Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: TimC on December 13, 2012, 12:42:24 pm

Title: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: TimC on December 13, 2012, 12:42:24 pm
It seems Bradley wants to defend his TdF title, despite all the 'Brad for the Giro, Froomey for the Tour' talk...

Beeb story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20709842).
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on December 13, 2012, 01:18:03 pm
It seems Bradley wants to defend his TdF title, despite all the 'Brad for the Giro, Froomey for the Tour' talk...

Beeb story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20709842).

Sky are bound to be in a better position if the opposition don't know who to cover, and we haven't seen the best of Thomas yet.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: ran doner on December 13, 2012, 07:40:27 pm
Thomas could probably do with getting some miles in his legs first and has already
said that he is targeting the spring classics. The Sky team for TDU reflects the same
with Hayman, Eisel, EBH and Thomas lining up.

Add in the new signings of Kiryienka and Rasch, with the Columbians for the Ardennes plus
maybe Boswell and Dombrowski and the Sky classics squad looks more than
interesting this year.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on December 13, 2012, 07:49:55 pm
I hadn't appreciated before that Thomas had done the fastest 4,000m pursuit time under current rules.
Title: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 13, 2012, 09:30:19 pm
If Brad dared to suggest publicly that he wasn't going to attempt to defend the TdF, he would be accused of disrespect. If someone asks him the question, of course that's what he's going to say. I'm taking his comments with a pinch of salt.

I'm rather hoping we get a battle royale à la 1986, with Brad in the Hinault role constantly attacking Bertie in order to "help" Froome. The question is whether Froome is really up to performing the Lemond role. And how Bertie will react to being cast in the Fignon role.

I think I've made my feelings about Geraint Thomas quite plain before now. A rider with massive potential. He could be a plan B if it goes wrong for Froome but I'm assuming Froome will be the main man for Sky in the TdF this year.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Nuncio on December 13, 2012, 09:50:03 pm
Thomas could probably do with getting some miles in his legs first and has already
said that he is targeting the spring classics. The Sky team for TDU reflects the same
with Hayman, Eisel, EBH and Thomas lining up.

Add in the new signings of Kiryienka and Rasch, with the Columbians for the Ardennes plus
maybe Boswell and Dombrowski and the Sky classics squad looks more than
interesting this year.

John Tiernan Locke's old boss at Endura, Brian Smith, reckons he has potential for the Ardennes classics.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 13, 2012, 10:15:35 pm
Will be very interesting to see how JTL handles the step up in class. He has the ability but his lack of experience at this level might be a factor, no?

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: ran doner on December 14, 2012, 10:36:25 am
Must admit i had forgotten about JTL  :facepalm:

As Citoyen says has he got the class, and the engine at the START of the season to make the impact
at the classics as he did in the worlds ?

Anyone know if they've moved the finish of the Milan-San Remo next year to the bottom of the Poggio ??
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: andyoxon on December 14, 2012, 05:47:13 pm
Was Wiggo given an option to defend his title? 
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: hubner on December 14, 2012, 06:02:38 pm
Not Hinault and Lemond again (86 Tour).

They should be in different teams.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 14, 2012, 06:17:18 pm
Was Wiggo given an option to defend his title?

No, but only in the same way that he was arguably handed the title this year.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: andyoxon on December 15, 2012, 10:53:07 am
Arguably Chris Frome winning Le Tour in 2013 (with Wiggo in the team) would be more of a 'manufactured' result, given BW's physiological advantage and dominance in the TT... perhaps even given the more mountainous content *

*warning, I'm no TdF expert ;-)
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 15, 2012, 11:09:41 am
Don't think this would be the case. 2012 course suited Wiggins, lots of TT and not too much in the way of brutal climbing that would unseat him.

