Author Topic: Air Traffic Control failure.  (Read 3624 times)

ian

Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #50 on: 06 September, 2023, 09:21:18 pm »
There's a first, I suppose, for everything.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #51 on: 06 September, 2023, 09:36:42 pm »
Seems bizarre that having identified it didn't seem to be a valid route, rather than simply rejecting it, the system effectively switched off.

30+ years ago when I was submitting flight plans at Blackbushe Airport, I filled them out on paper, passed them to Reg, who ran the tower (technically a FIS operator not an air traffic controller but he acted like he was), who read through them and then handed them back if I'd done them wrong. 

For the interim report to state
"Clearly a better way to handle this specific logic error would be for FPRSA-R to identify and remove the message and avoid a critical exception. However, since flight data is safety critical information that is passed to ATCOs the system must be sure it is correct and could not do so in this case. It therefore stopped operating, avoiding any opportunity for incorrect data being passed to a controller"

is an abysmal admission of the failure to properly set up the automation to cover this scenario.

What's also worrying is that they couldn't easily work out which flight plan had caused the issue, which why they ran out of time for the 4 hour buffer of data and then had to switch to processing everything manually.  Surely their error logs showed what the system was doing at the time of the critical exception?



Edit:
Actually, thinking about it, as parts of NATS are based on 1960's technology, it's entirely possible the error logs are extremely limited in the actual data stored because 1960 computers obviously had very little storage space.
Given that the system wasn’t able to cope with an allowed set of data, I’d be surprised if the error trapping even existed let alone wrote anything to the logs.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #52 on: 06 September, 2023, 10:58:09 pm »
I have just spent a very interesting few minutes learning a bit about ATC waypoints as a complete novice.  It seems waypoint names are not unique and although those with the same names are usually some distance apart, it isn’t impossible for a flight to fly by two distinct waypoints with the same name.  Given that, I am surprised this event wasn’t foreseen and hasn’t happened before. Somehow,  I am less surprised that the system couldn’t cope with it.

As an aside, who knew that those responsible for naming waypoints in their national/ local airspace had a sense of humour.

https://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2015-06-02/a-pilot-explains-waypoints-the-hidden-geography-of-the-sky


Just on example from the article

Quote
On sky maps of the Tasman Sea, the triangles that denote the waypoints hanging like notes on a musical staff arcing toward New Zealand are marked WALTZ, INGMA, and TILDA—a reference to Australia’s unofficial anthem, “Waltzing Matilda”—while many thousands of miles west, running north to south over hundreds of miles of Indian Ocean off Western Australia, is a lyrical sequence that begins WONSA, JOLLY, SWAGY, CAMBS, BUIYA, BYLLA, and BONGS—“Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong . . .”

Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #53 on: 07 September, 2023, 02:45:12 am »
That’s how they create their passwords, too..
Move Faster and Bake Things

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #54 on: 07 September, 2023, 07:59:45 am »
Quote from: Adam
Seems bizarre that having identified it didn't seem to be a valid route, rather than simply rejecting it, the system effectively switched off.
My best *guess* is that because flight plans can't be considered as completely independent of other flight plans, say C depends upon B completing and B intersects A, so you can't just bin a plan because you then have a gap in the state.  That is a *guess* though.

Quote from: Adam
It seems waypoint names are not unique and although those with the same names are usually some distance apart, it
This is an old, old, *ancient* problem.  I have a John Smith, which John Smith am I dealing with?  I know, I'll look at his customer/other *unique* reference number.

My next *guess* is that naming of waypoints is done on a country or regional basis without consultation with other countries/regions and there is no central body keeping tabs on waypoints.  However a waypoint must have a lat/long and I would expect those to be unique so why waypoints weren't indentified in the code by lat/long rather than name does puzzle me.  It seems the obvious thing to do.
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #55 on: 07 September, 2023, 08:04:04 am »
My next *guess* is that naming of waypoints is done on a country or regional basis without consultation with other countries/regions and there is no central body keeping tabs on waypoints.  However a waypoint must have a lat/long and I would expect those to be unique so why waypoints weren't indentified in the code by lat/long rather than name does puzzle me.  It seems the obvious thing to do.

Ah! A use for What.Three.Words at last  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #56 on: 07 September, 2023, 10:43:23 am »
Where is Complete.Fuck.Up?
Move Faster and Bake Things

Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #57 on: 07 September, 2023, 10:49:44 am »
Get a bicycle. You will never regret it, if you live- Mark Twain

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #58 on: 07 September, 2023, 10:49:57 am »
https://youtu.be/jfOUVYQnuhw

Just dropping this in here...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Air Traffic Control failure.
« Reply #59 on: 07 September, 2023, 11:06:09 am »
It is simpler than it looks.