Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 189087 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #275 on: 28 October, 2016, 07:11:22 pm »
You have misquoted me, I didn't say that Lemond called Sky's training methods bollocks. I said he called marginal gains bollocks.

Here is what Lemond said:

"Others make us believe they are ahead of the best scientists, the famous Team Sky marginal gains! What bollocks! There are no new methodologies. That is wrong. In this area too, miracles do not exist."

He is calling the concept of 'marginal gains', bollocks. The key word here is 'gains'. It's an explanation for why Team Sky riders go faster, and it doest involve doping.

It's ambiguous, but I'm inclined to agree that Lemond is accusing Sky of doping. The problem here is that he - like Flatus - is assuming that any gains in performance over time must be down to improved undetected doping. I dont think this holds water.

Mediocre domestic UK time-triallists are riding faster than Anquetil et al did. Pretty much every sport in the world has shown massive gains over - say - 40 years, even where doping would be of negligible effect e.g. cricket. Techniques improve, coaching improves, equipment improves. In endurance sport - especially the complex area of road-racing which isn't just about a steady effort over fixed time - the science of training has come on signigicantly, with blood/gas analysis that Anquetil just didnt have (heard of power-meters Flatus?). Sky have made dozens of quite small improvements (that are often then copied); a trivial-but-nice example is the interview-warmdown! Oh yeah - nutrition has come on too.

But hey - if you win, you must be doping. Or rather taking the best dope!

We keep coming back to it - riders can't prove a negative, but rumours sell the most papers/click-thrus/books ..
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #276 on: 28 October, 2016, 07:18:11 pm »
You have misquoted me, I didn't say that Lemond called Sky's training methods bollocks. I said he called marginal gains bollocks.

What is marginal gains if not a description of Sky's approach to training? The term is just management jargon anyway, it really doesn't mean anything.


It isn't just a description of training. It's a description of everything.....which is why they blat on about equipment, mattresses, pillows, etc etc.

Of course it's jargon, but it is being used to explain inexplicable performance gains.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #277 on: 28 October, 2016, 07:20:19 pm »
Quote
Froome holds the 3rd all time fastest ascent time up AX3. He beat two of Armstrong's ascents (03/05) but not Armstrong's 01 time.

Funny that isn't it.  Nothing to see here. No evidence. Move along....

If it were evidence of anything, what exactly would it be evidence of?

Evidence of better understanding of the effects of training and diet on performance, training at altitude for preparation, sleeping in oxygen enriched environment to aid recovery, use of power meters to gauge progress and performance, including use on the climb, better use of teams to enable star rider gets to bottom of climb with more energy to spare, better equipment including kit that helps marginal gains to give a 'faster' bike.  Might even check road surface!

But none of this will convince the keyboard warrior that can slag off someone at will without having any credible evidence.  In another thread that attitude would be roundly condemned, but in this thread it appears OK, in the eyes of some, to make accusations that simply amount to 'hear say' with nothing to substantiate the claim.  Personally, I think they would be better of following the investigation as to whether or not man did really land on the moon!

(Good posts citoyen, but I don't think your rational argument will have any effect on someone with a closed mind and appears to hold a view that could be described as biased)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #278 on: 28 October, 2016, 07:26:37 pm »
And of course "Evidence of better understanding of the effects of training and diet on performance, training at altitude for preparation, sleeping in oxygen enriched environment to aid recovery, use of power meters to gauge progress and performance, including use on the climb, better use of teams to enable star rider gets to bottom of climb with more energy to spare, better equipment including kit that helps marginal gains to give a 'faster' bike.  Might even check road surface! Bla bla bla"...

...is only available to Team Sky riders ::-)

It's not new. Lance won because he trained harder than everyone else  ;)

We've heard it all before, which is why Landis (do you know who he is and for whom he rode?) said "we know the script".


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #279 on: 28 October, 2016, 07:39:49 pm »
And what evidence does Landis have to substantiate his claim?

None whatsoever. But as he is a convicted doper, he is credible!

Based on your stance, all winners in whatever sport must be doping. Sky have not won Giro or Veluta, so others that have won must dope. Cav must dope, Kittel, Mo, Usain, and all those para Olympians as they did beat the competition and set WRs at the same time.

Or do you just think Sky are cheating?

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #280 on: 28 October, 2016, 07:44:14 pm »
And what evidence does Landis have to substantiate his claim?

