Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => The Dark Side => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 08 June, 2019, 02:33:48 pm

Title: Pedal reflectors
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 June, 2019, 02:33:48 pm

Was talking to the designer of a pedal assist quad cycle, he mentioned that for UK compliance, the pedal reflectors need to be visible to both the front and rear.

Is this really the case? Where is that hidden in the regs? How do recumbents and velomobiles deal with it if it is the case?

J
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: bludger on 08 June, 2019, 02:46:58 pm
Yes it is the case. I recently learned of it when doing some British cycling e learning. It's just another stupid non enforced regulation from the highway code.

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answers/highway-code-for-cyclists

Section 60 (the MUST guidelines mean it is a bona fide rule as opposed to 'should').
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: fd3 on 08 June, 2019, 02:57:38 pm
I believe that
* These rules only apply at night (which is defined differently for bikes than cars IIRC)
* They must have amber pedal reflectors, there is no provision or requirement that takes into account the absurdity of these on recumbents (it's not specified that the reflectors need to point back/front)
* 90% of bikes fail this based on either clipless pedals or reflectors falling off the pedals
* It's handy for cops to be able to pull you over for this, but they are more likely to do so because you are riding assertively in traffic, or not wearing a helmet, and less likely to know that your pedals need reflectors.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Paul H on 08 June, 2019, 03:05:11 pm
I
* They must have amber pedal reflectors, there is no provision or requirement that takes into account the absurdity of these on recumbents (it's not specified that the reflectors need to point back/front)
The regulation if here
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/20/made
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 June, 2019, 03:50:35 pm
I
* They must have amber pedal reflectors, there is no provision or requirement that takes into account the absurdity of these on recumbents (it's not specified that the reflectors need to point back/front)
The regulation if here
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/20/made

So velomobiles are basically not road legal by the letter of the law? But noone is ever going to enforce such things?

J
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: bludger on 08 June, 2019, 03:52:54 pm
I think they know the pedal stuff would get thrown out of court because I should think at least 33% of cyclists in the country are in violation.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: fd3 on 08 June, 2019, 04:12:00 pm
By what Paul posted they need to be visible front/rear but there is no size required - so arguably a microscopic dot would do?  Or full sized reflectors could be argued to not be seen?
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 June, 2019, 05:15:08 pm

Thinking about it more, it seems like a totally stupid requirement, that messed up pretty much all bakfiets, as well as velomobiles. Ugh, I forget how when you read the letter of the law, what it says about bikes in .UK really is utterly upwrong centric...

Seems silly to have it on the books, even tho it's not enforced, where it may potentially stifle innovation and uptake of useful pedal cycles...

The designer of the quad cycle I was talking to was making a big point of how he had to engineer a solution to make the pedal reflectors visible front and rear. So his cycle would be UK legal. Feels like a massive compromise when legally it's not enforced.

J
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: FifeingEejit on 08 June, 2019, 05:22:39 pm
I
* They must have amber pedal reflectors, there is no provision or requirement that takes into account the absurdity of these on recumbents (it's not specified that the reflectors need to point back/front)
The regulation if here
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/20/made

So velomobiles are basically not road legal by the letter of the law? But noone is ever going to enforce such things?

J
They're perfectly legal, provided it's only used between the hours of sunrise and sunset.

The construction and use regulations are split between the 2 categories in the title, of which lights and reflectors are in the usage category rather than construction. And the usage restrictions for when they are required are in the regs.

Having 2 independent brakes however is construction.

As another example you can get a motorbike approved for daylight use only, when you mot it you get an advisory note reminding you of the usage restrictions that apply to it.

Pedal reflectors are available for spd and spd-sl so if anyone does try to use that reasoning for not having them it's not going to work but...

If you're in court for that then they've probably arsed up evidence for something else like my mate who got done for dodgy registration plates after the polis discovered the VASCAR had failed... The Jammy bas.


I remember I once read that the difference between Netherlands and English law is that while English law tells you what you're not allowed to do, Netherlands tells you what you are allowed to do... And of course in England/wales very few care about most of the things they're told you're not allowed to do anyway. (similar situation with Scots law and Scotland, NI a tad different...)

