Author Topic: En*gma  (Read 18700 times)

sam

En*gma
« on: 14 December, 2021, 03:45:42 pm »
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Hang 'Em High


The Blair Witch Project


Brokebottombracket Mountain


Three Coins in the Fountain


"You know me, I'll do anyone a favour… if the money’s right."


On the Beach


Once Upon a Time in America East Sussex

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: En*gma
« Reply #1 on: 14 December, 2021, 09:19:45 pm »
Unlucky.  Is that the one you had built up as a singlespeed?  I think I saw it on a Dun Run one year.

No warranty joy?
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: En*gma
« Reply #2 on: 14 December, 2021, 09:28:17 pm »
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

sam

Re: En*gma
« Reply #3 on: 14 December, 2021, 10:33:29 pm »
Is that the one you had built up as a singlespeed?

Yes. The late Mark Reilly



took my order.

Quote
I think I saw it on a Dun Run one year.

If so, well spotted.

I told my Enigma tale of woe in the medium of meme



and here.

Quote
No warranty joy?

No. We had discussions which didn't go anywhere.

It was sold under their original warranty for, as they put it at the time, "the lifetime of the frame". You can probably spot the problem there.

[Bugger]

https://youtu.be/-fGHuwWMZ1w

They later switched to their current 10 year warranty on titanium. They made me an offer I couldn't accept, especially after three frame failures, the first at only 5 years.

Fortunately I'm not bereft of titanium,



but I did love that bike. Whatever love means.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: En*gma
« Reply #4 on: 15 December, 2021, 07:07:47 am »
I was recently educated on how hard it is to TIG weld titanium without embrittling the weld.  It is a lot more difficult than TIG welding steel and needs far more gas shielding.  The defence industry, with an almost unlimited budget, can manage it.  Small bike manufacturers?  Hmm.

They are probably gambling on most expensive bikes being bought by people who sell them on after a few years and/or don't rack up huge mileages.  Sam is on the tail of the bell curve that gives the manufacturers worries, as are audaxers who buy Ti bikes.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: En*gma
« Reply #5 on: 15 December, 2021, 08:06:23 am »
 :'(   :'(   :'( 

I guess I was lucky with my Ti frame - I got it privately from an LBS mechanic who had received it as compensation after his special-offer Ti bike cracked up. It went over every kind of surface you'd hope not to, including a road in the Pyrenees that had been washed out right down to the hard core, and that on 23mm tyres. Still going, too.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

sam

Re: En*gma
« Reply #6 on: 15 December, 2021, 10:00:51 am »
I'm certainly better educated about all this than I was at the time of my purchase. I can only speculate as to their learning curve.

– Offer "lifetime warranty" because you know it sounds great, and as sole judge of whether the frame has been in some way abused, don't sweat the fine print.

– As you say, count on a certain percentage of people selling it before too long anyway and therefore voiding the warranty

I would suggest, however, that the titanium mystique attracts a higher than normal number of people after their "dream" or "forever" bike. Which is clearly a problem. Perhaps lovers of atomic #22 with such notions should be offered counselling and a gentle nudge out the door rather than being enabled. Speaking of which, check out this guarantee. (Maybe they're good for it. Nice copywriting at any rate. "We'll put things right" is what you want to hear.)


What do you mean time's up?
Entropy's a bitch

– Now that you've got your business on a more sure footing, start tempering people's expectations. Keep your fingers crossed there won't be enough legacy buyers like me to break the bank.

– When we do pop up, try to retroactively manage expectations.

I don't wish to be mysterious, but their treatment of me was more appalling than I can go into. You don't necessarily have to take my word on that to commiserate.


Commiserations

They really should have given me a new frame in the first place, rather than welding it, particularly there (you can see the repair below the final break). Granted it would have been pushing it to expect a lifetime of replacements had there been further failures.

– Discover to your horror this thing called social media. Well, you can always block critics. That'll teach us, eh?

(click to show/hide)

I guess, possibly depending on the manufacturer, people might want to think thrice before buying used ti – though now that you have I wish you many happy miles T42. Vickster across the road (via my detour) too, on a lovely Condor Grand Fondo.

That circa 2000 Litespeed upthread, which covered plenty of terrain in the 11 years before the En*gma came along to bump it down the pecking order,



is still going. Even my el cheapo aluminium (oh the handwringing over alu!) Langster and little Dahon,



veteran of unforgiving London roads, have well outlived it. Now its only occupation is muse. If it wasn't for corona's lockdown on my peregrinations, the two of us would already have made the trip to the big city for even more adventures.


T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: En*gma
« Reply #7 on: 15 December, 2021, 10:26:32 am »
Thank'ee, Sam - although the Ti Warhorse has now been relegated to mule status because advancing decrepitude has made my own frame a bit too short for it.  Last time I had it out was fine, though.

That Dahon you have, does it have the HB welded directly to what they call the "handlepost" without a normal stem?  I bought MrsT one like that a few years ago and neither of us can ride it.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

sam

Re: En*gma
« Reply #8 on: 15 December, 2021, 12:02:00 pm »
Reminds me of how my Bike Friday grew less comfortable over the years. "I didn't change, you did!" it said, or would've if I fancifully gave my bikes voices.

The handlebars on the discontinued Presto Lite bolt directly onto the 'handlepost'.


Any excuse not to wash my bike

Here's a closeup of that critical junction to chill the bones:



One day in London the bolt broke and spilled me onto Cannon Street. (I made it home by transplanting the seatpost lever. A saddle is a luxury anyway.)

The handlepost also later broke and was replaceable, in silver to sow discord.



Those long long CF bars – I love 'em even in the tight squeeze of the red canyons of the city,



as they give me leverage out of the saddle – never inspired confidence, but continue to serve.

Re: En*gma
« Reply #9 on: 15 December, 2021, 01:01:48 pm »
That's a bit grim, Sam.
Reminds me of how I felt when my first Ti frame cracked in more or less the same place as yours.
FWIW I did receive a replacement frame from VN following about 3 months of what felt like pulling teeth, included in which were some eye-wateringly patronising offers.
Would I buy from them again?
Not so sure that I would......

sam

Re: En*gma
« Reply #10 on: 15 December, 2021, 11:35:23 pm »
That's a bit grim[m]

It is a cautionary tale.

VN were on my shortlist at the time, because they did a frame with track ends. I was keen to have something made to measure. It also suited that En*gma were in my neck of the woods.


Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: En*gma
« Reply #11 on: 16 December, 2021, 12:01:12 am »
There's a quote somewhere in the depths of Robin Thorn's online emporium about Ti frames always breaking.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4408.0

Someone has quoted it in full there. There are some choice quotes beneath that post.

Commiserations, Sam.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

sam

Re: En*gma
« Reply #12 on: 16 December, 2021, 12:47:59 am »
There it is. Due to the formatting I thought it was a poem at first.

Titanium frames are fairly light
the problem is the bikes are sh!te
every one that we have known
has left the rider walking home
steel steel steel steel
is real real real real


Jurek's thread was also interesting, and featured a bike so clean it glowed in an almost ethereal way.

This Really, Deeply Unhappy Production certainly would have given me long pause when I was in the acquisition phase, had a time machine been available.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: En*gma
« Reply #13 on: 16 December, 2021, 07:58:50 am »
An LBS mechanic asked me yesterday how I got on with Ti, because of all the breakages.  Sounds like I've been really lucky...
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: En*gma
« Reply #14 on: 16 December, 2021, 08:54:28 am »
I made a haiku:

Titanium frames
Are light and strong with no paint
But they don't last long
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: En*gma
« Reply #15 on: 16 December, 2021, 11:30:10 am »
Alex Moulton was always a firm advocate of steel being best, so as a confirmed Moultoneer I rely on steel, except for my aluminium Bridgestone Moulton. Aluminium is prone to fatigue failure, but I am most unlikely to reach that stage!

I've always regarded Ti as dubious due to the welding difficulties, and don't like the way carbon fibre frames can shatter in accidents. I recall a Tour de France rider hitting a bollard and the frame disappearing in a shower of shards.

Paul

  • L'enfer, c'est les autos.
Re: En*gma
« Reply #16 on: 16 December, 2021, 01:02:40 pm »
I made a haiku:

Titanium frames
Are light and strong with no paint
But they don't last long
Hairline today
Gone tomorrow.
What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: En*gma
« Reply #17 on: 16 December, 2021, 06:25:03 pm »
Having previously seen the cracks, it's not good to have a non-usable lifetime guarantee.  Not worth the paper it wasn't written on.

What I hadn't seen before was one of the previous repairs, which looks hideous, so it's not surprising it failed again.

So far, my 12 year old Planet X badged but actually built by Lynskey Ti bike is OK, but thanks to Sam's cautionary comments, it does get regular inspections.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

sam

Re: En*gma
« Reply #18 on: 17 December, 2021, 09:24:40 am »
The welds often seem to be the problem. If only they could make do without them.



Hairline today
Gone tomorrow.

Not to brag, but I have a full head of titanium.


Yesterday

sam

Re: En*gma
« Reply #19 on: 17 December, 2021, 09:25:04 am »


If you can keep your ti when all about you
   Are cracking theirs and feeling blue...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: En*gma
« Reply #20 on: 17 December, 2021, 09:42:59 am »
You can braze or glue titanium.  Gluing has a bad reputation (ISTR that a few of the Raleigh Dyna-Tech frames came apart) and brazing, while a lot cooler than welding, still has the potential to embrittle the titanium at the joins.  It absorbs oxygen (ok, burns) at well below its melting point.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: En*gma
« Reply #21 on: 17 December, 2021, 10:01:47 am »
I'm glad I hadn't read all that ^^^ when I was hurtling down Alps etc. on mine.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: En*gma
« Reply #22 on: 17 December, 2021, 10:56:01 am »
Last century, there were a number of bonded Ti frames, normally with cast Al lugs. Miyata was another maker but none of them broke through to the mass-market.

There have been a few folk bonding Ti lugs to carbon tubes and vice-versa this century. Theoretically, those combinations should work well compared to Ti/ Al bonded junctions.

The aerospace and nuclear industries produce reliable welded Ti by complete exclusion of atmosphere, often by taping clear plastic bags together, purging with argon, and welding with the torch inside the bag and the welder outside. Bicycles and less critical components use piped fixtures flooding argon inside the tubing and using lots of argon through the torch tip to try to keep oxygen away from the weld pool long enough for it to cool. Contamination by oxygen usually leads to a brittle weld or HAZ that is likely to crack in the future. Gross contamination can be picked up by colour changes in the Ti but minor contamination (errant breeze?) isn’t so obvious.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: En*gma
« Reply #23 on: 17 December, 2021, 01:06:07 pm »
Sounds like bonding with Ti lugs and Ti tubes would be a way to go. The lugs produced in very carefully controlled atmospheres.

I guess Al lugs and Ti tubes had corrosion issues, possibly leading to embrittlement.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: En*gma
« Reply #24 on: 17 December, 2021, 01:19:03 pm »
Thermal expansion coefficient of Al is about 3 x Ti, which doesn’t help with opening poorly bonded gaps and encouraging corrosion. Galvanic corrosion can be a significant issue.

Carbon fibre thermal expansion is more difficult to define as it can vary with direction and exact materials but is perhaps 1/6 that of Ti. There is virtually no galvanic corrosion between them.

Casting and machining Ti lugs is expensive and even 3D printing isn’t cheap.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...