Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 November, 2019, 08:41:08 am
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Inspired by this overhearing. (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4003.msg2442041#msg2442041)
Like just about all of us, I have more clothes than I need, and some I haven't worn for a couple of years or more. But none of them bring me joy. Not that they're necessarily bad clothes, joy isn't something I associate with clothes. On the other hand, music does bring me joy but I own very little music.
I therefore conclude that the volume of a type of possessions is not related to the value placed on that category by the owner. More joy does need lead to more possessions.
(The obvious flaw being that music is not a possession. The joy in music is listening to it and making it, not in possessing CDs and so on. Except, of course, where joy in music is actually joy in CDs/vinyl/etc, which brings us back to the start, more or less.)
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I have a hard time throwing stuff away, but it's not really joy, it's that 'but what if I need...' which on a logical level I won't (really, a Palm Pilot, ian?). It applies to clothes, but I fear I'm a functional dresser. My wife throws my holey socks away, I'd keep them, it's only a little hole after all and I don't live in Japan so no one is going to see them. She buys lots of clothes and more shoes. I'm not sure why. We always do the 'is that new?" and 'oh no, I've just not worn it for ages' which is always a big lie. (I don't actually care, beyond the fact she's filled every wardrobe to neutronium density and if I make the mistake of opening one, it all falls on me and makes me squeak.)
I don't think I'm a possessions person really. I did hang onto physical music for a while but a while back, gradually making the transition from CDs (now piled up in the garage) to digital music and, finally, to streaming. I found that a bit hard, but I had to admit in the end that I was buying several albums a month and some were getting listened to once or twice only, and for a third of the price, I could listen to everything.
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Yeah, being reluctant to throw things away is a different topic really, albeit the one that led to this.
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Tools. Nicely made THINGS. Art. All three can induce joy in their possession.
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books, the tactility of realbooks. Not all books, just some.
Like my signed copies of Bonsai Techniques I and II by John Yoshio Naka, you can't get those anymore, and the joy is not in using them as reference works (that is a very different kind of joy), but just leafing through them and thinking "Wow, this is a life devoted to art, whilst I'm piffling away on the edge"
Or my lined up almost complete collection of Alistair MacClean, with scraps of paper sticking out where the gaps are. Not good first editions, but that's not the point
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I'd agree those are different kinds of joy.
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I'm naturally inclined to hoarding data, which would include music and books, though I'm a lot more precious about that which I can't just buy or download another copy of.
Quality tools (everything from allen keys to computer screens, or even cars) certainly bring joy, though it's more in the using than the having.
Of the things I've built myself, I'm more attached to the designs and (where applicable) software, rather than the physical objects, which just represent a quantity of work. I can make them again, and they'll probably be better.
Clothes are important in that by having them you can avoid nakedness and clothes shopping, both of which are deeply unpleasant. Occasionally clothes might qualify as 'quality tools', by being particularly effective outdoor gear, or having plenty of pockets or something, but in general they're uninteresting.
I'll hoard tqt that might come in useful, because it often does. I'm not attached to it.
And looming over it all is the understanding that I could lose it all tomorrow. If I can keep a decent pair of shoes and one of the Important Stuff hard drives, I'd consider that a win.
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Have you considered Buddhism, Kim?
(I'm being simultaneously serious and flippant, just in case you wondered, though I'm sure you know better than to wonder.)
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I like my five mechanical watches (and revel in their years-old technology).
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Snap (ish). I have just the one mechanical watch (the other is a Seiko Kinetic that lives in a draw) and I chose it as a present, and wear it virtually all the time. Added pleasure from it having a ceramic band and an exhibition back.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49048488793_857b9d8d87_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hJfjTT)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2hJfjTT) by Richard Fletcher (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156993878@N08/), on Flickr
I've never held on to books, despite reading a lot (i now only buy what I can't reserve via our local library systems), and have got rid of all my physical music (nothing was ever as pleasurable as LP's IMO).
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Have you considered Buddhism, Kim?
(I'm being simultaneously serious and flippant, just in case you wondered, though I'm sure you know better than to wonder.)
Not as much as I've considered homelessless.
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Have you considered Buddhism, Kim?
(I'm being simultaneously serious and flippant, just in case you wondered, though I'm sure you know better than to wonder.)
Not as much as I've considered homelessless.
Cargo bike.
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I take considerable joy in certain of my possessions. I think the piano is top of the list, probably followed by my bike.
In the past I have taken great joy from precision machinery. When I used to go fishing, I had some very beautiful and expensive fishing reels which were utter jewels. I have one of these:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352832169053
which I haven't use for years. Still in pristine condition. I also used to build my own rods and they gave me considerable pleasure.
