Author Topic: Sapim Force spokes  (Read 3233 times)

Sapim Force spokes
« on: 05 June, 2018, 05:47:43 pm »
Getting some wheels built.

I want to use Sapim Race (being the Sapim equivalent of DT Competitions which I've never had an issue with), they're solid and a sensible weight, professional wheelbuilder who knows what he's talking about and does this for a living wants to use Sapim Force. I just see them as overkill and needlessly heavier (although, I believe, not by much, I've not Googled it yet).

Wheels are an audaxy build, trying to hit a sweet spot between being light enough to be fast and heavy enough to be reliable.

Will I even notice a difference with these spokes over the Race? I just can't shake the nagging feeling that these spokes are overkill and therefore heavier and therefore slower.

Basically, I want someone to stroke my hair and tell me it's going to be OK.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #1 on: 05 June, 2018, 06:25:57 pm »
Hush now, shh. According to Sapim's info, the weight difference between force and race for 64 260mm spokes is 17g, so worst case it won't be more than 25g difference for the wheelset; it will all be ok.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #2 on: 05 June, 2018, 06:56:30 pm »
It's his way of telling you to lose some weight ;D

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #3 on: 05 June, 2018, 07:07:12 pm »
It's his way of telling you to lose some weight ;D
If I had a set of wheels I could ride my bike for exercise.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #4 on: 05 June, 2018, 09:38:30 pm »
It's his way of telling you to lose some weight ;D

;)

You won’t notice any difference, but you will struggle to break them. The 2.3mm neck is much more resistant to fatigue failure.


Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #5 on: 05 June, 2018, 09:57:43 pm »
It's his way of telling you to lose some weight ;D

;)

You won’t notice any difference, but you will struggle to break them. The 2.3mm neck is much more resistant to fatigue failure.
In answer to your question on another thread, I’m anywhere between 85 and 95kg. Luckily, I recently succumbed to a bout of norovirus which has helped  ;D

Samuel D

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #6 on: 05 June, 2018, 10:08:01 pm »
Then the extra weight of 17 grams is just over one hundredth of one per cent of your all-up weight. Not even the pea princess could detect that.

Whether triple-butted spokes are needed is another matter. Perhaps their main benefit is a better fit in the flange hole (do Dura-Ace hubs still have smaller holes than cheaper Shimano hubs these days?). Their price would put me off. Even Sapim Race spokes are annoyingly expensive when you’re buying up to 72 of them, which is why I use Alpina spokes for my own builds … at least when I can get them here in France.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #7 on: 05 June, 2018, 10:21:25 pm »
Then the extra weight of 17 grams is just over one hundredth of one per cent of your all-up weight. Not even the pea princess could detect that.
Marginal gains though innit. Could be the difference between winning or losing an audax.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #8 on: 05 June, 2018, 11:08:54 pm »
Then the extra weight of 17 grams is just over one hundredth of one per cent of your all-up weight. Not even the pea princess could detect that.

Whether triple-butted spokes are needed is another matter. Perhaps their main benefit is a better fit in the flange hole (do Dura-Ace hubs still have smaller holes than cheaper Shimano hubs these days?). Their price would put me off. Even Sapim Race spokes are annoyingly expensive when you’re buying up to 72 of them, which is why I use Alpina spokes for my own builds … at least when I can get them here in France.

The price isn’t that different from what I can remember the last time I bought some spokes, although I’ve built with Alpina also (same price here as Race). I would view them as extra insurance really, though if you were at the top of the range then I’d be saying the same. I think one of the issues for a wheelbuilder is that customers can often exceed their stated weight range. Plus if your an Audax type, you will probably do lots of miles.

Mike

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #9 on: 05 June, 2018, 11:15:44 pm »
Then the extra weight of 17 grams is just over one hundredth of one per cent of your all-up weight. Not even the pea princess could detect that.

Whether triple-butted spokes are needed is another matter. Perhaps their main benefit is a better fit in the flange hole (do Dura-Ace hubs still have smaller holes than cheaper Shimano hubs these days?). Their price would put me off. Even Sapim Race spokes are annoyingly expensive when you’re buying up to 72 of them, which is why I use Alpina spokes for my own builds … at least when I can get them here in France.

I've stopped using Alpina spokes, as I've had very early breakages on a couple of batches. Ten years apart, so I don't think their QC has improved.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #10 on: 05 June, 2018, 11:23:53 pm »
Then the extra weight of 17 grams is just over one hundredth of one per cent of your all-up weight. Not even the pea princess could detect that.

Whether triple-butted spokes are needed is another matter. Perhaps their main benefit is a better fit in the flange hole (do Dura-Ace hubs still have smaller holes than cheaper Shimano hubs these days?). Their price would put me off. Even Sapim Race spokes are annoyingly expensive when you’re buying up to 72 of them, which is why I use Alpina spokes for my own builds … at least when I can get them here in France.

I've stopped using Alpina spokes, as I've had very early breakages on a couple of batches. Ten years apart, so I don't think their QC has improved.

That’s interesting. We had a couple of front spokes break on my wife’s bike long before she had done any significant mileage. I hadn’t built those wheels so (of course!) blames the builder, but I think they were Alpina. Never associated it with the spoke, although I could fathom a real cause.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #11 on: 05 June, 2018, 11:30:40 pm »
I'd tend to blame the wheelbuilder (me) as well, but i'll not take the chance again.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #12 on: 05 June, 2018, 11:49:36 pm »
Not all stainless steel spokes are made from the same material; there are several different grades that are used. However if you buy DT or sapim, they are made from the same wire from the same supplier, AFAICT.