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: tatanab on 08 June, 2019, 05:29:45 pm

Thinking about it more, it seems like a totally stupid requirement, that messed up pretty much all bakfiets, as well as velomobiles. Ugh, I forget how when you read the letter of the law, what it says about bikes in .UK really is utterly upwrong centric...
Not true.  There are many cases where others cannot ensure rear visibility of pedal reflectors, such as those who use panniers or tricycles where full visibility is obstructed by the axle or a low level saddle bag carrier.  For your quad manufacturer, they probably cannot meet the letter of the law because of axle obstruction, so the way around it is to sell without pedals.  Agreed, it is a very poorly considered requirement which is largely ignored.  Many of us use reflective ankle bands instead.   I remember reading that when it was pointed out to the lawmakers that few (at that time) pedals accepted reflectors, the answer came back "can't you get some pedals made?"
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Kim on 08 June, 2019, 06:21:28 pm
It's a stupid rule, and IMHO it should be relaxed to point of sale, in line with the requirement for bells.  While they're pretty much redundant as soon as the bike has proper lights fitted, pedal reflectors are so useful for spotting BSOists, that I'd hate to abandon them entirely.

(I have pedal reflectors on my about-town upright.  The other uprights have Scotchlite on the cranks.  I don't bother on the recumbents, because if you can see the cranks, you can see the front light/reflector.)

I don't believe anyone's actually been prosecuted for lack of pedal reflectors?  Whoever did would surely achieve urban hero status.  See also: Being charged for 'furious cycling'.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: ElyDave on 08 June, 2019, 07:35:35 pm
I have several spare sets of pedal reflectors, let me know if you want some
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Wobbly John on 08 June, 2019, 08:04:14 pm
Is selling without pedals a way round the legislation...?  :demon:
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 June, 2019, 12:01:12 pm
Is selling without pedals a way round the legislation...?  :demon:

May well be.  My Kingcycle did come with a pair of horrid plastic reflectorised pedals, the assumption being presumably that they'd be immediately replaced with Looks, but the other recumbents were pedal-free at the time of purchase.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Kim on 09 June, 2019, 12:06:06 pm
Selling without pedals is surely SOP for recumbents, where foot retention of some kind is expected, and left as an exercise for the purchaser.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 June, 2019, 12:52:55 pm
Selling without pedals is pretty standard for what you might call "serious cyclists' machines" regardless of their configuration.

Of interest to visitors from the Royal Republic of Batavia and Orangeland as well as pretty much everywhere else, bikes (and trikes! and velomobiles!) temporarily imported only have to comply with the Vienna Convention of 1968[?], which only requires front and rear lights, rear reflector and a bell. IIRC, E&OE.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Phil W on 09 June, 2019, 01:23:14 pm
Pedal reflectors were brought into law at a time when lights were crap, frequently fell apart when you hit a bump hard enough, and battery life was non existent.  Never Readys as we used to call them.  You can see that pedal reflectors made sense to the powers that be at the time.  But with modern lighting setups they have long since served their purpose. I do have Amber 3M reflective tape on my cranks on my recumbent. But that will only be picked up from the front where they will see my front light anyway.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Paul H on 09 June, 2019, 03:13:59 pm
Is selling without pedals a way round the legislation...?  :demon:
Used to be, as did selling it as a kit even though only a couple of included parts needed attaching, one of the revisions introduced the term "substantially complete" which changed this.
I can't find a reference, but there's also an exemption to some regulations based on the maximum saddle height, intended to exclude kids bikes though unintentionally it also applies to some recumbents.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Kim on 09 June, 2019, 03:39:30 pm
Pedal reflectors were brought into law at a time when lights were crap, frequently fell apart when you hit a bump hard enough, and battery life was non existent.  Never Readys as we used to call them.  You can see that pedal reflectors made sense to the powers that be at the time.  But with modern lighting setups they have long since served their purpose.

Only if the bikes have modern lighting setups.  Sure, us Cyclists are going to fit proper lights, but you're lucky if the average BSOist fits a green Tesco blinky with a flat battery.  Half the time their main source of illumination is the backlight of their phone.  The pedal reflectors still do their job there.

