Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => The Dark Side => Topic started by: Cycling Daddy on 30 January, 2016, 07:39:31 am
-
Hi
I suppose that this post might be redundant since I suspect my mind is already made up but I have an open mind. However, thought I would post as a reality check.
I am thinking about getting a recumbent trike. (ICE probably Sprint). I have been ‘reading up’ on this a bit. My understanding is that overall it will likely end up a bit slower (circa 2kph) than a DF but be more comfortable? That in terms of performance it will do better on flatter rides.
I am impelled upon this search because I fancy spending a £xxxx on a new bike I find that longer rides say 300km + are limited by comfort rather than stamina issues and anyway a trike sounds like a go kart so should be a hoot and I like being different. I also have heart issues which mean I need to stop on the way up some longer inclines and have to spin anyway.
My objective this year is to ride Borders of Belgium (1000km BRM in September) and LEL next year. Some of the BOB riders are suggesting that it will be a bit of a challenge on a trike. My heart tells me to buy today my head says listen to advice and weigh up your options. I have already spent hundreds of pounds on bike fit and different saddles. I have had my heart fixed and my legs are being done shortly which should help. I am a full value rider so a 2kph reduction might be important but my feeling is that greater comfort will improve my performance (the fix on my heart has also done that). Very grateful if anyone has any advice with about whether to spend the money in the first place or as to the precise model.
Les
PS I do not have a beard does this mean I am DQd
-
No ,of course not !.beards do not take long to grow ;D .
You will find the trike slower uphill but overall the comfort and ability to climb anything you have traction on is great. Maybe the vortex trice would offer you the least hill climbing speed loss . coming downhill on my adventure trice at40mph makes me ;D
-
Reading what you say, I wonder if a recumbent bike might not be a better option. Trikes are slower than DF bikes although give a huge fun factor, a recumbent bike ought to be faster.
Have a look at Troytec bikes for an idea of fast recumbent two-wheelers.
I love my ICE Sprint (see www.auntiehelen.co.uk) but I am slower than I would be on a two wheeler...
-
Hi CD, I'm by no means an experienced triker yet, but I can give you a newbie perspective, it might help your decision.
I made the upgrade from df to bent trike in October, just like you as above 300k I was getting blimmin uncomfortable and became more and more enticed to the dark side. I don't know a huge amount about the ICE models but I got a Catrike 700 and tbh I would be surprised if I ever go back to df, possibly the best decision in bike buying I ever made. Flat roads = fun, downhills = freaking fun, uphills = a bit slower and spinnier.
Its like being a little kid again, when your mate had a great go cart and you got to have a go in it.
I too primarily got one for longer audax and eventually LEL next year (might see you there). Sure I'm about 1mph slower than on my df but in terms of fun and comfort its freaking leagues ahead, plus I'm yet to get outside and off the rollers since November to see if I've got my bent legs yet, I think that could address some of the speed disparity.
I think what finally helped me make the decision and get rid of some of my long distance fears was reading Andy Allsop's book and seeing those guys on the elliptigo's doing LEL previously.
In short, my advice is a heavily biased do it you wont regret it!
-
Reading what you say, I wonder if a recumbent bike might not be a better option. Trikes are slower than DF bikes although give a huge fun factor, a recumbent bike ought to be faster.
Have a look at Troytec bikes for an idea of fast recumbent two-wheelers.
I love my ICE Sprint (see www.auntiehelen.co.uk) but I am slower than I would be on a two wheeler...
Hi Thank you for a prompt post. I had already read your blog which was really useful and encouraged me...I have been thinking about this for sometime. I can see what you mean about a bike rather than trike...but is it easy to stop and start on hills. If I hit 140 bpm I have to stop and allow HR to settle down. I am quite good at spotting stopping points and am not above walking up...not sure how that option would be on a recumbent bike either though. L
-
I have never ridden a recumbent bike as I have to be really careful about falling off my bikes and the trike was the obvious safest option but I have read the experiences of others here and it seems to be something one can learn well enough. I have ridden with my friend Morten here in Germany and he was able to ride his recumbent bike incredibly slowly with no stability issues at all. He's an audaxer so has loads of kilometres under his belt, but it seems that practice certainly helps!
-
I may not be the most qualified person to advise here but your post includes some comments that suggest our situations might be similar. Until last October, I’ve been Audaxing fairly seriously since 2007, having then been recently retired and having the time to devote to the bike.
Since then, I’d maintained an unbroken RRTY and annual SR, gained my Brevet 25,000 and notched up a PBP and two LELs. I mention this not to boast (after all, in the AUK annals, it’s a pretty commonplace palmares) but to put the following into context.