One of the common spoke manufacturing faults that leads to premature breakage is wear or inadequate lubrication in the die that is used to form the J bend.  This commonly results in a bend inside radius that looks terrible (under a microscope) and that feels rough when you run your thumbnail over it. Often there is a fold and it might as well be a crack.

 I have seen this problem several times with off-brand spokes but of the major manufacturers the only one that I have seen with this  fault is Alpina. In a particular wheel the spokes all started breaking on one side and sure enough all the bends were bad on that side, badly made.

Although they are not quite a strong as some others, wheels I have built with fault-free Alpina spokes have been fine.

cheers

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #13 on: 06 June, 2018, 12:54:31 am »
I thought Alpina picked up a shocking reputation about 15 years ago because of a few bad batches, but that this bad run was short-lived, and thus the reputation was no longer deserved.

Certainly I've not had any more problems with Alpina spokes than with Competitions or Races - but that's across a tiny number of spokes and a smaller number of problems, and like Deano, I'd be inclined to blame the wheelbuilder every time I saw him in the mirror. (I haven't fondled any J-bends recently though - I might do that if I remember.)

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #14 on: 06 June, 2018, 08:23:37 am »
BTW if the spokes are not perfect, or the fit of the spokes is bad and/or the wheel/spokes are not stress-relieved adequately, you may experience spoke breakages within 1000 miles (eg in a rear wheel).

If the spokes are badly made but the fit/stress relief are good, you may not experience failures so soon, but (in contrast to a wholly good wheel) you will experience spoke breakages, and they will carry on happening (randomly) for ever, or at least until all the faulty spokes are changed for good ones.

Thus if you break more than one or two spokes in a wheel that should be 'good' (because you have used good quality spokes that fit well and have subjected the wheel to thorough stress relief, e.g. Brandt-style) you have to be suspicious of faulty spokes.

 It is usual for all the spokes in the same box to be made on the same machine at the same time, so if some are faulty  they should all have the same fault. The exception to this is if the J-bend die is badly lubricated and is subject to galling; occasionally an adhered lump of crud on the die  (which has been ruining the bends on the previous few spokes) will detach and the next few spokes after that might be OK, or better at least.

But if you find a faulty J-bend in a single spoke in a wheel, it is probably best if you replace all the spokes of the same length (i.e. that came out of the same box originally) in that wheel.

FWIW I've bought and used many thousands of DT spokes over the years (NB in factory sealed boxes, i.e. not ones that have been cut and rethreaded, which is all you will get in some territories) and they have been very consistent in quality. The only exceptions to this are

1) sometimes a full box will manifest a (functionally harmless) slight ripple appearance (eg in the width of the central part of a butted spoke) presumably  because the swaging has not been perfectly applied and

2) two or three times the box has contained one or two spokes which are unthreaded.

3) the butted lengths are sometimes not perfectly consistent box-to-box

So I'm not complaining, except perhaps at the prices that are usually  charged for them....

Sapim seem to be similarly consistent; I've used fewer of them myself but a local builder uses many thousands a year and he reports to me that there have been few if any problems.

cheers
 

Samuel D

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #15 on: 06 June, 2018, 09:25:29 am »
I don’t think Alpina uses the Swedish Sandvik wire that Sapim and DT Swiss reportedly use, but their spokes are used in factory wheels from the likes of Mavic, Campagnolo, and Zipp, and they end up on motorcycles by BMW and KTM among others. They must run a reasonably tight ship to win those contracts.

Don’t quote me on this, but I think I read that Pillar uses Sandvik wire these days.

Since learning how to build wheels I’ve been less terrified about a spoke breaking, since I know how to fix the wheel to get me home and replacing the spoke later is trivial. A pro wheel-builder would be justified in doing more to reduce the risk of failure and expensive warranty repair.

I haven’t seen dodgy J-bends on the Alpina spokes I’ve used, but I’ve sometimes seen an odd slow-spiral groove down the length of the spoke. Anyone know what that might be? It’s in the wrong orientation to cause trouble but you never know.

One of the main reasons I use Alpina is CycleBasket.com: they have low prices, outstanding service, and – very important, this – consistently available stock in all lengths. Trying to find DT Swiss or Sapim spokes in the lengths you want is often a shopping game, and then you need to order nipples separately, etc. Alpina spokes from Cycle Basket are the easy option.

Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #16 on: 06 June, 2018, 09:39:59 am »
FWIW if in the OP's shoes, I'd specify 'force' spokes on the rear driveside, and 'race' spokes elsewhere, for a fairly lightweight wheelset.

 If the wheelset is well-built (and particularly well stress-relieved) speccing 'force' throughout is probably overkill; the weight increase might be trivial but the cost increase might not be.

cheers

JonB

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Re: Sapim Force spokes
« Reply #17 on: 06 June, 2018, 12:06:51 pm »
One of the main reasons I use Alpina is CycleBasket.com: they have low prices, outstanding service, and – very important, this – consistently available stock in all lengths. Trying to find DT Swiss or Sapim spokes in the lengths you want is often a shopping game, and then you need to order nipples separately, etc. Alpina spokes from Cycle Basket are the easy option.

Yes, completely agree.