Author Topic: an apology  (Read 20558 times)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #125 on: 27 June, 2013, 12:22:51 pm »
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/6194031/The-Lost-Symbol-and-The-Da-Vinci-Code-author-Dan-Browns-20-worst-sentences.html

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Deception Point, chapter 8: Overhanging her precarious body was a jaundiced face whose skin resembled a sheet of parchment paper punctured by two emotionless eyes.

You can measure the pitch of the voice electronically and prove quantitatively that it is off the mark. You can't do that with Dan Brown.

Can you explain what he means by "precarious" in the sentence quoted by spindrift?

And don't just make up what you think he might mean. Give an explanation that can be supported by reference to a definition of "precarious" that's given in a published dictionary - any definition in any popular dictionary will do, I'm certainly not snobbish about which dictionary you use.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #126 on: 27 June, 2013, 12:31:15 pm »
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/6194031/The-Lost-Symbol-and-The-Da-Vinci-Code-author-Dan-Browns-20-worst-sentences.html

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Deception Point, chapter 8: Overhanging her precarious body was a jaundiced face whose skin resembled a sheet of parchment paper punctured by two emotionless eyes.

You can measure the pitch of the voice electronically and prove quantitatively that it is off the mark. You can't do that with Dan Brown.

Can you explain what he means by "precarious" in the sentence quoted by spindrift?

And don't just make up what you think he might mean. Give an explanation that can be supported by reference to a definition of "precarious" that's given in a published dictionary - any definition in any popular dictionary will do, I'm certainly not snobbish about which dictionary you use.

Well then, the only explanation can be THE definition of precarious as defined by a dictionary -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=precarious&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
"Adjective

    Not securely held or in position; dangerously likely to fall or collapse."

He is using 'precarious', an adjective, to describe 'her body', which is a noun. This is therefore correct use of the English language. I'm not aware of the context but it's not a logical impossibility that her body was precarious.

Re: an apology
« Reply #127 on: 27 June, 2013, 12:34:35 pm »
In other news, I appear to have run out of popcorn.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #128 on: 27 June, 2013, 12:58:39 pm »
Well then, the only explanation can be THE definition of precarious as defined by a dictionary -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=precarious&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
"Adjective

    Not securely held or in position; dangerously likely to fall or collapse."

Nope. Don't see it. Using this definition, you'd talk of your footing being precarious, or the position of your body ("position" being the noun the adjective modifies, rather than "body"), but it's certainly not standard usage to describe a body itself as being precarious.

(The overhanging face troubles me too. Conjures up a very strange mental image.)

[edit: out of interest, I googled the phrase "precarious body". Of the 4,750 results, most refer to Dan Brown.  ::-) ]

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He is using 'precarious', an adjective, to describe 'her body', which is a noun. This is therefore correct use of the English language. I'm not aware of the context but it's not a logical impossibility that her body was precarious.

"Luxurious" is an adjective, "elephant" is a noun. Therefore you know exactly what I mean when I talk of a luxurious elephant, right?

Are you familiar with the concept of a category mistake?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #129 on: 27 June, 2013, 01:01:32 pm »
"Luxurious" is an adjective, "elephant" is a noun. Therefore you know exactly what I mean when I talk of a luxurious elephant, right?

Are you familiar with the concept of a category mistake?

:-\ well you could have one that's got just a bog standard saddle, and another one that's got a fancy carpet with tassles and a cup holder?

Re: an apology
« Reply #130 on: 27 June, 2013, 01:02:24 pm »
In other news, I appear to have run out of popcorn.

<hands Ham some popcorn>  I hope you like salty
<i>Marmite slave</i>

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #131 on: 27 June, 2013, 01:02:41 pm »
 :facepalm:
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

billplumtree

  • Plumbing the well of gitness
Re: an apology
« Reply #132 on: 27 June, 2013, 01:42:27 pm »
Ned Beauman also has a way with metaphor that fans of Chandler will appreciate. For example: "There was enough ice in her voice for a serviceable daiquiri." Or: "The sort of moustache that could beat you in an arm-wrestling contest." In fact, the whole bonkers plot is very Chandleresque in many respects.