Regarding the OP and people taking pleasure from their clothes, this takes me back well over 30 years when my dear wife's Great Aunt May stalked the planet. There was a good deal of hilarity after she said to Jan's dad, as a conversation starter, "Are you enjoying your new trousers, Harold?"
The same Great Aunt May once confused the two words "kagool" and "goolies". This too led to a certain amount of amusement, but perhaps less than one might have expected as Janet's mother was always most Not Amused by anything slightly risqué.
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What a great reel, I have a split cane built rod made by my dad, needs a new tip eye and ideally a new ferrule, but unlike other commercial made rods I can't bring myself to get rid.
Re books, its definitely not all books, whilst they are tactile, certain books could be let go in an instant as just modern imprints that could equally be electrons. Some are much more involved, to me.
I have an early, but not first edition Origin of Species. That's interesting but hard going. I'm not sure though if its more important to me than a book of short stories by Witi Imahiera that I picked up on my only trip to New Zealand. Some books have a place and an association that the proliferation of published vwords does not capture.
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I like a camera that fits in my hand and captures what I think I see. An extension of my odd brain.
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One of the seemingly un-bookish things I like about some books, and I know I'm not alone in this, is the texture, colour and even smell of old paper.
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My violin. Also, to a lesser extent, the other musical instruments. I don't like my viola as much, even though I play it more.
My bike(s) bring joy, too, but it's more fleeting. I'm not totally attached to them, because I know they're likely to get replaced every few years.
Clothes aren't particularly joyous things, though I have sometimes held on to things I never wear for far too long, because I like them and might wear them one day (which inevitably never arrives). My metallic purple Dr Martens made me smile, except when I wore them and they hurt my feet, so they had to go.
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I don't think I care about stuff. Clothes are just there to prevent a judge having stern words with me, bikes and cars get me places, a computer is a practical thing. I end up collecting superannuated crap because I have difficulty ridding myself of it, not because I especially wanted it in the first place.
I think I'm an experience person. I take pleasure from a well-typeset page, spine-tingly music, a good read, a visit to far-flung place. There's no ownership, those are ephemeral, little bubbles on the surface of the tawdry, and part of the pleasure is that they're fleeting moments.
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My violin. Also, to a lesser extent, the other musical instruments.
I know a bloke who recently split up with his partner of many years and had to move house. After a brief period of house surfing he's settled somewhere now and is most pleased to be reunited with his piano. He recently took Grade One, being about 45 years older than the other candidates, so it's nothing to do with talent.
I don't like my viola as much, even though I play it more.
Which just goes to show something or other. The viola always struck me as a sort of inbetween instrument, but that's just my impression.
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Musical instruments made me think... there's a certain joy in any man-made object that isn't aggressively cost-engineered like most modern consumer products.
Which is a vague category encompassing most objects of Art; high-tech equipment that's engineered on some other criteria (eg. anything built to medical or military spec, engineered for servicability, or simply from such small production runs that it makes sense to use expensive parts and construction techniques to save design time); high-end mechanical tools; most surviving objects from before the days of plastic; most decent musical instruments; and (on a good day) things like power tools, motor vehicles and firearms, where it's doing something so inherently dangerous that it has to be sufficiently well-engineered that it won't kill the user.
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My double bass (big brother of the viola) gives me great pleasure (when I play the right notes in the correct order). :-D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/285/31640398282_8e041f302d_w.jpg)
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Musical instruments made me think... there's a certain joy in any man-made object that isn't aggressively cost-engineered like most modern consumer products.
Which is a vague category encompassing most objects of Art; high-tech equipment that's engineered on some other criteria (eg. anything built to medical or military spec, engineered for servicability, or simply from such small production runs that it makes sense to use expensive parts and construction techniques to save design time); high-end mechanical tools; most surviving objects from before the days of plastic; most decent musical instruments; and (on a good day) things like power tools, motor vehicles and firearms, where it's doing something so inherently dangerous that it has to be sufficiently well-engineered that it won't kill the user.
Personally I think the inderviduality thing has a big part to play in an items desirability.
For instance every musical instrument is different, due to the grain of the wood or the patina of the metal, every print book is slightly different due to the way the paper absorbs the ink or the pages crease and I suppose, if that’s what floats your boat, that even clothes could fit into this catagory once they start to wear.
But most (insert most modern consumer items of your choice) are identical and lack that tactile, indervidual, human touch we all crave and thus provide less joy.
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I have very few, if any, posessions that give me joy. A small handful of analogue books that I read repeatedly over the years (having the same books as Kindle editions wouldn't give the same enjoyment), a couple of albums (vinyl and CD's). In both these cases the output of the object is what brings the joy and being able to experience that joy at a time of my choosing means the physical object alo brings that joy.