By 2013 however, age and decrepitude had caught up with me and I was suffering an unacceptable level of discomfort on the bike, primarily upper body stuff – pains in my hands, arms and head/neck. I’d done all the bike fit analysis, custom frame and position tuning stuff and still I was in pain. I don’t possess the ‘athletic gene’ and have always been a ‘full value’ rider; every Audax ride had become a race against the clock and I was no longer enjoying my Audaxing. I came to the conclusion that my Audaxing days were drawing to a close. But I didn’t want to give up without a fight and I’d always been curious about recumbents. Plus, I enjoy tinkering and a ‘bent would be a whole new area to play in!
To cut a long story short, I then went through a sustained learning curve involving several two wheelers and an ICE VTX. So how does this waffle help? Well, my conclusions are: (a) for a newcomer to recumbent riding at least, the trike is a lot slower than a two wheeler; (b) the aerodynamic advantage is available only to stronger riders who can power the machine up to the speeds where it counts – otherwise the extra weight (and drag if on three wheels) counts too much against you; (c) mastering a two wheeler is tricky if like me, you are challenged in the power-to-weight ratio area – the stall speed when climbing is rather higher than a DF – you can’t get out of the saddle to balance; (d) if your objective is proper long distance Audax, you need to pay close attention to getting the machine weight down.
Now, I have to admit that there are many riders out there to whom the above will be nonsense and who will say that they have no problem muscling a 30+ lb machine around a 600km Audax every week. But those people are the ones who have the fitness to do it. If like me, you are on the cusp of only just being able to manage to get round within the time limit on a DF, a ‘bent will not be a silver bullet. The ‘bent – whether two wheels or three - will be slower (at least at first) and you will need sufficient power-to-weight capabilities to compensate for the less efficient riding position.
I’m not saying a ‘bent isn’t a good idea for Audax – on balance, I still think they can be the perfect tool for the job – it’s just that, for me at least, it hasn’t been a straightforward solution. The usual advice for people wondering if a particular bike is right for them is to say ‘try before you buy’ but this doesn’t work for two wheeled ‘bents. You can’t just tool up and try a two wheeler because the balancing/starting/stopping learning curve takes too long and there are too many different models to be able to pick the right one at short notice.
The trike however, is different. The ICE is such a blast that even if I had to get rid of every other bike I own, I’d keep the ICE. Over longer distances especially, the ability to relax, to eat on the move, to see around corners, to stop and start halfway up a hill, to pull over anywhere and have a comfortable bed in which to doze, and the greater respect received from motorised road users, for me, all combine to make it a very attractive proposition. For Audax though, you will need a better power-to-weight ratio than on a two wheeler to maintain the necessary speed, given the extra drag and weight.
There a number of other issues I could rabbit on about, but this waffle is long enough already! I hope this helps.
-
Thank you Pedro. Yes 'you speak my mind' in many ways. I have an idea about this weight thingy based on the fact that I personally carry a 20 kilo bonus of which I could be rid. This could make a trike 'lighter' than my DF :) Not much I can do about the RR of the third wheel. There seems to be a trend here to say get the 'lightest' possible. SPrint X or VTX. I was put off from the VTX because I wondered how comfortable it would stay being that laid back. OTH To buy then need to sell at huge loss in order to upgrade is an unfortunate experience with at least two rounds of marital strife rather than one. Anyone ride a VTZ X over longer distances??
-
My "journey to the dark side" FWIW is about a ten months old so far.
Inspired very much by a sense of "they look cool" plus the possibilities of going faster or at least as fast with less effort, plus increasing discomfort in wrists, arms, shoulders, ar$e. Fitness not an issue, I was able to complete 100k+ rides in the heat of Majorca last year and up and down Alps in Salzburg the year before, plus some pretty decent running in ultramarathons.
I was also a little trepidatious, but had in my mind bikes rather than trikes (I'm not that old yet was in my mind). I tried a few out at a local supplier and found that although there is a definite learning curve, the art of stopping and starting and different steering behaviour are the most significant issues. Not many hills where I live, but I've found the main thing is just gear down and twiddle.
I bought an ICE B2, which is pretty heavy, but versatile and a good learning machine I've found, also cementing the dark side as the way forward in my mind. Now that I think I'm OK riding one of these things (about 800km later) I'm planning a build of my own lighter machine. Although I would Audax on the ICE, I want to faster as well as further.
Value - I think there is a lot of evidence that they hold it fairly well.
Did I mention I have an ICE B2 for sale, 26" disc brake wheels, rear rack, mudguards, 3 x 7 speed?
-
NOt sure that I am going to go down the 2 Wheel route however :)
L
-
Biggest advantage of a trike is that you don't have to get off it when you stop.
Redshift OTP has covered many thousands of miles on a Windcheetah. I happen to have one for sale (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=84991.msg1737523#msg1737523).
What do you mean, 'shameless'? ;D
-
.............. I personally carry a 20 kilo bonus..
Likewise - it's the main reason for my inability to maintain Audax pace!
..... of which I could be rid. ...
If only I could lose it! (But that's the subject of other threads!)
