Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: cycleman on 01 February, 2018, 01:40:13 pm

Title: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 01 February, 2018, 01:40:13 pm
I am thinking of having the trice converted to E assistance. I can still manage around 7mph however. I am worried about charging while touring and maintenance of the system. I can manage most of my own maintenance at the moment so would I be tyeing myself to expensive maintenance bills which would bankrupt me .
Am I worrying for nothing ? Any thoughts welcome  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Wowbagger on 01 February, 2018, 01:54:18 pm
I would doubt that there would be much of an issue with expensive maintenance, but the conversion won't be cheap.

I suggest asking Auntie Helen how she has got on. I think Adam has also converted his Helios to electric assist.

Our Circe tandem was electric from new, and hasn't had sufficient use for me to give a verdict, other than that it is fun to ride. I still prefer the Thorn tandem though.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: road-runner on 01 February, 2018, 02:17:23 pm
Any thoughts welcome
... the conversion won't be cheap.

My first thought was that if you decide to get the conversion done I will help you with some of the cost. Keep us posted on what you decide to do.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: orienteer on 01 February, 2018, 02:32:36 pm
I have an ARCC e-assist on my Moulton ATB tandem. The crucial element is the electric front hub, no maintenance involved as far as I know. It uses Bosch power tool batteries, and the fast charger is lighter than a spare battery. It recharges in about 30 minutes, so I usually recharge at refreshment stops.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 01 February, 2018, 02:40:03 pm
I reckon a quality electric assist system ought to be maintenance-free, up to the point where:

a) you accidentally damage bits of it
b) batteries lose excessive capacity through old age
c) some incompatibility (eg. with a frame that needs replacing) renders the whole kit obsolete
d) something fails due to bad design

Much fuss is made about battery life, but I reckon it's bad design and accidental damage that's the real issue.  Barakta's Falco console (which I was never impressed by the build quality of) drowned in that monsoon we had at Wing in 2016.  Wiring harnesses are always going to be vulnerable to damage from crashes or manhandling.  That sort of thing.

I think the only way you can reasonably hedge against this sort of thing is to stick to a big-name system you might stand a reasonable chance of obtaining spares for in the medium term, and hope that protects you from the worst of the corner-cutting (typically thermal design or waterproofing) that you get in the low-end conversion kits.  Of course, that also makes it more expensive.


I reckon bottom bracket motors are the way to go with tadpole trikes.  Rear wheel hub motors like barakta's are an easier retrofit, but mean you end up with wiring (that will probably need custom extending) everywhere, loads more weight at the back, and it will limit your gearing options.  I believe that after years of indecision ICE themselves have finally settled on the Shimano STEPS system, which seems like a good decision, albeit one that requires a proprietary boom.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 01 February, 2018, 03:57:48 pm
It is the ice system I am thinking of having fitted .cost is around £2100 assuming that I don't need new transmission fitted I can get £2000 from my trust fund but would have to get my trice to Falmouth . Many thanks for your kind offer road runner I will keep this thread updated  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 01 February, 2018, 04:59:23 pm
Good plan - the STEPS system seems decent (and being Shimano, likely to be around as long as anything will), they've come up with a sensible way to mount the battery, and you can be reasonably sure that ICE won't let you down if things go wrong.

I'm sure a YACFer with a suitable vehicle could be found to get it there, if that's the main issue...
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 01 February, 2018, 05:20:19 pm
I have just spoken to Neil at ice and and he suggests that running a extra battery for touring would be a good idea. That would add £350 to the cost. Jonathan notp wants to spend a week riding based in infracoombe so if I got the trike to Falmouth a bit before he goes I might be able to ride from Falmouth to infrcoombe do the holiday with him and get me and the trike back home at the end of the week. I will have a look at the distances and see if that could work. Getting the trike to Falmouth is probably the most challenging part though  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 01 February, 2018, 09:32:47 pm
STEPS is a neat system but I'm willing to bet I could get a Bafang mid-drive on your standard boom and 2 x 21ah batteries along with any mechanical refurb you need, within your budget and make a butty out of it for mesen. #justsayin'

One trike at a time thobut...  ::-)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 01 February, 2018, 09:34:22 pm
Chris,

I'm happy to connect you up to the mains.

Just saying...    :D   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: vorsprung on 01 February, 2018, 09:49:08 pm
The real question is, are your friends electric?

(https://godsandalcoves.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/numan2.jpg)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 01 February, 2018, 09:51:38 pm
For a minute there I thought we were going to get a very NSFW picture . . .
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 01 February, 2018, 10:14:50 pm
Chris,

I'm happy to connect you up to the mains.

Just saying...    :D   :thumbsup:


You have the most shocking ideas PB :o ;D
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 01 February, 2018, 10:16:46 pm
Yebbut, 'How fast does it go, mister?!'  ;D

WHAT!!!
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 01 February, 2018, 10:31:10 pm
How would the different systems compare torslanda . Neil suggests that a range of 80 miles with two battery s . Also many cycle shop's can diagnose and fix problems with the steps system he tells me. If I can get a reliable system cheaper of course I am interested  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 01 February, 2018, 10:36:09 pm
Other differences aside, different systems will feel different.  You really need to ride them to decide which you prefer.  Not easy, I know...
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Jakob on 01 February, 2018, 11:09:47 pm
Looking at similar. My wife wants a scooter and I'm trying to get her to convert her bike into an E-bike instead. It's about 3-4km to her market place and she'll need to carry some stuff, but a pedal assisted E-bike will enable her to use the bike paths, which would make me a lot more happy than the rather busy road she would otherwise have to use on a scooter.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 01 February, 2018, 11:29:18 pm
I mainly would like assistance to work on hills as I currently manage 9 /10 mph on the flat the steps system I believe is running all the time even down hill s . It would be nice to ave 10 mph but any improvement would be useful . The only electric trikes I have tried have been brakatas which did not like me much and a trice fitted with a electric motor and throttle which was only switched on when needed for hills . I did liked but I have never seen another example of . Short of getting down to Falmouth to try the steps system which is a expensive trip in it's self I am going to have to make decisions based on your forum advice . What could possibly go wrong   ;D
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 02 February, 2018, 12:00:10 am
STEPS senses torque/cadence at the crank to give proportional assistance, and has three overall power levels (four if you count 'OFF'), selectable via the excellent DI2-style thumb buttons.  It certainly doesn't have to provide assistance all the time.