Otherwise, it is the product of some of my possessions that is joyful- an image from my camera that captures exactly what I wanted to show- viewing something I have not seen before through my telescope eyepiece.
Clothes might make me happy- putting on a comfortable pair of jeans or boots. Not joy though.
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I had a chess career (weak-to-moderate amateur) that lasted from about 1972, when I first earned to play "properly" to around the time that my youngest child left school (she was 33 last Sunday). So over 30 years. I have kept a very large number of the scoresheets on which I wrote the moves of those games. I played quite well in some of those games and it gives me a lot of pleasure that they are still around. I ought to put them on a website somewhere because some of the games are quite good.
That piece of paper represents a happy memory, rather like my fishing reels. Similarly, every so often I delve through the archives of this forum and re-read some of my old ride reports. That gives me a lot of pleasure, but that's because of the memories associated with the thing. With my piano. I have very few memories of playing which give me pleasure: it's the ability to play and enjoy what I do. It's much more spontaneous. Although my piano is a thing of great beauty (1936 Blüthner) both visually and aurally, I can lose myself when I am playing it. There's very little that beats finishing your breakfast and then spending an hour or so playing Bach preludes & fugues.
It's also something I can share. If I work very hard on a piece, I can make a reasonable fist of performing it. In May, my friend Ruth NOTP (she was in my music group at college and we've known each other since we were 18) had her 65th birthday and I recorded "Traumerei" from Schumann's "Kinderszenen" for her. She was very appreciative. I also shared that with my friend Penny (also NOTP) and she told me that she was reduced to floods of tears when she heard it. "My mum used to play that," she said. She told me I played it better than her mum had. So that gave me pleasure as well - being able to share something.
It just wouldn't be the same on a modern piano made in the far east.
But that's indirect joy arising out of possessions. I think it starts to get all existential from here...
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Just the one: my Hilleberg Nammatj 3GT tent.
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I have very few, if any, posessions that give me joy. A small handful of analogue books that I read repeatedly over the years (having the same books as Kindle editions wouldn't give the same enjoyment), a couple of albums (vinyl and CD's). In both these cases the output of the object is what brings the joy and being able to experience that joy at a time of my choosing means the physical object alo brings that joy.
Otherwise, it is the product of some of my possessions that is joyful- an image from my camera that captures exactly what I wanted to show- viewing something I have not seen before through my telescope eyepiece.
Clothes might make me happy- putting on a comfortable pair of jeans or boots. Not joy though.
Fuzzy makes two valuable distinctions: between a possession and its outputs and between joy and happiness.
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I like clothes. I don't buy loads, and wear jeans and t shirt to work most days, but I like what I have. I've got a nice suit that I barely wear but is lovely, and several things my partner had sewn or knitted.
Music I also love, but despite having several *cough* CDs it's more about the hearing.
My camera and bikes give me a lot of pleasure, but I know I'll replace them at some point.
My memory isnt great so photos, letters, trip diaries, maps and random bits and bobs associated with good times are things I really value, and occasionally get great pleasure from finding again and helping me recall.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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I tend to buy stuff I need and keep it until it wears out when I may buy a replacement. I have some stuff I keep even though I never use simply because of the memories attached, for example a tiny plastic joint of meat that is the only remaining part of the toy wildlife ranger set my parents gave me as a gift for getting promoted from the D stream to the A stream in Junior school aged 7.
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Truthfully, I think I could lose all my possessions and not be bothered, they're just things. That might have part due to a peripatetic existence in younger life, I suppose, where everything was either disposable or fitted into a large suitcase. OK, l like my collection of fluffy mustelids who co-habit the remote command centre, but that's about it.
Data, that most ephemeral possession, gives me joy of course. The photos, the songs, the terrible mostly written novels, all that jazz (but not actual jazz, remember kids – jazz is wrong). I am, I fear, a creature of the modern age.
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In a way, I actually get joy from shedding stuff, especially sometimes things which I once ascribed value to. A curious lightness of being. that's a one-off hit, though, for obvious reasons. Moving on is a joy in itself, whether in life or on a bike.
It is also true that you don't have to own something for it to give you joy.
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When we moved here in 1989 all my tools except the Workmate went into a 150cm x 30 x 30 box. Nowadays I have trouble fitting new stuff into a 36m² workshop, and the aforesaid box serves as hop-up behind one of my benches.
I confess that I take enormous pleasure from standing up there and looking at everything.
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Being a tool junkie, I am joyful in using some of them, particularly my late dad's planes, and even his motley collection of small metric spanners. They were his, he used them, and now so can I.
