There's no indication in the article of anything being improved, only the removal of on-road sections from the official routes.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: citoyen on 19 July, 2020, 01:02:42 pm
It’s pretty vague on whether muddy footpaths and flights of stairs are going too.

Yesterday's rant (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10.msg2519376#msg2519376)

I did try riding the section of NCN2 west of Hythe on a road bike once. Think I'll stick to the 40mph busy main road next time.

See also: 'Cyclists dismount' signs.  >:(
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: citoyen on 19 July, 2020, 01:06:38 pm
There's no indication in the article of anything being improved, only the removal of on-road sections from the official routes.

Alas, I suspect improving conditions for cyclists on those main roads is out of their hands. The cycling lobby is not nearly as powerful as the motoring lobby.

On yesterday's ride, I pointed out to the boy that while I very much enjoyed the off-road route over the cliffs from Folkestone to Dover, back in the day I used to cycle along the main road, which was a single carriageway back then, rather than the pseudo-motorway it is today.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 July, 2020, 01:40:50 pm
I meant improving the off-road or 'traffic-free' sections, such as replacing steps with slopes at reasonable gradient (or having both options), removing slaloms and other barriers, giving everything some sort of surface that doesn't require an MTB and cyclocross skills, etc.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Adam on 19 July, 2020, 01:54:33 pm
Sustrans only own a very small part of the NCN.  It's down to the landowners who are the ones who insist on barriers, surface material used for construction etc etc.  Private landowners and councils seem to love putting barriers in as they think motorbikes and cars will be straining to zoom along the paths.  Even though motorbikes can often wiggle through them anyway.

I was active in the campaign for the Luton to Dunstable cycle path alongside the busway when it was built a few years ago.  Luton Borough Council insisted on installing 19 A-frame barriers along the 7.5km length, and that was one of many reasons why Sustrans in fact initially refused to include the path as a Sustrans route and it took about 3 years to get the council to remove them and improve the route, which is now NCN606.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: citoyen on 19 July, 2020, 02:15:01 pm
I meant improving the off-road or 'traffic-free' sections, such as replacing steps with slopes at reasonable gradient (or having both options), removing slaloms and other barriers, giving everything some sort of surface that doesn't require an MTB and cyclocross skills, etc.

Well, the current rethink only relates to on-road sections, and as grams says, it seems that they don't see anything wrong with those type of obstacles.

Their muddled thought process of focusing on "ordinary" cyclists, rather than those who wear lycra and ride nice road bikes, seems to have blinded them to the possibility that even "ordinary" cyclists don't like having to carry their bikes up flights of stairs, and don't much care for riding over rough, muddy terrain with rocks and tree roots to negotiate.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Adam on 19 July, 2020, 02:21:17 pm
Sustrans started a couple of years ago to put more pressure on landowners generally to remove barriers, and launched a review in 2018 to make changes.

https://www.sustrans.org.uk/about-us/paths-for-everyone/
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Polar Bear on 19 July, 2020, 02:38:08 pm
I have never been a great fan of Sustrans routes which are a mish mash of unsuitable surfaces, huge diversions and sometimes a hazardous stretch of very busy A road.

And, by having a network not adopted by the local authorities means inevitably that it cannot be maintained.  I don't like to say that I predicted this all those years ago, but I did.

Sustrans routes are in the main not fit for purpose.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: ElyDave on 19 July, 2020, 03:01:08 pm
It’s pretty vague on whether muddy footpaths and flights of stairs are going too.

Yesterday's rant (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10.msg2519376#msg2519376)

I did try riding the section of NCN2 west of Hythe on a road bike once. Think I'll stick to the 40mph busy main road next time.

See also: 'Cyclists dismount' signs.  >:(

THIS in spades, I followed the NCN From Ardrossan ferry terminal to Ayr, never again. It had me going along the prom with families eating ice cream, through a park with dog walkers, off the main road through Ayr along the river, over a footbridge to cross over the road I'd left into a pedestrianised area.   The next day towards Gretna had me leave a 40mph road, go through a caravan park, along a rutted track and back onto the same road, and separately through a forest.