Barakta's Falco system does something similar (sensing torque/cadence at the hub and multiplying that by one of 5 power levels), but since we've tweaked the programming to better suit her needs (basically to minimise the assistance while cruising, allowing for her fairly mashy pedalling style), it needs quite a lot of torque before it actually gives you a significant power boost.  I suspect you couldn't deliver enough power uphill in a high enough gear to make it kick in (there's a programmable minimum speed threshold too, which IIRC we turned up to ensure the motor would stay off during low-speed Silly Sustrans Gate manoeuvres).  I'm sure it could be programmed to be cycleman-friendly, but that means connecting a laptop and the horrible Falco software and spending some time doing laps of a car park changing various parameters.

Anyway, the important thing is that it's perfectly normal to operate these things with the system powered up (so the console is alive and acting as a cycle computer, lighting power[1] is available etc) and the assistance level at zero - changing assistance level is something you'd do to suit the conditions, like you'd change gear.  So you can certainly trundle under your own steam and only turn the assistance on for climbs.

You won't get a throttle-only system any more, because the rules that made that road-legal were deprecated by the harmonised EU regulations, which require a crank-rotation sensor of some kind (so that the power assistance always stops when you stop pedalling, regardless of any other controls).  A throttle to control the power (rather than set levels) with a basic yes/no crank rotation sensor is allowed, but that tends to be the domain of the cheap Chinese kits.

One thought occurs:  If you think your balance would be up to it (and bearing in mind that keeping up speed isn't a problem with a motor), it might be worth trying some upwrongs with the relevant motor systems, to get a feel for their differences.  Well-behaved sit-up-and-beg city bikes are the natural home of electric assistance, and an hour playing with a sympathetic dealer's (I'm thinking 50 Cycles or Cycleheaven or some such) demo models would be very enlightening.


[1] My friend did a test with their STEPS ebike:  When the battery got flat enough that the system shut down under load, there was enough power left to run the DI2 gears and lights for about 3 more hours before they got bored and went to bed.  You can reasonably expect an ebike battery to be able to power the lights and electronics continuously for a couple of weeks if you don't actually use the motor, so there's no need to be paranoid about wasting battery by having the system switched on.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 02 February, 2018, 12:15:50 am
Bafang is a mid-drive conversion which fits to a standard BB shell. Using a pedal assist system and variable power assistance via an LCD display, it requires constant input ie you need to keep the pedals turning for the motor to run. Freewheeling shuts off the motor but most kits are supplied with a thumb throttle for direct assistance which requires no pedalling. This is the kit Auntie Helen fitted to her Orca(?) velomobile.

Two fully charged 14Ah batteries should give a total range of 70-90 miles in optimum conditions. A pair of 21Ah should comfortably achieve 100 miles. They charge off a normal plug socket so anything over 60 miles will require a power hook up to be available at your campsite.

Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 02 February, 2018, 06:53:07 am
I must admit the charging whilst touring does worry me a bit. I think that I fear getting stranded with no power and damaging the battery by not being able to recharge it as soon as it needs it . I do like the potential 100 miles range . If I rode to wing with electric assistance I would probably have to recharge around Northampton . Now I expect that to prove a interesting challenge ::-) ;)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 02 February, 2018, 08:30:58 am
Your problem I guess will be as much about charge time as availability.  I have no idea how long your charge time will be and, I guess that if you have two batteries you'd need to potentially carry two chargers unless your charge time was about 30 minutes.  I think though that your charge time per battery will be in hours.

I'm sure for instance that I could persuade my son who lives in Northampton to let you charge using the outside socket at his place and if you could make Rugby you could charge here of course.  Whether I could put up with yo for six to eight hours though...    ;)

I wonder if we could set up an electric bike socket sharing group.   There is such a thing in the ev community so perhaps we can...   
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: road-runner on 02 February, 2018, 08:47:04 am
YACF:YACP (Yet Another Charging Point)?
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Samuel D on 02 February, 2018, 09:23:50 am
Do any of these e-bikes allow for charging from the bicycle’s motion? I’m thinking mainly of regen on descents (while holding a button down that would act like a brake?), but in emergency situations it may be useful to trickle charge on the flat to enable climbing of the next hill.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Wowbagger on 02 February, 2018, 09:24:38 am
No.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Samuel D on 02 February, 2018, 09:26:14 am
Any good reason for that? Cars do it.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: PhilO on 02 February, 2018, 10:26:15 am
I believe it's generally held to not be worth the complication for the minimal return. However, it's not unknown: Bion-X, for instance, certainly allows re-gen. I recall riding one around Spezi many years ago set to negative-assistance.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: orienteer on 02 February, 2018, 12:54:53 pm
For transport maybe we could arrange to relay you and/or trike to wherever, I'm not far from you. Is it the same trike I took you to near Ely with a few years ago?
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 02 February, 2018, 02:04:53 pm
Do any of these e-bikes allow for charging from the bicycle’s motion? I’m thinking mainly of regen on descents (while holding a button down that would act like a brake?), but in emergency situations it may be useful to trickle charge on the flat to enable climbing of the next hill.

The gearless hub motor ones generally do, because it's literally just a software feature to add.  The range benefit is marginal, because a pedal cycle has so little mass (compared to eg. a car) that after aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance and charging inefficiency there isn't all that much energy to recover.  There's some merit for off-road riding, because a regenerative braking hub can act as a kind of ABS (though the MTB consensus seems to favour the higher torque available from mid-drive motors).

Geared hub motors and anything upstream of the chain's freewheeling mechanism can't regenerate, for obvious reasons.  This is perhaps offset by reduced losses when under human/gravity power.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 02 February, 2018, 02:25:53 pm
I must admit the charging whilst touring does worry me a bit. I think that I fear getting stranded with no power and damaging the battery by not being able to recharge it as soon as it needs it.

They're not going to die if you go a day or two without recharging, though obviously they do prefer to be kept partly charged.  The way it works is the protection circuitry cuts the power when the battery reaches the minimum safe level.  There's still some charge in the battery at that point, and damage happens as that self-discharges over a period of weeks and brings the cell voltage into the region where lasting damage occurs.  Just like a mobile phone battery, in that respect.


Quote
I do like the potential 100 miles range . If I rode to wing with electric assistance I would probably have to recharge around Northampton . Now I expect that to prove a interesting challenge ::-) ;)

There's a song about that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xKjGqefH7U
https://youtu.be/4xKjGqefH7U


Your problem I guess will be as much about charge time as availability.  I have no idea how long your charge time will be and, I guess that if you have two batteries you'd need to potentially carry two chargers unless your charge time was about 30 minutes.  I think though that your charge time per battery will be in hours.