2013 course suits an explosive climber like Contadope and maybe Froome.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 16, 2012, 09:47:23 pm
Arguably a Froome win would do more for cycling in Britain than a second Wiggo win. The ideal of course would be Froome in yellow, Wigg second, and Cav in green! :o
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: andyoxon on December 17, 2012, 12:16:44 pm
Is it too much to think that BW could train specifically for a higher mountain content, or would it be too much of a gamble for SKY?  Was Miguel Indurain a much better climber than Wiggo?  AFAIA Wiggo & Indurain have/had similar VO2 max and resting pulse rates.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 17, 2012, 12:51:40 pm
Indurain always rode to limit his losses in the mountains, he could never keep up with the likes of Pantani on the really steep slopes.

Wiggo did lots of mountain training this year but he'll never have the physique to be an explosive attacking climber of the likes of Contador or an on-form Andy Schleck. On the other hand, like Cadel Evans, he can allow explosive attacks to get away but gradually reel them back in at his own pace...

He lost 37 seconds to Contador on the Ventoux in 2009 and finished >6mins behind him overall. Has he improved enough as a climber since then to be able to limit his losses enough on the big mountains?

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Doosh on December 17, 2012, 01:03:38 pm
He lost 37 seconds to Contador on the Ventoux in 2009 and finished >6mins behind him overall. Has he improved enough as a climber since then to be able to limit his losses enough on the big mountains?

d.

Is that time difference assuming Contador was clean?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 17, 2012, 01:07:28 pm
Are you assuming Bradley is?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 17, 2012, 01:13:43 pm
One of them is a convicted drugs cheat.

The other one isn't.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 17, 2012, 01:17:22 pm
How about we just wait a decade or so for the real answers?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on December 17, 2012, 01:23:56 pm
Indurain was the product of a certain stage in the development of cycle racing science. All the elements came together to allow him to dominate. The optimum cyclists were big and strong, but slimmed down to allow them to climb. Riis and Ullrich were in the same mould. Pantani was a blip, an anomoly. Armstrong was a mobile pharmacological test bed, whose importance to the sport allowed him to concentrate on very specific training regimes.
Brad, and many other Sky riders, are competition-proven riders with big engines, the Olympic medals on the track prove that. They are the raw materials for the science to turn into winners. The most intriguing thing for me is the psychology. Brad is just very likeable, especially for the pro peloton. But he's also a bit vulnerable, which makes him malleable, and a bit prone to collapse. Managing those factors so that he can function as a patron is the interesting bit. Froome is more lieutenant material, Geraint could fill the role of patron.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Doosh on December 17, 2012, 02:19:37 pm
Are you assuming Bradley is?

He struggles too much on the big climbs to be doping. Whilst he's not a specialist climber he's not a million miles off, so why would he not be producing monster times up the big stuff if he was doping?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 17, 2012, 02:42:56 pm
Is that time difference assuming Contador was clean?

I've just looked up a report of that day's stage to refresh my memory. It was actually 25 seconds. That's just a statement of fact. Draw your own conclusions.

Of course, it wasn't really a battle between Wiggins and Contador that day anyway, so probably not reliable as a pointer of what might happen in next year's TdF, regardless of who is or isn't riding clean.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2009/stage-20/results

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: TimC on December 17, 2012, 03:47:13 pm
How about we just wait a decade or so for the real answers?

Because those of us who believe in a clean Bradley would like to enjoy his performances now, as they happen. Because a YouTube video in 10 years time, with us saying, 'Oh, maybe he was clean after all', is not the same thing. Because to do otherwise would be to give up on the sport - which I assume you have already done, so why bother commenting?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 17, 2012, 04:47:45 pm
How about we just wait a decade or so for the real answers?

We know Contador has cheated. We don't know Bradley has.

We don't need to wait 10 years to know this, we can know it now.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 17, 2012, 05:15:38 pm
So, did Wiggo actually win the Tour in 2009 then?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Doosh on December 17, 2012, 09:46:11 pm
Either way, looks like he has a backup career sorted if it all doesn't plan out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NkBB-nu28E
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 17, 2012, 10:07:08 pm
So, did Wiggo actually win the Tour in 2009 then?