But real joyfulness comes from my two saxophones. The alto I bought new, so every scuff, every tweak and every note it's uttered has been down to me. It gives me joy when I get my fingers and mouth around something new and tricky (for me) and even more when I make its sound like a saxophone.
And then there's my tenor sax. I bought it secondhand, and I'm only the 2nd owner. But it's immaculate and of good quality. I bought it from the first owner, and saw it in his home when I went to look at it. I know its provenance, and now I'm getting better at the tenor it sounds gorgeous (to me).
Both saxes are works of art, in their mechanisms, their engineering, their attention to detail, and the sound they make. Things of beauty are joys forever, I'm told.
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I have a few pairs of decent shoes* that I wear in total comfort, able to move my
toes around and not having any part of my feet being pinched by the leather uppers.
*Find a pair like that, then buy another and another. Your feet will thank you for it
over the years. :thumbsup:
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Clothes, shoes, ties,cufflinks etc. i could witter on for hours about them and if funds permitted I would prob live on Savile Row or be a regular in the Milanese tailors. Luckily I dont have the money to indulge and sadly I now dont go anywhere to display this finery. A film like Kingsman and the lovely apparel in the film always delights me. watches and pens I enjoy. But really its just stuff and it all gets forgotten about when my daughter or wife are ill or just need help. I would like a job where I could use the stuff mentioned. I have some lovely bikes but not enough time to ride them.
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Right on cue, I went past....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rLcwaNU6QzU/XdGWaC0trlI/AAAAAAADJYQ/VfT1tVNCUM8N-0UzoCIDvFfvUFnzkxbqACKgBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20191114_150236.jpg)
You may need to embiggen to read the text over the door
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:thumbsup:
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love the German konditor but not sure about the Auschwitz reference (at least they didn't put it in German). Not cheap so wouldnt be stopping off there when on the bike
https://konditor.co.uk/shop-products/shop-by-products/desserts.html
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love the German konditor but not sure about the Auschwitz reference (at least they didn't put it in German). Not cheap so wouldnt be stopping off there when on the bike
https://konditor.co.uk/shop-products/shop-by-products/desserts.html
Auschwitz and other concentration camps had "Arbeit macht frei" (work sets you free) above their gates.
I'd say that "Joy through cake" sounds like a subversion of "Strength through Joy", which was the tourism and leisure wing of the Nazi-era German Labour Front.
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I reckon #FreudedurchKuchen actually sounds less ominous in the German; echoes of Schiller rather than anything else.
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I have a draw full of harmonicas that I don't play as often as I used to, but it's always a joy to open this draw of delights and to play a little, remembering Steinbecks' thoughts on this humble instrument from "The Grapes of Wrath".
“A harmonica is easy to carry. Take it out of your hip pocket. Knock it against your palm to shake out the dirt and pocket fuzz and bits of tobacco. Now it’s ready. You can do anything with a harmonica: thin reedy single tone or chords, or melody with rhythm chords. You can mold the music with curved hands, making it wail and cry like bagpipes, making it full and round like an organ, making it as sharp and bitter as the reed pipes of the hills. And you play and put it back into your pocket. It’s always with you.”
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There's a lot to be said for music that's always with you.
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Personally, "possessions" do not bring me joy. Accomplishment and self improvement do.
Comfort shopping doesn't do it for me.
One day I'll learn.
Experiences do.
Is that the same?
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Bikes? N+1.
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About that >< much.
I confess to having lost my Mojo :(
Help!
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I built a robot and instructed it to bring me joy.
That proved to be a mistake.
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I take that Joy was not best pleased at being abducted by a robot, then? ;)
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She was quite glad she was unconfined.
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;D
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Possessions I revel in, in order of importance,
Olive, 22,000km ish now, owned for about 3 years, love every ride.
Wallace, my 21 yo Land Rover 110,, owned it for 14 years. nearly 200k, Loves it , I does.
Pamplemousse, our 43 year old VW camper, owned 18 years. been to Italy and back in it, we have.
Items of clothing less so. I tend to revel in things that have worked forever , and continue to work, and things that I either get for free, or absolute bargain. I get no pleasure in going out and buying something nice for myself, much to swmbo's annoyance. eg, I blagged a Gore windstopper top, either on here, or ctc forum?, going free, for the cost of postage. What a brilliant bit of kit, I've worn it every day since i got it. I loves it! Wouldn't give you tuppence for Rapha stuff, (unless it was free ;D)
In fact, I been thinking a lot recently, and trying to work out, WHAT , if anything i actually want, that I haven't already got. The answer is really only one thing that I can think of,and that's not a definite, but it would be N + 1, in the form of a Veleotechnik Street Machine GTE !!