Author Topic: What laptop?  (Read 7577 times)

SoreTween

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #25 on: 25 March, 2018, 12:52:47 pm »
D.A.L.E. nailed it - MacBook pro.

1) itunes on windows is an abomination.
2) Watching video is on the use list but way down the list.  The perfect screen for watching video is 16:9 aspect ratio but 16:9 screens are sub-optimal1 for everything else irrespective of their resolution.  All laptops are 16:9.  All of them.  Dell, HP, Lenovo, Acer, Fujitsu, Asus, Toshiba etc etc etc.  Every single mofo one of them is 16:9 with two exceptions, MacBooks and Microsoft Surface.

If Red Ted lives get a new one, if not get a refurb.  From that point on I'm no help as I don't know2 the MacBook range and wouldn't know a good refurb MacBook deal if it fell on me.

1Understatement.
2Other than the fact they have screens I deperately wish I could get on the sort of Business laptop Afasoas describes for the reasons Afasoas describes.
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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #26 on: 25 March, 2018, 12:56:58 pm »
The perfect screen for watching video is 16:9 aspect ratio

No it's not.  A perfect screen for watching video has some letterbox space to put the subtitles so they don't overlap the image.

Afasoas

Re: What laptop?
« Reply #27 on: 25 March, 2018, 03:58:20 pm »
Installing the operating system with all the appropriate drivers is in most cases more challenging than swapping out the hardware.
And the nice clean install of the operating system means you avoid all that pre-loaded skunkware that manufacturers insist putting on laptops these days.

This is the sticky point.  Butterfly describes a current laptop that for some reason "isn't interested in word-processing".  That's clearly not a hardware problem (though it sounds like it has some of those too), and whatever the underlying cause could doubtlessly be resolved by a clean OS install.

But that's the sort of thing that's straightforward (if tedious) for people who do tech stuff, but a massive risk for people without the background knowledge to be reasonably sure that they'll be able to fight off the sharks and end up with some semblance of a working computer in time for $next_important_thing.

Normal often people often fix software problems by buying new computers, and that isn't entirely irrational.  They end up with a better computer, don't lose their existing state, and spend less of their life staring at progress bars.


Not disagreeing that business-oriented laptops are easier[1] to service, though.  For reasons that directly follow from the above.



[1] Although some do tend to fall foul of clean-the-fan issues.

I'm not disagreeing - it's unfortunate that it is my best recommendation because of the pitfalls* involved. The alternative is usually a device that:
- has an overly shiny screen
- has horrid keyboard (unless you get spendy)
- has any performance advantage that is half neutered with skunkware that that takes eons to remove
- is difficult to repair

The other option is get really spendy and buy an iThing, which have in my experience have been equally problematic as Windows Laptops

*pitfalls can be somewhat tempered - with a Dell laptop for instance, you can obtain all the necessary drivers by visiting dell.co.uk/support, typing in the service tag and clicking downloads. In most case, the only driver that's needed with the wireless networking driver - once connectivity to Microosft Update is established, Windows will usually install most of the remaining drivers automagically. The worst part about this procedure is the requirement to have another working computer in the house to enable the process. The second worst part is that, if you are buying an ex-business laptop and you want to install Windows 10 on it, you could wind up having to buy your own Windows 10 license/media as the machine may not already be appropriately licensed

Re: What laptop?
« Reply #28 on: 26 March, 2018, 09:44:40 am »
Most people who recommend Macbook Pros as being immeasurably superior  have  (probably) never handled really top-end windows laptops

I bought an Asus zenbook for my daughter, from xsonly, a 'return to factory' as new. It was a machined from single block of aluminum piece of loveliness that when it arrived here (at work) made jaws drop. We have several Mac enthusiasts here (they do windows development on macs by preference) and they were gobsmacked that a Windows machine could be like that. Physical build quality was easily the equal of a Mac. Just a different OS on board.

Pricing is a bit less than a Mac.

You get what you pay for.

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Morat

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #29 on: 26 March, 2018, 02:43:33 pm »
To be fair, Macbook Pro did set the standard when it came out but other manufacturers have raised their game. Then again, I've never had an iTunes account so I don't know what I'm missing on Windows :)

I think the first question Butterfly needs to answer is "Windows or Mac?"* and then we can teeter back from the brink of re-opening a very long and boring debate.

*I'm assuming linux isn't an option as most linux users know exactly what hardware they want.
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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #30 on: 30 March, 2018, 09:55:22 pm »
I'd say Windows, because that is what I'm familiar with - I've only had one short job where I used a Mac, and didn't have and issues, but didn't really use it much - only for calendar stuff.

