Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 188792 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #175 on: 25 October, 2016, 07:05:53 pm »
Go back to the requirements for obtaining a TUE. Wiggo's medical treatment goes well beyond those requirements. His TUE application should never have been approved at the time as it was not within those rules.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #176 on: 25 October, 2016, 07:14:00 pm »
^

The problem with 'rules' is that we know they are not uniformly applied. We know from prior history that big name stars are heavily favoured.




Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #177 on: 25 October, 2016, 07:16:30 pm »
I have no confidence in UKAD.

Well there you have it then. Let's abandon any evidence based conclusions and just go with trial be media  ::-)

Evidence based on conclusions? Perhaps you meant the opposite...

Would you like some evidence as to my conclusion that UKAD has a lack of desire to catch big name British dopers?

It's all out there if you look.

simonp

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #178 on: 25 October, 2016, 07:57:49 pm »
UKAD went after Lizzie Armitstead. They were overruled by CAS.

However there is a conflict of interest here. It'd be better handled by a supranational body. I was impressed by USADA going so hard after LA, so it can work.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #179 on: 25 October, 2016, 08:13:33 pm »
UKAD went after Lizzie Armitstead. They were overruled by CAS.

However there is a conflict of interest here. It'd be better handled by a supranational body. I was impressed by USADA going so hard after LA, so it can work.

After failing badly with Barry Bonds, I also think that USADA were eager to prove that they were relevant.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #180 on: 25 October, 2016, 08:20:53 pm »
UKAD went after Lizzie Armitstead. They were overruled by CAS.

Yes...and this happened immediately after UKAD had been excoriated by an independent inquiry ordered by the relevant Government minister after an expose of their inaction when presented with evidence of a doping doctor.

Ukad made ‘ghastly mistake’ in not passing on drug allegations

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jul/11/drugs-ukad-mark-bonar?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #181 on: 25 October, 2016, 08:25:26 pm »
It's a shame, because it's completely undermined the value of his wins. Yeah, it was 'legal', but I doubt he would be permitted to do the same thing with the current TUE system.
[my bold] That's completely a matter of personal opinion.

He won under the rules in place at the time. Rules change (not just for drugs); no one loses their titles just cos they weren't wearing a modern helmet, for example.

Obviously. No one is going to take his victories away...but Sky abused a loophole to legally use PED's. If he was sick enough to require those injections, he shouldn't have been racing...so it'll be "Sir" Bradley from now on.
My view is that such a loophole should be looked at and quite possibly tightened. It's quite normal for professional sportsmen to make the most of the rules as they stand - and indeed certain anti-Wiggo posters on this thread have said as much about other rules.

If your opinion is that it's unethical to exploit any particular loophole, that's fair enough. I have a similar view about many rules in many sports (too long to list!). Discussing these is generally part of the fun of watching sport! But they're just personal opinions - the official results will always be what they are. No asterisks for loopholers. Maradonna's goals still stand.



Meanwhile, if you want to get rid of the "Sir" in "Sir Wiggo", you have my vote!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #182 on: 25 October, 2016, 08:40:45 pm »
Maradona's Hand of God goal and game may be officially counted but everybody knows it was a cheat and shouldn't be.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #183 on: 25 October, 2016, 08:51:39 pm »
Not really comparable though. Maradona didn't obtain official permission in advance for a handball.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #184 on: 25 October, 2016, 08:55:22 pm »
Where it might be comparable is in the actions of officials.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #185 on: 25 October, 2016, 10:32:12 pm »
[Y'all  realise that I just threw the Hand of God in for light relief. Right?  :-\  ]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #186 on: 25 October, 2016, 11:05:23 pm »
It's a shame, because it's completely undermined the value of his wins. Yeah, it was 'legal', but I doubt he would be permitted to do the same thing with the current TUE system.
[my bold] That's completely a matter of personal opinion.

He won under the rules in place at the time. Rules change (not just for drugs); no one loses their titles just cos they weren't wearing a modern helmet, for example.

Obviously. No one is going to take his victories away...but Sky abused a loophole to legally use PED's. If he was sick enough to require those injections, he shouldn't have been racing...so it'll be "Sir" Bradley from now on.
My view is that such a loophole should be looked at and quite possibly tightened. It's quite normal for professional sportsmen to make the most of the rules as they stand - and indeed certain anti-Wiggo posters on this thread have said as much about other rules.

If your opinion is that it's unethical to exploit any particular loophole, that's fair enough. I have a similar view about many rules in many sports (too long to list!). Discussing these is generally part of the fun of watching sport! But they're just personal opinions - the official results will always be what they are. No asterisks for loopholers. Maradonna's goals still stand.



Meanwhile, if you want to get rid of the "Sir" in "Sir Wiggo", you have my vote!


1. I'm actually not 'anti-Wiggo', but I have grave concerns about Team Sky and British Cycling, probably because they claim to be cleaner than the competition. Astana don't really concern me, nor Tinkoff-Saxo when they were in action - they never gave the sense of being 'clean'

2. I don't agree that Sky 'exploited a loophole'. Given the nature of the drug prescribed and the situations in which it would usually be used, plus the risks involved, it seems hard to believe that it should be given as a preventative or to someone who is fit to race. Therefore, it falls outside the TUE requirements at the time. Further, if given as a preventative and the condition doesn't materialise, it will be performance enhancing.

All this may die down, like the Nike Oregon Project allegations, but something is seriously amiss - even if only the level of hypocrisy - and it seems mistaken to me, not to admit it.

My comment about Froome was really more focused on Sky, and was also mischievous. However, he had TUEs for Prednisolone, which he has previously acknowledged. What I also find difficult to understand is how he gets down to 4% body fat (as quoted by Dave Brailsford) without losing power in the process.

LWAB is probably the best person to comment on this, and any motor drive that may or may not be doing the rounds.
   
Mike

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #187 on: 26 October, 2016, 07:48:50 am »
Not this little black duck. I've been too many years away from the game to actually know what is happening now, though I still have an enquiring mind and a jaundiced eye.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #188 on: 26 October, 2016, 10:32:09 am »
The way I read it is that Sky took the opportunity presented by Wiggo's exercise-induced asthma and a quite-likely genuine medical issue to obtain the strongest possible medication allowed under the TUE rules extant at the time - even Wiggins said it was to 'level the playing field'. The moral question of whether anyone should be able to medically compensate for an illness in order to compete is arguable - and will be into eternity, no doubt.

However, the fact is what they did was within the rules, declared as happening at the time, and raised no objection from the governing bodies responsible - who had every opportunity to do so had they wished. There was no subterfuge, no attempt to hide what was happening. Therefore, as I see it, there is no reason for Sky or Wiggins to feel under any threat. The rules were subsequently changed, and will no doubt change again. But you can't judge people for actions which were legal and open at the time, but would not now be so.
EXACTLY!

I remember reading an article, from donkey's years ago about the US track team, their training, diet, equipment and prep for olympics.

They used helium in their tyres.
During training they stored blood and reinjected their own red blood cells before competition. It was legal at the time, so all above board.

Absolutely banned now. Talked about as if it were on a par with murdering babies.
Should they give their medals back? OFFS

Have sky been gaming the system? Absolutely.
Have riders been riding bikes made to just within the rules aerodymanics? Of course. They would be fools not to. Is that gaming the system? Of course.
Should they be riding penny farthings made from wrought iron instead? Don't be ridiculous.

Stop being children. Wiggo was managed by professionals who will work to the edge of the rules. His injections were declared and in the rules. Nothing was hidden.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #189 on: 26 October, 2016, 10:34:52 am »
Wiggo's injections were not within the rules, though they were approved by the relevant authority.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #190 on: 26 October, 2016, 11:42:39 am »
The way I read it is that Sky took the opportunity presented by Wiggo's exercise-induced asthma and a quite-likely genuine medical issue to obtain the strongest possible medication allowed under the TUE rules extant at the time - even Wiggins said it was to 'level the playing field'. The moral question of whether anyone should be able to medically compensate for an illness in order to compete is arguable - and will be into eternity, no doubt.

However, the fact is what they did was within the rules, declared as happening at the time, and raised no objection from the governing bodies responsible - who had every opportunity to do so had they wished. There was no subterfuge, no attempt to hide what was happening. Therefore, as I see it, there is no reason for Sky or Wiggins to feel under any threat. The rules were subsequently changed, and will no doubt change again. But you can't judge people for actions which were legal and open at the time, but would not now be so.
EXACTLY!

