Head teacher closes school over parking issue

[MikeFromLFE]

It seems to have worked pretty well in Nottingham...

It (WPL) has been a spectacular success in Nottingham.

Here in nearby Leicester the city Council have killed off the idea in the last few weeks because of the recession. Car park charges are increasing by quite a bit instead.

I was never convinced by Leicester's proposals because of the limited number of businesses within the city boundary.

There is a huge disparity between how the City and the County view car use which further adds to the tension.

[quixoticgeek]

Yes.  Meanwhile, Stagecoach have removed their return tickets, so you have to buy a travelpass or two singles. I guess they can claim that they haven't raised their prices, but the reality for people who use the bus is different. (Also means that the 2 bus companies that share routes won't accept each other's tickets).

Good. Public transport fixated upon the return ticket is sexist.

Wtf am I on about you ask? For years our transport system has been focussed on commuters who go from home to work, and back to home again. This is inherently done by men. Women are far far more likely to trip chain. Wtf is trip chaining? Home to school to drop the kids off, then to the chemist to pick up a prescription, over to grandma to deliver some food. then onto the office, a day at work, then off to school to collect the kids, to take them to hockey, then take them home. A focusing on return tickets makes this really expensive for those who trip chain. Trip chaining is mostly done by women.

This is why the Dutch OV chipkaart system is so good. 90c to check in, then 10c per km, as long as you check out of one vehicle and back into the next with in 35 mins you don't pay the 90c, so a first journey may be €1.20, then 0.15, then 0.29, etc... My record is keeping that going for well over 4 hours as I run errands around town.

The ticket system is much of the UK is an anachronistic pile of utter shite and needs a massive overhaul.

(My bold) What's one of those, then? There ain't none in Suffolk, as far as I can tell. There are (rapidly vanishing) council subsidies for the private bus companies, but there are no council-owned bus companies.

All of this needs a coordinated approach across a wide area - whether that's the devolved nations, county councils or whatever, and it needs to recognise the very different needs and solutions that apply in rural areas from those that apply in towns and cities. If a council is going to make it difficult for a company/school/hospital to retain on-site parking, it must develop alternatives that work for those who need to get to those places. It's not good enough to say 'sorry, climate' and make it impossible for those organisations to function. That's dictatorship, and will get the appropriate response from the communities affected.

Well there's your problem.

Stop trying to run public transport for profit and focus on public transport that is there to transport the public.

Roads don't need to make a profit. Neither should buses/trams/rail/ferries/cable cars.

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

Another thing, the practice of taking work vehicles home and parking them on residential streets. That should be an absolute no-no. Even in the places I lived in the US, it wasn't legal to park a commercial vehicle on the street.

So what should you do if you're a self-employed builder or similar?

I thought most USians drove quasi-commercial vehicles anyway, like the F150.

Commercial. That's a recreational run-around.

In many states (I can't vouch for all of them), any commercial vehicle typically needs to be registered as such (and you'll have commercial plates). Restrictions generally apply to operation and parking thereof.

How would you define commercial, if you were applying this in the UK? I know a guy who's a painter-decorator, instead of a van he uses a car – a Seat, I think – signwritten with his trading name and so on. So it's commercial but it's a car and, like many builder's vans, serves as his personal car for now-work purposes too.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Yes.  Meanwhile, Stagecoach have removed their return tickets, so you have to buy a travelpass or two singles. I guess they can claim that they haven't raised their prices, but the reality for people who use the bus is different. (Also means that the 2 bus companies that share routes won't accept each other's tickets).

Good. Public transport fixated upon the return ticket is sexist.

Wtf am I on about you ask?

I doubt if any of us are asking that, because we've all read your posts about trip chaining* before. Just as you must be familiar with the phrase, "If I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here". Starting from here, the current UK situation, how do you propose to reach this trip chaining transportational Eden?

[ian]

Another thing, the practice of taking work vehicles home and parking them on residential streets. That should be an absolute no-no. Even in the places I lived in the US, it wasn't legal to park a commercial vehicle on the street.

So what should you do if you're a self-employed builder or similar?

I thought most USians drove quasi-commercial vehicles anyway, like the F150.

Commercial. That's a recreational run-around.

In many states (I can't vouch for all of them), any commercial vehicle typically needs to be registered as such (and you'll have commercial plates). Restrictions generally apply to operation and parking thereof.

