Author Topic: Lance wins  (Read 13639 times)


Seineseeker

  • Biting the cherry of existential delight
    • The Art of Pleisure
Re: Lance wins
« Reply #1 on: 03 February, 2012, 11:05:48 pm »
Looks like he was clean all along ;)

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: Lance wins
« Reply #2 on: 03 February, 2012, 11:23:15 pm »
Oh! FFS!

Leave the guy the fuck alone . . .

VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #3 on: 04 February, 2012, 09:01:06 am »
CEO of USADA, Travis Tygart indicated that today's decision by the US Attorney may help his agency pursue Armstrong on doping violations..

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #4 on: 04 February, 2012, 10:26:17 am »
Only in so far as information gathered during the fed investigation may be released over to them, no?

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #5 on: 04 February, 2012, 11:42:34 am »
So it would seem, however they achieved a conviction / ban on a cyclist recently from his colleagues testimony  :o

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #6 on: 05 February, 2012, 07:48:52 am »
Well, it looks like WADA aren't going to leave the guy the fuck alone  ;D

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-head-expects-sharing-of-armstrong-evidence


Re: Lance wins
« Reply #7 on: 05 February, 2012, 09:16:23 am »
Is it just me who isn't surprised that when you create an organisation whose existence is based on finding stuff, they find stuff.

Job as witchfinder, anyone?

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #8 on: 05 February, 2012, 09:52:02 am »
They also don't find stuff. Which is kind of the point really.


It's worth reminding ourselves what the decision to close the Fed case means and what it doesn't mean. It means a decision has been made not to pursue a case of taxpayer's money being used to pay for doping. It does not mean that Armstrong has been declared innocent or exonerated from this, especially as it is being reported that it is the press leaks of evidence that have proved to be the death of this investigation, not a lack of evidence.

It also has no bearing in whether he doped, and was not about that in the first place. Doping is not a federal offence in the USA.  That is a job for the sporting bodies.

In the light of the last few editions of the Tour in which not only the top guys, but pretty much everybody, have been so close together, and those Armstrong style rampages that go on and on just haven't happened, does anybody actually still believe that Armstrong (and everybody else) wasn't brimmed to bursting with doping?


clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Lance wins
« Reply #9 on: 06 February, 2012, 12:05:42 pm »
Some people evidently do believe that, though I'm not sure why.
Getting there...

Andrew

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #10 on: 07 February, 2012, 04:34:56 pm »
 :o The fat lady's just been shot.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/concerns-over-closure-of-federal-investigation-into-armstrong-and-us-postal

Quote
I talked to someone within the investigation but the reason why the case was shut down was due to a one-man decision. The evidence against those involved was absolutely overwhelming. They were going to be charged with a slew of crimes but for reasons unexplained he closed the case saying it wasn't open for discussion,” the source said.


Re: Lance wins
« Reply #11 on: 07 February, 2012, 04:43:03 pm »
Bad for the USA maybe?

Lance wins - or maybe not?
« Reply #12 on: 13 June, 2012, 10:05:05 pm »
:o The fat lady's just been shot.

But it's a just a flesh wound...  ;)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-charged-with-doping-by-usada

Quote
Lance Armstrong has been formally charged with doping by the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) according to the Washington Post. The seven-time Tour de France winner has been banned from competition effective immediately, including triathlons which he has been racing since he retired from pro road cycling in 2011.

The Washington Post reported on a copy of a 15-page letter sent to Lance Armstrong by USADA on Tuesday. In it, the agency alleged that some of Armstrong's blood samples from 2009 and 2010 were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."

USADA are also fingering Johann Bruyneel and Dr. Michele Ferrari, among others:

Quote
The letter accuses not only Armstrong, but also five associates, including three doctors and team manager Johan Bruyneel. It says that they "engaged in a massive doping conspiracy from 1998-2011" and cites the testimony of more than 10 cyclists. Michele Ferrari is one of the named doctors.

In its letter, USADA says Armstrong used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents as well as distributed them and administered them to others.


<lays in supply of popcorn and marshmallows onna stick for viewing racing fora elsewhere>
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Lance wins - or maybe not?
« Reply #13 on: 14 June, 2012, 12:09:44 am »
It says that they "engaged in a massive doping conspiracy from 1998-2011 ...

The Festina affair was in 1998 so that would be an extremely bold or stupid thing to start engaging in a massive doping conspiracy right at that time.

It could be argued that it was sheer chance that Willy Voet was caught by a flying customs checkpoint, which was the catalyst for the scandal breaking that year. How many riders/soigneurs/doctors/directeur sportifs thought at the time "there but for the grace of $DEITY go I"?
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #14 on: 14 June, 2012, 12:32:05 am »
I bet many if not all riders who were doping in 1988 but were not in the Festina team thought that. It is interesting that USADA has enough evidence for every year starting from 1998 until 2011 to now take this to court. We will find out ... in how many years, the speed these things go? I think the lawyers will be the winners.

If the truth eventually comes out, the sport will be a winner, even though it may not feel that way in all the inevitable fallout.

The issue of Armstrong and doping has turned into a festering boil. It needs to be lanced.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: Lance wins
« Reply #15 on: 14 June, 2012, 11:14:12 am »
If the truth eventually comes out,
What you mean is, "When he is finally convicted."
If he did not dope, then it will remain impossible to prove a negative.