Yes, probably 2-3 hours.  With two chargers you could of course charge two batteries in parallel.  (And you've covered yourself against being stranded by charger failure.)

Power tool batteries charge faster, but they're much smaller, so you'd need a lot of batteries and chargers (which means bulk, if not weight) to get a benefit.  It would be expensive and complicated for not much gain.


Quote
I wonder if we could set up an electric bike socket sharing group.   There is such a thing in the ev community so perhaps we can...

The thought occurs that some of the older public EV charging infrastructure (using BS1363 or Ceeform sockets, which don't communicate with the car) would be suitable for charging an e-bike.  Not that spending a several of hours in some council/hotel car park making sure your trike doesn't get nicked is much fun, or - given the way the payment works on some of the networks - that it would be economically sensible compared to buying lunch at a pub/cafe and using their socket.

(http://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/electric_trike/2017_04_30_15_12_00.sized.jpg)
(No, I didn't - those chargers were all Mennekes.  The trike just posed for the photo while the electric car sucked up electrons from the rapid charger out of shot.)

The further thought occurs that - on the principle that everyone loves a cycle tourist on a mission (especially if you can be a bit cripspirational about it) - you'd probably be able to blag a charge from most bike shops if you asked nicely.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: grams on 02 February, 2018, 02:43:03 pm
Do any of these e-bikes allow for charging from the bicycle’s motion? I’m thinking mainly of regen on descents (while holding a button down that would act like a brake?),

This makes a good argument for why this doesn't make sense for bikes:
https://www.pandaebikes.com/regen-braking-ebikes-worth/

(tl; dr: Most of your energy is spent fighting air resistance, only a tiny fraction is dissipated in the brakes, therefore regenerative braking wouldn't make a significant difference to range)

Quote
but in emergency situations it may be useful to trickle charge on the flat to enable climbing of the next hill.

I'd expect the ratio of flat:hills and the amount of energy you're willing to spend on "trickle charging" may both need to be very high for this to make a significant difference on climbs.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Samuel D on 02 February, 2018, 04:36:07 pm
(tl; dr: Most of your energy is spent fighting air resistance, only a tiny fraction is dissipated in the brakes, therefore regenerative braking wouldn't make a significant difference to range)

It wasn’t tl or even l and I read it, but I see a couple of problems with this line of argument.

First, the purpose of regen on descents would not be to recoup the trivial energy lost to braking but to use your potential energy at the top of a hill to get up the next hill. There are people who have trouble with this. Maybe cycleman on a bad day is one of them? (I don’t know him as others in this thread seem to.)

When descending, you would press the button to slow yourself down to 10 km/h or some other low speed that avoids frittering away most of your potential energy on aerodynamic drag and instead charges the battery enough to climb a substantial portion of the next hill. Even if you have low enough gears to climb any hill comfortably, any reasonably efficient charging system would give you a net gain in speed because it would avoid precisely the aerodynamic waste that the page uses as a reason against regen.

Second, the page assumes regen would only be “worth it” (“it” not being clear) for a 20% range increase. I think a much smaller increase in range would be worth a few lines of code, even if any range increase couldn’t be converted to more useful metres climbed – which it could.

Maybe there are technical hurdles or these benefits are too hard to explain to the typical buyer. Already I hadn’t considered kim’s point about regen being impossible with certain common gearing arrangements. I haven’t had the chance to study one of these bicycles yet.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Auntie Helen on 02 February, 2018, 04:48:52 pm
Cycleman, I have the Bafang option that Torslanda mentioned above and it has been very good.

You can read about it here: http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk/alfie-gets-an-electric-motor/
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 02 February, 2018, 04:51:11 pm
(tl; dr: Most of your energy is spent fighting air resistance, only a tiny fraction is dissipated in the brakes, therefore regenerative braking wouldn't make a significant difference to range)

It wasn’t tl or even l and I read it, but I see a couple of problems with this line of argument.

First, the purpose of regen on descents would not be to recoup the trivial energy lost to braking but to use your potential energy at the top of a hill to get up the next hill.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that on a pedal cycle you use most of the potential energy at the top of the hill to get down the hill.  It's only the fraction used in the brakes (or to being deliberately unaerodynamic) that's available to be recovered.

There is some scope for descending more slowly in order to reduce the amount lost to aerodynamic drag and make it available for regenerative braking (a strategy I've used to good effect while driving an electric car), but it's still not going to get close to breaking even.

Indeed, in rolling terrain, I wouldn't be surprised if improving your aerodynamics with a view to moving as fast as possible at the bottom of the hill, so you can use that momentum to climb the next one, is going to make more effective use of the potential energy than charging and discharging a battery.  (Of course the advantage of regenerative braking is that you don't lose it all when you have to stop for a junction at the bottom of the hill.)  And cycleman's already riding a recumbent.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 02 February, 2018, 05:01:35 pm
Maybe there are technical hurdles or these benefits are too hard to explain to the typical buyer. Already I hadn’t considered kim’s point about regen being impossible with certain common gearing arrangements. I haven’t had the chance to study one of these bicycles yet.

As I say, systems that are mechanically able to do regenerative braking generally already do.  It's free to add and looks good on the marketing materials, even if it doesn't gain you much in the real world. 

Those that can't have other advantages (typically lighter weight and more torque) that are more useful.  You can always use some of the weight saved by a geared motor to carry a larger battery.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Samuel D on 02 February, 2018, 05:14:53 pm
Sure, there is some scope for descending more slowly in order to reduce the amount lost to aerodynamic drag and make it available for regenerative braking (a strategy I've used to good effect while driving an electric car), but it's still not going to get close to breaking even.

You won’t climb a 100 metre hill on the energy regenerated down a 100 m hill, because the perpetual-motion machine remains some way off. In that sense you won’t break even.

However, compared to a cyclist on a non-electric bicycle, you would do even better than “breaking even”. The aerodynamic losses of descending speeds (even 30 or 40 km/h) are so terrible that descending at very low speed while charging a battery with the excess power, and then using the stored energy to power up the next hill, does even better than breaking even: it gives you a net gain in speed over the course. This is true for any moderately efficient regen system. What you lose to charging efficiency you more than gain in avoiding losses to aerodynamic drag on the descent. If the system can cope with your pedalling down the hill at 10 km/h, even better.

Scribble on the back of an envelop if this is not intuitive.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: JennyB on 02 February, 2018, 05:28:29 pm
I must admit the charging whilst touring does worry me a bit. I think that I fear getting stranded with no power and damaging the battery by not being able to recharge it as soon as it needs it.