The Ardrossan to Ayr sections were stupid and dangerous, whilst the other bits were just stupid.  Go off road by all means, but show that on the signs as an offroad section and an alternative on-road.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: grams on 19 July, 2020, 03:20:51 pm
My litmus test for this is NCN 33 north of Burnham-on-Sea which is literally just a soft sand beach with no sea wall or concrete path. I wouldn't want to try it on a  mountain bike.

Sustrans are never going to get permission or cash to pave a beach, the Strava global heatmap indicates hardly anyone is riding on it, and yet it's still on the updated map. WTAF? Do they think it's going to turn into a useful route somehow?

(http://fondantfancies.com/ncn33.jpg)
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 July, 2020, 04:22:46 pm
My litmus test for this is NCN 33 north of Burnham-on-Sea which is literally just a soft sand beach with no sea wall or concrete path. I wouldn't want to try it on a  mountain bike.

Sustrans are never going to get permission or cash to pave a beach, the Strava global heatmap indicates hardly anyone is riding on it, and yet it's still on the updated map. WTAF? Do they think it's going to turn into a useful route somehow?

(http://fondantfancies.com/ncn33.jpg)

That is seriously impressively awful!

Just... Wow...

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: simonp on 19 July, 2020, 04:32:55 pm
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: FifeingEejit on 19 July, 2020, 06:55:14 pm
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.

Tennis rackets on feet?
Snow Shoes
Mud Shoes?

Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Davef on 19 July, 2020, 07:07:51 pm
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.
Wait for high tide and swim ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Socks on 19 July, 2020, 07:30:07 pm
Having cycled in several European countries and seen how good things can be, I have some sympathy with Sustrans.  They have managed to persuade unsympathetic local authorities to support useful cycle routes, I'm sure they wouldn't have done so otherwise.  My impression is that the culture change required - cycling as a practical, healthy, environmentally good form of transport - still isn't recognised by politicians and highways engineers.

For example, there's a big road junction two miles from me.  Rebuilt a few years ago and despite this it has all the classic 1970's features.  Merging traffic lanes, traffic lights with no ASL, token cycle path which involves leaving the road and waiting at crossing lights, there's even the classic 'cyclists dismount' sign, for no apparent reason.

It would be nice to think that this review will help to encourage better cycle path and on-road cycle standards ....
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 July, 2020, 07:37:19 pm
Having cycled in several European countries and seen how good things can be, I have some sympathy with Sustrans.  They have managed to persuade unsympathetic local authorities to support useful cycle routes, I'm sure they wouldn't have done so otherwise.  My impression is that the culture change required - cycling as a practical, healthy, environmentally good form of transport - still isn't recognised by politicians and highways engineers.

For example, there's a big road junction two miles from me.  Rebuilt a few years ago and despite this it has all the classic 1970's features.  Merging traffic lanes, traffic lights with no ASL, token cycle path which involves leaving the road and waiting at crossing lights, there's even the classic 'cyclists dismount' sign, for no apparent reason.

It would be nice to think that this review will help to encourage better cycle path and on-road cycle standards ....

I always got the impression, that despite the trans in sustrans being supposedly "transport", that the aim of many sustrans were more aimed at cycling as leisure. Many of the routes are lovely if you want to go from a to somewhere that isn't a, via a scenic route. But if you want to be able to cycle from a to b for the purpose of achieving something at either a or b, say to goto work. Then no chance. Route 1 around Canterbury always seemed like this. The Crab and Winkle way part, from Canterbury to Whistable is lovely as a scenic ride, but if you wanted to commute from Canterbury to Whitstable, it's not a route you'd wanna take, not on a dark winter's eve when it's raining. Their route 18 section along the river was opened with much fanfare and celebration, and I used to use it to cycle to Chartham to get cake from the farmers market, but the cattle grids made it most unpleasant, the one time I tried to use it on the way back from college it was largely impassable due to sheep, and entirely unlit. Then of course it's underwater for a good 3 months of the year... and you don't wanna do it on 23mm tyres...

