Sky - gaming the system?

[hubner]

Good point, sport is just entertainment.

Forget about any Olympic ideals or spirit, somebody has to win.

[Exit Stage Left]

It's not just sport though. I like watching the coverage, as it's a narrative which enables us to see landscape from interesting viewpoints. That costs a lot to do, and it's only viable because it sells advertising.

I accept that people like winners, and that advertisers create that pressure to win. In the past that has caused health problems, so it's right that there are sanctions against drug use.

[Karla]

Eg, in the 89 tour, Lemond won by using a piece of equipment that enabled him to rider faster, something that no other rider had, as far as I'm concerned he cheated.

The good news is that you don't decide the rules, so since his use of tribars was officially appealed and allowed at the time, he unquestionably rode and won legally, and changed the sport in the process, just like the first guy to use caliper brakes, spoked wheels, derailleur gears, alu frames, carbon frames, disc wheels, ergoshifters, heart rate monitors and power meters.  Shall we go back to riding penny farthings?

There is one and only one version of the rules: that which is written.  Whether an athlete breaks what some random spectator interprets as the spirit of the rules matters not at all.

[Hot Flatus]

He lied to whom? In a book for his adoring public, ghost-written by some journo or other? That's irrelevant.

Its not to me. I know he wont be losing any sleep over me not believing in him any more but equally I wont be buying anything him, Sky, Froome or UCI or UKADA have to say anymore.  He's scratched from my list of cycling heroes.

It's not to me either.

Whatever happened to Sky being whiter than white? Cleaner than everybody else? It's pretty obvious why Sky refused to join the MPCC

[mattc]

He lied to whom? In a book for his adoring public, ghost-written by some journo or other? That's irrelevant.

Its not to me. I know he wont be losing any sleep over me not believing in him any more but equally I wont be buying anything him, Sky, Froome or UCI or UKADA have to say anymore.  He's scratched from my list of cycling heroes.

It's not to me either.

Whatever happened to Sky being whiter than white? Cleaner than everybody else? It's pretty obvious why Sky refused to join the MPCC

Were you a big Sky/Wiggo fan before? Have you been tearing their posters off the wall? Throwing away signed replica shirts?

[Karla]

He lied to whom? In a book for his adoring public, ghost-written by some journo or other? That's irrelevant.

Its not to me. I know he wont be losing any sleep over me not believing in him any more but equally I wont be buying anything him, Sky, Froome or UCI or UKADA have to say anymore.  He's scratched from my list of cycling heroes.

It's not to me either.

Whatever happened to Sky being whiter than white? Cleaner than everybody else? It's pretty obvious why Sky refused to join the MPCC

They had Sean Yates since the start ...

[sg37409]

He lied to whom? In a book for his adoring public, ghost-written by some journo or other? That's irrelevant.

Its not to me. I know he wont be losing any sleep over me not believing in him any more but equally I wont be buying anything him, Sky, Froome or UCI or UKADA have to say anymore.  He's scratched from my list of cycling heroes.

It's not to me either.

Whatever happened to Sky being whiter than white? Cleaner than everybody else? It's pretty obvious why Sky refused to join the MPCC

Were you a big Sky/Wiggo fan before? Have you been tearing their posters off the wall? Throwing away signed replica shirts?

I was a big Wiggo fan. No posters, but I bought the royal mail 1st day cover of his gold medal
I feel very much misled by the "no injections" and the claims of zero tolerance to anything other than whiter than white.

[simonp]

I've shaved off my sideburns, pissed on them, burned them, then used them as cat litter.

[Hot Flatus]

He lied to whom? In a book for his adoring public, ghost-written by some journo or other? That's irrelevant.

Its not to me. I know he wont be losing any sleep over me not believing in him any more but equally I wont be buying anything him, Sky, Froome or UCI or UKADA have to say anymore.  He's scratched from my list of cycling heroes.

It's not to me either.

Whatever happened to Sky being whiter than white? Cleaner than everybody else? It's pretty obvious why Sky refused to join the MPCC

Were you a big Sky/Wiggo fan before? Have you been tearing their posters off the wall? Throwing away signed replica shirts?

Nope.

