LEL2017 – what a pity (not the nature of audax)

[geraldc]

There's no qualifying though. The cost of doing a 200, 300, 400 and 600 isn't cheap, in money or time.
Train fares, the cost of a travel lodge, food on the road.

Volunteer to test the route?

[Fidgetbuzz]

As part of the organising team -- I will chip in my pennorth.

2013 was originally planned to be rather smaller than it turned out to be -- and at the original planned level - the demands on volunteers was just about manageable. When demand rocketed and we  were already committed to the price of £219 -- we had no options but to carry on - press gang volunteers etc etc . Riders had a great experience at very low cost - a 5 day fully catered "holiday" for £219 -- show me where else you can get that sort of value.

Come 2017 -- given the demand in 2013 ( and there was unsatisfied demand -- even with 1100 entries )  we felt that to give our foreign riders a fair chance of riding if they wished to we had to up the size of the field -- but as alwyn has pointed out - this means we have to rely on paid for support in areas such as catering and cleaning. So price goes up -- it then is clearly a different experience to  nearly every audax ride in the calendar .

BUT -- if you do not like the style of event and the cost -- then do not enter -- it is as simple as that.

We may have it wrong and end up with egg on our faces -- but we judge that the event will be oversubscribed again.  FINGERS CROSSED says the money man

[The Seldom Killer]

Also I don't like the idea of an expensive early pre-registration, almost two years before the event. PBP pre-registration was a few months before the ride, an it was 30 Euro.

There's a degree of support that it becomes necessary for riders to rely on for a ride of this length. That's ostensibly to account for those little unknownable factors that can occur. The bonk that you didn't know was coming, a sudden unforecast change in the weather that puts you well away from where you expected to be, an unpredicted mechanical failure on a well-serviced and seemingly sound bike... That list could go on and you're welcome to add your own from you experiences of those times when a ride has gone significantly better or worse for you than you thought it would when you set off.

The difference in cost and early pre-registration for LEL might seem at odds with that the way PBP is run. But really it isn't at all. What is massively different is the amount of community involvement that is freely offered along the route. In France that support is freely offered by the communities and people living along the route, in England that support literally needs to be bussed in from a smaller base of willing bodies from across the country.

If you think that the ride should be cheaper with less support laid on by the organiser, thats fine. But you've missed your target by a very long mark. Don't rail at the organiser for trying to optimise the number of entrants, from around the world just to add a layer of complexity to the proceedings, who finish by their own effort. Instead you should rail at those who live and work along the route for not getting themselves involved in the same way that their French counterparts do. I suspect that if alwyn thought for one moment he could depend on even a quarter of that unprompted and unorganised support from the Great British Public, he might breathe a bit easier over making sure that all the riders are catered to at least half as well.

I'm not sure about this notion of audaxing spirit that you have but to my mind it should be a challenge, not a gruelling trial. If you find LEL too well supported then perhaps you might want to turn your attentions to the likes of the Trans Continental Race or the Tour Divide.

[Towelcycler]

Mostly when I ride a brevet it's X rated, with no support and I sleep in a tent.

And I mostly let the tent at home and take only a tarp or sometimes a simple beach shell or none.
Normal life is luxury enough. 

That didn't mean a warm bed isn't a great thing! But its a very different kind of experience  to have the bed and warm food always ready by arriving, or at the end of an adventurous tour.

When I paddled my 4 weeks Seakayak Journey through Scotland some years ago,  I felt like in heaven when I was invited on my way back to Roysth, to stay overnight in a good and warm bed at some local couple from the RWSABC in Greenock. Without all the destitutions the weeks before, you're not able to understand the difference.
Cycling 1400km with these kind of luxury breaks between, isn't the same like without this all inclusive service. With full support it makes it easier, of course, but it also makes it less "complete". (And despite of that, the high costs will hold back many potentially interesting people, like me.  )

Ehhm, by the way, Ian in Greenock (wo invited me), I'm no more sure if it was his father or grandfather, who cycled in 1936 from Greenock all the way on his own to Berlin to watch the Olympic Games. Our Bikes had improved in many ways, but I prefer trying the Challenges like those people did in former times.

That's all I like to say on this topic.

[Towelcycler]

But what did you mean by "let it happen"?

Sorry, english isn't my main language. "Let it happen" is  a fault by thinking in german and writing in english.  Might had been better with: "Think about LEL in this way: ..."
Okay?

[LMT]

The purists out there would argue that most rides that describe themselves as an "audax", aren't in fact an audax at all.

Would "Randonnee" be better? In the UK we (incorrectly) use the terms interchangeably.