Kim has it - I have absolutely no technical understanding. The last time I had an office job, all the details were still on cards in filing cabinets (Registry, GMC, 1989) and at uni I had a secondhand word processor that had it's own stand and didn't stay long anyway, so I have never had to have any working knowledge of the things. I have no idea what an HDD is, let alone how to swap it for an SSD, whatever that is. I either need something that will work as is, or I need someone to do stuff for me or explain with diagrams and arrows.
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Kim

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #31 on: 30 March, 2018, 10:49:16 pm »
In which case it's time for a metaphor:  The hard disk (well, disks generally, and in the old days things like tapes and punched cards) works like a filing cabinet.  It's where the computer stores stuff[1].  In contrast the memory (RAM) is like the cards you have out on your desk.  It's right there in a place where you can read it, but if you don't put it away in a filing cabinet by the end of the day (ie. when the computer's switched off) the cleaners will bin it and you'll lost its contents forever.

So both are important.  More memory (a bigger desk to spread more cards out on) means the computer can do more stuff at once, without having to keep going back to the filing cabinet to put things away to make space all the time, which speeds things up.  More disk (more filing cabinets) simply means you can store more stuff.

Because we're living in The Future, technology has progressed to the point where you can use a kind of RAM chip (one that's quite slow compared to the ones actually used for memory in proper computers, but that keeps its contents when you turn the power off) to store things instead of disks and tapes coated in magnetic stuff moving past read/write heads[1].  Wire them up in a way that pretends to work the same way as a hard drive, and put them in a case that fits the same physical space, and you've got a Solid State Disk (SSD).  It's faster than a traditional hard disk, uses less power, and doesn't break if you drop it, but it's also more expensive for the same storage capacity.  These are obviously ideal for laptops, where power consumption and being dropped are major considerations.


[1] Including the Operating System[3], your applications software, all your documents and media, and a load of random files the OS and applications programs have to create for their own purposes that you don't normally care about.
[2] Same sort of thing that's used to make the internal memory on your phone, SD cards, USB flash drives and so on.
[3] A suite of software that works as a middle layer between the physical computer and the useful programs you want to run.  It takes high-level instructions like "draw me a window on this bit of the screen and put this text in it" or "send this packet to such-and-such-an-address-on-the-network" and turns them into a binary instructions for the graphics chips or wifi interface, as well as taking care of boring but important things like running more than one program at the same time and dealing with whereabouts on the disk a given file is actually kept.  End users don't need to care about most of this stuff though, what ultimately matters is what applications can run, what type of computer you can use it on, and what the user interface (things like windows and mouses and command lines and icons and touch screens and so on work) is like.  Operating systems are things like Windows, OSX, Linux, iOS and Android.  Applications software is often available for multiple operating systems (eg. there's a version of the Chrome web browser for all of those), but sometimes not (eg. Microsoft Word is only available for Windows and OSX, and the OSX version's arguably bit rubbish).

Afasoas

Re: What laptop?
« Reply #32 on: 30 March, 2018, 11:05:44 pm »
Hard disk drive (HDD) is a bit like an old record player, with 2 or 3 records stacked in it and a separate stylus on each one. The stylus has to get into the correct position to read or write from/to the disk, which means that for certain types of reading and writing (random access) they are slow.

Solid state disk (SSD) uses high densities of transistors in a number of largish chips and don't have any moving parts, which make them much faster than HDDs. They tend to be a bit less fragile and will more likely survive a moderate sudden impact than a HDD.

If a laptop with a HDD feels chuggy and slow (assuming that's not due to a fault or resource-hogging software), replacing the HDD with an SSD can give it a new lease of life - my current laptop is about 6 years old and I'm sure it will offer me enough performance for the next six years providing I don't drop it.

In larger capacities, HDDs are a lot cheaper than SSDs. The SSDs bundled with more affordable laptops tend to be quite small - which in theory is fine if you are happy to store things on the cloud.

For a budget laptop, I'd look at a Lenovo E570. I recommended the prior revision to a relative and they seemed very happy with it. Not a flash looking laptop by any means, but well built with a reasonable display, enough performance and a nice feeling keyboard (much better than that on the low end Lenovo laptops which are awful)

I quite like the Dell XPS laptops if you want lighter/thinner and don't mind being more spendy. Any repairs/upgrades will mean spudging the laptop case apart but at least it's not glued together, which is one reason for avoiding Microsoft Surface.

Asus laptops all seem to suffer from the charger socket wearing out after ~18 months and replacement means desoldering the old one and soldering on a new one. I have one in the garage waiting for me to get to grips with soldering. A  colleague is on his fourth socket now and keeps spares in stock.

I've never been a fan of HP laptops. I would avoid Acer. Fujitsu and Toshiba used to be renowned for build quality but I've not had any experience with recent examples.