I never bought into their bullshit. It was good to have a British team, despite doing nothing for nearly 2 seasons. Then hiring the guy that ran the team doping system at Rabobank, and all of sudden taking 2nd and 3rd on the Vuelta and then dominating cycling a few months later looking exactly like USPS was just a little too much in the way of suspension of disbelief.

I guess you are just sorry I "don't believe in miracles".

[Ian H]

I've shaved off my sideburns, pissed on them, burned them, then used them as cat litter.

That should ensure you're not caught by random testing.

[Hot Flatus]

He lied to whom? In a book for his adoring public, ghost-written by some journo or other? That's irrelevant.

Its not to me. I know he wont be losing any sleep over me not believing in him any more but equally I wont be buying anything him, Sky, Froome or UCI or UKADA have to say anymore.  He's scratched from my list of cycling heroes.

It's not to me either.

Whatever happened to Sky being whiter than white? Cleaner than everybody else? It's pretty obvious why Sky refused to join the MPCC

They had Sean Yates since the start ...

Yep....and in a sense I think it's inevitable that if you are going to employ experienced top level ex-pros as DSs then they are likely to be ex-dopers. I don't see that as an issue.

What I do see as an issue is employing a doping doctor...when other doctors are available, and when another member of your staff was on the team he doped at the same time as he was doping them. And then, when challenged, to try an use the tragic death of another member of staff as a justification for the hiring of said doctor.

And then, despite all the holier than thou bullshit, not joining the MPCC, because doing so would have meant not being able to abuse cortisone.

[Jakob]

But I don't understand why. He and his team were within the rules, and used them to their legal advantage.

Only if you believe that the injection was actually necessary to treat an acute, serious medical problem.  I think it's quite clear that it wasn't.  If prednisolone or similar less aggressive drugs wouldn't have been enough, then he was sick enough not to be able to get on a bike.

[TimC]

Nope. The drug, the dose, and the method of administration will have been proposed and agreed by the authorities prior to being approved. Whether or not it was best medical practice is between the UCI and Sky's doctor, and is not something any of us are qualified to judge because we weren't privy to the medical consultations. All of this hand-wringing and backseat driving of Sky is, frankly, emotional bollocks.

The TUE was legal and approved prior to administration. Whatever you think of the drugs used, the personalities involved, or the ethics of the rules that applied at the time, it was legal. That is the only relevant metric.

[Hot Flatus]

No it isn't.

You can ask yourself if it was ethical, and the answer is a resounding no. It's very obvious that Sky and Wiggins have abused the TUE process so that they can use PEDs.

There is more to this than whether or not it conformed to rules, which is why Wiggins has reputation is gone. He knows it too.

[mattc]

Nope. The drug, the dose, and the method of administration will have been proposed and agreed by the authorities prior to being approved. Whether or not it was best medical practice is between the UCI and Sky's doctor, and is not something any of us are qualified to judge because we weren't privy to the medical consultations. All of this hand-wringing and backseat driving of Sky is, frankly, emotional bollocks.

The TUE was legal and approved prior to administration. Whatever you think of the drugs used, the personalities involved, or the ethics of the rules that applied at the time, it was legal. That is the only relevant metric.

Agreed.

Some people seem to think that you can have perfect, ethical rules around drug use; well the bad news is that you can't. I'm not happy about this, as I'm one of those pathetic sports fans who does judge athletes on their ethics, supporting the "nice guy" even when he loses to the ruthless cad. But it's fact.

For sport to function at all you need arbitrary rules. How much is a "normal" level of testosterone? What drugs are "necessary" for a sick athlete? When does a painkiller become a PED?

The rules will always be a necessary compromise; it's reasonable to debate improvements, but it's absurd to criticise the athletes who figure out how to push the rules most effectively.

And the cynical "i'm not as naive as some" view is no help to anyone. Sure, riders are cheating right now, and getting away with it. We all know this! So all that matters is the current rules; if you find a loophole, you aren't cheating. If you push right upto the limits, you aren't cheating.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

If anything is allowed, as long as the governing body signs off on it (even if it is against their own rules), then brown paper bags full of money become very useful.

[mattc]

If anything is allowed, as long as the governing body signs off on it (even if it is against their own rules), then brown paper bags full of money become very useful.