I'm not a fan of the whole hair-shirt, bus-stop hotel, garage forecourt thing; a bit of TLC is just fine with me. Audax rides in France are very civilised, as I understand it - no refugee simulation whatsoever.

Add to this I thought the only objective was to get round? I'd take a bit of TLC in the form of a hotel or cooked meal any day of the way. You're cycling 1400k ffs.

[RecumbentMan]

Hi alwyn,

£320 is a fair price for what we offer. You might not like it, but it's certainly not unfair.

That makes LEL a commercial event. Don't get me wrong. Commercial events are not bad at all.

The point is: Even if the event meets audax rules, it loses it's audax nature.

Cheers
Andreas

[jhob]

Hi alwyn,

£320 is a fair price for what we offer. You might not like it, but it's certainly not unfair.

That makes LEL a commercial event. Don't get me wrong. Commercial events are not bad at all.

 The point is: Even if the event meets audax rules, it loses it's audax nature.

Cheers
Andreas

I don't see how that's different to a 200 you pay £6 for.  They both cover their costs and don't make a profit, one is just on a much bigger scale to the other.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Bollocks to 'Audax nature'. The challenge is to ride round quite a long route within the time limits using your legs (or arms).

[RecumbentMan]

Hi LittleWheelsandBig,

The challenge is to ride round quite a long route within the time limits using your legs (or arms).

Yes, and to do it unsupported. Imagine that someone takes your bicycle as soon as you arrive at a control. When you get back to your bike, the bottles are refilled and the helper puts you something to eat into your bags. Is this still audaxing?

Cheers
Andreas

[alwyn]

Cycling 1400km with these kind of luxury breaks between, isn't the same like without this all inclusive service. With full support it makes it easier, of course, but it also makes it less "complete". (And despite of that, the high costs will hold back many potentially interesting people, like me.  )

Luxury? You've not ridden LEL before, have you? £320 does not buy you luxury, it buys you space on an inflatable bed in a sports hall and a school dinner.

Much of the facility I plan to put in place is about running a safe event. Running an event that encourages people to ride these distances, then not providing them with a space to sleep or food when they needed it, would be unsafe. That is not an arrangement I'd like to explain in a coroner's court.

Making the event all inclusive allows us to run a large event in remote areas. It also allows us to  avoid the risk, the time and the hassle of charging people, collecting their money and banking it. It also avoids unpleasant confrontations. What would happen if a rider turned up in Scotland, hungry but with no money? Do I turn them away? Do I feed them myself? Are you going to buy them lunch? I could run a smaller event, but lots of people like a large event like this. Why shouldn't they have their fun? Why should their fun be guided by your values?

It also makes it more equal. As well as making the event all-inclusive we discourage private support. The less you offer on an event, the more they'll make their own arrangements, littering the route with motorhomes and cars.

I'm sure some you have lots of ideas about how to run a bare bones 1200km event. Rather than try to bend our event to fit your ideas about what an audax should be, why not lead by example and create your own?

[alwyn]

Yes, and to do it unsupported. Imagine that someone takes your bicycle as soon as you arrive at a control. When you get back to your bike, the bottles are refilled and the helper puts you something to eat into your bags. Is this still audaxing?

"Unsupported" relates to support along the route, not at controls. The overwhelming majority of audax events in the UK offer support at controls. Why should LEL be different?

[RecumbentMan]

You may want to read this:
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fchristoph-moder.de%2Ffahrrad%2Fbrevets.php&edit-text=

[Whitedown Man]

How strange. Run an event that relies on emotionally blackmailing people into carrying out huge amount of dirty work for free, and everyone's happy.

Pay those people a fair wage and suddenly I'm a neoliberal.

LEL is unsustainable unless I can pay people to cook your meals, clear your rubbish and clean the toilets after you've used them. It's only fair that the riders pay that cost. Asking volunteers to do that work to save riders money is unacceptable.

£229 was far too cheap for LEL2013 and a lot of people suffered to make it work. £320 is a fair price for what we offer. You might not like it, but it's certainly not unfair.

Don't let the naysayers get under your skin - you have a hundred times more positive comments than negative ones.

[Karla]

Hi LittleWheelsandBig,

The challenge is to ride round quite a long route within the time limits using your legs (or arms).

Yes, and to do it unsupported. Imagine that someone takes your bicycle as soon as you arrive at a control. When you get back to your bike, the bottles are refilled and the helper puts you something to eat into your bags. Is this still audaxing?

Cheers
Andreas

That's exactly what happens with the front runners at PBP. 