Re: What laptop?
« Reply #33 on: 08 April, 2018, 08:43:39 am »
Have you considered a Chromebook? Dead cheap, and you use your docuemnts on Google Drive.

I don't think Netflix works on them though (I may be wrong)., and I doubt you can lpay movies from a DVD drive.
Printing is weird also - you need a Google cloud printer. It will nto talk to any old printer plugged in via USB.
Otherwise chromebooks are great things - they are bombproof, you just wipe it and get back the configuration if anything goes wrog with it.
+1 to chromebooks. I abandoned windows laptops after mine died and it came back from its warranty repair with the windows update licensing screwed. Chromebook cost £170, tough sleek metal case, fast, does everything I need, looks great, syncs with android tab. Mine prints fine to an old HP printer via a usb cord, no need for cloud complications.

vorsprung

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #34 on: 08 April, 2018, 08:49:43 pm »
i just bought a refurb toshiba Z30 from Morgans

It weighs approximately nothing, I installed Ubuntu on it and put 16GB of RAM I had lying about in it.  Quite pleased.  Not quite the CPU of the old one.  Old one was A Lenovo with i7 8 cores.  The Toshiba is i5 with4  but minikube starts in 1 minute
Oh and the Toshiba has an SSD

Re: What laptop?
« Reply #35 on: 12 April, 2018, 09:33:17 am »
Currently using my Chromebook  for most  things.  It's an ACER 14   which looks like a Mac..

Begining to wonder why I paid  for Windows 365 etc... If Gmail worked as well as Outlook then I'd leave MS completely.

Woofage

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #36 on: 12 April, 2018, 03:18:27 pm »
Do consider a Chromebook. We bought one for Miss W and she's delighted with it. It has a long battery life (all day use) and is very light. It also means I don't have to nag her to back up her files as Big Brother Google looks after them. It also cost a lot less than a decent entry-level laptop yet it's build quality is miles better. It's only downsides are a low-ish screen resolution (but that can be fixed by spending a little more cash on the next model up) and it can't edit video.
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CrinklyLion

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #37 on: 12 April, 2018, 05:17:19 pm »
Butterfly - remember that thing where you had a broken/lost/something phone, and lost all your diary bookings etc and contacts and it was all a nightmare?  And then you signed in to your google account on the replacement phone and it gave you your life back?  And it was like magic?

Chromebook*.  I mean obviously it involves selling your soul to the evil empire but you already have an android phone so that ship has sailed....

Google Docs for wordprocessing.  You can tell it to also work in offline mode, which means you can word process when you haven't got wifi and when it gets back in signal it synchs it all up.  Google drive to store loads and loads of shite.  The same google account as you sign into your phone with, and the email/calendar etc all just synch up across both devices.  Chromebook breaks?  No problem, replace it and sign in to the replacement with the same google account and there's your stuff.  They don't generally have DVD drives though.

They are small and light and relatively sturdy and relatively cheap, and basically good for things web-based, and I know schools where things along the lines of this
http://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/cty/pdp/spd/chromebook-11-3180-laptop/sm002chb318011uk
have survived 4 or 5 years of classroom use. 

In schools with both chromebooks and laptops the kids often like the chromebook for doing the webby stuff because they are quick to boot/log on etc - these are Dell entry level chromebooks compared with Dell i3 laptops of the same age.  I like the fact that some of 'my' kids are getting canny at choosing the right tech for the job.





*I know (and am mildly sarcastic to/about) a fair few absolute chromebook fanboys (nearly all actually blokes, interestingly enough) in schools and have the reputation among many of them for being anti-chromebook for some reason.  Just because I point out, often, that the stuff they are raving about that they claim will be transformational for education is kind of predicated on 1-2-1 devices and there ain't nobody round here got the money for that, plus they have this weird idea that chromebooks will transform the teaching of Computing and then just use them (to great effect, don't get me wrong) for Bloody_Writing_And_English which isn't Computing AT ALL, plus also what they think of as 'using chromebooks' is REALLY just using Google Apps for Education - which is (genuinely) really ace but is platform independant.  You can do ALL the shit they are so evangelical about on a PC, or a laptop, or a iThing, or an android tablet, or pretty much anything.  You'd probably have to sideload to get it onto a Kindle.  It's not about the chromebooks, people!  Also Google isn't the same as Chrome isn't the same as a chromebook.  I blew someone's mind the other day by using GApps in Firefox....

Kim

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #38 on: 12 April, 2018, 05:24:03 pm »
Aren't they really stingy about local storage, thobut?  I know the philosophy is that everything's supposed to be in the Evil Empire's cloud, but that's no good when you're in a muddy field surrounded by actual clouds and the prevailing GPRS compares unfavourable to *dry* string.  In fact, how usable is ChromeOS without an internet connection?