None whatsoever. But as he is a convicted doper, he is credible!

That's exactly the line Armstrong tried when Landis exposed him.

Quote
Based on your stance, all winners in whatever sport must be doping. Sky have not won Giro or Veluta, so others that have won must dope. Cav must dope, Kittel, Mo, Usain, and all those para Olympians as they did beat the competition and set WRs at the same time.

Or do you just think Sky are cheating?

All winners in all sports must be doping based on my stance?
I think you and logic have a difficult relationship.

Do I think just Sky are cheating? No, I don't.  But I think Sky are definitely cheating.


citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #281 on: 28 October, 2016, 07:57:21 pm »
It isn't just a description of training. It's a description of everything.....which is why they blat on about equipment, mattresses, pillows, etc etc.

OK, fair enough. I just mentally package all that up into the 'training' side of things as opposed to the racing side.

I took LeMond's comments at face value when he said there's nothing new in Sky's methodology. LeMond took a similarly scientific approach back in the 80s, looking at aerodynamics and using power meters - albeit without a billionaire media mogul to fund him. Hence 'marginal gains' is 'bollocks' because it's simply putting a new label on ideas that have been knocking around for a long time. (And that may or may not include doping.)

I have a great deal of respect for LeMond, he's my all-time cycling hero, so when he says he's troubled by the sight of Froome spinning away from his rivals up a mountain at 110rpm, I take notice of that. But he stops well short of making any specific accusations. And the reason he stops short is because he just doesn't know. And this is one of the reasons I still respect his opinion - he knows where to draw the line when it comes to making accusations. Whenever Paul Kimmage opens his mouth these days, he just sounds bitter and almost deranged.

Quote
Of course it's jargon, but it is being used to explain inexplicable performance gains.

If you think Brailsford is using the term as a smokescreen, OK, I get where you're coming from. I just think he's the kind of management twat who talks like that and don't read anything more into it.

Of course, if you want to see what really sets Sky apart from all the other teams, follow the money - nothing marginal about that gain.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #282 on: 28 October, 2016, 07:58:44 pm »
No problem with logic but I do have a challenge trying to work out how someone can make unsubstantiated claims without any evidence other than opinions of others.

You quote Lemond. I could accuse him of using PEDs based on his unbelievable performance: just look at the way he caught BH on AdH, it was just unbelievable! And coming back after that shooting, unbelievable!  And just because he did not test positive? Clever boy!

Of course, I don't believe the above, but so easy to make accusations based on nil evidence, rather like there is no evidence regarding Sky. But why let the facts get in the way of a good story?

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #283 on: 28 October, 2016, 08:03:56 pm »
...is exactly what Armstrong fans (and Armstrong) used to say.  Never tested positive.

What evidence would you like? A failed dope test? That will never happen.

It never happened with Armstrong. It only happened with Contador because the UCI failed in their cover up.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #284 on: 28 October, 2016, 08:08:02 pm »
Government now appear to be getting involved. It doesn't look good for SKY, especially with Brailsford currently
not commenting on the contents of the 2011 package.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/parliament-to-look-into-wiggins-mystery-package-news-shorts/


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #285 on: 28 October, 2016, 08:54:32 pm »
(I do understand that it's outside your personal ethics code - and I can understand why - but the rules aren't based on that.)

So, you're perfectly ok that they pretended to have a severe medical iisue and prescribed him a drug that he did not need, so that he could gain a significant advantage over his fellow competitors?..because it was 'within the rules'?

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #286 on: 29 October, 2016, 12:36:44 am »
You have misquoted me, I didn't say that Lemond called Sky's training methods bollocks. I said he called marginal gains bollocks.

What is marginal gains if not a description of Sky's approach to training? The term is just management jargon anyway, it really doesn't mean anything.


It isn't just a description of training. It's a description of everything.....which is why they blat on about equipment, mattresses, pillows, etc etc.

Of course it's jargon, but it is being used to explain inexplicable performance gains.