.... There seems to be a trend here to say get the 'lightest' possible. SPrint X or VTX. I was put off from the VTX because I wondered how comfortable it would stay being that laid back. OTH To buy then need to sell at huge loss in order to upgrade is an unfortunate experience with at least two rounds of marital strife rather than one.
I was fortunate in being given leave by SWMBO to budget for a VTX+ and I went for it on the grounds of it being the lightest. Delivered, it was a shade under 29 lbs with pedals. And yes, in that form, it did seem to go like a rat up a drainpipe. The trouble is, with all the Audax paraphenalia you have to sling on any bike and with me swapping out the skiny tyres for Schwalbe Trykers and a 35mm Marathon Racer rear, then adding a dynohub and lamps, banana bags, water tools, etc. it rapidly turned into feeling very much more 'tourer' and I have wondered if a carefully specced Sprint would have come out very similar but at a much reduced cost. I've also occasionally struggled with an insufficiently low bottom gear and a 26" rear wheel would help with that too, but that's really more down to my abysmal fitness! Most of the time it's OK although I do take care with my knees - hardsheel seated 'bents are dangerous for knees!
I used a small wheeled Q for a month borrowed from a friend before I got my VTX+ and it was definitely slower, though not by a huge amount. It had rear suspension but the VTX on a larger section rear tyre on the bigger wheel is as comfortable I'd say. My experience has been that shocks from big holes are slightly less with the suspension but that the continuous road buzz is damped equally well by the VTX.
The most significant aspect with regard to comfort, for me, is my neck. And this applies to both three and two wheelers. After many years of straining to keep my head up (backwards) to see down the road ahead of me, the 'bents (and this applies to all I've tried) now require muscular strength in the opposite direction and I've found a head/neck rest is essential. But this doesn't seem to be a common complaint and I think that once again, it's proably down to my particular lack of fitness. It's also something that practice should deal with over time. I do admit to having the seat raked fairly well back, albeit not absolutely as far as it will go.
Anyone ride a VTZ X over longer distances??
The most I've done on mine is a 300km but there were several used successfully on PBP this year.
-
I've ridden both bikes and trikes and I'd go with a bike for audaxing as it's simply easier. Easier as in faster, more time in the bank to get round.
As for models, M5 carbon high racer, Schilliter Encore or a Cruzbike V20/Silvio. I personally have a Cruzbike V20 and it is the fastest bike I've ever ridden, far faster then my trike when I had it and even quicker than anyone on a DF.
It's very unfortunate that the market is shifting over to trikes as sales of these have rocketed whilst sales of two wheelers have declined.
-
Try and get in contact with Kevin Dunseath at D-Tek, Tel. 01353 648 177, Email dtekhpvs@btconnect.com
He's based in Little Thetford near Ely.
You can book a morning/afternoon and try out a range of second-hand bents that he owns.
If you find one you like you could always buy it for a longer trial.
If you don't get on with it, then just resell it for what you bought it for.
The advantage of going to D-Tek is you start on a fairly upright bent which are easy to start on but not fast.
And as the day goes on and you get used to them, you get more recumbent which are harder to start but faster when you get used to them.
-
Try and get in contact with Kevin Dunseath at D-Tek, Tel. 01353 648 177, Email dtekhpvs@btconnect.com
He's based in Little Thetford near Ely.
You can book a morning/afternoon and try out a range of second-hand bents that he owns.
If you find one you like you could always buy it for a longer trial.
If you don't get on with it, then just resell it for what you bought it for.
The advantage of going to D-Tek is you start on a fairly upright bent which are easy to start on but not fast.
And as the day goes on and you get used to them, you get more recumbent which are harder to start but faster when you get used to them.
Little Thetford being about 5 miles from me, so you could try them all at his place, and then come and buy mine :).
That is a good suggestion though, I did the same before I bought the B2. He is not the easiest to get hold of though
-
There are may useful answers here. My current state of thinking is that whilst I will still use my DF bike (club rides, commuting in London) for longer distances I need the added comfort that a bent offers.
SO my initial choice is 2 wheels or 3.
2 = fun, faster, will end up bailing and walking up steep longer inclines. Ease of riding OK but takes time to get used to? Will fall off promptly if I fall asleep. Wacky.
3 = fun, slower, could ride up almost anything if I get the gearing right. Easy to ride danger of falling asleep? Wacky
DO I have that about right. I estimate the speed difference as about 2/3 kph.? Walking uphill will make only a small difference to overall speed (not every hill and I can walk up as almost as fast as I can spin)
Hmmmm. Lucky I am in no hurry.
L
-
Looks like your real issue is being able to stop and restart on hills. Trike for you. Restarting a 2 wheel recumbent on a steep is sometimes impossible. You will however be slow, as you don't have the speed fitness to take aero benefit, you need to be a fast rider anyway to make a recumbent fast. However you will be comfortable on long rides, which is the bigger point. D tek is your source of detailed advice.