Shame really, they could have made a really good route for cycling from Canterbury to Ashford... or to Whitstable. or

sorry I'm ranting...

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: citoyen on 19 July, 2020, 08:04:58 pm
Route 1 around Canterbury always seemed like this. The Crab and Winkle way part, from Canterbury to Whistable is lovely as a scenic ride, but if you wanted to commute from Canterbury to Whitstable, it's not a route you'd wanna take, not on a dark winter's eve when it's raining. Their route 18 section along the river was opened with much fanfare and celebration, and I used to use it to cycle to Chartham to get cake from the farmers market, but the cattle grids made it most unpleasant, the one time I tried to use it on the way back from college it was largely impassable due to sheep, and entirely unlit. Then of course it's underwater for a good 3 months of the year... and you don't wanna do it on 23mm tyres...

I don't know when you last rode the C&W but it has been much improved in recent years - there are still a few roughish sections but the worst bits are now mostly tarmac. Personally, I would far rather use it for commuting between W and C than the A290 (which I live on) or the Radfall Road - the archetypal narrow, winding country lane with a 60 limit that many of the local drivers treat as a minimum target speed.

The route to Chartham has also been significantly upgraded and is fairly rideable in summer, though it does still have a couple of cattle grids and still has large underwater sections in winter.

Bizarrely, I was out walking the dog on the C&W recently when a motorbike came through - not just a yoof on a 50cc hairdryer, a grown-up bloke on proper big 500cc job. He was progressing oh-so-carefully, clearly knowing he shouldn't be there, but WTAF? I should have pushed the fucker off.  >:(
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Tim Hall on 19 July, 2020, 08:26:27 pm
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.

Tennis rackets on feet?
Snow Shoes
Mud Shoes?
Splatchers.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdt23xb8nhw2ij5/img-101.jpg?raw=1)
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Feanor on 19 July, 2020, 08:59:04 pm
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.

Can it be approached by water at high tide?
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 July, 2020, 09:04:46 pm

I don't know when you last rode the C&W but it has been much improved in recent years - there are still a few roughish sections but the worst bits are now mostly tarmac. Personally, I would far rather use it for commuting between W and C than the A290 (which I live on) or the Radfall Road - the archetypal narrow, winding country lane with a 60 limit that many of the local drivers treat as a minimum target speed.


2016 was when I last did it. Unless it's lit it's not going to work. Remember, we should be building cycle transport systems for 8-80. Would you be happy with kids cycling that way to get to school ?

Good that a lot more of it is Tarmac now, it used to be all gravel for the most part.

Quote

The route to Chartham has also been significantly upgraded and is fairly rideable in summer, though it does still have a couple of cattle grids and still has large underwater sections in winter.

Bizarrely, I was out walking the dog on the C&W recently when a motorbike came through - not just a yoof on a 50cc hairdryer, a grown-up bloke on proper big 500cc job. He was progressing oh-so-carefully, clearly knowing he shouldn't be there, but WTAF? I should have pushed the fucker off.  >:(

In summer... Again, not lit, would you let your kids ride to school on it?

I'm guessing said motorbike rider got lost and was trying to work out how to get out of there... or maybe following a sat nav?

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: citoyen on 19 July, 2020, 09:38:13 pm
Unless it's lit it's not going to work.

A fair point.

I used to cycle to school on unlit lanes with Ever Ready lights but that was Different Times.

Quote
it used to be all gravel for the most part.

I have quite a high tolerance for rough surfaces but I appreciate that not everyone does. Some years ago, I led some post-FNRttC riders back to Canterbury to get the train along the C&W and they didn't thank me for it.  ;D

Quote
I'm guessing said motorbike rider got lost and was trying to work out how to get out of there... or maybe following a sat nav?