The first one reminds me of Wodehouse's wonderful 'Ice formed on the butler's upper slopes.'  And the second one sounds very Wodehousian an'all.

*goes off to look up Ned Beauman*

Re: an apology
« Reply #133 on: 27 June, 2013, 01:48:44 pm »
*goes off to look up Ned Beauman*
I say, sir! Can't a chap have some dignity!

<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: an apology
« Reply #134 on: 27 June, 2013, 02:06:02 pm »
... If you can read 100 words of Dan Brown's words quicker than you can read 20 of one of your authors then the story flows better. ..
Ben shut the fuck up about 'my' authors! You keep inventing a set of difficult authors & claiming they're my taste. It is not true. I have told you that it is not true. Stop calling me a liar!

FYI, I'm currently re-reading Making Money, by Terry Pratchett. I'm enjoying it, & it's going very quickly. I do not find it possible to believe that I'd read 100 words of Dan Brown faster than 20 words of Pratchett, & think it unlikely that I'd read 20 words of Brown faster than 20 words of Pratchett.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #135 on: 27 June, 2013, 02:18:56 pm »
The first one reminds me of Wodehouse's wonderful 'Ice formed on the butler's upper slopes.'  And the second one sounds very Wodehousian an'all.

Oh yes, that is a beautiful Wodehouse line. I'm sure it's no coincidence that I consider Wodehouse and Chandler among my very favourite writers.

Wodehouse is brilliant on physical appearances...

"She looked as if she had been poured into her clothes and forgotten to say 'when'."

"He was more like something out of Dickens than anything human."

I would find it hard to subscribe to an argument that either of those descriptions could be improved by the addition of more detail.

And if nothing more comes of this thread than I've helped a few more people discover Ned Beauman, I'll consider it to have been all worthwhile.  :thumbsup:
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #136 on: 27 June, 2013, 02:28:36 pm »
... If you can read 100 words of Dan Brown's words quicker than you can read 20 of one of your authors then the story flows better. ..
Ben shut the fuck up about 'my' authors! You keep inventing a set of difficult authors & claiming they're my taste. It is not true. I have told you that it is not true. Stop calling me a liar!

FYI, I'm currently re-reading Making Money, by Terry Pratchett. I'm enjoying it, & it's going very quickly. I do not find it possible to believe that I'd read 100 words of Dan Brown faster than 20 words of Pratchett, & think it unlikely that I'd read 20 words of Brown faster than 20 words of Pratchett.


Re: an apology
« Reply #137 on: 27 June, 2013, 02:28:42 pm »
Cut the crap & stop trying to wind me up. You've just shown that it's deliberate - and childish.

He is using 'precarious', an adjective, to describe 'her body', which is a noun. This is therefore correct use of the English language. I'm not aware of the context but it's not a logical impossibility that her body was precarious.
There's more to correct combination than adjective + noun. Not all pairs are possible. Try to imagine a soft diamond, or hot ice, for example - and I mean hot as in temperature, & ice as in frozen water, not a stolen diamond.

Brown uses adjectives which are inappropriate. E.g. "the enormous cabin of a Falcon 2000EX corporate jet". Enormous? I'm not exactly tall, but I've been in an aircraft cabin the same width & height as that of a Falcon 2000, & found it narrow, with an oppressively low ceiling. Many people I know can't stand upright in it. It's very small compared to a narrow-body airliner, which is what I think most people would use as a reference point for aircraft cabins.

He uses adjectives which are irrelevant, e.g. "Renowned curator Jacques Saunière staggered through the vaulted archway of the museum's Grand Gallery".  He throws in irrelevant details (& sometimes gets 'em wrong), such as the fuel consumption of a car, or a description of a watch, & who gave it to its owner & when, when a character checks the time. These are typical of hack writers paid by the word, or writing to a target book length & needing to add filler.

So yes, it is possible to show that Brown's style is bad. Indeed, it's very easy to show it.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: an apology
« Reply #138 on: 27 June, 2013, 02:37:09 pm »
'vaulted archway'
You can have a vaulted ceiling or you can have an archway. You can't have both.

'precarious body'.
A body can be in a precarious position or situation. It can be 'precariously' positioned. A body can't be  precarious.