I think you may be a bit shocked at how slower it is, and surface dependant. Plus wet.
-
Surface dependent is really true - I am appallingly slower when the Tarmac is rough.
The real answer to your problem is a Velomobile of course as then you will be faster, still comfortable and stay dry.
-
The only times I've had to walk hills on a recumbent bike have been when I've fluffed a gear change and stalled. On a trike a spinning rear wheel can similarly bring you to an ignominious halt, particularly if the road is wet/sandy/covered in SkogTM. Here is what it looks like when that happens:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7573/15952066215_54505b3281_b.jpg)
Sand in the gaps between the cobbles. I had to wait to be rescued as the parking brake wouldn't hold it when I tried to get off...
-
Looks like your real issue is being able to stop and restart on hills. Trike for you. Restarting a 2 wheel recumbent on a steep is sometimes impossible. You will however be slow, as you don't have the speed fitness to take aero benefit, you need to be a fast rider anyway to make a recumbent fast. However you will be comfortable on long rides, which is the bigger point. D tek is your source of detailed advice.
I think you may be a bit shocked at how slower it is, and surface dependant. Plus wet.
I'm just as fast on the recumbent as on a df. The difference is effort to produce that speed.
70k on the B2, 27.3k/h @ ave hr 140, Max 155
52k on the df 27.3 k/h @ ave hr 154, Max 164
Similar conditions, triple on each, standard on the df, 44/34/22 on the bent, both with 700c wheel
-
Surface dependent is really true - I am appallingly slower when the Tarmac is rough.
The real answer to your problem is a Velomobile of course as then you will be faster, still comfortable and stay dry.
Hi Aunt Helen,
I was trying to weigh velomobiles should have posted that as well. Are they really that much faster (and how hot do they get in summer?) compared to say a trike with fairing(s)? I would anticipate storage challenges with a velo. These would decrease when we move to Cornwall (3 2 years time) where we will but a property with sensible storage for the car/spare furniture the bike collection.
3 wheel velomobile.
Option 3 Fun and funnier, will go even faster, even slower uphill, I assume goes like a screaming banshee downhill, faster on flat. Storage and transport challenges, higher marital strife factor.
Funny I posted here thinking I knew enough to make my own decisions. As other have pointed out a trip to Ely might be in order.
L
-
I think Tigerrr has it about right (which is to say, he’s expressed more succinctly what I was trying to say!) There’s no doubt that practised ‘bent riders, fully acclimatised to the recumbent position, can punch their machines along as fast as the equivalent DF riders, faster if we’re talking higher speeds where the aero advantage comes into play. But for fitness-challenged riders such as myself, the aero advantage arrives only when going downhill and as we all know, there’s never enough of that to compensate for the uphill.
I’m impressed with ElyDave’s figures, especially since I believe he’s not been riding ‘bents for very long (sorry if wrong there Dave!) but I think it proves my point. It’s been many years since I could achieve an average of 27kph on a DF – at that speed, there’ll be enough aero benefit to play to the ‘bent’s strength. For those of us who make an average nearer 17kph over 200km, the aero doesn’t really happen (apart from vicious headwinds, when the ‘bent struggles less!)
The choice between a two or a three wheeled ‘bent as I see it, is a simple power-to-weight+ rolling resistance calculation. If you’ve got the grunt to power a two wheeler uphill and avoid stalling, the two wheeler wins hands down. But this uphill thing is more than just having to get off and walk occasionally – slow speed on a two wheeler means wobbling and even grinding slowly upwards can be fraught if I’m weaving dangerously about trying to steer. On top of that, I’m often at absolute maximal effort when climbing and there’s been times when I’ve brought on a form of asthmatic attack – I’ve gone so deep into the red trying to keep above stall speed that I’ve had to stop for several minutes to regain the ability to breathe, something that’s never, ever happened on a DF no matter how steep and long the ascent!
These issues however, are seriously relevant only for truly ‘full value’ riders such as myself. You (Cycling Daddy) haven’t said anything about your age or general riding speed/ability other than to say “I am a full value rider so a 2kph reduction might be important” – this could mean that, like me, a 2kph reduction in average speed will mean a fail on an Audax, or it could just mean (as for ElyDave) a shorter stay in the café halfway round!
Edited to add - if you can get to see Kevin at D-Tek it's well worth it - it's what I did and I didn't regret it. But he's not your usual bike shop and sometimes it needs patience and an open-minded approach to contact him!
-
Pedro, your right, I started in March last year after a trip to Kevin about a month before.
I tried 4 different 2-wheelers, fell off one of them, but was hooked.
I've never tried a trike, so am a little biased.