We'll find out in a few years' time, same as for the last decade or more of TdFs.

We know Contador has cheated. We don't know Bradley has.

We don't know yet. That is what the waiting is for.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 17, 2012, 10:17:39 pm
If he hasn't then you'll always 'not know yet'.



Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: TimC on December 18, 2012, 08:32:44 am
Either way, looks like he has a backup career sorted if it all doesn't plan out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NkBB-nu28E

Excellent!
Title: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 18, 2012, 09:16:12 am
More coals on the fire...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/17/bradley-wiggins-chris-froome-sky-tour
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on December 18, 2012, 12:02:14 pm
Either way, looks like he has a backup career sorted if it all doesn't plan out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NkBB-nu28E

Excellent!

That's a very revealing bit of footage. Brad is completely at ease in a situation where fans are filming themselves with him in the background. He's been getting that sort of attention while shopping at Tesco in Chorley, and has come to terms with it.
He's also being himself, which is has been a key component in standing up to the stress of competition. It hasn't driven him in on himself. It will be interesting to see how Froome conducts himself if he gets that level of attention, he seems more like one of nature's bass players.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 18, 2012, 12:35:55 pm
he seems more like one of nature's bass players.

Metaphor of the day!
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Doosh on December 18, 2012, 12:42:38 pm
More coals on the fire...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/17/bradley-wiggins-chris-froome-sky-tour

I'm not a massive pro cycling aficionado so forgive any wrong assumptions, but I thought trying to win the Giro and TDF in the same year was rather a large ask?

Even if he's in good form and wins the Giro would it not be a massive ask for him to be recovered enough to mount a serious challenge on the Tour?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on December 18, 2012, 12:52:29 pm
he seems more like one of nature's bass players.

Metaphor of the day!

(http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/quu_2004/fadb9287.jpg)

Chris Froome.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02277/froome_2277270b.jpg)

Mark King.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 18, 2012, 12:59:50 pm
Don't know. It's a shame Ryder Hesjedal crashed out of the Tour last year because he looked like he was still in good form after the Giro, so could have been a serious contender. Which just goes to show that even if it's physically possible, you need luck on your side as well.

This discussion is premature anyway - Brad hasn't won the Giro yet.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 18, 2012, 02:07:38 pm
Another thing that hasn't happened yet is Contador doping next year!
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: rafletcher on December 18, 2012, 02:23:11 pm
Well it's a possibility alright. Stephen Roche did it in 1987, and the World Championship too.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Doosh on December 18, 2012, 02:29:49 pm


This discussion is premature anyway - Brad hasn't won the Giro yet.

d.

Well of course, but I think it's a given that if he's in it then he will be trying to win it, same point still applies if he'll have recovered enough to seriously tackle the Tour, Giro win or not.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 18, 2012, 02:30:09 pm
You are missing others who did the Giro/Tour more than once, Merckx and Indurain.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: andyoxon on December 18, 2012, 02:33:06 pm
Not seen this page before...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Crown_of_Cycling

Miguel Indurain did the Tour - Giro double in consecutive years 92/93...
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Doosh on December 18, 2012, 02:34:18 pm
You are missing others who did the Giro/Tour more than once, Merckx and Indurain.

Pantani also?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Veloman on December 18, 2012, 02:35:28 pm
Surely we should ignore history as the era being cited is known to be an era were performance enhancing additives were taken.

Also, there appears to be a lot more competition, technical advancements and science of sport, all of which have a major influence on how the race is raced.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 18, 2012, 02:48:31 pm
The past 20 years have demonstrated widespread, highly effective doping. Do you think that all stopped in 2006?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: andyoxon on December 18, 2012, 02:49:52 pm
I predict Bradley to follow Miguel, and do the double...  :)
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 18, 2012, 02:50:23 pm
You are missing others who did the Giro/Tour more than once, Merckx and Indurain.