They're not going to die if you go a day or two without recharging, though obviously they do prefer to be kept partly charged.  The way it works is the protection circuitry cuts the power when the battery reaches the minimum safe level.  There's still some charge in the battery at that point, and damage happens as that self-discharges over a period of weeks and brings the cell voltage into the region where lasting damage occurs.  Just like a mobile phone battery, in that respect.

You'll probably notice a lack of power before the battery gets low, and then the BMS will start to cut out when the voltage goes too low under load, such as on a steep hill. At that stage you may get a few more miles of assistance on the flat, but with a decent meter you will soon learn pretty accurately how far you can go.

 

Quote
I do like the potential 100 miles range . If I rode to wing with electric assistance I would probably have to recharge around Northampton . Now I expect that to prove a interesting challenge ::-) ;)


My preferred technique for recharging during the day is to have the battery and charger pack small enough to be unloaded from the bike and brought inside. I normally recharge whenever I stop to eat at a café. I haven't had a refusal yet. :)



Your problem I guess will be as much about charge time as availability.  I have no idea how long your charge time will be and, I guess that if you have two batteries you'd need to potentially carry two chargers unless your charge time was about 30 minutes.  I think though that your charge time per battery will be in hours.
Quote
Yes, probably 2-3 hours.  With two chargers you could of course charge two batteries in parallel.  (And you've covered yourself against being stranded by charger failure.)

Power tool batteries charge faster, but they're much smaller, so you'd need a lot of batteries and chargers (which means bulk, if not weight) to get a benefit.  It would be expensive and complicated for not much gain.

Mostly you want to charge as slowly as possible, so with two chargers you should only use one for overnight charging. During the day you can set the second charger to bulk charge directly through the output,  bypassing the BMS. You need to keep an eye on it, and unplug before the battery gets too full, as  soon as the BMS lights start flashing. The final balancing phase of the charging cyclé takes the most time, but you can avoid that if you stop early.  If a single charger can charge your battery fully in six hours, then two used together like this can restore charge from 40% to 80% within an hour.

Here's an account of the mad attempt (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55728) I made on the Mille Failte four years ago, to show you what is possible. 

Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 03 February, 2018, 09:05:57 am
Orienteer  , yes it is the same trike  :) . I am happy to accept a lift to events if they are made and am happy to share fuel costs    :) .
So if for instance l I did run out of charge and was unable to recharge for a couple of days I would not damage the battery? .
Aunty Helen  thanks for your link. A very interesting read. I like the fact that the unit can be fitted to the existing boom . I have spram dual drive system fitted to my trice which I hope would allow me keep some nice low gears in the case of running out of charge somewhere. I realize that with the assistance working I would be using the higher end of the range  :) . I am leaning towards the bafang system at the moment. Torslanda may be getting another trike to fettle :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Auntie Helen on 03 February, 2018, 09:51:29 am
I am actually selling my trike as is for 2500€ so that could even be an option!
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: CAMRAMan on 03 February, 2018, 10:00:30 am
Batteries are fairly robust and will withstand a few weeks of being left alone. Longer term and you'd need to top up monthly or so. My Oxygen's 2.5-year-old battery was activated on Tuesday this week after being left standing over a month and had lost 0.1V and read 41.8V.

If you go ahead with the conversion, consider a call to Jimmy at BGA Reworking (https://www.bga-reworking.co.uk/)*. He specialises in one-off battery builds and can probably recommend a high-capacity one for you. His price will be lower than an off-the-shelf option and will be made to suit your application. A 21.5Ah one might do the trick.

* No connection other than being a satisfied customer.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 03 February, 2018, 03:27:22 pm
Any idea what 2500 euro is in real British money? ;) . I might be able to convince the trust fund  :).
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 03 February, 2018, 03:43:32 pm
Any idea what 2500 euro is in real British money? ;) . I might be able to convince the trust fund  :).

Top tip: You can just ask google "2500 EUR in GBP"

Currently £2206.08
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: jsabine on 03 February, 2018, 03:46:13 pm
Any idea what 2500 euro is in real British money? ;) . I might be able to convince the trust fund  :).

Top tip: You can just ask google "2500 EUR in GBP"

Currently £2206.08

I was going to say that www.xe.com (http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=2500&From=EUR&To=GBP) was your friend for all currency conversion queries - it currently reckons £2205.68.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 03 February, 2018, 03:52:05 pm
Thanks both of you  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: CAMRAMan on 03 February, 2018, 05:47:30 pm
I am not sure how the SRAM Dual Drive will cope with the Bafang BB solution. It might be fine, but it depends on how well you time the hub gear changes. Aunty Helen's blog gives a good way to make smoother gear changes. It's a fair way through the passage though. BB drives are harsher on the drivetrain, IME, so bear this in mind if yours is in any way creaky. There are gear sensors fitted to some off-the-shelf ebikes that cut out the power very briefly during gear changes, whether these are available to kits like the Bafang is something worth finding out.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 03 February, 2018, 06:09:32 pm
I am not sure how the SRAM Dual Drive will cope with the Bafang BB solution. It might be fine, but it depends on how well you time the hub gear changes.

I'd imagine the hub gear would stay in high range most of the time the motor was being used, tbh.


Quote
There are gear sensors fitted to some off-the-shelf ebikes that cut out the power very briefly during gear changes, whether these are available to kits like the Bafang is something worth finding out.

The STEPS system when integrated with a DI2 hub (which can give you the option of fully automatic gear changes) seems to manage this fairly well, as long as you're actually using the motor assistance.  It's possible to catch it out if you give it a load of welly, but if you're giving it a load of welly, why are you riding an ebike in the first place?  With the assistance at zero graunchy gear changes are entirely possible if you don't ease off - auto mode is a bit like being the stoker of a tandem in that respect, the changes can take you by surprise until you get to know your pilot's habits.  The STEPS system can be set to beep when it changes gear, so you get a bit of a warning.