-
I think Tigerrr has it about right (which is to say, he’s expressed more succinctly what I was trying to say!) There’s no doubt that practised ‘bent riders, fully acclimatised to the recumbent position, can punch their machines along as fast as the equivalent DF riders, faster if we’re talking higher speeds where the aero advantage comes into play. But for fitness-challenged riders such as myself, the aero advantage arrives only when going downhill and as we all know, there’s never enough of that to compensate for the uphill.
I’m impressed with ElyDave’s figures, especially since I believe he’s not been riding ‘bents for very long (sorry if wrong there Dave!) but I think it proves my point. It’s been many years since I could achieve an average of 27kph on a DF – at that speed, there’ll be enough aero benefit to play to the ‘bent’s strength. For those of us who make an average nearer 17kph over 200km, the aero doesn’t really happen (apart from vicious headwinds, when the ‘bent struggles less!)
The choice between a two or a three wheeled ‘bent as I see it, is a simple power-to-weight+ rolling resistance calculation. If you’ve got the grunt to power a two wheeler uphill and avoid stalling, the two wheeler wins hands down. But this uphill thing is more than just having to get off and walk occasionally – slow speed on a two wheeler means wobbling and even grinding slowly upwards can be fraught if I’m weaving dangerously about trying to steer. On top of that, I’m often at absolute maximal effort when climbing and there’s been times when I’ve brought on a form of asthmatic attack – I’ve gone so deep into the red trying to keep above stall speed that I’ve had to stop for several minutes to regain the ability to breathe, something that’s never, ever happened on a DF no matter how steep and long the ascent!
These issues however, are seriously relevant only for truly ‘full value’ riders such as myself. You (Cycling Daddy) haven’t said anything about your age or general riding speed/ability other than to say “I am a full value rider so a 2kph reduction might be important” – this could mean that, like me, a 2kph reduction in average speed will mean a fail on an Audax, or it could just mean (as for ElyDave) a shorter stay in the café halfway round!
Edited to add - if you can get to see Kevin at D-Tek it's well worth it - it's what I did and I didn't regret it. But he's not your usual bike shop and sometimes it needs patience and an open-minded approach to contact him!
Hi
66 yo, 102 kg but can drop 10kg when cycling. I have had Afib which took me off my bike. This is now fixed but I am wary of running my HR above 140. I can spin hills of 8% or so (for those who know Surrey Hills I can spin up Box Hill but would plan to walk the steep bit of White Down. For those Up North I cycled most of the way up Yad Moss but not the cobbled bit in Alston). Anything more results in a rest or a walk. 200km times are 11 to 12 hours with my s fastest being 10 hours and my slowest HC. (included crash, concussion etc) about 15 hours. I see myself as a decadent rouleur, do OK on the flat, dreadful on the hills (the up ones) and worse when I am sleep deprived. I am not that fast on descent either having taken Leith Hill in a horizontal attitude (twice). On the flat with low/no wind average about 25 to 30 kph depending on where I am in a ride.
Les
-
Ely Dave rides 'fast' enough to see recumbent energy saving benefit by virtue of aero advantage. Those advantages increase as riding power output increases and can be very noticeable for a faster rider. A proper fit recumbenteer will cruise very fast indeed on the flat - easily matching a fit peloton. The fitter, the faster and faster. But you have to be in shape to do that.
It is a very different picture though if not fast, or carrying weight/aerobic weakness that hampers climbing. As many recumbenters are of course, having gone dark for reasons of fitness etc.
If you are in that club - Overall you will be slower, and very much so on terrain, poor roads, or in the wet. Hills can be very hard going under those circumstances, hauling heavy bod and bike, and once ground to a breathless halt with steam coming out of the ears, you won't restart on a 2 wheeler, due to the slow speed balance.
I speak from experience having been both the fit fast guy and the heavier less fit guy. My SL2 is hard aerobic work for me now, but used to be a rocket. I climb just above stall speed and dread a slipped gear etc.
So, if you are going to be slow - do it 3 wheels and at least you won't have to walk so much.
-
CD – it sounds as though we are at much the same place – I’m just approaching 69, about 90kg and my (flat) 200km time is about 12-13 hours, depending on whether or not I stop for a café feed or ride through using provisions I’m carrying.
I’ve actually abandoned Audaxing for now, since I no longer enjoy it, and I’m not going to improve by just doing the same thing over and over again. I’ve come to the conclusion that to continue, I really have to reduce my body fat percentage and improve my power-to-weight ratio, which will require a change of approach (not quite sure how yet!)
It’s very tricky to say definitively whether a two or three wheeler would be your best option. As I’ve outlined, neither works for me at the moment, because I’m fundamentally not fit enough. The trike is so much easier - no balance issues etc. – that it’s a no brainer if I just want to ride recumbent. But if I want to hit the higher average speed I need to make Audaxing enjoyable again (and of course that isn’t just scraping round just in time but having time to stop and feed, rest and enjoy the view, company, etc.) the trike isn’t fast enough with me in my present state.