Dunno - it's hard to get onto the C&W accidentally, I would think it has to be a conscious decision.

This was fairly early in lockdown, so I assumed he was simply taking advantage of there being fewer people about. Though I can't see what the advantage would be for a motorcyclist in using that route.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 19 July, 2020, 09:41:20 pm
Their muddled thought process of focusing on "ordinary" cyclists, rather than those who wear lycra and ride nice road bikes, seems to have blinded them to the possibility that even "ordinary" cyclists don't like having to carry their bikes up flights of stairs, and don't much care for riding over rough, muddy terrain with rocks and tree roots to negotiate.

I think their idea of 'ordinary' cyclists are basically those who dust the BSO off a few times a year in order to pootle 2 miles with their 6-10 year old.  As such their priority is  a) no cars  and b) see (a).

That might even be a fair assessment of the majority of BRITISH cycling.  Certainly it's what I'd expect to get if you hang around with a clipboard in the average park-that-happens-to-have-a-NCN-route-through-it.  I think that's also the priority of the average NCN pedestrian, who just wants some peace & quiet / breathable air while taking a useful shortcut, going for a run or emptying their dog.

They'll make a token nod to other flavours of cyclist, particularly those riding off-road bikes over pretty hills, and those commuting between Bristol and Bath, but seem to have a real blind spot for loaded tourists and faster cyclists who just want a minimum of faff.  I do genuinely think they grok the issues of non-standard cycles, child trailers and the like, but are limited by their lack of control over the physical infrastructure.

They've got this catch-22 problem where sticking their brand on any old rubbish to increase the on-paper size of the network gives them more credibility in the eyes of those allocating resources.  I think they've realised this wasn't working, and are now trying to achieve some sort of standards.  Unfortunately, their priority (for better or for worse) remains the avoidance of motor traffic.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 July, 2020, 09:56:16 pm
Their muddled thought process of focusing on "ordinary" cyclists, rather than those who wear lycra and ride nice road bikes, seems to have blinded them to the possibility that even "ordinary" cyclists don't like having to carry their bikes up flights of stairs, and don't much care for riding over rough, muddy terrain with rocks and tree roots to negotiate.

I think their idea of 'ordinary' cyclists are basically those who dust the BSO off a few times a year in order to pootle 2 miles with their 6-10 year old.  As such their priority is  a) no cars  and b) see (a).

That might even be a fair assessment of the majority of BRITISH cycling.  Certainly it's what I'd expect to get if you hang around with a clipboard in the average park-that-happens-to-have-a-NCN-route-through-it.  I think that's also the priority of the average NCN pedestrian, who just wants some peace & quiet / breathable air while taking a useful shortcut, going for a run or emptying their dog.

They'll make a token nod to other flavours of cyclist, particularly those riding off-road bikes over pretty hills, and those commuting between Bristol and Bath, but seem to have a real blind spot for loaded tourists and faster cyclists who just want a minimum of faff.  I do genuinely think they grok the issues of non-standard cycles, child trailers and the like, but are limited by their lack of control over the physical infrastructure.

They've got this catch-22 problem where sticking their brand on any old rubbish to increase the on-paper size of the network gives them more credibility in the eyes of those allocating resources.  I think they've realised this wasn't working, and are now trying to achieve some sort of standards.  Unfortunately, their priority (for better or for worse) remains the avoidance of motor traffic.

https://www.snelfietsroutesgelderland.nl/RijnWaalpad

This is what we should be building. And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages. Give it priority at every crossing of a road. If there are roads that can be used to have a nice segregated wide cycle route, even better.

Any questions, please look up Quixotic in the dictionary...

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 19 July, 2020, 10:06:13 pm
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 July, 2020, 10:07:22 pm
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)


Boring.

Seriously, go through the hills.

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 19 July, 2020, 10:49:01 pm
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)


Boring.

Seriously, go through the hills.