I'd be in favour of a Dutch style rule on dynamo lighting required at point of sale unless actually a race bike (mainly because it would make decent bike lights much cheaper), but good luck with that.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Phil W on 09 June, 2019, 04:03:22 pm
Is selling without pedals a way round the legislation...?  :demon:
Used to be, as did selling it as a kit even though only a couple of included parts needed attaching, one of the revisions introduced the term "substantially complete" which changed this.
I can't find a reference, but there's also an exemption to some regulations based on the maximum saddle height, intended to exclude kids bikes though unintentionally it also applies to some recumbents.

Well yes, as recumbents do not have saddles (amongst other attributes).
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 June, 2019, 04:08:39 pm
Even with lights fitted, people don't always use them. Though by and large I'd say the majority of bikes I see* around Bristol* are lit nowadays, with anything from off-road constellations to Asdal blinkies.

*Unrepresentative sample alert!
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 June, 2019, 06:34:48 pm
I'd be in favour of a Dutch style rule on dynamo lighting required at point of sale unless actually a race bike (mainly because it would make decent bike lights much cheaper), but good luck with that.

I believe that's a German law, not a Dutch one, and IIRC, it's been changed recently.

J
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Kim on 09 June, 2019, 07:15:59 pm
I'd be in favour of a Dutch style rule on dynamo lighting required at point of sale unless actually a race bike (mainly because it would make decent bike lights much cheaper), but good luck with that.

I believe that's a German law, not a Dutch one, and IIRC, it's been changed recently.

Ah, possibly.  I know it was leading to e-bikes being sold with hub dynamos, which is clearly daft[1].


[1] Even if the system isn't capable of regeneration, an e-bike battery will happily power lighting for a few hours when it reaches the point where it can't run the motor.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 June, 2019, 07:17:35 pm
I don't know about Netherlands but German law allowed battery lights instead of dynamos something like ten years ago. It definitely happened before the rise of the ebike.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: fd3 on 09 June, 2019, 09:40:24 pm
My experience of German compulsory dynamo lights were that they and the dyamo were rather shonky.  I'd be concerned that even with a mass requirement on the purchase the increase in cost of bikes would put some people off and condemn others to BSOs.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Nightmare-1 on 12 June, 2019, 02:45:16 pm
What does "BSO" mean?
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Canardly on 12 June, 2019, 02:55:06 pm
Bike shaped object (usually when referring to very poor quality mass produced bike).
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: ElyDave on 12 June, 2019, 03:20:31 pm
such as

(https://i.imgur.com/SG8jO0L.jpg)
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Nightmare-1 on 12 June, 2019, 04:15:06 pm
Ahh.
Thanks for enlightening me.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Kim on 12 June, 2019, 04:47:35 pm
such as

(https://i.imgur.com/SG8jO0L.jpg)

I wouldn't say that was the archetypical BSO.  Indeed, it looks suspiciously like the decomposing remains of an actual bicycle.

BSOs are the ones purchased from the likes of supermarkets, Sports Direct and Halfrauds[1], and are the transportation sports equipment equivalent of those almost-but-not-quite-copyright-infringing children's toys you find in markets and pound shops: The idea being that to the untrained eye they're indistinguishable from the real thing.

Standard features include 'suspension' with ineffective damping; low-end grip shifters that broke ages ago so the chain is permanently in small:small; an unhooked rear V-brake in order to accommodate the severely-out-of-true wheel; forks may optionally be fitted backwards, and lighting - if present - tends towards the anaemic glow-worm end of the spectrum, often with disregard for the usual conventions on lighting colours for road use.

While their half-life is fairly short, they have wheels and are faster than walking, which makes them the transportation method of choice for the bus-route-impaired budget-conscious Brit.


[1] Who have muddied the waters in recent years by adding proper bicycles to their range, too.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Phil W on 12 June, 2019, 04:57:34 pm
such as

(https://i.imgur.com/SG8jO0L.jpg)

Looks like a wheelie bin to me.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 June, 2019, 04:58:29 pm
An updated dalek, then.
Title: Re: Pedal reflectors
Post by: ElyDave on 12 June, 2019, 05:25:01 pm
I'll dig out the Saudi BSO photo, but it's on a different computer

edit: here it is

(https://i.imgur.com/hnYCMbo.jpg)