I really hope he did not - but you'd be a fule to put money on it.

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #16 on: 14 June, 2012, 11:52:09 am »
I bet many if not all riders who were doping in 1988 but were not in the Festina team thought that. It is interesting that USADA has enough evidence for every year starting from 1998 until 2011 to now take this to court. We will find out ... in how many years, the speed these things go? I think the lawyers will be the winners.

A couple of weeks ago Lance said he wouldn't be contesting any future claims. He knew this was coming. As did Big George apparently...

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Lance wins
« Reply #17 on: 14 June, 2012, 12:26:11 pm »
Top three GC results for the Lance years.  If Lance wasn't doping he was the only one that wasn't.  If Lance is retrospectively stripped of his titles then so is everyone else.  Could be good news for random domestiques who the authorities have lost the test results for, they will probably be declared the victor

year 1999
Lance
Alex Zülle ( later in Festina, done for EPO)
Fernando Escartín

2000
Lance
Jan Ullrich ( later banned for doping )
Joseba Beloki ( cleared in Puerto, one of Heras' super domestiques when Heras was stripped of Vuelta win)

2001
same as 2000

2002
Lance
Joseba Beloki
Raimondas Rumšas (banned straight after Le Tour, police found loads of drugs in wifes car at end of Tour)

2003
Lance
Jan Ulrich
Alexandre Vinokourov (banned during 2007 TdF for blood doping.  Served ban, still riding today)

2004
Lance
Andreas Klöden (accused of blood doping in 2009 but istr it didn't result in a ban)
Ivan Basso  (famously known as "Birillo" in the Puerto docs files.  "Birillo" was his dog)

2005
Lance
Ivan Basso
Jan Ulrich ( was DQ'd  and result "annulled")
Francisco Mancebo ( implicated in Puerto, shame, he was great.  Still riding in non european races )




Re: Lance wins
« Reply #18 on: 14 June, 2012, 12:51:32 pm »
Further to the above post, here's a link to an interesting graphic, showing the top ten for 1999-2005, plus 2010:

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/armstrong1150px.jpg

The thing to note from this diagram is that the riders in black: Admitted to doping or were banned or suspended by a sanctioning group for doping; Suspended or fired by their teams or individually withdrew from races for some connection to doping; Were convicted of doping or paid a fine to settle charges related to it. Riders in black did not necessarily test positive in that particular Tour de France.

Mind you, as someone in the BR thread where I got this from points out:

Quote
Great graphic, but look at some of the "clean" characters.

Escartin - Kelme scandal - Jesus Manzano
Azevedo - in 05 rode for USPS
Zubeldia - Millar named Jesus Losa as his supplier of EPO
Toeschtnig - Holzer called him out as having weird blood values
Perreiro - Rode alongside Hamilton on Phonak. and with the charming Valverde attacked Gilbert for speaking out on dopage
Schleck - Training plans
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #19 on: 14 June, 2012, 10:28:03 pm »
thats a fab graphic.
Doesn't it take us back to the 'everyone doped in those days but from <name a date> we'll regard the greater number of riders as clean?

Perhaps <name a date> should be, er, the 2011 Vuelta? Or maybe this date... or the 2012 Olympics? hahahaha

Actually, I remain gutted that the cheats have managed to, retrospectively, spoil great moments of my bicycle sport watching life.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Lance wins
« Reply #20 on: 14 June, 2012, 10:31:28 pm »
Though you could argue that without their drug-enhanced performances those great moments would have been fewer and lesser. Could, I'm not at all sure about should.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Lance wins
« Reply #21 on: 14 June, 2012, 10:39:08 pm »
I am astounded that anybody is surprised about the majority of top level bike racers (and runners and tennis players and soccer players and...) doping. Enough evidence has been visible for plenty long enough.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #22 on: 14 June, 2012, 10:52:19 pm »
I'm not surprised.
I am gutted though.

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #23 on: 14 June, 2012, 11:59:02 pm »
I'm not surprised.
I am gutted though.

My defence mechanism against being gutted has - especially since the 2006/2007 TdF fusterclucks, has been to view pro road racing in much the same way that some view professional wrestling. Think of it as entertainment rather than sport, and the racing coverage as a travelogue that mysteriously features loads of blokes on bikes.   ;)

Take it too much to heart, and you can run the risk of ending up like some of the characters who haunt the forums on BikeRadar and CyclingNews...   :demon:
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Lance wins
« Reply #24 on: 15 June, 2012, 09:51:22 am »
All professional racing cyclists 'dope'.

They'll take anti-inflammatories. Painkillers. Vitamins. Malto-dextrose. Tuarine.

*Some* of them will take substances that are banned. Some will take substances that are legal - but will be banned in a few years.

I'm not surprised or upset. We expect the near impossible. We expect high speed racing, mountain climbing at lunatic levels of effort. We expect them to pile into barbwire fences, get back on their bikes and continue riding.

Then, when they push the rules, they take something to make it easier, to help them keep going, we shun them. How ridiculous.

The hypocrites are us, not them.
<i>Marmite slave</i>