You are Elon Musk AICM5PBTC
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: FifeingEejit on 19 July, 2020, 11:45:44 pm
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)


Boring.

Seriously, go through the hills.

J

Where do you think this is, Norway or something?
Somehow boring tunnels in the UK is considerably more expensive than anywhere else in the world, even Norway...
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: cycleman on 20 July, 2020, 07:10:00 am
Fat trice ...... ;)
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 July, 2020, 08:08:23 am

You are Elon Musk AICM5PBTC

Meow!

That's mean!

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: ElyDave on 20 July, 2020, 08:45:57 am
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)


Boring.

Seriously, go through the hills.

J

Where do you think this is, Norway or something?
Somehow boring tunnels in the UK is considerably more expensive than anywhere else in the world, even Norway...

Who said anything about tunnels? Cuttings, my man, cuttings.

NCN 11, wot goes past the end of my road is actually not that bad in the main.  The really annoying bits are the 2ft wide, cracked and potholed surface along the river bank from Ely to Barway and the gravelled/mud section from Wicken towards Swaffham Prior, both of which are navigable, even in winter on 28mm tyres (but not a 'bent), but not really commute suitable.  The Barway section is passablem, but tricky to do so without a main road, the Wicken section is easily passable on decent back roads, which is now my new route of choice to Addenbrookes.   The section North to Kings Lynn by contrast is great - mostly on nice country lanes - audax style, even passing a few pubbes

Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 July, 2020, 08:52:02 am
Who said anything about tunnels? Cuttings, my man, cuttings.

NCN 11, wot goes past the end of my road is actually not that bad in the main.  The really annoying bits are the 2ft wide, cracked and potholed surface along the river bank from Ely to Barway and the gravelled/mud section from Wicken towards Swaffham Prior, both of which are navigable, even in winter on 28mm tyres (but not a 'bent), but not really commute suitable.  The Barway section is passablem, but tricky to do so without a main road, the Wicken section is easily passable on decent back roads, which is now my new route of choice to Addenbrookes.   The section North to Kings Lynn by contrast is great - mostly on nice country lanes - audax style, even passing a few pubbes

What about doing it on a hand cycle? or a cargo trike? or with a trailer?

If it can't take these, it's not suitable.

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 July, 2020, 09:32:40 am
I'd agree that Sustrans' conception of their routes is virtually all leisure focused. They do have some which are very usable and highly used by commuters but even their recent proposals for the Bristol-Bath route, which I'll find for you in a minute, indicate they don't really consider them as important (basically they're suggesting narrowing the path at key points by putting in a lots of extra shrubbery to create areas where people can sit around, channelling all the cyclists into one side; it's already way too narrow at peak times and though "speeding" cyclists are a problem, this isn't going to solve it*).

*Removing the Strava sections might help. Or adjustment to typical working hours...
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: ElyDave on 20 July, 2020, 10:21:28 am
Who said anything about tunnels? Cuttings, my man, cuttings.

NCN 11, wot goes past the end of my road is actually not that bad in the main.  The really annoying bits are the 2ft wide, cracked and potholed surface along the river bank from Ely to Barway and the gravelled/mud section from Wicken towards Swaffham Prior, both of which are navigable, even in winter on 28mm tyres (but not a 'bent), but not really commute suitable.  The Barway section is passablem, but tricky to do so without a main road, the Wicken section is easily passable on decent back roads, which is now my new route of choice to Addenbrookes.   The section North to Kings Lynn by contrast is great - mostly on nice country lanes - audax style, even passing a few pubbes

What about doing it on a hand cycle? or a cargo trike? or with a trailer?

If it can't take these, it's not suitable.

J

I wouldn't do the riverside section other than in good conditions, and not other than on a two-wheeler. I think that tells you everything.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Mr Larrington on 20 July, 2020, 01:38:01 pm
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)

I expect the canal builders of old worked it out.  Contour canal versus flights of locks, embankments, cuttings, tunnels, aqueducts and the Foxton Inclined Plane.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 20 July, 2020, 02:57:49 pm
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)

I expect the canal builders of old worked it out.  Contour canal versus flights of locks, embankments, cuttings, tunnels, aqueducts and the Foxton Inclined Plane.

