Author Topic: Cross Training: Running  (Read 399969 times)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1025 on: 29 April, 2013, 11:09:00 am »
Well done, David M and Matt C. Good efforts.

Wot no tail-runner?

Yes, but she was several minutes ahead.  :facepalm:

However, the back marker was also accompanied by her husband, who had already finished, and she's an old hand, so didn't need the tail-runner. I just tagged along to give support.

We have official pacers on ours too, though on an ad hoc basis rather than a standing fixture - anyone who wants to volunteer to be an official pacer can do so - there are appropriately marked hi-vis vests in the kit bag.

Quote
Lots of long steady runs does actually make you faster :) I haven't done a timed event since January, and negligible interval stuff.

True dat.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1026 on: 30 April, 2013, 08:41:34 am »
9K this morning,

I'm getting there.
Somewhat of a professional tea drinker.


David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1027 on: 30 April, 2013, 08:48:01 am »
According to Strava I now have a PR for 1/2 mile, 1k (exactly 5:00) and 1 mile (8:00) from the run in this morning. Slowly rediscovering a rhythm and teetering on the edge of jog -> run in terms of technique (I can hit a proper run but not for very long). Quite tricky when it is lumpy, with a rucksack and an all up weight >100kg. The calf muscles are slowly getting used to it - another few weeks and I should be able to run rather than jog for 5k. Average pace for 4.2k this morning was 5:19. Getting towards the tipping point when my fitness is such that it can maintain a pace rather than struggling to maintain a jog.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1028 on: 30 April, 2013, 05:40:29 pm »
Er... most of my training runs are done at slower than 8min-miles! And most of our midweek Running Club groups are 8mm or slower - for 5 miles.
It may be a lot slower than we can race at, but I'd still call it "running"  :(

(Perhaps by "run" you mean a racing pace? wodeva, it's just words I guess!)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1029 on: 30 April, 2013, 06:00:11 pm »
I thought the difference was one of intent - you run for a bus, you jog for exercise. ;)

Edit: Slightly less facetiously, I tend to think of "running" as having some kind of competitive element. If it's purely recreational, it's "jogging". Somewhere in between the two is "training". I don't think the difference is purely down to pace.

Edit 2: out of interest, I googled it and discovered that apparently, the default setting on Garmin devices is for sub-8min miles to be classified as running, and any slower to count as jogging. So David M is in line with Garmin's way of thinking, at least.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1030 on: 01 May, 2013, 06:48:26 am »
Edit 2: out of interest, I googled it and discovered that apparently, the default setting on Garmin devices is for sub-8min miles to be classified as running, and any slower to count as jogging. So David M is in line with Garmin's way of thinking, at least.
There is some good news here: this means it's pretty unfeasible for me to 'run' a marathon. So I needn't worry about not meeting that particular challenge :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Martin 14

  • People too weak to follow their own dreams, will a
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1031 on: 01 May, 2013, 08:15:28 am »
Edit 2: out of interest, I googled it and discovered that apparently, the default setting on Garmin devices is for sub-8min miles to be classified as running, and any slower to count as jogging. So David M is in line with Garmin's way of thinking, at least.
There is some good news here: this means it's pretty unfeasible for me to 'run' a marathon. So I needn't worry about not meeting that particular challenge :)

My daughter who runs with Sittingbourne Striders, says thats OK Matt, its perfectly acceptable to jog one  ;D
People too weak to follow their own dreams, will always find a way to discourage yours

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1032 on: 03 May, 2013, 05:03:57 pm »
Er... most of my training runs are done at slower than 8min-miles! And most of our midweek Running Club groups are 8mm or slower - for 5 miles.
It may be a lot slower than we can race at, but I'd still call it "running"  :(

(Perhaps by "run" you mean a racing pace? wodeva, it's just words I guess!)

I actually think it is more of a gait thing, like the difference between a horse doing a walk, canter, trot and gallop. I'd suggest it is a matter of technique.
Jogging is essentially upright and in balance where one foot is usually in contact with the ground.
Run1 is also essentially upright - you can readily stop in a couple of strides and are in a stable balance. Pace is generally quite short - on uneven ground you will be running into bumps rather than running over them.
Run2 is a lengthened gait where much of the time is spent out of balance (falling forward and dynamically stable). You will not be able to stop within a few strides  - it will take some distance to reassert balance and stop. Typically a much lengthened gait.