Graeme

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #39 on: 12 April, 2018, 06:17:46 pm »
Late to the conversation Butterfly. As usual.

My daughter had a Chromebook until recently. She absolutely loved it. Everything she wanted was accessible by her phone or the Chromebook whenever she wanted it. Her dissertation never got lost and she treated the device with very little respect. By the time it eventually died the screen had been falling off for over 12 months. The keyboard was duct taped into place and every edge was scuffed and scratched. But it worked. And she never lost files or data. By the way... The device was robust - her behaviour with the device was less than conscientious.

Me. I prefer a laptop. I love Kim's description of the desk / filling cabinet analogy. I went to Lenovo outlet - but I'm not sure that's operating anymore. I got mine in 2014 with the last of my bonus before I became poor.

Are Chromebooks still widely available? My daughter's going to need a new one.  :-[

Re: What laptop?
« Reply #40 on: 12 April, 2018, 06:33:39 pm »

Are Chromebooks still widely available? My daughter's going to need a new one.  :-[

Yup, there are lots!

I replaced my old Samsung XE303, which finally gave up the ghost, at the beginning of this year with an Asus C202S - it's not the highest spec thing out there, but for what I use it for (just general browsing, really) it's great. It's the more "rugged" version designed for schoolchildren, so I figured it should survive a bit of abuse.

My laptop died years ago and I haven't felt the need to replace it - the Chromebook just works with no fuss.

Mr Larrington

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #41 on: 12 April, 2018, 07:16:35 pm »
How nicely do Chromebooks play with other hardware one might wish to plug into them, particularly meeces and cameras?
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CrinklyLion

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #42 on: 13 April, 2018, 09:22:49 am »
We use them with usb mice sometimes, and I've plugged in a usb webcam which worked happily.

Re: What laptop?
« Reply #43 on: 13 April, 2018, 09:25:31 am »
Currently using my Chromebook  for most  things.  It's an ACER 14   which looks like a Mac..

Begining to wonder why I paid  for Windows 365 etc... If Gmail worked as well as Outlook then I'd leave MS completely.

Yes mine is an acer14. A thing of beauty. Great battery life. Now and again i get the old laptop out and it seems so damn clunky by comparison.

Woofage

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #44 on: 13 April, 2018, 09:54:13 am »
Aren't they really stingy about local storage, thobut?  I know the philosophy is that everything's supposed to be in the Evil Empire's cloud, but that's no good when you're in a muddy field surrounded by actual clouds and the prevailing GPRS compares unfavourable to *dry* string.  In fact, how usable is ChromeOS without an internet connection?

Probably, but then most people don't need lots of (local) storage for everyday stuff. Horses for courses. You can connect to a NAS just like a "proper" 'pooter, apparently.

I've never used a Chromebook myself so I don't know how things are off-line but Miss W hasn't reported any difficulties in that respect.
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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #45 on: 13 April, 2018, 10:01:06 am »
I've never connected much to mine - have used a USB mouse on occasion, and I often plug my Garmin Edge in to upload/download stuff, which works fine (Garmin Express won't work with ChromeOS, of course, but the Chromebook sees it as an external drive which suits my purposes).

Graeme

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #46 on: 13 April, 2018, 10:36:39 am »
My daughter connected her webcam and had no problem, it also had enough local storage for her but she never 'worked' anywhere where there wasn't a network signal. She put a sticker on the front that said, "Does this wifi have a cafe?" - is working from a laptop in a field an important thing for you Butterfly?

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #47 on: 14 April, 2018, 09:37:23 am »
In which case it's time for a metaphor:  ...
Can you extend the metaphor to include virtual memory systems and paging and swapping?  :P  ;D

Popular confusion between volatile and permanent storage isn't helped by in-store descriptions of tablets.  John Lewis (the Reading branch at least) are particularly bad in this respect.  They use "memory" to refer to both RAM and SSD, often differently on two machines displayed next  to each other.  It's only the size which gives a clue as to which type of "memory" is being described.
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Kim

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #48 on: 14 April, 2018, 12:21:34 pm »
In which case it's time for a metaphor:  ...
Can you extend the metaphor to include virtual memory systems and paging and swapping?  :P  ;D

Well that's obvious.  It's variations on tidying up as you go along because the place is a tip and there's nowhere to put things down.

Caching is not putting things away because you might need them again...

Woofage

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Re: What laptop?
« Reply #49 on: 14 April, 2018, 12:41:22 pm »
Virtual memory is a bit like putting stuff on top of the filing cabinet across the room because you've run out of desk space. It will be cleaned away at the end of each day but is still accessible (although less quick to get to). The top of the filing cabinet is always available because it's reserved for that purpose.
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