DB uses adjectives like a 10-year-old with a random adjective-generator on his computer. Except the 10-year-old is likely to add 'bottom' and 'fart'  and with a greater sense of comedic timing.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: an apology
« Reply #139 on: 27 June, 2013, 02:41:34 pm »
I think Ben would be great at marking school english essays.
"Yup, spelling's fine, grammar's ok - another one for the 'A' grade pile."

(Letting them write on word processors might make that 'A' pile rather large.)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: an apology
« Reply #140 on: 27 June, 2013, 02:42:29 pm »
... If you can read 100 words of Dan Brown's words quicker than you can read 20 of one of your authors then the story flows better. ..
Ben shut the fuck up about 'my' authors! You keep inventing a set of difficult authors & claiming they're my taste. It is not true. I have told you that it is not true. Stop calling me a liar!

FYI, I'm currently re-reading Making Money, by Terry Pratchett. I'm enjoying it, & it's going very quickly. I do not find it possible to believe that I'd read 100 words of Dan Brown faster than 20 words of Pratchett, & think it unlikely that I'd read 20 words of Brown faster than 20 words of Pratchett.



Bravo!
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: an apology
« Reply #141 on: 27 June, 2013, 02:59:50 pm »
I think Ben would be great at marking school english essays.
"Yup, spelling's fine, grammar's ok - another one for the 'A' grade pile."

(Letting them write on word processors might make that 'A' pile rather large.)

"This one has literary references! Fail!"
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #142 on: 27 June, 2013, 03:00:27 pm »
There's more to correct combination than adjective + noun. Not all pairs are possible. Try to imagine a soft diamond, or hot ice, for example - and I mean hot as in temperature, & ice as in frozen water, not a stolen diamond.
Well they're logical impossibilities, but I would have to know more of the context to be sure that a "precarious body" was a logical impossibility.

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Brown uses adjectives which are inappropriate. E.g. "the enormous cabin of a Falcon 2000EX corporate jet". Enormous? I'm not exactly tall, but I've been in an aircraft cabin the same width & height as that of a Falcon 2000, & found it narrow, with an oppressively low ceiling.
No, sorry - that's at worst unrealistic, not incorrect use of language. A falcon 2000EX might not be big - but it quite easily could be.

If it genuinely is a small plane then that's simply an unrealistic description - not fundamentally inappropriate on the language level.

You dont' actually get monks called Silas with guns and who whip themselves in italy as well, and freemasons and the illuminati doesn't really exist - but that doesn't mean it's bad use of language.

If you're presenting simple unrealisticness as 'incorrect use of language' and expecting me to believe you then why should I believe you can't have a "vaulted archway"? I know what he means, and I suspect most people do, as well. Even if you can find a rule that contradicts it - language evolves, that rule might be outdated. Language is purely a human construct, things that are regarded as perfectly valid language now may not have been 50 years ago. Dan Brown may be an evolver of language, as Shakespeare was.

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Many people I know can't stand upright in it. It's very small compared to a narrow-body airliner, which is what I think most people would use as a reference point for aircraft cabins.
I haven't been in one - so I don't know that. That's not incorrect use of language - it's simply unrealistic.
I imagine if you actually tried it you probably couldn't actually handbrake turn a smart car in reverse on the narrow back streets of paris but that doesn't take anything away from the story.
The point is that it's a private jet with a make and model name, and it's quite large inside. That's all.
Dan Brown obviously hasn't been in one either, but that just makes him unknowledgeable on aviation matters, not a bad writer.

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He uses adjectives which are irrelevant, e.g. "Renowned curator Jacques Saunière staggered through the vaulted archway of the museum's Grand Gallery".  He throws in irrelevant details (& sometimes gets 'em wrong), such as the fuel consumption of a car, or a description of a watch, & who gave it to its owner & when, when a character checks the time. These are typical of hack writers paid by the word, or writing to a target book length & needing to add filler.

This is diverging from fact, back into the realms of opinion, preference and taste. It's not fact that they're irrelevant - that's just your opinion.