Shifting between the two definitely feels like going up a gear.

'race pace' is a function of the individual. For some race pace is a brisk walk, for others it is well into 'run2' and limited by their aerobic capacity rather than legs.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

mattc

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Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1033 on: 03 May, 2013, 05:52:11 pm »
My daughter who runs with Sittingbourne Striders, says thats OK Matt, its perfectly acceptable to jog one  ;D
That's very sweet of her!

ANYHOO ... Wiki uses the definition that I'm familiar with for "running":
 It is simply defined in athletics terms as a gait in which at regular points during the running cycle both feet are off the ground. This is in contrast to walking, where one foot is always in contact with the ground ...

DM's right in that one's gait changes with speed (of running!), although clearly it's a continuum. I do think that this variation in gait/technique is what makes run training a lot more complex than for cycling. On the bike you can do all your training with the same position, cadence, pedalling style, and with a bit of cunning variation in effort level, pretty much achieve any training goal.

On the other hand, I think that with running - and I stress I'm still only beginning to understand all this - you really do need to run with a variety of gaits/speeds, and you need to run with your race 'gait' for a reasonable amount of time for perfect preparation. [but there's a load of overlap - I've done negligible sprint training this winter, just plodding, yet felt quite happy running km5 last week flat out. That's not to say that speed-specific training wouldn't have made me faster ... ]

No doubt someone properly qualified can tell me what bolox this is :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1034 on: 03 May, 2013, 06:02:10 pm »
Sort of a continuum, but there are points where there are natural rhythms. Much easier to run at those points than slower or faster. These will change with fitness and weight.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

mattc

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Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1035 on: 03 May, 2013, 06:32:05 pm »
I don't believe that. Either you've trained mostly at those specific speeds, or it's all in your head.

There's a 'running' speed below which walking becomes more efficient - but I don't think that's what you're talking about. IMO it's definitely a continuum.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1036 on: 04 May, 2013, 10:48:49 am »
went to a parkrun today after two months break and set a pb! i'm still confused and thinking what i've done differently before and during the run (nothing!). anyway, well chuffed to get under 19min for the first time - 18:56!
otoh, the guy that was consistently finishing half a minute behind me now finished half a minute ahead of me - he must be doing some training (and became noticeably leaner as well).

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1037 on: 04 May, 2013, 11:53:40 am »
Nice one, zigzag!

I was hoping for sub-21 mins today but didn't quite manage it. Good training though - doing a local 10k on Monday, my first time at the distance under "race conditions".
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1038 on: 04 May, 2013, 07:36:28 pm »
Ran home from the lab. 6.3km or therabouts. 35 minsish. First 3k into a stiff headwind, next 1.5 with 60m ascent. Then added about 3 miles walking onto it this afternoon. I ache a little now.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1039 on: 05 May, 2013, 07:13:34 pm »
I've been catching up on some running 'social networking' sites. Couple of amusing videos:

From the US 50miles champs:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/uPx5mSZmkP8&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/uPx5mSZmkP8&rel=1</a>

Comments demonstrate a bit of UK/US schism:

US:
Way to go Vicky! Inspiring. Love the Rocky music at the end.
... etc ....

UK:
Elizabeth Ellis: This gets my vote for the most irritating husband award! How anyone can run 50 miles with him carping on in the background is beyond me.

Meanwhile, this is my favourite from the VLM so far:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/iCqSXbayHh0&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/iCqSXbayHh0&rel=1</a>

[both from Marathon Talk, which I really rate]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1040 on: 06 May, 2013, 03:58:14 pm »
44.41 on today's 10k. Thought I wasn't going to break the 45min barrier but I put on a strong finish - splits in final 2km were 4.16 and 3.54! Very pleased with that.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1041 on: 06 May, 2013, 08:39:47 pm »
ran the nearly 5k home via the observatory (average 5.1% for a 100m height gain). Elapsed time was over 2mins faster than moving time last time (32 andabit vs 34andalot) but the phone had failed to lock a GPS signal so no record for Strava :( Seemed to have over run on the calf as it is rather tight and painful.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1042 on: 07 May, 2013, 09:12:06 am »
Left calf still very tight this morning so went in gently. About 6 min/km pace with a stretch stop part way. Walked the last 300m (of the 4.2km) to try to ease it.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1043 on: 07 May, 2013, 09:29:39 am »
good effort citoyen and David! i was planning to do some riding on sunday/monday, but my legs were still very sore and stiff after the parkrun, so ended up doing housework instead (which was long overdue)..