I remember reading an article, from donkey's years ago about the US track team, their training, diet, equipment and prep for olympics.

They used helium in their tyres.
During training they stored blood and reinjected their own red blood cells before competition. It was legal at the time, so all above board.

Absolutely banned now. Talked about as if it were on a par with murdering babies.
Should they give their medals back? OFFS

Have sky been gaming the system? Absolutely.
Have riders been riding bikes made to just within the rules aerodymanics? Of course. They would be fools not to. Is that gaming the system? Of course.
Should they be riding penny farthings made from wrought iron instead? Don't be ridiculous.

Stop being children. Wiggo was managed by professionals who will work to the edge of the rules. His injections were declared and in the rules. Nothing was hidden.

Not quite true.

Prior to his exposure Wiggins claimed he'd never had an injection. He lied.

Sky lie. Their ZTP PR bullshit now looks even more ridiculous than when it did after they employed doping doctor, Geert Leinders and Froome's "fast track" TUE he needed because he was so poorly.....that he then went on to decimate the Tour de Romandie.


TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #191 on: 26 October, 2016, 12:39:25 pm »
He lied to whom? In a book for his adoring public, ghost-written by some journo or other? That's irrelevant. I am pretty damn sure his TUE will have specified the drugs to be used, the dosage, and the method of administration. That will have been seen by UKAD and the UCI before the event. Sky and Wiggins have no legal resppnsibility to you and me, and they are not required to seek our approval. Their responsibility on the first place is to the legal authorities of the sport, and then to their shareholders. As far as I can see, those responsibilities were discharged properly.

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
  • Mrs Pingu's domestique
    • the Igloo
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #192 on: 26 October, 2016, 12:44:16 pm »
[Y'all  realise that I just threw the Hand of God in for light relief. Right?  :-\  ]

Too soon  ;D

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #193 on: 26 October, 2016, 12:45:34 pm »
Surely it's UKAD who (might) have cheated, not Sky, by approving a TUE that didn't strictly meet the criteria?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #194 on: 26 October, 2016, 01:04:39 pm »
I suspect collusion by sporting bodies is common. It's not really in their interest to expose drug taking, especially by "stars".

Armstrong failed a dope test in his first Tour "win" and the UCI covered it up by giving him a TUE. I guess the big dollar signs were too much to resist.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #195 on: 26 October, 2016, 01:13:37 pm »
He lied to whom? In a book for his adoring public, ghost-written by some journo or other? That's irrelevant.

Its not to me. I know he wont be losing any sleep over me not believing in him any more but equally I wont be buying anything him, Sky, Froome or UCI or UKADA have to say anymore.  He's scratched from my list of cycling heroes.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #196 on: 26 October, 2016, 01:17:28 pm »
But I don't understand why. He and his team were within the rules, and used them to their legal advantage. It may be unpleasant, but I expect all premier sportspeople to do the same. Exploiting the letter of the rules for maximum advantage is - and will always be - part and parcel of professional sport. It's not a game!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #197 on: 26 October, 2016, 01:21:22 pm »
In the very early days of codified football, when professionals and amateurs still played together, there were no sending-offs because it was assumed that any infringement of the rules was accidental.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #198 on: 26 October, 2016, 01:29:57 pm »
There's more to sport than just not breaking any rules. There's also the way, panache, style, method or manner a win is achieved!

Eg, there was limited overs cricket match where the batter need a six from the last ball to win the match, but the bowler rolled the ball along the ground instead of delivering a normal bowl. No rules were broken!

Eg, in the 89 tour, Lemond won by using a piece of equipment that enabled him to rider faster, something that no other rider had, as far as I'm concerned he cheated.

And of course there's the Maradonna hand of god.

And if Armstrong hadn't confessed, he'll be still saying he didn't fail any dope tests!

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #199 on: 26 October, 2016, 01:45:21 pm »
There's more to sport than just not breaking any rules. There's also the way, panache, style, method or manner a win is achieved!


You mean how entertaining it is for the onlooker.  For me it was Sky's strict adherence to team discipline that bored me just a little (and yes, it seemed to be learnt from Armstrong's team).  Give me the unpredictable brilliance of a Pantani anytime.