So for me, the plan is to tackle the fat issue and use the trike at sub-Audax speeds at first, to build recumbent fitness – as you’ll have already realised I’m sure, ‘bent riders need better legs than DF riders! If I can make this work, I should be fit enough to push a two wheeler fast enough uphill not to weave all over the place and then the speed advantage of two wheels over the trike should enable me to go Audaxing again.
But we’re talking about YOUR best option – I’d say to get to see Kevin if you can, especially if you decide to go the trike route – ICE is, I think, the only brand he’s actually an official dealer for and he’s a font of knowledge on trikes generally and trades in all manner of makes. I’ll freely admit that a lot of my problem has been a lack of commitment to work on the fitness thing and getting my ‘bent legs. You may be made of sterner stuff and Lord knows there’s a lot of people out there who’ve “just gone out and done it.”
Whatever you decide, I wish you luck and keep us informed on your progress.
-
Surface dependent is really true - I am appallingly slower when the Tarmac is rough.
The real answer to your problem is a Velomobile of course as then you will be faster, still comfortable and stay dry.
Hi Aunt Helen,
I was trying to weigh velomobiles should have posted that as well. Are they really that much faster (and how hot do they get in summer?) compared to say a trike with fairing(s)? I would anticipate storage challenges with a velo. These would decrease when we move to Cornwall (3 2 years time) where we will but a property with sensible storage for the car/spare furniture the bike collection.
They are really that much faster. Really really. Daniel Fenn here in Germany who designed the DF and built it rode from Berlin to Hamburg at an average speed of 51km/h. Average! HaJo Stein did HBKH (Hamburg Berlin Köln Hamburg) way faster than anyone else - he arrived at the Köln control where I was helping first, and eight hours before the second person. There aren't many velomobiles about but they are usually much nearer the front than the back.
In summer my particular one is too warm for me if it is over 30 degrees outside, partly because I ride fairly slowly so airflow is less good. If you ride faster there might be more of a draught. Certainly Jedrik who occasionally posts here and has a Quest XS finds it fine in summer - but she's slim and small unlike me so has less internal body heat perhaps!
Storage for my velomobile is no harder than for my trike (it takes up about the same amount of room) and I can put things on top of it!
3 wheel velomobile.
Option 3 Fun and funnier, will go even faster, even slower uphill, I assume goes like a screaming banshee downhill, faster on flat. Storage and transport challenges, higher marital strife factor.
ANot only is it fun and funnier and goes faster but you aren't affected by the weather (except for extreme heat) as much. I just did a ride with some chums in drizzle. They all looked a bit fed up - I was warm and dry!
I agree it is worth going to Little Thetford to see Kevin and get some of his advice. That started me on my recumbenteering life... which has now led to a Trice Q, an ICE Sprint and a Versatile Velomobile. If you haven't yet seen my blog on www.auntiehelen.co.uk you should take a look as I talk about my trike and VM and their maintenance and why I chose them etc.
-
Re. the velomobile - I've never tried one and I agree they look great ... but. Surely the problem with a velo, for the less powerful rider, is the same as with the two-wheels-or-three debate i.e. if you ain't got the grunt to power it into the higher speed range, you don't get the aero benefit but you still have to carry (even more) weight? Sure, Daniel and HaJo post spectacular speeds but no doubt they are extremely fit people. And Cycling D. is intending to move to Cornwall, which if you ain't good on t'ills, is cycling unfriendly speed-wise, whatever you're riding, no?
-
No, the velomobile is much faster for me, for example, even though it weighs twice what my ICE Sprint weighs. It's the streamline fairing which means when you get up to a speed you can continue accelerating or at least maintain a faster speed more easily. I am 3-4km/h faster with the velomobile than my trike and it is really noticeable on windy days. I can maintain 35-40km/h for a couple of kilometres in my Versatile; I can't get the trike above 30.
-
No, the velomobile is much faster for me, for example, even though it weighs twice what my ICE Sprint weighs. It's the streamline fairing which means when you get up to a speed you can continue accelerating or at least maintain a faster speed more easily. I am 3-4km/h faster with the velomobile than my trike and it is really noticeable on windy days. I can maintain 35-40km/h for a couple of kilometres in my Versatile; I can't get the trike above 30.
That's quite fascinating. I had assumed that the speed threshold at which the aero benefit of the velo would cancel out its extra weight would be pretty high. (Or could it be that the real answer is that, secretly, YOU ARE SUPERWOMAN! :-D
-
Roffa, who sold me the velomobile, said the fairing only really starts to work at 25km/h but I don't think that can entirely be the case because I am quicker on it. Not only is Penelope heavier than the trike she is also higher up. She has the same tyres and the same riders (but different gearing - Rohloff instead of Alfine-11). My experience has been that although on short stop/start journeys I will be as slow as the trike (accelerating the 47kg of Penelope takes effort), as soon as you are on long roads without too many stops the average speed goes way up.