The Merckx example again shows the need for luck - he did it twice, of course, and both times was helped by some of his main rivals being ill, suffering mechanicals at key moments or crashing out.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: sg37409 on December 18, 2012, 02:52:39 pm
I dont think anyone thinks it all stopped in 2006. I think most are sure (myself included) that Wiggins is clean. 

The past 20 years have demonstrated widespread, highly effective doping. Do you think that all stopped in 2006?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Revolution9 on December 18, 2012, 03:12:17 pm
I dont think anyone thinks it all stopped in 2006. I think most are sure (myself included) that Wiggins is clean. 

+1
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 18, 2012, 06:55:15 pm
I dont think anyone thinks it all stopped in 2006. I think most are sure (myself included) that Wiggins is clean. 

The past 20 years have demonstrated widespread, highly effective doping. Do you think that all stopped in 2006?

I'm not sure.  You can never be sure.

If you want to carry on enjoying the sport you have to accept things at face value until there is specific reason to doubt it. With Wiggins there isn't even a whisper, whereas Armstrong's USPS antics were stinky from the word go. Sky at 2012 TdF looked like a low speed version of USPS, but that resemblance isn't enough to start pointing fingers.

At least we know Contador has been busted for doping. 
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 18, 2012, 08:02:15 pm
'Isn't even a whisper' is overstating the situation. You have a DS who was on a doping team, a team doctor from Rabobank, several teammates who had previously doped, a team that was easily strong enough to control the race from end to end (despite being comprehensively blown away in previous years) and a rider who was superstrong throughout the season at an age when riders would usually start thinking of retiring due to waning powers.

Doesn't any of that give you even the slightest concern? Obviously not, so enjoy watching the racing. I'll hold off for a few years, giving some time for rumours and any corroborating evidence to surface.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 18, 2012, 09:02:29 pm
Garmin is full of  previous dopers, and managed by a self-confessed doper. That means nothing when it comes to judging whether Hejedal doped to win the Giro.

You've been sucked into the tin-foil hat hysteria that is the Cyclingnews forum.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 18, 2012, 10:00:27 pm
Quite possibly I have, but that forum has repeatedly managed to gather various fragments of doping evidence that have subsequently underpinned doping convictions. There are some folk on there with real knowledge and connections.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 18, 2012, 10:28:05 pm
Such as? For the life of me, I can't think of one example where Internet generated rumour has been cited in any doping case. Any of the stuff that had been mentioned there didn't come from there, it was already in the public domain. I heard about 'motoman', for example, maybe 8 or 9 years ago. If I could know about this then anyone could. Those guys on that forum are the wankers Wiggins was talking about, and they are wankers. What is interesting is that the only people on there with real-life knowledge and expertise (as opposed to Internet experts) aren't joining in the mass-hysterics over Sky.

All that stuff you mentioned about Sky does not add up to equal Wiggins being a doper. Like I said, Garmin is stuffed to the brim with doping history. In pro cycling, experience (and the quality that brings)= contact with doping, in one form or another. That accounts for Yates, Geert Leinders, and a fair few on the team roster.

Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 18, 2012, 10:59:16 pm
Maybe you are right but I'll wait a few years to make sure.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Biff on December 18, 2012, 11:11:17 pm
Quite possibly I have, but that forum has repeatedly managed to gather various fragments of doping evidence that have subsequently underpinned doping convictions. There are some folk on there with real knowledge and connections.