The thing about a body not being able to be 'precarious' is the only charge I've seen that's verging on factual incorrectness, but I'm still not convinced it is - I would have to read more around the context to be sure.
And given that most of the beef with the "20 worst Dan Brown sentences" (which is being touted as 'proof' he is a bad writer) is 'unnecessary description', which on closer examination is purely a matter of opinion, there is a clear precedence for opinion masquerading as fact (or, rather, the charge that he is a bad writer being purely opinion. Hence snobbery. Which like I say is fine - but we're not really getting very far off the ground in establishing it as concrete fact.)

Re: an apology
« Reply #143 on: 27 June, 2013, 03:18:41 pm »
You are telling me that freemasons don't exist?  Must be to do with the decline in non-vaulted archways. (what did I do with that leather apron?

Ben, you are now talking twaddle and you know it. If a writer quotes something as specific as an airplane make and model, they should check if that 'plane is small, large, jet powered, whatever. If they are going to base a book around lots of buildings with classical architecture (such as churches), then they should know the difference between an arch and a vault.

Not researching these things makes them a bad writer. DB isn't alone.

I offended my son by telling him a book he liked was written by a bad writer. Why?  It had people drinking half-pints in Queensland (a half-pint is a schooner) amongst  many other errors.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: an apology
« Reply #144 on: 27 June, 2013, 03:21:44 pm »
At best then, good and lazy nonsense  :thumbsup:

Re: an apology
« Reply #145 on: 27 June, 2013, 03:24:04 pm »
I offended my son by telling him a book he liked was written by a bad writer. Why?  It had people drinking half-pints in Queensland (a half-pint is a schooner) amongst  many other errors.

Ah, this reminds me of reading stories set in Victorian (or Georgian) England, as written by Americans. One character attached a Steampunk-contraption to their "suspenders". My eyes watered, until I realised they meant "braces". :D
Have you seen my blog? It has words. And pictures! http://ablogofallthingskathy.blogspot.com/

Re: an apology
« Reply #146 on: 27 June, 2013, 03:32:53 pm »
I offended my son by telling him a book he liked was written by a bad writer. Why?  It had people drinking half-pints in Queensland (a half-pint is a schooner) amongst  many other errors.

Ah, this reminds me of reading stories set in Victorian (or Georgian) England, as written by Americans. One character attached a Steampunk-contraption to their "suspenders". My eyes watered, until I realised they meant "braces". :D
Hmm - entirely conceivable that they meant 'suspenders'.  I've seen pictures of some of those things that Victorians built. Talk of 'hot and throbbing' . . . .

Just don't google this at work.


<i>Marmite slave</i>

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: an apology
« Reply #147 on: 27 June, 2013, 03:34:17 pm »
I'm very forgiving of minor factual errors [or rather I tend not to spot them!]. However, if they started mounting up I would start to notice, and it might irritate me.

And I agree that if a writer goes out of his way to introduce unnecessary detail, he really ought to get it right. (or he should invent things that are impossible to check)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Euan Uzami

Re: an apology
« Reply #148 on: 27 June, 2013, 03:34:22 pm »
You are telling me that freemasons don't exist?  Must be to do with the decline in non-vaulted archways. (what did I do with that leather apron?

Ben, you are now talking twaddle and you know it. If a writer quotes something as specific as an airplane make and model, they should check if that 'plane is small, large, jet powered, whatever. If they are going to base a book around lots of buildings with classical architecture (such as churches), then they should know the difference between an arch and a vault.

Not researching these things makes them a bad writer. DB isn't alone.

I offended my son by telling him a book he liked was written by a bad writer. Why?  It had people drinking half-pints in Queensland (a half-pint is a schooner) amongst  many other errors.

The anti-Dan Brown brigade have tried to avoid the charge of snobbery by saying he uses technically incorrect language which if (and only if) true would justify ridicule, but when the detail is drilled into, it transpires that it's simply unrealistic - yet now you're trying to say that the two amount to the same thing. I maintain that they don't. If you insist they do, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

spindrift

Re: an apology
« Reply #149 on: 27 June, 2013, 03:42:08 pm »
Wodehouse had the lovely line:

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It's very hard to confuse a ray of sunshine with a Scotsman with a grievance.