[Tull924]

You may want to read this:

Nah, can't be bothered

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Recumbent Man, yes it is Audax. As is sleeping in hedges and eating roadkill, as long as you do all the pedalling along the route and stay within time.

How many countries have you Audaxed in, how many long brevets have you finished and how long have you been doing it? There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Tull924]

You will always get some nay-sayer complaining if you don't ride the event on a bike you've built yourself, wearing clothes you've made from cotton you grown, spun and wove yourself, taking all of your food provisions that you have grown yourself (fully organic of course) then you're cheating and it isn't in the spirit.

I personally think riding a recumbent has got to be easier than a traditional bike (just look at all the accusation towards Kurt earlier in the year) so one could argue (BUT I DON'T) that riding a bike that clearly makes the challenge easier, isn't in the spirit.

Any thought's Recumbent Man?

[RecumbentMan]

Hi Phartiphuckborlz,

Imagine that someone takes your bicycle as soon as you arrive at a control. When you get back to your bike, the bottles are refilled and the helper puts you something to eat into your bags. Is this still audaxing?

That's exactly what happens with the front runners at PBP.

I know. And the ACP does not like it to much. This year, the fastest rider had no support at all. ACP is excited about that, because this is audax spirit.

BTW, why not making the full package optional? Riders who do not book it will have to buy food and to find places to sleep where commercial suppliers are available.

And, why 100 Quid for early registration? 30 should be more than enough. For most people it is very difficult to plan 1.7 years ahead.

Cheers
Andreas

[RecumbentMan]

Hi Tull924,

I personally think riding a recumbent has got to be easier than a traditional bike [...] one could argue (BUT I DON'T) that riding a bike that clearly makes the challenge easier, isn't in the spirit.

Any thought's Recumbent Man?

You may chose a bike (i.e. road bike) that clearly makes it more difficult than necessary.

There are discussions if GPS is cheating.

Cheers
Andreas

[jsabine]

You may want to read this:
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fchristoph-moder.de%2Ffahrrad%2Fbrevets.php&edit-text=

OK, I've read it. There's a lot in there about the freedom of cycling, the ability to just ride and appreciate the route and the views and the company.

Not having to worry about where you'll find food or where you might be able to sleep enhances that freedom and that appreciation, IME. And you can still stop under a hedge to view the stars or have a snooze  - no-one's stopping that.

[Whitedown Man]

It needn't be either / or. I prefer X-rated events 207 weeks out of 208, but am as keen as I could possibly be to participate in this iconic event. £320 for four nights b&b - and everything else that goes along with it - isn't outrageous. I'm currently unemployed so it's a massive commitment for me, but if I put £5 a week aside for the next two years I'll be there.

[Bairn Again]

How strange. Run an event that relies on emotionally blackmailing people into carrying out huge amount of dirty work for free, and everyone's happy.

Pay those people a fair wage and suddenly I'm a neoliberal.

LEL is unsustainable unless I can pay people to cook your meals, clear your rubbish and clean the toilets after you've used them. It's only fair that the riders pay that cost. Asking volunteers to do that work to save riders money is unacceptable.

£229 was far too cheap for LEL2013 and a lot of people suffered to make it work. £320 is a fair price for what we offer. You might not like it, but it's certainly not unfair.

I've not always agreed with alwyn on LEL related stuff but on this hes 100% correct. 

The success that was LEL 2013 means that it would now be reasonable for us all to assume that they know what they are doing in respect of 2017. 

[jsabine]

And, why 100 Quid for early registration? 30 should be more than enough. For most people it is very difficult to plan 1.7 years ahead

Because £100 times 300 brings in enough money to pay deposits  required by venues and suppliers, and £30 doesn't..

It might be hard to plan what you're doing in July and August  2017 - but it's a lot harder to plan what 500 staff and 500 volunteers will be doing at 20 different venues to ensure 1500 riders, their supporters, and those staff and volunteers, can eat and sleep and shower when they need to.

[jhob]

And, why 100 Quid for early registration? 30 should be more than enough. For most people it is very difficult to plan 1.7 years ahead.

Presumably that covers some of the up-front costs so that the organisers can start booking things and paying deposits on village halls, catering companies etc.

Are you suggesting that you expect the organisers to go out of pocket to put the event on for the benefit of other people?  If so, you are mad.

Seems you're just being picky for the sake of it now.

You like one type of event, so you go and ride that.  Some of the rest of us like different types of events, we'll ride those.

They're all audaxes.  If you feel the need for bragging rights down the pub feel free to show off just how much more gruelling and tough your ride was than a 'normal' 1400km cycle ride.  I'm sure they'll be impressed.