There are also a great many who claim that they 'have sources with inside knowledge' which turn out to be a mate who once spoke to a pro at a race. Plenty come out with a vast array of facts and figures which 'prove' that rider/team X must be doping because 'its obvious'. When challenged they usually retort with something along the lines of 'well if you don't understand I'm not explaining it' or 'you must be so naive'. God help any Brit who believes Sky to be clean, they will be dismissed as believing that no Brits ever dope.
There are certainly some people on there with expert knowledge, usually the ones who give facts and figures with cogent arguments (Jonathan Vaughters for one, whatever his past he understands the science) but the vast majority just regurgitate Google and claim 'its obvious'. 'Race Radio' appears to have credibility wrt sources, but I take 95% of the posts on there as hot-aired ego feeding. Its entertaining though. FWIW I do believe that Sky are clean. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. Big deal, I shan't lose sleep.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: David Martin on December 18, 2012, 11:18:52 pm
The cyclingnews forum is populated by some very eloquent and outspoken posters who spin a very convincing line for those who are unused to the construction and evaluation of scientific hypothesis and proof. There are some on there who have real expertise in the field  and who are shouted down by the cheerleaders. It is almost funny to watch the delusion taking hold.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 19, 2012, 06:15:08 am
It is delusion and mass hysteria. The signal to noise ratio is about 1:1000. Very occasionally somebody has something interesting and informative to say but the rest is the constant shrill repetition of received wisdom and self-generated 'truths' that become a mantra, and to the jerks that post on there are undeniable proof.

You've also got the usual forum pecking order stuff going on with that utter penis who calls himself 'the hog' who's so at one with himself that he doesn't need evidence, because he just knows. You've got the minions squealing his tune, and eagerly piping up with 'so did Lance' examples ,although they didn't spot that Wiggins had started wearing black socks...just like Lance...incontrovertible proof in my eyes, and possibly even a secret signal from Wiggins to let us know.

Very occasionally, some of them let slip the real motivation behind their Sky phobia, with hatred of Wiggins hairstyle, or tastes in music and well, just hatred. No coincidence that many of them are Australians, bitter at having their predominance usurped by the weedy and sportingly useless English.

Wiggins was spot on about them.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: TimC on December 19, 2012, 08:07:47 am
'Isn't even a whisper' is overstating the situation. You have a DS who was on a doping team, a team doctor from Rabobank, several teammates who had previously doped, a team that was easily strong enough to control the race from end to end (despite being comprehensively blown away in previous years) and a rider who was superstrong throughout the season at an age when riders would usually start thinking of retiring due to waning powers.

Doesn't any of that give you even the slightest concern? Obviously not, so enjoy watching the racing. I'll hold off for a few years, giving some time for rumours and any corroborating evidence to surface.

I will. And if it subsequently turns out that some of the participants were cheating, I will still have enjoyed the racing - as I did in the days of Armstrong, Ulrich and Pantani. You can't take that away from me. You, on the other hand, will no doubt celebrating your self-righteousness having enjoyed none of the racing. Remind me; why do you watch it?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 19, 2012, 08:24:34 am
Forgot to say, the biggest giggle about 'The Clinic' is that they actually believe that they are at the forefront in the fight against doping.

It doesn't occur to them that the only reason that they are provided with their own sub-forum is to keep all the crap in one place, like a toilet bowl.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 19, 2012, 08:30:53 am
TimO, I occasionally still watch because I am an engineer and I like to know how things work. I'm having real problems in working out how a rider with generally poor stage racing and climbing results wins every stage race from the beginning of the year. Peaking multiple times a year or maintaining peak performance for months at a time is not normal.

DM, weren't you the fellow who correctly identified on the previous place that Landis' positive result was a stitch-up? His performance was still a joke and pretty obviously so. The truth eventually came out.

Flatus, yes the signal to noise on The Clinic is even worse than here but there is some truth buried in there. How do you explain Mick Rogers? He was going to Freiberg and his good performances came when he was at T-Mobile and now again at Sky. He left Sky very late this year, too late to transfer his points to the new team. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on December 19, 2012, 09:06:51 am
Sorry, but how can Rogers dodgy past be cited as evidence of Wiggins doping? The only way it could be is if you are implying there is a team wide system of doping. That Rogers has jumped before being pushed runs contrary to that.