I haven't properly ridden a non-DI2 hub-geared cycle with a mid-drive motor to compare, I expect that without some sort of sensor there's potential for quite a lot of wear on the hub unless gear changes are treated with tranquillity (as per Auntie Helen's description of the problem).  Derailleurs seem to cope, as they're better at shifting under load.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 03 February, 2018, 07:01:05 pm
At the moment I tend to use the derailler for the majority of gear changes  . In London and the Thames valley the hub is normally in top in the hills however ...............' :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Butterfly on 03 February, 2018, 09:07:32 pm
I must admit the charging whilst touring does worry me a bit. I think that I fear getting stranded with no power and damaging the battery by not being able to recharge it as soon as it needs it . I do like the potential 100 miles range . If I rode to wing with electric assistance I would probably have to recharge around Northampton . Now I expect that to prove a interesting challenge ::-) ;)

I think most trips, if you use the e-assist only for the harder bits, rather than like a motor bike, wouldn't be a problem unless you are riding up mountains. For a normal trip across middle earth with flat bits and downs as well as ups, you would mostly get more. Charging at campsites will often be quite easy, as they are all now used to being asked to charge mobile phones etc. You could possibly get away with asking wherever you stop for lunch if they would charge it for a bit.

I think it's a great plan and it's the route that I'm hoping to go down myself.  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 04 February, 2018, 07:45:29 am
Due to my normal lack of fund's I have tried to wild camp as much as possible but having use campsite s will be more expense and less trips :-) . On the plus side I will no longer hold forum rides up and therefore have more choice of riding  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: CAMRAMan on 04 February, 2018, 08:22:15 am
Charging at lunch breaks might buy you some time, but the rule of thumb is ten minutes per mile to charge a battery.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: rogerzilla on 04 February, 2018, 10:10:57 am
It's a shame that front-wheel drive isn't practical with a tadpole trike; I suppose you'd need two motors.  Received wisdom is that front-wheel drive is awesome on a bike.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: CAMRAMan on 04 February, 2018, 02:16:55 pm
I've had all three: FWD, RWD and BB drive. All very different bikes, but the rear wheel drive Oxygen I have is by far the best. It makes for a heavy rear end, but the torque from the motor far exceeds that from the converted FWD kit. The BB drive was on an awful BSO, so probably not a fair comparison.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 04 February, 2018, 03:42:08 pm
I've been mulling over whether to convert Frankenhilda to AWD just for the hell of it.  Two motors*, two pedal sensors, two batteries, etc.   Sort of befitting...       

* A front wheel kit and a rear wheel kit.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: CAMRAMan on 04 February, 2018, 03:50:55 pm
If I were you, I'd run a RWD 250W set up, but push 48V through it. All depends on what range you want, but that would go like stink. Your proposal sounds very Heath Robinson and befitting of the bike, but would be heavy! Alternatively, have the AWD set up, but have the FWD on a throttle rather than PAS. and use it as a booster.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 04 February, 2018, 04:04:34 pm
Due to my normal lack of fund's I have tried to wild camp as much as possible but having use campsite s will be more expense and less trips :-)

I think this is a point that many contributors to this thread are unaware of - your unusual financial situation means that the one-off cost of a motor system is affordable, but the cost of things like campsite fees or leisurely pub lunches can be prohibitive.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/12/20/the-anarchists-guide-to-guerilla-ebike-charging/ is probably worth a read, but don't read too much into the technical stuff, as feeble leftpondian electricity and DIY battery packs raise issues that aren't really relevant here.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 05 February, 2018, 03:02:37 pm
You won’t climb a 100 metre hill on the energy regenerated down a 100 m hill, because the perpetual-motion machine remains some way off. In that sense you won’t break even.

However, compared to a cyclist on a non-electric bicycle, you would do even better than “breaking even”. The aerodynamic losses of descending speeds (even 30 or 40 km/h) are so terrible that descending at very low speed while charging a battery with the excess power, and then using the stored energy to power up the next hill, does even better than breaking even: it gives you a net gain in speed over the course. This is true for any moderately efficient regen system. What you lose to charging efficiency you more than gain in avoiding losses to aerodynamic drag on the descent. If the system can cope with your pedalling down the hill at 10 km/h, even better.

Scribble on the back of an envelop if this is not intuitive.
You've not ridden with many recumbent cyclists, have you?
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Jakob on 06 February, 2018, 01:39:38 am
So, pretty much settled on a front hub conversion for my wifes bike.  It's got a Nexus7 rear hub, with a back-pedal brake that she really likes, so replacing that was out of the question. Mid-mount would mean she would have to pedal at all times and she wanted to have the 'throttle only' as a feature.

350w seems ideal, 250w may not be enough to fully pull her up some of the hills, if she's carrying cargo.
There's some real cheap kits out there.
https://www.greenbikekit.com/electric-bike-kit/front/36v-250w-gbk-100f-front-driving-e-bike-kit-with-36v-12ah-bottle-battery.html

$350USD including battery, which almost seems too good to be true, but also cheap enough that it might be worth a punt?.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Samuel D on 06 February, 2018, 09:07:22 am
You've not ridden with many recumbent cyclists, have you?

Correct!

Kim is right that this isn’t the thread for this debate, but if the matter comes up in a future discussion I’ll be happy to debate it. I don’t know much about e-bikes but I have a fair feel for where energy goes when riding a bicycle.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 February, 2018, 09:17:10 am
If 250 watts can lug my fat carcass around on the conversion that I did for a friend it will surely pull Mrs. Jakob and the messages up a 1 in 5 no problem.  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: orienteer on 06 February, 2018, 10:14:13 am
250W is the limit for e-assistance in the UK, otherwise it becomes an electric motorcycle.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 06 February, 2018, 11:09:37 am
So, pretty much settled on a front hub conversion for my wifes bike.  It's got a Nexus7 rear hub, with a back-pedal brake that she really likes, so replacing that was out of the question. Mid-mount would mean she would have to pedal at all times and she wanted to have the 'throttle only' as a feature.

350w seems ideal, 250w may not be enough to fully pull her up some of the hills, if she's carrying cargo.
There's some real cheap kits out there.
https://www.greenbikekit.com/electric-bike-kit/front/36v-250w-gbk-100f-front-driving-e-bike-kit-with-36v-12ah-bottle-battery.html

$350USD including battery, which almost seems too good to be true, but also cheap enough that it might be worth a punt?.

Isn't 350W illegal in Eu and therefore UK? Also, I had the idea that thumb throttles are also illegal excepting for off road use.
Sorry repeating part of what orienteer said above.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 06 February, 2018, 11:23:37 am
I believe Jakob is in Canada
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 February, 2018, 12:03:39 pm
250W is the limit for e-assistance in the UK, otherwise it becomes an electric motorcycle.

