Drafting non-entrant e-bikes on an Audax

[Cudzoziemiec]

As soon as you switch that electric assist on, you fail on the human power requirement

So, one reading of that is that if you ride even a portion of a BP on an EAPC then your whole BP ride should not be validated.

That would be my view too (as in #14) and I'd extend that to pre-arranged drafting. But everyone's view?

[Cudzoziemiec]

When I Were A Lad a scrutineer would check over our bikes before we raced to ensure they complied with the regs (no idea if this still happens). It was a very time consuming operation and we would often be at event HQ a couple of hours before the start.

Are orgs going to have to do this for their events in future? I ask because I rode a 200 this spring in which one rider was on an electric assist bike. AFAIK the org was unaware of this. No idea whether the chap finished or whether he was validated but the question remains, how would the organiser know that any particular rider was on an ebike?

Honesty, same as they'd know if you'd jumped into your car parked 10 minutes up the road from the start. Plus the fact that it doesn't really matter – it's hardly like the Olympics. But I wonder whether your e-bike rider was aware they were breaking the rules?

[Ben T]

When I Were A Lad a scrutineer would check over our bikes before we raced to ensure they complied with the regs (no idea if this still happens). It was a very time consuming operation and we would often be at event HQ a couple of hours before the start.

Are orgs going to have to do this for their events in future? I ask because I rode a 200 this spring in which one rider was on an electric assist bike. AFAIK the org was unaware of this. No idea whether the chap finished or whether he was validated but the question remains, how would the organiser know that any particular rider was on an ebike?

Taking the piss surely?
You needed to be at the start 2 hours before the start?  I don't think I would enter a 200 where I had to be there for 6am for an 8am start... 

What exactly was he checking? "Oi! Laddy boy! Your chain's stretched by 0.6% which is more than the recommended 0.5% - disqualified!!"

[quixoticgeek]

As soon as you switch that electric assist on, you fail on the human power requirement

So, one reading of that is that if you ride even a portion of a BP on an EAPC then your whole BP ride should not be validated.

That would be my view too (as in #14) and I'd extend that to pre-arranged drafting. But everyone's view?

Is it ok to prearrange drafting of the big German bloke? He's on a normal bike, but he cuts a great big hole in the wind, and he said I could do it if I buy him a beer at the end. He's doing the same ride, and validating, it's just we've arranged the drafting before the start?

Taking the piss surely?
You needed to be at the start 2 hours before the start?  I don't think I would enter a 200 where I had to be there for 6am for an 8am start... 

What exactly was he checking? "Oi! Laddy boy! Your chain's stretched by 0.6% which is more than the recommended 0.5% - disqualified!!"

"Erm, your headset is lose, your brakes are worn out, and your rear tyre is bald, this bike is unsafe"

And if it's a junior race "Oi, you know you're not allowed a smaller cog than 14 on the back, take this 11-28 off and put a 14-28 on."

J

[JonJo]

When I Were A Lad a scrutineer would check over our bikes before we raced to ensure they complied with the regs (no idea if this still happens). It was a very time consuming operation and we would often be at event HQ a couple of hours before the start.

Are orgs going to have to do this for their events in future? I ask because I rode a 200 this spring in which one rider was on an electric assist bike. AFAIK the org was unaware of this. No idea whether the chap finished or whether he was validated but the question remains, how would the organiser know that any particular rider was on an ebike?

Taking the piss surely?
You needed to be at the start 2 hours before the start?  I don't think I would enter a 200 where I had to be there for 6am for an 8am start... 

What exactly was he checking? "Oi! Laddy boy! Your chain's stretched by 0.6% which is more than the recommended 0.5% - disqualified!!"

Don't want to go too OT but....

No, not taking the piss. Scrutineering was quite rigorous and the regs were extensive. Designed to ensure that your mechanical failure wasn't going to bring down half the bunch.

[grams]

"Erm, your headset is lose, your brakes are worn out, and your rear tyre is bald, this bike is unsafe"

As long as that's followed by the words "good luck!", I'm all for it.

(I recently had the misfortune to have one my bikes judged by some bike shop bros, who viewed everything with any sign of use as in need of urgent replacement. I wouldn't like to encounter those types at 6 am...)

[Paul H]

Is it ok to prearrange drafting of the big German bloke? He's on a normal bike, but he cuts a great big hole in the wind, and he said I could do it if I buy him a beer at the end. He's doing the same ride, and validating, it's just we've arranged the drafting before the start?

Yes, seen it frequently, though never enquired about the nationality or who bought the beer. A stronger rider pulling a less strong one round is all part of it, and there's nothing within the regulations to say otherwise, it's the same with an e bike, though at present they're restricted to BP's.  If they're riding other events they're riding outside the regulations and any rider drafting them is therefore also doing so, if anyone is bothered enough they could inform the organiser who ought to disqualify them.
There's many ways you could ride in a way that could lead to disqualification - I'm reluctant to call it cheating unless someone is being cheated out of something, though maybe taking a place on an event that's oversubscribed might be seen as such - I've done a lot of DIY's with the controls deliberately in towns with train stations, for an easy bail out if required, could easily have collected the PoP's without even taking a bike.

[Ben T]

"Erm, your headset is lose, your brakes are worn out, and your rear tyre is bald, this bike is unsafe"

As long as that's followed by the words "good luck!", I'm all for it.

(I recently had the misfortune to have one my bikes judged by some bike shop bros, who viewed everything with any sign of use as in need of urgent replacement. I wouldn't like to encounter those types at 6 am...)

I wouldn't like to be UP at 6am...

I think that's understandable on a large/special event but on a run of the mill 200 I think market forces would simply drive me to one where I can get there 10 mins before the start.

[Greenbank]

As soon as you switch that electric assist on, you fail on the human power requirement

So, one reading of that is that if you ride even a portion of a BP on an EAPC then your whole BP ride should not be validated.

That would be my view too (as in #14) and I'd extend that to pre-arranged drafting. But everyone's view?

Is it ok to prearrange drafting of the big German bloke? He's on a normal bike, but he cuts a great big hole in the wind, and he said I could do it if I buy him a beer at the end. He's doing the same ride, and validating, it's just we've arranged the drafting before the start?

As long as he's solely using human power and he's on the same event then I don't see why there is a problem with it. That describes how some people have been dragged into Audax (by being dragged round a course by a stronger rider).

If you allow drafting of an e-Bike then it's the slippery slope to allowing drafting a moped, then a scooter, then a car, then a big van, etc.

There's plenty of other unfairness you can take advantage of within the current rules. A DIY 200 in France starting at the top of a big mountain on the edge of the Alps so you get the first ~35km for "free". A one-way point-to-point DIY with a roaring tailwind where you barely have to pedal and have to take breaks to prevent being ahead of time at each control. The point is that they either rely on luck or are a logistical pain in the arse. There are even big differences between a DIY in the flatlands of Lincolnshire compared to an AAA filled monster in Wales or the Peak District or Cornwall, that's just the luck of the draw of where you tend to live.

The one thing you can put a simple limit on is the use/reliance of non-human powered propulsion.

[Kim]

If you allow drafting of an e-Bike then it's the slippery slope to allowing drafting a moped, then a scooter, then a car, then a big van, etc.

But all of these are currently permitted if they happen fortuitously on the road, rather than in the form of 'personal support'.  The line is drawn at arranging for them to be there.

[Greenbank]

If you allow drafting of an e-Bike then it's the slippery slope to allowing drafting a moped, then a scooter, then a car, then a big van, etc.

But all of these are currently permitted if they happen fortuitously on the road, rather than in the form of 'personal support'.  The line is drawn at arranging for them to be there.

Indeed. By arranging that kind of thing in advance it becomes "personal support". It's similar to the various nuanced arguments about that go on about "Trail Magic" in the ultra-cycling events (and its army of armchair lawyer dotwatchers).

Arranging a burly strong German to draft the entire time is not "personal support" if they're also riding the event (within the rules). It may seem an odd distinction but that's just how it is. Anyone else is free to arrange their own strong burly rider to draft (as long as they enter the event) or try to work in a group with any other entrants on the event, or even try to tag along with someone and their strong burly windbreak. I know I've dragged along a fair few people for a considerable portion of an Audax because they were almost broken (and they must be if they're having to draft me) and didn't mind if they didn't take a turn on the front, it doesn't really annoy me. (I've also done my own share of wheelsucking with no chance of doing a turn on the front when I've been fucked.)

[grams]

But all of these are currently permitted if they happen fortuitously on the road, rather than in the form of 'personal support'.  The line is drawn at arranging for them to be there.

"Participants may ride singly or in groups and may pace each other but may not be paced by any other cyclist or motor vehicle"

So drafting of any non-participant whether fortuitous and/or electrified is forbidden.

[Kim]

Is pacing the same as drafting?

[Paul H]

Arranging a burly strong German to draft the entire time is not "personal support" if they're also riding the event (within the rules). It may seem an odd distinction but that's just how it is. Anyone else is free to arrange their own strong burly rider to draft (as long as they enter the event) or try to work in a group with any other entrants on the event, or even try to tag along with someone and their strong burly windbreak. I know I've dragged along a fair few people for a considerable portion of an Audax because they were almost broken (and they must be if they're having to draft me) and didn't mind if they didn't take a turn on the front, it doesn't really annoy me. (I've also done my own share of wheelsucking with no chance of doing a turn on the front when I've been fucked.)

And the difference between that and any argument about e-bikes on an event they've entered is zero.

[grams]

Is pacing the same as drafting?

Well, "pace" is what the person in front does, but otherwise, yes.

[Exit Stage Left]

Is pacing the same as drafting?

No, one is giving, the other is receiving, and it's an Americanism.

[mzjo]

Ok, this is probably in total taking the piss territory, but, if I was to set up a bike to a generator, sit watching youtube and pedalling, until it's put 500Wh into a battery, then start an event on an ebike with that battery, then ride the event. The ride has been done entirely through human effort, it's just some of that effort has been stored from earlier...

AIUI BHPC rules prohibit this (you can use stored energy, but only during the race - I believe flywheels have been tried in the past, and I reckon it's just a matter of time before a supercapcitor-based KERS becomes light enough not to be a complete waste of time).  I don't think AUK have thought of it, but it's clearly against the spirit of 'human power'.

I would have thought that the time used to charge up the battery should be counted in your total ride time. More simply, you should be obliged to start charging your battery at signing on time.

[Greenbank]

Arranging a burly strong German to draft the entire time is not "personal support" if they're also riding the event (within the rules). It may seem an odd distinction but that's just how it is. Anyone else is free to arrange their own strong burly rider to draft (as long as they enter the event) or try to work in a group with any other entrants on the event, or even try to tag along with someone and their strong burly windbreak. I know I've dragged along a fair few people for a considerable portion of an Audax because they were almost broken (and they must be if they're having to draft me) and didn't mind if they didn't take a turn on the front, it doesn't really annoy me. (I've also done my own share of wheelsucking with no chance of doing a turn on the front when I've been fucked.)

And the difference between that and any argument about e-bikes on an event they've entered is zero.

Well, I don't really mind what goes on in BPs given the lax attitudes to validation and timekeeping that already go on (I've no problem with that, I've benefited from it myself at least once) but given EAPC's can't be used in BR/BRM rides the distinction is there for those types of rides.

(In all of this thread I've mostly been talking about EAPCs in BR/BRM, even though the original quote mentioned BPs).

[Kim]

Is pacing the same as drafting?

Well, "pace" is what the person in front does, but otherwise, yes.

Okay.  I don't know about this sporty stuff, so assumed it meant sticking to an agreed speed to facilitate drafting, rather than just being there making a hole in the air.

[Exit Stage Left]

'Drafting' is an Americanism that's been adopted in the UK, as is 'Paceline'. Which derives from 'Pacing'.

https://www.active.com/cycling/articles/riding-in-a-paceline-is-a-basic-cycling-skill

You'll occasionally get someone on an Audax who doesn't mind being on the front of a group constantly, as they are training for a time-trial.

[JPhasma]

surely an ebike isn't going to last all that long on a route anyways ? even the newer ones ridden at very low power (so the rider is pushing pedals on the flats not assisted) can only manage about 100km, and my ebike I had when I was recovering from a knee operation (and which thankfully helped me get into cycling) could only manage about 30miles ?

And tbh what's the prob - many times I've been on an audax and there's groups and clubs there who all work together and move at a good pace while I'm a solo rider and sometimes manage to tag along and work with other riders but most times end up on my lonesome for mostof the ride pottering along. I def don't begrudge the groups, and I can't see me begrudging an ebike rider.

Another thought is- they might be someone who - much likemyself when I was riding mine a couple of years ago - couldn't manage a ride unassisted (for whatever reassons - injury or just not got the strength) but would want to ride along with a friend(s) and have a nice day out - if they're not being validated - is there that much harm with them also having a nice day out and joining in somewhat ? Might even give them confidence to try unassisted in the future if they enjoy the event and their health/abilities improve ?

and even if they were riding something like this - I imagine they'd be needing to draft behind unassisted riders a fair way round just to somehow get round a 200km let alone anything further ?

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/electric-bikes/bianchi-aria-e-road-review/

[Cudzoziemiec]

As soon as you switch that electric assist on, you fail on the human power requirement

So, one reading of that is that if you ride even a portion of a BP on an EAPC then your whole BP ride should not be validated.

That would be my view too (as in #14) and I'd extend that to pre-arranged drafting. But everyone's view?

Is it ok to prearrange drafting of the big German bloke? He's on a normal bike, but he cuts a great big hole in the wind, and he said I could do it if I buy him a beer at the end. He's doing the same ride, and validating, it's just we've arranged the drafting before the start?

That sounds a bit like riding with a strong mate. The key to my mind being you're riding together, both doing the same ride, and if one of you's in front, then the other's behind. But what do you reckon?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Is pacing the same as drafting?

Well, "pace" is what the person in front does, but otherwise, yes.

Okay.  I don't know about this sporty stuff, so assumed it meant sticking to an agreed speed to facilitate drafting, rather than just being there making a hole in the air.

You say you don't know about this sporty stuff but you're the one with a world championship silver medal!

[Kim]

Is pacing the same as drafting?

Well, "pace" is what the person in front does, but otherwise, yes.

Okay.  I don't know about this sporty stuff, so assumed it meant sticking to an agreed speed to facilitate drafting, rather than just being there making a hole in the air.

You say you don't know about this sporty stuff but you're the one with a world championship silver medal!

That was an accident!  (And it's more GCSE pottery than a medal...)

[quixoticgeek]

You'll occasionally get someone on an Audax who doesn't mind being on the front of a group constantly, as they are training for a time-trial.

These days that's me, I'm never near the pointy end, but if someone near the back wants to sit on my wheel, I'm more than happy to toe them round, tho I'd prefer if people asked, rather than sitting on my wheel with a bike that rattles. Took me ages to realise the noise was coming from behind me and not from my rear wheel. I only noticed they were there from my saddle. They were perfect at sitting in my blind spot...

I'm not training for a TT exactly, but for a race where I'm not allowed to draft.

J