Again, I'm sure this happens (it happens at FIFA and most other big money sports, so why not cycling, and why not now?).

But it's just like drugs offences - noone can prove a negative. It's just mud-slinging without proof; what would you accept as proof that no brown paper bags were involved??

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't expect anyone to take it seriously without evidence. There's just no point. BTW: just accusing whoever wins doesn't count as evidence

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It might be interesting to do a full investigation and financial audit of the UCI doctor who signed off Wiggo's TUEs.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've shaved off my sideburns, pissed on them, burned them, then used them as cat litter.

Just as long as you don't feed them to the chickens.

[TimC]

It might be interesting to do a full investigation and financial audit of the UCI doctor who signed off Wiggo's TUEs.

It might. If you can fund it, and can produce substantive evidence from your investigation, then you have a case. Suspicion and accusation is not a case.

This is not like using illegal methods and drugs to produce an apparently legal result, as was commonly the case with EPO use. Everything about this was declared, open for official examination, and approved at the time. I'm no more impressed by it than Matt is, but I recognise the line between legal and illegal, and that legality - however marginally moral - is the only line that counts.

I'm sure most of us (and all professional athletes) recognise the benefits of caffeine for cycling. In some athletes, the benefits are startling. Perfectly legal - at the moment - and any team not studying and employing the benefits of caffeine are missing a trick and selling themselves short. Yes, there are medical risks with overuse, but how many of us drink too much coffee or tea (not to mention alcohol) and accept the risk? It's legal. It may not be wise, but it's legal. And, in the coffee and alcohol case, we like the effects. So, even with no financial or competitive pressure, we do it anyway.

[trekker12]

Wiggins has reputation is gone. He knows it too.

So why is he spending this week riding round a sold out London Velodrome with the whole crowd cheering when he takes a lap?

If he thinks his reputation has gone I suspect he would quietly slip out the back door and stick his fingers up to all of us. Instead he's fulfilling a commitment presumably made to the London six day some time ago and is carrying on because as far as he is concerned he's not done anything wrong.

[mattc]

Wiggins has reputation is gone. He knows it too.

So why is he spending this week riding round a sold out London Velodrome with the whole crowd cheering when he takes a lap?

If he thinks his reputation has gone I suspect he would quietly slip out the back door and stick his fingers up to all of us. Instead he's fulfilling a commitment presumably made to the London six day some time ago and is carrying on because as far as he is concerned he's not done anything wrong.

I have seen a ticket for Saturday on sale this morning; no doubt they have read this thread and it has opened their eyes!

[Hot Flatus]

Wiggins has reputation is gone. He knows it too.

So why is he spending this week riding round a sold out London Velodrome with the whole crowd cheering when he takes a lap?

If he thinks his reputation has gone I suspect he would quietly slip out the back door and stick his fingers up to all of us. Instead he's fulfilling a commitment presumably made to the London six day some time ago and is carrying on because as far as he is concerned he's not done anything wrong.

Most people are blindly flag-waving and have little clue as the back story and the details. How many of the know about the history of Kenacort use in cycling or have even heard of Jorg Jackshe, let alone what he said?

There's a fair chunk of cognitive dissonance  going on too.

It's the Lance Armstrong syndrome all over again.

[αdαmsκι]

Tho Wiggns did seem to unexpectedly DNS the Abu Dhabi Tour, possibly to avoid the press. One report is here: http://cyclingtips.com/2016/10/abu-dhabi-tour-organisers-insist-that-wiggins-withdrawal-from-race-is-unexpected/

[trekker12]

Wiggins has reputation is gone. He knows it too.

So why is he spending this week riding round a sold out London Velodrome with the whole crowd cheering when he takes a lap?

If he thinks his reputation has gone I suspect he would quietly slip out the back door and stick his fingers up to all of us. Instead he's fulfilling a commitment presumably made to the London six day some time ago and is carrying on because as far as he is concerned he's not done anything wrong.

Most people are blindly flag-waving and have little clue as the back story and the details. How many of the know about the history of Kenacort use in cycling or have even heard of Jorg Jackshe, let alone what he said?

There's a fair chunk of cognitive dissonance  going on too.

It's the Lance Armstrong syndrome all over again.

So his reputation isn't in tatters then