Not Northern Ireland at the moment, apparently.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 06 February, 2018, 12:22:57 pm
I believe Jakob is in Canada
Ah. Thank you.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: CAMRAMan on 06 February, 2018, 02:45:49 pm
350w seems ideal, 250w may not be enough to fully pull her up some of the hills, if she's carrying cargo.
There's some real cheap kits out there.
https://www.greenbikekit.com/electric-bike-kit/front/36v-250w-gbk-100f-front-driving-e-bike-kit-with-36v-12ah-bottle-battery.html

$350USD including battery, which almost seems too good to be true, but also cheap enough that it might be worth a punt?.

That seems very cheap. My 17.5Ah battery cost £350. Tread carefully at that price.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Jakob on 06 February, 2018, 06:41:10 pm
I believe Jakob is in Canada
Ah. Thank you.

Yeah. The limits vary depending on province, but here in BC, it's 500w, max 32km/h and it has to have functional pedals. This does mean that many E-scooters will have a barely functional set of pedals on them, so that they can use the bike paths, which is a bit annoying.

Some more googling suggests that that kit above is legit, but it does cost an additional $160 to get shipped. Will order after Chinese New Years.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 07 February, 2018, 01:10:31 pm

Yeah. The limits vary depending on province, but here in BC, it's 500w, max 32km/h and it has to have functional pedals. This does mean that many E-scooters will have a barely functional set of pedals on them, so that they can use the bike paths, which is a bit annoying.
Some more googling suggests that that kit above is legit, but it does cost an additional $160 to get shipped. Will order after Chinese New Years.
When I was setting up the 250W Bafang I think it was possible to set that to 42km/h.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 11 March, 2018, 07:34:34 pm
Torslanda picked up my trice today and when it comes back it should be buzzing with power  :thumbsup: .
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 11 March, 2018, 08:59:21 pm
Yep. You're gonna have a 250w rampant rabbit!
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 11 March, 2018, 09:00:51 pm
I was going to say "that should keep him quiet" but I suspect the opposite will be true...    :demon:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 24 March, 2018, 11:04:30 pm
Well, he should be fairly buzzing in the morning. ;)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 25 March, 2018, 10:16:03 pm
Oh good , a rampant rabbit will attract the girl's . I will be popular at last  :D .
First impression s are that the assist works best when pushing a big gear at a fairly slow cadence so I am using the dual drive in 3rd and using the deraillier  as normal which surprises me as the front chainring is a massive (by my standard s ) 42 teeth . I have been experimenting with the 9 power levels and am finding that level 4 seems to give me around 10mph ave .time will tell what range I can get but so far I still have 3  Out of 4 bar's on the battery   :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 25 March, 2018, 10:25:44 pm
How many miles did you do this aft?
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 25 March, 2018, 10:43:07 pm
I am not sure as when I went to Windsor the trip distance on the battery said I had done 8 miles but it is only 4.5 miles . I had not reset my cycle computer till I went out after tea and I know that I did 15 miles at 10mph then. The battery display reads 41miles at the moment . By the way how do I reset the trip distance on the battery display? .
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 25 March, 2018, 10:59:57 pm
This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN11he-3xyo) gives all the setup info
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 25 March, 2018, 11:09:29 pm
I obviously did something wrong when setting up the display info. Probably programmed the wrong wheel size.

On the plus side, if you're sure about the mileage you did today (and I've no reason to doubt you!) it looks like your batteries are good for around 60 miles between charges . . .
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 26 March, 2018, 09:03:09 am
Thanks ,Torslanda  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: menthel on 26 March, 2018, 10:34:49 am
Hey cycleman, having met you in your excitement pre-electric I am glad to hear it is going so well!
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 26 March, 2018, 09:30:57 pm
Thanks menthel , I did our weekly Tesco run today with the trailer on the back and with a full load of shopping on the trailer I was doing 12mph on the way back  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 26 March, 2018, 09:50:38 pm
Can I just suggest that you don't show Apollo because he'll be tearing up the camping field at Long Itch with his usual levels of unbridled enthusiasm, and, nobody else will get a go!!!   :D   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 26 March, 2018, 10:53:40 pm
Donuts! The camping field will look like the Somme...
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 28 March, 2018, 03:52:18 pm
After a phone call from a VERY happy sounding Cycleman this aft, I'm calling result!

<Proud bike shop owner moment>
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 28 March, 2018, 08:38:39 pm
Good , you should be proud  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Jacomus on 29 March, 2018, 06:46:11 pm
I spotted (and chatted to) a happily electrified cycleman this afternoon. The trike looks very smart.  Hope your ride wasn’t too wet!:thumbsup:

Turns out he didn’t know anything about the weight limit I was dramatically exceeding, but I didn’t get stuck, successfully made my delivery and am now safely ensconced in a nearby layby for the night.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Butterfly on 30 March, 2018, 09:28:07 am
That's brilliant news Cycleman. Well done Torslanda  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 30 March, 2018, 08:03:40 pm
I spotted (and chatted to) a happily electrified cycleman this afternoon. The trike looks very smart.  Hope your ride wasn’t too wet!:thumbsup:

Turns out he didn’t know anything about the weight limit I was dramatically exceeding, but I didn’t get stuck, successfully made my delivery and am now safely ensconced in a nearby layby for the night.
 

Nice to see you jacomus , we were a bit damp by the time we got back but the electrics survived so I am happy . Do you pick up a load to take back up north or run back light ? .  More rain here today so just a mile to the local shop and back. . :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 30 March, 2018, 08:05:46 pm
That's brilliant news Cycleman. Well done Torslanda  :thumbsup:

How is your electric cycle going butterfly ? . : :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Butterfly on 30 March, 2018, 08:26:40 pm
That's brilliant news Cycleman. Well done Torslanda  :thumbsup:

How is your electric cycle going butterfly ? . : :)

Brilliant! I've stopped avoiding going into Kinver because of the hill on the way home  :thumbsup:
I've been along the tow path in both directions out of Kinver and I'm going to go a bit further once the weather dries out a bit. It's fantastic! Even the duck who hates change started to come round to the idea once we zoomed away from a car on a country lane. :D
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 30 March, 2018, 09:42:26 pm
Does this mean that we can expect two electric assists at Long Itch?
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 30 March, 2018, 10:51:16 pm
Possibly three . . .
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Butterfly on 31 March, 2018, 08:51:37 am
Possibly three . . .
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 March, 2018, 01:01:11 pm
I wonder when the tipping point of more assisted and hob will happen.  Barakta is assisted as we know so that's possibly three, potentially 4 if Tors gets spannering!
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 10 April, 2018, 09:32:28 pm
I have been chatting to nobby this evening and he is using the bafang electric assistance system .he says that he has been told by his supplier that the battery display on the control panel is more accurate than the battery led's  .  Torslanda said the battery led's are more accurate . Anyone know who's got it right as I am confused as usual  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 10 April, 2018, 10:01:10 pm
Neither will be right.  They'll just be measuring the system voltage and inferring how much capacity should be left in the battery from that[1], probably with sufficient fudge factors so you don't readily notice them giving false readings as the motor draws current or when the battery temperature changes.  It's like the battery indicator on a mobile phone in that respect.