My usual ride to choir takes me 1 hour 15 on the trike and 1 hour in the velomobile, I just have to make sure I give myself enough time to get there if I'm riding the trike for a change.
-
No, the velomobile is much faster for me, for example, even though it weighs twice what my ICE Sprint weighs. It's the streamline fairing which means when you get up to a speed you can continue accelerating or at least maintain a faster speed more easily. I am 3-4km/h faster with the velomobile than my trike and it is really noticeable on windy days. I can maintain 35-40km/h for a couple of kilometres in my Versatile; I can't get the trike above 30.
That's quite fascinating. I had assumed that the speed threshold at which the aero benefit of the velo would cancel out its extra weight would be pretty high. (Or could it be that the real answer is that, secretly, YOU ARE SUPERWOMAN! :-D
On the flat with few stops and starts weight would make little difference. I can keep up with the bunch on the flat, even take the lead, but drop away on the hills (good power excessive weight). https://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/aerodynamics1.html has a gismo
-
Never done an Audax, just a few Randonnees and a Century. My trike ownership list is ICE T, Catrike Speed, ICE Sprint 26, Catrike 700. The only one I'd suggest was a plausible Audax machine is the Catrike 700. It's about 34 lbs in weight (with one mirror, pedals, and rear mudguard) before adding luggage. What makes it a plausible Audax m/c though is that it's efficient at getting power to the road and that it's acceptably comfortable with 28mm tyres.
I also own a Metabikes and a RANS Stratus XP. I'm not confident on the Metabikes in traffic with it's reclined seat. I've also been bounced out of the seat when going over bumps. I'm currently fitting a front fork with suspension to try to avoid that happening again. The Stratus weighs the same as the Catrike. I would expect the Stratus to be quicker with its two 26" wheels but I don't have any data. Now that I have a Smartphone I might try recording my rides using a cycle app and seeing what the diffferences are between bike and trike. The Stratus is also comfortable with 28mm tyres. It would be interesting to have a heart rate monitor to help in the comparison. Damn, I bought the wrong smartphone. :facepalm:
-
Late to the party here (I've been off playing with upwrongs in the mud), but I agree with those suggesting that two wheels, or at least a specifically 'fast' trike (like the Windcheetah or VTX), is the way to go for audax.
I'm mostly a touring cyclist, and at the full value end of the audax spectrum. My main bike is a HPVelotechnik Streetmachine GT, which is comfortable, stable, awesome at hauling luggage, and the sort of thing you can ride all day. All that fine German overengineering comes with a hefty weight penalty, which takes its toll if you're anything other than relaxed about climbing - I can happily do a 10-hour 200 on it, but I'll be the first to admit that - unless the alternative involves saddles - it's not really the right tool for the job. I have a stall speed of slightly below 2mph on it, so with sensible gearing there's very little that I can't ride up (even with a load), but sometimes lungs, traction issues or other traffic force you to stop, and if it's steep or slippery you might not get going again. A USS bike is a complete pain to push up hills, so my climbing philosophy is to aim not to have to stop, which is all about pacing and anticipation.
I've also ridden barakta's touring-spec ICE Sprint RS extensively (before we fitted electric assistance). The all-up weight was about the same as the SMGT, and I found that my climbing speeds were pretty much the same. However, I found the trike required noticeably more effort to maintain a similar speed on the flat, and was a lot less inclined to pick up speed on descents. Faster tyres improved things somewhat, but only as far as being about the same as my DF hybrid bike.
The great thing about trikes, of course, is that you can gear down even lower, and (traction permitting) never have to walk. But IMHO if that's an advantage to you for anything more than loaded touring, then you're probably going to struggle to stay within audax time limits. If stall speed isn't a problem, then you'll be better off performance-wise with a bike.
(Obviously there are other legitimate reasons for needing more than two wheels, as Auntie Helen illustrated.)
-
Re. the velomobile - I've never tried one and I agree they look great ... but. Surely the problem with a velo, for the less powerful rider, is the same as with the two-wheels-or-three debate i.e. if you ain't got the grunt to power it into the higher speed range, you don't get the aero benefit but you still have to carry (even more) weight? Sure, Daniel and HaJo post spectacular speeds but no doubt they are extremely fit people. And Cycling D. is intending to move to Cornwall, which if you ain't good on t'ills, is cycling unfriendly speed-wise, whatever you're riding, no?
Roughtly the amount of power that it takes to power a MTB 15mph will power a velo upto around the 30mph mark.
Lowering your drag co is king - period. the only time weight comes into effect is going up a long or steep hill.
To give you an idea about how much weight has nothing to do with going fast. The hour record for a sled is 56.89 miles, with the bike weighing just over four stone IIRC.
-
Unfortunately, cyclists spend most of their time going up long or steep hills.
The break-even point depends on the terrain.
-
When/if the OP moves to Cornwall, long and/or steep hills will definitely be the majority of his riding. Stupid T-junctions at the bottom of descent means not many opportunities for payback.
-
Yes, everyone has given you great advice.
Definitely go and see Kevin.
Try as many bents as you can, both 2 and 3 wheelers.
Light weight wins every time.
Suck it and see, you will almost certainly change your mind about which is best and want to buy another!
-
For the record, I've ridden both two- and three-wheeled recumbents up Alston High St. Just not very quickly.
-
Thanks one and all. I suspect that I will end up with a Velo but not until we have moved. (part of my cunning plan for Cornwall is to use Electronics to assist). I will try to make an assignation in Ely :) but have a 'busy' three weeks coming up. I do have to earn money to pay for my curious addiction. I will keep people in touch with progress. Meanwhile I shall start to lose weight and move my fitness up a few notches.
L
-
I was trying to weigh velomobiles should have posted that as well. Are they really that much faster (and how hot do they get in summer?) compared to say a trike with fairing(s)?
My carbon Quest can get very hot in summer when I spend time climbing hills in it. Short shorts and a skinny t-shirt is sometimes too much! You will see velomobile riders in summertime races wearing as little as they can get away with.
My best performance to date was 45 miles Edinburgh to Glasgow with a 2h30 moving time, but that was a carefully picked route of short sharp climbs and long gradual descents.
-
Pretty much every post in this thread contains great advice.
I don't have a great deal to offer in that regard. The one thing I will add is that the ability to just stop when riding uphill on a trike is really something else. It's not stop and get off the saddle, put your foot down, put your other foot down, pant over the bike a bit, steel yourself for getting going again, heave yourself up into riding postion, wobble a bit if it's really steep, have to stop again if it's too steep, etc. It's just stop. Rest. And when you feel ready, put some pressure on the pedals. A true revelation.
-
but remember to apply the handbrake, to avoid a long walk down the hill and then a ride back to where you started from. :P
-
Switched to recumbent three years ago and haven't looked back. I was never fast upright but am much faster and more comfortable now particularly on long rides.
Don't know why but I never considered a trike. After a lot of looking I opted for a high racer (Bachetta Giro) - classic all purpose compromise that does everything ok ly - commute, audax and touring including towing an Extra wheel.
Switched to 48/36/26 front matched to an 11-34 on the back after the first month to cope with Cairngorm hills. Now I can climb most hills and can only recall walking on a few occasions.
-
From my very limited experience with the Dino I would say that how much you you lose or gain with a 2 wheeled bent depends on your stall speed. I don't balance very well and I am sure that I have an awful waste of energy controlling the beast going uphill, energy that for me on a trike (if I had one) would go into moving forwards rather than staying upright. Of course that is only going uphill. (Similar to riding a tandem with all your camping gear on the bike or in a trailer behind; the trailer is much easier)
The reason that I don't use the Dino very much (if at all) is the difficulty of the learning curve handling it in traffic and lack of a means of transporting to where I might use it without traffic. The times that I have managed to use it, even with very little training, it has been very nearly as fast as a modest DF (+ or - 1kph ave).
-
Of course I do not do sensible things: check my byline. SO I have committed to buy a Trice Adventure. The point here is to 1) give me a chance to try things out and grow some recumbent legs 2) Test out exactly what the penalty is on a relatively slow machine. I think the price is fair and so if I ultimately decide to go with this and upgrade or not and use something else, I will be able to sell at little loss. I will add further progress as it happens.
Les
-
They're excellent machines. Very much tourers, but you could look at that as "good training". And as you say, eminently re-sellable.
-
I've read that the Adventure is ICE's best seller by a long way. I'm sure D-tek would take it in part-ex for a VTX should you want something faster later.
-
I've read that the Adventure is ICE's best seller by a long way. I'm sure D-tek would take it in part-ex for a VTX should you want something faster later.
Much what I had in mind glad I was not too silly jumping in like this. Hopefully this topic will need to be renamed 'upright and proper cyclist goes bent'
-
I've read that the Adventure is ICE's best seller by a long way.
They were onto a good thing as soon at they made an extremely easy to ride off-road capable trike, with a relatively high seat, that could fold up and be carried in the boot of a car.
I'm sure the main demographic (particularly in the US) is mobility/balance-impaired railway path pootlers rather than expedition tourists, but there's nothing wrong with that.
-
Good choice :thumbsup:. . I have a adventure trice :) . may you have many happy mile's on it :)
-
SO I pick my Trike up on Thursday. I have a 100km AUdax on Saturday, I suppose it would be insane ride this on the Trike, but ...
-
I have my first audax in two weeks, plan on doing it 'bent
-
SO I pick my Trike up on Thursday. I have a 100km AUdax on Saturday, I suppose it would be insane ride this on the Trike, but ...
Nice choice! Good luck with the audax.
I'm taking my trike on its first audax on sunday.
Look forward to hearing how it went!