How would you define commercial, if you were applying this in the UK? I know a guy who's a painter-decorator, instead of a van he uses a car – a Seat, I think – signwritten with his trading name and so on. So it's commercial but it's a car and, like many builder's vans, serves as his personal car for now-work purposes too.

In the US, it's tied to tax, so you have to use it some percentage of the time for work/commercial activities, then of course, you can claim tax back on your 1040s etc (so it makes sense to properly register commercial vehicles). It's the US though, so laws vary by state, city, and other municipality. Certainly the apartment complex I lived in CT had a no commercial vehicle policy for the parking lots.

[fd3]

As for schools, I don't think any good solution is subsidise schools in posh places by making teachers commute for an hour at their own cost.

I think you are confusing the US where councils set taxes that pay for schools (more taxes better schools) and the UK where teachers are paid a flat rate wherever they live (except that_London and fringes).  If I teach in Leicester or Bradford I am paid the same.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Yes.  Meanwhile, Stagecoach have removed their return tickets, so you have to buy a travelpass or two singles. I guess they can claim that they haven't raised their prices, but the reality for people who use the bus is different. (Also means that the 2 bus companies that share routes won't accept each other's tickets).

Good. Public transport fixated upon the return ticket is sexist.

Wtf am I on about you ask? For years our transport system has been focussed on commuters who go from home to work, and back to home again. This is inherently done by men. Women are far far more likely to trip chain. Wtf is trip chaining? Home to school to drop the kids off, then to the chemist to pick up a prescription, over to grandma to deliver some food. then onto the office, a day at work, then off to school to collect the kids, to take them to hockey, then take them home. A focusing on return tickets makes this really expensive for those who trip chain. Trip chaining is mostly done by women.

This is why the Dutch OV chipkaart system is so good. 90c to check in, then 10c per km, as long as you check out of one vehicle and back into the next with in 35 mins you don't pay the 90c, so a first journey may be €1.20, then 0.15, then 0.29, etc... My record is keeping that going for well over 4 hours as I run errands around town.

The ticket system is much of the UK is an anachronistic pile of utter shite and needs a massive overhaul.

Back when I was a nipper, the Perth city transport system worked on a time-and-zone-based ticketing system.

You bought a ticket in, say, zone 2. That entitled you to use any mode of city transport (bus, train, river ferry) for the next 2.5 hours in zones 1 and 2. Any number of trips.

[PaulF]

Yes.  Meanwhile, Stagecoach have removed their return tickets, so you have to buy a travelpass or two singles. I guess they can claim that they haven't raised their prices, but the reality for people who use the bus is different. (Also means that the 2 bus companies that share routes won't accept each other's tickets).

Last time I checked the Stagecoach “Smartzone” (I think you’re in Oxford?) was cheaper than 2 singles and allows you to use the other bus companies in Oxford.

[ian]

As for schools, I don't think any good solution is subsidise schools in posh places by making teachers commute for an hour at their own cost.

I think you are confusing the US where councils set taxes that pay for schools (more taxes better schools) and the UK where teachers are paid a flat rate wherever they live (except that_London and fringes).  If I teach in Leicester or Bradford I am paid the same.

Basically they're saying hey there, marginally paid school teacher, please be paying to travel a hour twice-a-day at your own expense to educate these nice middle class people in an area you can't afford to live in, thanks.

[Mr Larrington]

Another thing, the practice of taking work vehicles home and parking them on residential streets. That should be an absolute no-no. Even in the places I lived in the US, it wasn't legal to park a commercial vehicle on the street.

So what should you do if you're a self-employed builder or similar?

I thought most USians drove quasi-commercial vehicles anyway, like the F150.

Commercial. That's a recreational run-around.

In many states (I can't vouch for all of them), any commercial vehicle typically needs to be registered as such (and you'll have commercial plates). Restrictions generally apply to operation and parking thereof.

But I am led to understand that you can drive a bus-sized motorhome on a car license (sic) Over There which makes little sense to this Unit.

On this side of the pond someone living near Fort Larrington used to have a full-on Peterbilt 389 6x4 semi truck as his hobby vehicle, but his front garden was large enough to accommodate the thing.

[fd3]

As for schools, I don't think any good solution is subsidise schools in posh places by making teachers commute for an hour at their own cost.

I think you are confusing the US where councils set taxes that pay for schools (more taxes better schools) and the UK where teachers are paid a flat rate wherever they live (except that_London and fringes).  If I teach in Leicester or Bradford I am paid the same.

Basically they're saying hey there, marginally paid school teacher, please be paying to travel a hour twice-a-day at your own expense to educate these nice middle class people in an area you can't afford to live in, thanks.

True, but for varying levels of “they”.  In this case “they” is not the school as 5e school don’t decide how much they will/can pay teachers; “they” is the government and the voters who voted “them” in.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Was the school just shut on whichever Monday it was or has it actually been shut continuously from that Monday?

[ian]

As for schools, I don't think any good solution is subsidise schools in posh places by making teachers commute for an hour at their own cost.

I think you are confusing the US where councils set taxes that pay for schools (more taxes better schools) and the UK where teachers are paid a flat rate wherever they live (except that_London and fringes).  If I teach in Leicester or Bradford I am paid the same.

Basically they're saying hey there, marginally paid school teacher, please be paying to travel a hour twice-a-day at your own expense to educate these nice middle class people in an area you can't afford to live in, thanks.

True, but for varying levels of “they”.  In this case “they” is not the school as 5e school don’t decide how much they will/can pay teachers; “they” is the government and the voters who voted “them” in.

Still, it'd the poorest solution to the problem is to ask teachers to drive for an hour (for which they have to own a car and pay for fuel and the time burden). Of course, this happens to employees all over the country, who are basically subsidizing their employers.

[TheLurker]

And for large companies, with hundreds of employees my simple response i "why are you ok paying for a carpark for your staff, but not ok to pay for a bus for them?" Big employers should be able to subsidise buses...

It's already been done at least once and it worked very, very well.  Back when it was a (relatively small) family owned Co. Weetabix used to have a small fleet of company buses* which would be run at each shift end/start and would pick up / drop off employees close to their homes.  Of course that all stopped when it was sold to corporate asset strippers....

*Rather jolly coaches painted yellow with Weetabix in big letters on the side.  Think something like a giant 12 biscuit packet of Weetabix on wheels.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Amazon "fulfillment centers" run a similar scheme.

[John Stonebridge]

Ditto The Regal Bank of Caledonia at its 3k person office on the outskirts of Edinburgh, via a tie up with Lothian Buses the bus company 90% owned by the local council.  Not that popular though as folk expect to park free of charge around 2 metres from their workplace, but WPL might change that equation soon.

In general - if its a big enough issue any employer (whether a school or otherwise) might have to consider providing a degree of assistance in helping employees reach their workplace (eg free or paid for bus from the nearest railway station / other public transport location / convenient free parking). 

But it needs compromise all round and in my experience when it comes to driving to work compromise is in short supply from both employers and workers. 

[Kim]

A large part of the problem is that managers are often well-paid enough to keep driving regardless.

[Cudzoziemiec]

But that doesn't help if there is nowhere to park, as where all nearby – for whatever values of nearby – parking is residents or short-term only.

[quixoticgeek]

I doubt if any of us are asking that, because we've all read your posts about trip chaining* before. Just as you must be familiar with the phrase, "If I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here". Starting from here, the current UK situation, how do you propose to reach this trip chaining transportational Eden?

First off, I'm genuinely pleased that people have actually read what I post. Thank you!

How would I do this?

a) bring all public transport in the UK into public ownership.
b) Nation wide public transport contactless card. Like oyster, but for the whole country.
c) Unified ticketing policy across the UK. With pricing clearly defined to be based on a simple check in + distance model. Something like 50p to check in then 10p per km that tapers off to eventually 1p per km (exact numbers tbd), capped at £100 per day.
d) make sure that every village is served by buses at a frequency of at least once every 15 mins from 5am until 2am 365.25 days a year.
e) abolish all return tickets and all advance tickets.

That's the starting point at least.

J

[Wowbagger]

I have very limited knowledge of other comparable (pop. 180,000) cities, but Southend has no park & ride scheme. Chelmsford and Norwich, but a fair bit smaller than Southend, have very good schemes. Cambridge does too, also a lot smaller than Southend. There are very few areas of open land two or three miles outside the city centre, but if they closed the airport there would be plenty. Of course, unlike the other cities I've mentioned, you can really only approach Southend from one direction - the west. The other cities have P & R strategically placed all around them.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I doubt if any of us are asking that, because we've all read your posts about trip chaining* before. Just as you must be familiar with the phrase, "If I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here". Starting from here, the current UK situation, how do you propose to reach this trip chaining transportational Eden?

First off, I'm genuinely pleased that people have actually read what I post. Thank you!

How would I do this?

a) bring all public transport in the UK into public ownership.
b) Nation wide public transport contactless card. Like oyster, but for the whole country.
c) Unified ticketing policy across the UK. With pricing clearly defined to be based on a simple check in + distance model. Something like 50p to check in then 10p per km that tapers off to eventually 1p per km (exact numbers tbd), capped at £100 per day.
d) make sure that every village is served by buses at a frequency of at least once every 15 mins from 5am until 2am 365.25 days a year.
e) abolish all return tickets and all advance tickets.

That's the starting point at least.

J

Before I address your roadmap, I see I never got around to elaborating my * after trip chaining. So here it is:

trip chaining*
....
*Trip chaining is an unbroken cycle of hallucinogenic experiences.

[TimC]

How would I do this?

a) bring all public transport in the UK into public ownership.
b) Nation wide public transport contactless card. Like oyster, but for the whole country.
c) Unified ticketing policy across the UK. With pricing clearly defined to be based on a simple check in + distance model. Something like 50p to check in then 10p per km that tapers off to eventually 1p per km (exact numbers tbd), capped at £100 per day.
d) make sure that every village is served by buses at a frequency of at least once every 15 mins from 5am until 2am 365.25 days a year.
e) abolish all return tickets and all advance tickets.

That's the starting point at least.

J

a) It's not going to happen. It's in no party's manifesto, and I doubt anyone wants to take on the staffing and facility provision necessary. Legislation and regulation with subsidy can, on the other hand, achieve much of the control necessary.

b) Absolutely

c) Kind of goes with B, but within reason I think something along these lines can be achieved.

d) ROFL. Get up and ROFL some more. Have you any idea how many villages there are in UK? How small most of them are? And how far some are from the places passengers might want to go? Service levels have to reflect population and demand. Most villages would be very happy with an hourly service from 8 am to 9pm - maybe later, if they are near enough to a town to expect evening visits to bars/cinemas/restaurants. For many villages round me, that could be satisfied by a Ford Galaxy rather than a bus - which, in any case, wouldn't fit down many of our roads. It's a nice idea, but it's not realistic.

e) If B is instigated, this kind of ticketing is redundant for local services - but is probably still relevant for long-distance services.

[Cudzoziemiec]

a) bring all public transport in the UK into public ownership.
b) Nation wide public transport contactless card. Like oyster, but for the whole country.
c) Unified ticketing policy across the UK. With pricing clearly defined to be based on a simple check in + distance model. Something like 50p to check in then 10p per km that tapers off to eventually 1p per km (exact numbers tbd), capped at £100 per day.
d) make sure that every village is served by buses at a frequency of at least once every 15 mins from 5am until 2am 365.25 days a year.
e) abolish all return tickets and all advance tickets.

That's the starting point at least.

J

a) Seems a good idea and would have a lot of support. Has been almost sort of done for rail now, at least until another model of privatisation is found. But it's not a panacea; both public and private ownership can be good and bad.
b) Neat idea, but why not just use bank cards? Like they do in London, with a fare-counting scheme. Most people already have a bank card and those who refuse one are likely to refuse another type of smart card too.
c) Some unification of ticket types is sensible, particularly on rail but also on coaches and local transport. But I'm not sure it makes sense to have the same fare policy across transport modes and for locations from central London to the Scottish Highlands.
d) Highly specific demands risk highly specific implementation. You could end up with buses every 15 minutes which only go to the next village and back. Maybe research travel patterns and cater to them.
e) Advance tickets can be a bit of a pain but an open return is in many ways the conceptual opposite of an advance.

But most of this is still where you want to go, not how you're going to get there.

[Ham]

A large part of the problem is that managers are often well-paid enough to keep driving regardless.

I'll have you know that about 35 years ago I had a well paid job with a fully expensed company car and a parking space in central London, and I mostly used to cycle in and park the bike in the car space.

On reflection this might not prove that much.

[Cudzoziemiec]

There has been talk of a national rail smart card. But it hasn't got anywhere because it wouldn't know where you'd gone, unless perhaps it was fitted with some sort of GPS tracker, in which case it would be bulky and need charging. Many, probably most, train stations don't have barriers so there's no record of where you board or disembark.