Even with a proper power meter measuring and integrating the current it's not an exact science.  That'll give you an admirably precise figure for how much energy you've actually used, but it still educated guesswork for what's actually left in the battery.

Like the petrol-o-meter in a car, it's mostly going to be about getting a sense of how big a pinch of salt to apply to the displayed reading.  You may well find that a 'bar' on the control panel's display means something slightly different to an LED on the battery, simply because the designer has chosen different voltages for them to light up at - that doesn't mean either is wrong, though it may make one more useful than the other.  Unlike the petrol-o-meter in the Fiat Of The Apocalypse, it should be reasonably consistent with itself, and the reading shouldn't change when you go round roundabouts :)



[1] Which is quite hard to do well with lithium-ion batteries, as they tend to give more or less the same voltage for ages, before tailing off at the end.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 11 April, 2018, 07:50:40 am
Hi Kim

I've been told that these batteries don't imprint and you can charge them any time whatever the residue power left is, and that they should be allowed to run down completely and recharged to full about every three months.

Is that correct? I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts.

Regards
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 11 April, 2018, 02:30:26 pm
I've been told that these batteries don't imprint and you can charge them any time whatever the residue power left is

This is true.  Memory effect was mostly a NiCad and to a lesser extent NiMH thing.


Quote
and that they should be allowed to run down completely and recharged to full about every three months.

Not an inherent requirement of the battery, but might be needed to calibrate the battery-management electronics (so it knows how to estimate the battery capacity).  If it tells you to do it in the manual, then there's probably a good reason.  If not, I wouldn't bother unless I wanted to measure the total capacity of the battery (which will slowly decline over its lifetime).


The general rule with lithium-ion batteries is that they really don't like to be deeply discharged.  Somewhere in the electronics will be some logic that stops the system drawing power when the battery reaches a minimum safe voltage, so (other than concerns about range or not having power for lights or whatever) you don't have to worry about running them flat in use.  Since there's a small amount of self-discharge and probably quiescent current from the battery management circuits it will continue to discharge below this point if left for long periods (weeks) in a discharged state.  On that basis, the rule of thumb is if in doubt, recharge.  Certainly charge the battery before leaving it unused for long periods.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: mattc on 11 April, 2018, 04:49:43 pm
Li-Ion last much longer if they are only ever partially discharged.

Satellites mostly only use ~5% of total capacity each day before the solar panels charge their cells up again. They go through 365 (or more!) cycles a year, and typically last 5-10 years with negligible degradation (despite quite a hostile environment).

How many people get that kind of life out of the cells in their torches/radios/lights??
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: mattc on 11 April, 2018, 04:54:13 pm
  On that basis, the rule of thumb is if in doubt, recharge.  Certainly charge the battery before leaving it unused for long periods.
I think that last bit isn't QUITE true - they store best when partially discharged (and kept in a kind temperature range - usually cooler than a warm UK house, but check the spec). But certainly it's best to avoid letting them fully discharge  :thumbsup: This is why trickle chargers are good (even though they trigger my knee-jerk "WASTE OF MONEY" reflex!)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: CAMRAMan on 11 April, 2018, 05:04:48 pm
My Oxygen battery is getting on for three years old & has seen better days. I average 16.5MPH on my 8.5-9.5-mile commute and reckon I'm down to less than half a batteryful by the time I get home. That is still very respectable, given the temperature & speed, but not a patch on what I was achieving a couple of years ago. I estimate it has been through 3-400 hundred charging cycles and rarely left unused for more than a couple of weeks.

My other 9-month-old ebike battery - on paper far better - has gone belly up after being left partially charged for a month or so. Probably the BMS has switched it off, as it won't take a charge.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 11 April, 2018, 05:18:41 pm
So how low should I drain the battery to condition it .should I run it right down. If so I have not discharged it enough on the first discharge .  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 11 April, 2018, 05:20:07 pm
So how low should I drain the battery to condition it .should I run it right down. If so I have not discharged it enough on the first discharge .  :)

If it matters, do what it says in the manual, rather than asking us.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 11 April, 2018, 05:29:41 pm
I don't have a manual for the battery s . Hence my query  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: CAMRAMan on 11 April, 2018, 06:30:06 pm
No, don't let it go flat. The usual advice is to wait c.20 mins after a ride and then charge up, although I often just plug it straight in, otherwise I'd forget.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 11 April, 2018, 07:21:26 pm
I've been told that these batteries don't imprint and you can charge them any time whatever the residue power left is

This is true.  Memory effect was mostly a NiCad and to a lesser extent NiMH thing.


Quote
and that they should be allowed to run down completely and recharged to full about every three months.

Not an inherent requirement of the battery, but might be needed to calibrate the battery-management electronics (so it knows how to estimate the battery capacity).  If it tells you to do it in the manual, then there's probably a good reason.  If not, I wouldn't bother unless I wanted to measure the total capacity of the battery (which will slowly decline over its lifetime).


The general rule with lithium-ion batteries is that they really don't like to be deeply discharged.  Somewhere in the electronics will be some logic that stops the system drawing power when the battery reaches a minimum safe voltage, so (other than concerns about range or not having power for lights or whatever) you don't have to worry about running them flat in use.  Since there's a small amount of self-discharge and probably quiescent current from the battery management circuits it will continue to discharge below this point if left for long periods (weeks) in a discharged state.  On that basis, the rule of thumb is if in doubt, recharge.  Certainly charge the battery before leaving it unused for long periods.

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 11 April, 2018, 07:26:18 pm
  On that basis, the rule of thumb is if in doubt, recharge.  Certainly charge the battery before leaving it unused for long periods.
I think that last bit isn't QUITE true - they store best when partially discharged (and kept in a kind temperature range - usually cooler than a warm UK house, but check the spec). But certainly it's best to avoid letting them fully discharge  :thumbsup: This is why trickle chargers are good (even though they trigger my knee-jerk "WASTE OF MONEY" reflex!)