As for Wiggins, you've said he won 'every stage race'.  He didn't. By all means subject the guy to some scrutiny, but if you are going to question his integrity at least bother to find out some facts first. Oh, and I mean actual facts, not Clinic 'facts'.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on December 19, 2012, 10:54:57 am
I'm having real problems in working out how a rider with generally poor stage racing and climbing results wins every stage race from the beginning of the year. Peaking multiple times a year or maintaining peak performance for months at a time is not normal.

You're being disingenuous. He didn't really switch his focus to road racing until 2009, riding mostly as a domestique or concentrating on the track until then, so you can't really consider his performances in those years as being meaningful indicators.

In 2009, when he shed 6kg of trackie muscle and really turned his attention fully to road racing for the first time, he finished 7th, 5th and 10th in three of the biggest mountain stages of the Tour de France, and came fourth third overall. He had a stinker in 2010 but there are plenty of well-documented reasons to explain that. In 2011, he won the Dauphiné (making mincemeat of Evans in the process) and looked like a strong contender for the Tour until his crash.

An evaluation of his wins in 2012 also needs to take into account the absence of Contador and the relative performance of his other main rivals - Evans, Basso and Schleck were all major disappointments throughout the year. Hesjedal might have made life tougher for him in the Tour if he hadn't crashed out. The only real competition he had was Nibali, who suffered from having poor team support. There was no Joaquim Rodriguez either. He might have had more competition from BMC if they'd decided to back Tejay instead of Evans.

Not to mention the fact that he won Paris-Nice and the Tour de Romandie without being anything near his peak.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: bobb on December 19, 2012, 11:06:00 am
...wait a few years....

How are the w, a, i, t, f, e, y, r and s keys on your keyboard? I'm amazed they still work the amount of use they get...
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: David Martin on December 19, 2012, 12:09:36 pm
DM, weren't you the fellow who correctly identified on the previous place that Landis' positive result was a stitch-up? His performance was still a joke and pretty obviously so. The truth eventually came out.

Yes. I didn't say he didn't do it but I did say that the data did not support the conclusions and that the due process had not been followed. It was of considerable interest to me as I analyse mass spectrometry data for fun and profit.

We could take apart Wiggins performance, the way that team sky rode and put this in context if you wish (hint, calculating VAM over a climb where two reknowned climbers are attacking each other in traditional style will not give results that are consistent with 'tempo' riding of a well drilled team) . None of it hits the incredulity of the postal era - the numbers don't add up. The data analysis abilities of most of the posters in the clinic are best described as 'clutching at straws' or 'drunks and lampstands'.

There are two other people on there with a proper science background, both physiologists and they are most certainly not in the shrill pigsty.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Veloman on December 19, 2012, 02:31:21 pm
...wait a few years....

How are the w, a, i, t, f, e, y, r and s keys on your keyboard? I'm amazed they still work the amount of use they get...

Totally agree!
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: sg37409 on January 02, 2013, 01:08:30 pm
This is interesting.
Kimmage unconvinced by Sky and Wiggins (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-unconvinced-by-sky-and-wiggins)
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 02, 2013, 01:20:53 pm
This is interesting.
Kimmage unconvinced by Sky and Wiggins (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-unconvinced-by-sky-and-wiggins)

It's been interesting since he said it in July.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2177405/Bradley-Wiggins-battle-cyclings-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: ran doner on January 02, 2013, 01:21:43 pm
As is this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/23/tour-de-france-winner-list-garin-wiggins).

It appears Wiggins was neither old nor quick when compared
with the other winners on what was considered the perfect course for him.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Hot Flatus on January 02, 2013, 06:27:05 pm
This is interesting.
Kimmage unconvinced by Sky and Wiggins (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-unconvinced-by-sky-and-wiggins)

Well, there is another angle to this isn't there...

It's his job.

Or rather it was his job. He's currently without work and in a bit of a panic as to what to do. I suppose he needs to get himself a bit of exposure and back in the headlines given that the Armstrong cash-cow has dried up.

He thought he was going to be the embedded reporter with Sky during the TdF this year, but Wiggins said no.  Who can blame him...he had enough on his plate.

I think Kimmage might just be a tad annoyed with Sky, and in particular Wiggins, after they have pulled the rug out from under his feet.

Sky do have a few questions to answer convincingly, mind you, not least the Leinders stuff. Hard to believe they didn't know who he was before they appointed him.  Kimmage has the easy position though.....he can never be proved wrong because there will always be people like LWaB who say "just wait another ten years"

We'll see. If the parallel's with Armstrong are apt then we can start to expect the first credible whispers in the coming year.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Nuncio on January 02, 2013, 10:30:57 pm


He thought he was going to be the embedded reporter with Sky during the TdF this year, but Wiggins said no.  Who can blame him...he had enough on his plate.

I think Kimmage might just be a tad annoyed with Sky, and in particular Wiggins, after they have pulled the rug out from under his feet.


Don't know if it makes any difference but it was 2010 when Kimmage was supposed to be embedded with Sky and BW pulled the plug. There was no question of his tagging along with Sky in 2012.  More's the pity. 

What's happened with his counter-suit against UCI?  Legal cogs still grinding slowly into place?
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: LEE on January 02, 2013, 10:49:29 pm
Geert Leinders will haunt Dave Brailsford for ever now, and, by association, Wiggo.

A truly bad error of judgement to employ him, guilty of involvement in doping or not.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: pcolbeck on January 03, 2013, 09:28:20 am
I've just finished Wiggo's latest book. He talks about Kimage, they don't really get on that well. Brad thinks that every interview with Kimage is always being twisted around by Kimage to the subject of doping and it it just gets boring and irritating for the interviewee.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: pcolbeck on January 03, 2013, 09:40:53 am
Kimage's main issue seems to be that Sky riders didn't have a bad day.  That was the whole point of their plan for the TdF. There bike computers told them at what vmax they were riding at and they stuck to a target value worked out previously specifically so they didn't have a bad following day. That's way they were criticized for lack of panache, it was all very cold and calculated. Its also why Wiggo was cross with Froome when he attacked on stage 11, doing so was going well into the red and would jeopardize the next day.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Veloman on January 03, 2013, 11:31:29 am
Why stop at Wiggo, let's condem the whole of the Sir Dave's men and women, afetr all, they are so dominant!

I prefer to believe, and afetr reading Wiggo's latest book I can understand how they have revolutionised the approach to cycling without the use of performance enhancing substances etc.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 03, 2013, 11:49:29 am
The aesthetics of Wiggo are interesting, he's an interesting man, riding in a dull and systematic way. We don't have pictures of Brad buckling swash on some big climb, we have footage of him swearing on stage, standing on a podium or playing guitar.
The actual work of cycling is reduced to a statistical exercise, which can be quite pleasing to techno-freaks.
Brad is actually quite good at carrying on the tradition of Tommy Simpson, he's a good mimic, and he's become a modern version of 'The Gentleman'.
If you look at the history of time-trialling in the UK, the sole anecdote to emerge from it is Beryl Burton giving Mike McNamara a licorice allsort. So Brad's off-bike exploits are good for cycling, because it's difficult to generate much excitement from what he does on the bike.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: pcolbeck on January 03, 2013, 11:55:15 am
Sky's plan was genius and worked amazingly well but bodes ill for the sport. If all the teams adopt the Sky method racing will get very dull indeed. It will be like watching two arctics overtaking on a motorway with one team putting out 1/4 of a Watt more power than the other and opening out 20 yards over 30 miles.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 03, 2013, 12:02:06 pm
Sky's plan was genius and worked amazingly well but bodes ill for the sport. If all the teams adopt the Sky method racing will get very dull indeed. It will be like watching two arctics overtaking on a motorway with one team putting out 1/4 of a Watt more power than the other and opening out 20 yards over 30 miles.

That's why Cav had to go to another team. Sprints provide the sort of eye-candy that TV demands. GC is more suited to radio and print.
Having said that, it's always inspiring to see an echelon get away in a crosswind.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Veloman on January 03, 2013, 12:05:33 pm

The actual work of cycling is reduced to a statistical exercise, which can be quite pleasing to techno-freaks.
Sky's plan was genius and worked amazingly well but bodes ill for the sport. If all the teams adopt the Sky method racing will get very dull indeed. It will be like watching two arctics overtaking on a motorway with one team putting out 1/4 of a Watt more power than the other and opening out 20 yards over 30 miles.
Some say F1 has been reduced to this, but then it's up to the organisers to make changes to generate interest.  We can't stop the progress and science of sport.  If we want it interesting we can put time bonuses at certain points etc so the overall is contested throughout the race.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Exit Stage Left on January 03, 2013, 12:16:56 pm
Brad is close to retirement, so his actions should be aimed at securing a permanent seat on Question of Sport. He's always continued to ride amateur events, so I see him as a Freddy Flintoff or Ian Botham sort of figure in retirement.
Title: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on January 03, 2013, 12:32:52 pm
Brad is close to retirement

I don't know - I can see him going on and still winning stuff well into his late 30s, Poulidor style.

d.
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: pcolbeck on January 03, 2013, 12:40:10 pm
He says himself he has only a couple of years road racing left in him and doesn't know whether he has the dedication to take on the TdF again (there are a few other races he wants to bag).
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: pcolbeck on January 03, 2013, 12:42:44 pm
Some say F1 has been reduced to this, but then it's up to the organisers to make changes to generate interest.  We can't stop the progress and science of sport.  If we want it interesting we can put time bonuses at certain points etc so the overall is contested throughout the race.

Well you could ban crank power monitoring and specify that the only computers allowed on the bike were very basic distance/time ones. That would make the riders have to go on feel.
Title: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on January 03, 2013, 12:54:45 pm
If all the teams adopt the Sky method racing will get very dull indeed. It will be like watching two arctics overtaking on a motorway with one team putting out 1/4 of a Watt more power than the other and opening out 20 yards over 30 miles.

Hmm, surely the dynamics of team cycling mean you wouldn't just get two trains riding alongside each other like that? (In the closing miles of a sprint stage, yes, but not so much on a mountain stage, surely?)

d.
Title: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: citoyen on January 03, 2013, 12:58:53 pm
He says himself he has only a couple of years road racing left in him and doesn't know whether he has the dedication to take on the TdF again (there are a few other races he wants to bag).

He has put out lots of contradictory messages at various times. The truth remains to be seen.

d.

Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: RJ on January 22, 2013, 12:57:05 pm
Grauniada - Bradley Wiggins says Chris Froome will lead Team Sky in Tour de France (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/22/wiggins-froome-sky-tour-de-france)

Quote
• 'It looks as if Chris will be the leader this year,' says Wiggins
• Wiggins shaves off his sideburns in bid for more anonymity

plus:
Quote
The 2012 Tour de France winner Bradley Wiggins has changed tack again over whether he will set out to repeat his victory of 2012 in this year's race, stating in an interview with l'Equipe that he would be working for his Sky team-mate Chris Froome in the race with the Giro d'Italia his main focus for the year.

Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: Karla on January 22, 2013, 02:04:49 pm
Grauniada - Bradley Wiggins says Chris Froome will lead Team Sky in Tour de France (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/22/wiggins-froome-sky-tour-de-france)

Quote
• 'It looks as if Chris will be the leader this year,' says Wiggins
• Wiggins shaves off his sideburns in bid for more anonymity

It'll be good to see him in Liege Bastone Liege  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
Post by: cuddy duck on January 22, 2013, 11:39:40 pm
As is this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/23/tour-de-france-winner-list-garin-wiggins).

It appears Wiggins was neither old nor quick when compared
with the other winners on what was considered the perfect course for him.

I followed this link and came to the mildly disquieting conclusion that nor was he young or slow.