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1044 on: 07 May, 2013, 12:04:54 pm »
Lower left calf feels like it has spasmed or cramped and is very tight and a little painful. Probably ease back and not run until the weekend
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1045 on: 07 May, 2013, 12:26:43 pm »
On the other hand, I think that with running - and I stress I'm still only beginning to understand all this - you really do need to run with a variety of gaits/speeds, and you need to run with your race 'gait' for a reasonable amount of time for perfect preparation. [but there's a load of overlap - I've done negligible sprint training this winter, just plodding, yet felt quite happy running km5 last week flat out. That's not to say that speed-specific training wouldn't have made me faster ... ]

No doubt someone properly qualified can tell me what bolox this is :)

A friend of mine is a big fan of chi running, which - to over-simplify - advocates shorter strides and higher cadence. Since he has been following chi running principles, he has developed a very elegant running style and has got noticeably faster. He also gets fewer injuries. I think I need to look into it myself...

http://www.chirunning.com/
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1046 on: 07 May, 2013, 12:50:28 pm »
10k this morning before work, Got out and back in 1:12:54.

The first 7k felt fine just moving along comfortably, the last 1k was interesting, but at least it was downhill.

On the other hand, I think that with running - and I stress I'm still only beginning to understand all this - you really do need to run with a variety of gaits/speeds, and you need to run with your race 'gait' for a reasonable amount of time for perfect preparation. [but there's a load of overlap - I've done negligible sprint training this winter, just plodding, yet felt quite happy running km5 last week flat out. That's not to say that speed-specific training wouldn't have made me faster ... ]

No doubt someone properly qualified can tell me what bolox this is :)

A friend of mine is a big fan of chi running, which - to over-simplify - advocates shorter strides and higher cadence. Since he has been following chi running principles, he has developed a very elegant running style and has got noticeably faster. He also gets fewer injuries. I think I need to look into it myself...

http://www.chirunning.com/

When I started running in regular running shoes, I was suffering from pain in the shins, I've since switched to barefoot shoes and modified my gait and how I land my feet and all the pain (apart from the tired pain) has gone. I get sore feet towards the end of a new distance but I seem to adapt fairly quickly.

I might take a look at this chi running and see if I can tie it with the barefoot.
Somewhat of a professional tea drinker.


citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1047 on: 07 May, 2013, 12:52:03 pm »
My chi-running friend runs in barefoot shoes, so it's definitely compatible.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1048 on: 07 May, 2013, 11:00:49 pm »
<searches ...>

This thread fisrt discussed barefoot* running in 2010, but this looks like the nicest resource to start with:

Those intrigued by the barefoot running thing might want a look at this 15 minute TED talk by Born to Run author McDougall (it's not new so you might already of seen it):

http://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_mcdougall_are_we_born_to_run.html

I'm not at all convinced he's got his evolutionary history right but I still find him quite inspiring.

"We are the biggest sissies in the jungle. Every other animal is stronger than we are — they have fangs, they have claws, they have nimbleness, they have speed. We think Usain Bolt is fast — Usain Bolt can get his ass kicked by a squirrel.” (Christopher McDougall)

*see also Chi, POSE etc etc ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #1049 on: 08 May, 2013, 07:46:11 am »
A friend of mine is a big fan of chi running, which - to over-simplify - advocates shorter strides and higher cadence. Since he has been following chi running principles, he has developed a very elegant running style and has got noticeably faster. He also gets fewer injuries. I think I need to look into it myself...

http://www.chirunning.com/

I know pretty much sod all about running. When I played at it in 2010 and 2012 I did what I thought would reduce the risk of injury and applied what I knew from cycling to running.
I went for short strides at high cadence too. I figured that jumping from a great height once would be more damaging than jumping from a much lesser height many times and scaled that down to my running stride.
Also that pushing a big gear (big strides) requires strength, which I don't have for running (and that really showed up when I did the marathon last year!) Neither do I have good fleibility.
I managed to get around a marathon with 3 months of minimal training injury free, though I wasn't over the moon with the time it took, which isn't really surprising.