The chap who sold me my motor and battery (Andy at Woosh Cycles, Southend) advised me to discharge the battery about a third if leaving it standing for awhile. A third being about 20 miles of use.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 11 April, 2018, 07:36:21 pm
  On that basis, the rule of thumb is if in doubt, recharge.  Certainly charge the battery before leaving it unused for long periods.
I think that last bit isn't QUITE true - they store best when partially discharged (and kept in a kind temperature range - usually cooler than a warm UK house, but check the spec). But certainly it's best to avoid letting them fully discharge  :thumbsup: This is why trickle chargers are good (even though they trigger my knee-jerk "WASTE OF MONEY" reflex!)

The chap who sold me my motor and battery (Andy at Woosh Cycles, Southend) advised me to discharge the battery about a third if leaving it standing for awhile. A third being about 20 miles of use.

Yes, that's about optimal.  It's the top 20% you want to avoid (although much much less than you want to avoid deep discharge).
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 22 April, 2018, 07:11:54 pm
There is a marked difference between the two batteries I have . One will give me 80 miles comfortably on level 4 and the other seems to struggle by 55/60 miles .  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 22 April, 2018, 10:09:13 pm
I will speak to Cyclotricity tomorrow.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 23 April, 2018, 08:46:19 pm
Does anybody else find it scary that Chris now has an effective range of 130 miles?   :o   :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 24 April, 2018, 09:22:22 am
Draw a 130 mile circle from Windsor and work out if you're safe. Or not . . .

'Tricity were very helpful yesterday. A range of less than 50 miles would be of concern but it appears that the 55-60 mile battery is bang in the performance range they expect.

"80 miles? We should've charged extra for that one!"
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 24 April, 2018, 09:26:14 am
Draw a 130 mile circle from Windsor and work out if you're safe. Or not . . .

<  Google maps ...  >

Aaaaaaarrrggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!    :D
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 24 April, 2018, 07:35:28 pm
 ;D :demon:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Butterfly on 26 April, 2018, 02:08:16 pm
Does anybody else find it scary that Chris now has an effective range of 130 miles?   :o   :)

Chris has always had a range of 130 miles. The power has just cut the time it takes.  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 01 May, 2018, 01:13:14 pm
Some pictures of the electric assistance system   :)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9sgdkvwcKGQdR3Tq8.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 01 May, 2018, 02:21:42 pm
Does anybody else find it scary that Chris now has an effective range of 130 miles?   :o   :)

Not I.
I'm more than 130 miles away as the Chris flies  ;D
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 01 May, 2018, 02:23:45 pm
Some pictures of the electric assistance system   :)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9sgdkvwcKGQdR3Tq8.

Good stuff.  Is that the ICE battery mount, or has someone been molishing?
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 01 May, 2018, 02:24:18 pm
Does anybody else find it scary that Chris now has an effective range of 130 miles?   :o   :)

Chris has always had a range of 130 miles. The power has just cut the time it takes.  :)
Very true. He will only need a power point and just one very large pub lunch rather than two.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 01 May, 2018, 02:25:51 pm
Some pictures of the electric assistance system   :)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9sgdkvwcKGQdR3Tq8.
That battery looks physically bigger than mine, Chris.
Can I see a pic of the rating label, please?
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 01 May, 2018, 03:17:26 pm
Some pictures of the electric assistance system   :)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9sgdkvwcKGQdR3Tq8.

Good stuff.  Is that the ICE battery mount, or has someone been molishing?

That is the genuine factory item. Something like 80 quid - but sometimes the only way to do something is to use what should be there in the first place! It saved quite a bit of head scratching. The bolt spacing was roughly equivalent to a bottle cage so mounting the battery itself was a cinch.

FYI @Nobby. The batteries are supplied by Cyclotricity (https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/parts-and-offers/36v-21ah-frame-battery.html). I've linked to the actual unit supplied, they retail £450 each. In this installation we hard wired the battery carrier to the motor. Soldered joints make for fewer connection problems.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: cycleman on 01 May, 2018, 04:27:48 pm
Just to cheer you up I can still potter along at about 6mph and extend the range as long as it is not to hilly  ;D . I reckon I could get to Wolverhampton without to much trouble ;D
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 01 May, 2018, 04:41:18 pm
FYI @Nobby. The batteries are supplied by Cyclotricity (https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/parts-and-offers/36v-21ah-frame-battery.html). I've linked to the actual unit supplied, they retail £450 each. In this installation we hard wired the battery carrier to the motor. Soldered joints make for fewer connection problems.

Thanks Torslanda that's half as much again as mine in power and price  :)
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Butterfly on 02 May, 2018, 09:22:03 am
FYI @Nobby. The batteries are supplied by Cyclotricity (https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/parts-and-offers/36v-21ah-frame-battery.html). I've linked to the actual unit supplied, they retail £450 each. In this installation we hard wired the battery carrier to the motor. Soldered joints make for fewer connection problems.

Thanks Torslanda that's half as much again as mine in power and price  :)

Bring yours camping in Long itchington next week and we can all compare batteries  :-*

P.S. fancy a cup of tea soon? We're living at clarion's parents' near Kinver.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: nobby on 02 May, 2018, 09:02:44 pm
FYI @Nobby. The batteries are supplied by Cyclotricity (https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/parts-and-offers/36v-21ah-frame-battery.html). I've linked to the actual unit supplied, they retail £450 each. In this installation we hard wired the battery carrier to the motor. Soldered joints make for fewer connection problems.

Thanks Torslanda that's half as much again as mine in power and price  :)

Bring yours camping in Long itchington next week and we can all compare batteries  :-*

P.S. fancy a cup of tea soon? We're living at clarion's parents' near Kinver.

Camping? I'm only just riding. Sixth bout of physio next Monday after falling off 12 weeks ago.
Tea sounds good. Here or there? Home brew or teashop? Give me a bell and we will sort something out.
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 10 May, 2018, 10:23:43 pm
Via PB I've just had some fabulous news. I won't steal Cycleman's thunder but leave it for him to relate.

Let's just say I am sitting here grinning like a loon . . .
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Polar Bear on 10 May, 2018, 10:56:29 pm
If it looks like a loon and it sounds like a loon ...   :demon:   ;D   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Kim on 10 May, 2018, 10:59:55 pm
Has he been naughtily bagging Strava segments?   ;D
Title: Re: Should I go electric ?.
Post by: Torslanda on 10 May, 2018, 11:25:54 pm
Has he been naughtily bagging Strava segments?   ;D

Damn, I hope so!

If it looks like a loon and it sounds like a loon ...   :demon:   ;D   :thumbsup:

It's a loon ~ but ever such a smug one... :smug: