what I have learned today.

[T42]

Elohim is plural, so in the beginning gods created heaven and earth.  Or is that the editorial we at work?

I think it‘s thought to be like the Royal We.

Oh, I dare say a good deal of editing went into it. 

Meanwhile, I have discovered that if you suppress a dog's intestinal flora with antibiotics its shit doesn't stink.  Which was fortunate, given that I had to clear it up before breakfast.

[Cudzoziemiec]

So, let's put those together: "The beginning created god, with the heaven and with the earth"

There you go, Big Bang theory, in the bible.

Out of the whole of your long and erudite post, this is the bit I will remember, understand, am not surprised by and actually makes sense to me. Even without knowing anything about the commas.

[Mr Larrington]

That's all very well, Ham, but the KJV is definitive and, moreover, is written in English Just Like Jesus Spoke.  Blasphemer!

[Ham]

Blasphemer!

I believe so

[spesh]

That's all very well, Ham, but the KJV is definitive and, moreover, is written in English Just Like Jesus Spoke.  Blasphemer!

That's a bit harsh, it's not like Ham said "Jehovah" in his post.

[Ham]

Elohim is plural, so in the beginning gods created heaven and earth.  Or is that the editorial we at work?

...and I meant to add that the reason for that as far as I can see was that Judaism differed from almost everything that went before, as well as almost all other concurrent religions, in that it is a monotheistic religion. That's actually a real big deal in a world that split divinity and often had those gods warring against each other. With that in mind, that the first name used in the bible is the one that expresses that critical difference most clearly (all in one), is no surprise.

[Nuncio]

There's a 'Sourdough Saloon' in a hotel in Dawson, Yukon, that serves a 'Sourtoe' cocktail. To join the 'Sourtoe club' you must drink the cocktail and your lips must touch the severed human toe at the bottom. Since 1973 when it was established as a cocktail (using a toe in a jar of bourbon that had been in the hotel since 1930) around 7 toes have been used. Some of the previous toes have been swallowed, either deliberately or by accident.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sourtoe-cocktail

[pcolbeck]

Elohim is plural, so in the beginning gods created heaven and earth.  Or is that the editorial we at work?

...and I meant to add that the reason for that as far as I can see was that Judaism differed from almost everything that went before, as well as almost all other concurrent religions, in that it is a monotheistic religion. That's actually a real big deal in a world that split divinity and often had those gods warring against each other. With that in mind, that the first name used in the bible is the one that expresses that critical difference most clearly (all in one), is no surprise.

There is also a theory that there are actually two gods in the old testament not one. Two separate tribal traditions that eventually get mashed into one.

[T42]

Re mono- vs polytheism, there's an idea that monotheists tend to be more aggressive, via proselytism, oppressive laws or jihad, whereas polytheists tend more to take-it-or-leave-it.  Dunno to what extent that holds - Modi's actions at present seem to argue against it, if he isn't being just another cynical populist.

[caerau]

I'd be interested to hear more about that.  I love a good bit of amataeur history and my (amateur) reading of that sort of thing is that the 'benevolent' - you can worship anything you like - or 'religious toleration' thing was practiced by some of the actual most oppressive and murderous regimes in history.


E.g. Genghis Khan's mongols - you can worship anyone you want - but you better acknowledge us as overlords or you're dead and so are your family and your pets, and the rest of the city - and we may rape your daughters in front of you too.  Basically yes you were free to worship your own god - but otherwise a slave for them to abuse as they pleased.
Romans were not so far off - worship anyone you want as long as one of them is the emperor.  That's why Jews and Christians fared so badly with them - the 'one true god' thing didn't include a self-proclaimed god-on-earth.


A lot of the very famous religious *intolerance* is also usually a reaction to bad factors elsewhere.  Nations historically and peoples, tend to be quite relaxed when times are good.  Give them a dose of invasion, massacre, plague, famine etc. and the one-true god lot - who are usually led to believe that they are the chosen ones who god favours - look inwardly at what they've done wrong to deserve this punishment. Why have we angered god?  That's when those who don't worship god 'correctly' or those of other faiths get the short-end of the stick.  It also massively increases the proportion of zealots.  Perhaps we're not worshipping god hard enough, or enough...


Post-enlightenment period (US revolution, French Revolution type period-is up to now - we are still in this period) is when 'rationally' kicked in, the thought paradigm prior to that was that god was behind everything so bad things must be because of a punishment from God.  So what might now be debated as to reason or cause of bad things - would back then have been seen very differently.

[pcolbeck]

Rome didn't have a problem with Jews, in fact it gave them many privileges. What it did have a problem with and never tolerated was rebellion which is what the three Jewish wars were about, Judea trying to chuck the Romans out it wasn't about religion per se. By the third war the Romans had had enough and killed or enslaved most of the Jewish population of Judea. Jews outside Judea such as those in Galilee were left to carry in unmolested bar having to pay a new tax.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Re mono- vs polytheism, there's an idea that monotheists tend to be more aggressive, via proselytism, oppressive laws or jihad, whereas polytheists tend more to take-it-or-leave-it.  Dunno to what extent that holds - Modi's actions at present seem to argue against it, if he isn't being just another cynical populist.

Though some would argue Hinduism is mono- or even atheistic. And others say it has 33.3 million deities.

[ian]

I don't blame God for disasters. I blame the gays for making him angry.

[Pickled Onion]

That Henry Williamson, author of "Tarka The Otter" was a  fascist 

He went to my school, and certain masters were very proud to say so. Now I've seen your WIHLT, it figures.

[T42]

Re mono- vs polytheism, there's an idea that monotheists tend to be more aggressive, via proselytism, oppressive laws or jihad, whereas polytheists tend more to take-it-or-leave-it.  Dunno to what extent that holds - Modi's actions at present seem to argue against it, if he isn't being just another cynical populist.

Though some would argue Hinduism is mono- or even atheistic. And others say it has 33.3 million deities.

Most religions that I'm aware of are hierarchies with a boss god at the top and strata of sub-deities below. Depending on the distance between the boss and the lower echelons they're either polytheistic or monotheistic. The Greek & Roman gods were rather casual with each other unless Daddy got pissed off, but the vast difference in power between God and his underlings rules out any familiarity. Dunno about Islam - does it have archangels etc?

Another thing I heard on the radio years ago divided religions into two classes.  Some mostly tribal religions make becoming a full member a very painful procedure, usually happening at around puberty and involving knives/skewers/fire/genitals (delete as appropriate but genitals are usually obligatory), but once you're in nobody much bothers if you turn up for the happy clappy bits or not. The other class doesn't have a painful initiation but insists on regular sessions of submission and boredom to keep the flock well aware of who's boss.

[Mr Larrington]

There's a 'Sourdough Saloon' in a hotel in Dawson, Yukon, that serves a 'Sourtoe' cocktail. To join the 'Sourtoe club' you must drink the cocktail and your lips must touch the severed human toe at the bottom. Since 1973 when it was established as a cocktail (using a toe in a jar of bourbon that had been in the hotel since 1930) around 7 toes have been used. Some of the previous toes have been swallowed, either deliberately or by accident.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sourtoe-cocktail

I managed to forego that particular pleasure when I passed through Dawson City a couple of years ago, because I don't alcohol.  Well, that was one reason.

[Beardy]

Mr (and one assumes Mrs) Joe Average does not exist. Well, I suppose statistically there may be one individual whom matches every average data point, but he’s part of a very small group of people who have done so over the years.

This startling fact was discovered by the researchers working on behalf of the US Air Force when they were developing the first G-suits. They took 132 different measurements for over 4000 US airmen but when they were having problems with the resultant garment not fitting anybody properly, they revisited their data. They could not find a single individual who matched the average measurements.

More here
https://youtu.be/NbiveCNBOxk

[T42]

I remember Cliff Michelmore on Tonight in the 60s mentioning that Mr. Average Briton had one-third of an outside lavatory.

[Legs]

...and slightly less fewer than two legs.

[Kim]

I remember Cliff Michelmore on Tonight in the 60s mentioning that Mr. Average Briton had one-third of an outside lavatory.

We've got a third of an outside lavatory.  If you go by mortar, if not functional plumbing.

[T42]

...and slightly less fewer than two legs.

I'd go with less, 1.5 being less than two. Ha! Is this a principle? Does "few" only apply to whole numbers?

[spesh]

I remember Cliff Michelmore on Tonight in the 60s mentioning that Mr. Average Briton had one-third of an outside lavatory.

We've got a third of an outside lavatory.  If you go by mortar, if not functional plumbing.

So the outhouse looks like it took a direct hot from a mortar, then?

[Cudzoziemiec]

I remember Cliff Michelmore on Tonight in the 60s mentioning that Mr. Average Briton had one-third of an outside lavatory.

We've got a third of an outside lavatory.  If you go by mortar, if not functional plumbing.

So the outhouse looks like it took a direct hot from a mortar, then?

Does it have a shit hot hot seat?

[Kim]

I remember Cliff Michelmore on Tonight in the 60s mentioning that Mr. Average Briton had one-third of an outside lavatory.

We've got a third of an outside lavatory.  If you go by mortar, if not functional plumbing.

So the outhouse looks like it took a direct hot from a mortar, then?

Does it have a shit hot hot seat?

No, but it does have a bees' nest.  Suspected to be structural.

[spesh]