Just add mud, nettles, a group of oiks waiting to push you off your bike and some NCN signs.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: yoav on 20 July, 2020, 05:56:49 pm
What I don't quite understand is, if a part of the route is deemed unsafe, e.g. the Hartside section of the C2C, does the whole route have its signage removed or just the unsafe bit? Does the C2C then cease to exist?
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: simonp on 08 August, 2020, 05:45:03 pm
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.

Tennis rackets on feet?
Snow Shoes
Mud Shoes?

I was thinking sea kayak. I got a tile today at Brean that was just a quick nip into the beach (literally) car park at Brean. The roads were rammed with cars. I didn’t hang about. The more tricky one is a bit further out.

There are some tiles further south along the same longitude which definitely seem too far out for bike or foot. Maybe I should look into the kayak idea. My dad used to tow his home built kayak to the seaside behind his bike.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Polar Bear on 08 August, 2020, 05:48:35 pm
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.

What are these "tiles" of which you speak?
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 08 August, 2020, 05:57:17 pm
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.

What are these "tiles" of which you speak?

Openstreetmap tiles, as used by the VeloViewer Explorer, Max Square and Max Cluster metrics.

(It's an excuse for a bike ride, basically.  Like filling in all the roads on your local OS map.)

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=108374.0 refers
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: ElyDave on 10 August, 2020, 06:24:33 am
I do have something of a habit of going down side roads, just on the basis of "hmm, wonder where that goes?", the answer round here being mostly nowhere as they stop abruptly at a drainage ditch.  Can't be added chasing yet another made up number though
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: simonp on 10 August, 2020, 02:39:08 pm
I do have something of a habit of going down side roads, just on the basis of "hmm, wonder where that goes?", the answer round here being mostly nowhere as they stop abruptly at a drainage ditch.  Can't be added chasing yet another made up number though

I’m up to a 15x15 max square from 6x6 (and max here was 5x5) due to covid. It’s something to do. Some off roading has been required so it’s an incentive to go off the beaten track.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 10 August, 2020, 10:29:21 pm
Yeah, in normal times I'd be touring or audaxing or indeed racing.  But as something to do from home it's a lot more interesting than riding the same handful of routes over and over.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 August, 2020, 07:42:53 pm

From twitter...


"Also accidentally tried to cycle through a prison on this ride. In fairness the barriers did look very similar to the ones on national cycle network routes"

https://twitter.com/theeyecollector/status/1294342259710754821

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 August, 2020, 08:19:09 pm
There's an audax, the Jack & Grace Cotton Memorial ride, that used to use an open prison as a control. Refreshments made and served by the prisoners.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 August, 2020, 11:28:34 pm
There's an audax, the Jack & Grace Cotton Memorial ride, that used to use an open prison as a control. Refreshments made and served by the prisoners.
Hm you've given me an idea, must contact Castle Huntly, would be odd for them to have people wanting to come in I suppose.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 16 February, 2022, 01:18:19 pm
3-years-on progress report: https://www.sustrans.org.uk/our-blog/news/2022/february/paths-for-everyone-three-years-on/

(click to show/hide)

I might be in cynic mode.  I watched a presentation about the West Kernow Way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkvXb4s0ic4) last night, which basically ended in "...Oh, you'll need to drive to the start."
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 February, 2022, 01:28:18 pm
I might be in cynic mode.  I watched a presentation about the West Kernow Way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkvXb4s0ic4) last night, which basically ended in "...Oh, you'll need to drive to the start."

Oh ffs.

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 16 February, 2022, 01:44:38 pm
I might be in cynic mode.  I watched a presentation about the West Kernow Way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkvXb4s0ic4) last night, which basically ended in "...Oh, you'll need to drive to the start."

Oh ffs.

To be fair to we arecyclingUK, they have almost as little control over GWR's cycle provision as GWR do.

It's all very well saying "You could always cycle there", but this is a largely off-road route with narrow technical sections that pretty much requires knobbly tyres and bikepacking tactics - the sort of thing most people would quite reasonably want to use a MTB or gravel bike for.  Which isn't ideal for covering large distances on road, even if you had the abundance of free time.

But the CTC have always been a bit like this.  If it's not cars, it's aeroplanes.  I assume it's what their demographic surveys tell them about their membership.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 February, 2022, 01:48:35 pm

To be fair to we arecyclingUK, they have almost as little control over GWR's cycle provision as GWR do.

It's all very well saying "You could always cycle there", but this is a largely off-road route with narrow technical sections that pretty much requires knobbly tyres and bikepacking tactics - the sort of thing most people would quite reasonably want to use a MTB or gravel bike for.  Which isn't ideal for covering large distances on road, even if you had the abundance of free time.

But the CTC have always been a bit like this.  If it's not cars, it's aeroplanes.  I assume it's what their demographic surveys tell them about their membership.

You'd think it should start and finish at a station.

Sustrans should be leading the campaign for bikes on trains in the UK as well.

J
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 16 February, 2022, 01:51:31 pm
You'd think it should start and finish at a station.

It does start in Penzance, which has an abundance of trains with massively oversubscribed inadequate cycle provision.


Quote
Sustrans should be leading the campaign for bikes on trains in the UK as well.

They've always seemed suspiciously quiet on the matter, which seems at odds with their name.  But so does their focus on leisure and exercise to the detriment of people wanting to cycle for transport (eg. being too eager to have 'cyclists should slow down' as their solution to poor design speeds).

The CTC don't achieve much, but they do regularly make noise about cycles on trains.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 February, 2022, 02:52:26 pm
Also in digested form here: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/feb/16/cycling-charity-launches-ambitious-plan-to-boost-uk-wide-path-network
Quote
However, there are concerns that at the current rate of progress – Sustrans, the charity that manages the network, will complete 416 miles of improvements by 2023, and has removed just 315 of 16,000 barriers – the goal of a barrier-free network could take another 150 years.

The charity owns only 2% of the network, much of which is on public roads, and its latest report into the state of the current NCN shows how far there is still to go. Only a third of the NCN is currently traffic-free. A third (33%) is classed by Sustrans as very poor, 61% good and only 2% very good.

Xavier Brice, Sustrans’ CEO, told the Guardian: “The idea of the National Cycle Network isn’t to, for example, replace the need for fully segregated high-volume cycle lanes in cities and towns, or to replace the need for neighbourhoods that are pleasant and easy to move around without a car. This is a strategic arterial core network.

I think the fundamental problem with NCN as a network of non-motorised transport routes is that they're chasing the wrong target; they're creating something that supplements roads rather than making roads welcoming to kids on tagalongs and grannies in mobility scooters. In a very few cases they've created something that replaces roads – but only for specific journeys. The Bristol-Bath path is great, totally kid-and-granny friendly – until you get to either end or unless you want to go to somewhere in the middle. Speed limits and modal filtering on minor roads, properly segregated and connected facilities on busy roads, would (eventually) serve not just every town and village but every building. But that would mean DfT providing for cycling and walking on the same basis it provides for driving.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Kim on 16 February, 2022, 06:42:05 pm
Quote
This is a strategic arterial core network.

...for dog-emptying?
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 February, 2022, 06:49:20 pm
I think that in the phrase "strategic core arterial network" there are three adjectives performing one function; to distract from the fact that it isn't, in fact, a network.
Title: Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 February, 2022, 08:55:52 pm
There's an audax, the Jack & Grace Cotton Memorial ride, that used to use an open prison as a control. Refreshments made and served by the prisoners.
"Waiter, there's a file in my cake"