And this is where we -and an awful lot of intelligent observers - disagree. Actually, the concept of 'marginal gains' applies to all professional sport, and will continue to do so. Changes in training technique, diet and equipment will always and continually enable people to achieve better and better results. That may spook you, but it's a fact that I - a 60 year old man with no history of elite athleticism - can out-perform an elite athlete of 100 years ago while surviving on a diet of beer and burgers, simply because the limited amount of training I do is better focussed than anything they did, and the equipment I ride is from another level of technology to anything they could imagine. Over years and years, that encapsulates marginal gains. But I've occasionally used cough and cold remedies that would have disqualified me from competition, even though they would have made absolutely no difference to the end result. But, hey-ho, I'm probably part of the problem...

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #287 on: 29 October, 2016, 12:38:55 am »
(I do understand that it's outside your personal ethics code - and I can understand why - but the rules aren't based on that.)

So, you're perfectly ok that they pretended to have a severe medical iisue and prescribed him a drug that he did not need, so that he could gain a significant advantage over his fellow competitors?..because it was 'within the rules'?


I am. Because the rules are the only criteria against which they may be judged. And they were within the rules.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #288 on: 29 October, 2016, 01:29:29 am »
I wonder if the rules say, eg:

we (the UCI) will consider granting you a TUE if you:
suffer from the condition for which the drug is to treat, and you have a prescription from your team doctor.

Or:
we (the UCI) will consider granting you a TUE if you:
you have a prescription from your team doctor.

Apparently TUEs are all done in secret, it would interesting to know which riders have applied for TUEs and who gets them.




Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #289 on: 29 October, 2016, 04:29:29 am »
(I do understand that it's outside your personal ethics code - and I can understand why - but the rules aren't based on that.)

So, you're perfectly ok that they pretended to have a severe medical iisue and prescribed him a drug that he did not need, so that he could gain a significant advantage over his fellow competitors?..because it was 'within the rules'?


I am. Because the rules are the only criteria against which they may be judged. And they were within the rules.

Heh. Pretty darn sure you wouldn't be if it was non-Sky team did the same thing.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #290 on: 29 October, 2016, 08:00:58 am »
You have misquoted me, I didn't say that Lemond called Sky's training methods bollocks. I said he called marginal gains bollocks.

What is marginal gains if not a description of Sky's approach to training? The term is just management jargon anyway, it really doesn't mean anything.


It isn't just a description of training. It's a description of everything.....which is why they blat on about equipment, mattresses, pillows, etc etc.

Of course it's jargon, but it is being used to explain inexplicable performance gains.

And this is where we -and an awful lot of intelligent observers - disagree. Actually, the concept of 'marginal gains' applies to all professional sport, and will continue to do so. Changes in training technique, diet and equipment will always and continually enable people to achieve better and better results. That may spook you, but it's a fact that I - a 60 year old man with no history of elite athleticism - can out-perform an elite athlete of 100 years ago while surviving on a diet of beer and burgers, simply because the limited amount of training I do is better focussed than anything they did, and the equipment I ride is from another level of technology to anything they could imagine. Over years and years, that encapsulates marginal gains. But I've occasionally used cough and cold remedies that would have disqualified me from competition, even though they would have made absolutely no difference to the end result. But, hey-ho, I'm probably part of the problem...

Righto.

So Sky are using Pinarellos from space, unavailable to anyone else, and all the other teams are using steel Bianchis from the 1920s?

Sky are using training techniques that nobody else knows about and team staff and riders have their memories wiped clean when they move to other teams so that they can't take the techniques with them?

What people were doing 50 years ago is neither here nor there. Nobody is saying that nutrition, equipment and training techniques haven't and can't improve, but you'd have to be particularly blinkered to think that these gains are only available to one team and the benefits stop working once riders leave that one team.

Sure you can try and improve everything, but again that cannot account for the dominance of one sole team, whose Tour de France roster all seem to be able to reach the performance of their careers at the same time.  It can't account for a rider like Froome, whose contract with Sky was coming to an end and unlikely to be renewed, suddenly transforming from a back of the pack nobody to the best rider in the world.

Oh, sorry. I forgot he unknowingly had Bilharzia for years and Sky (and only Sky) looked into why he was under performing and cured him with marginal gains.

You and the British media have lapped this shit up.  We've seen it all before. Last time it was called CTS, the Carmichael Training System, and Lance Armstrong used it to train harder than anybody else.   Nobody else thought to train a bit harder.

So now we find out that Wiggins used the drug of choice of the 1980s and won lots of races. We find that Brailsford has run out of bullshit to spout and that there is interest at Parliamentary level into what Sky have been doing.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #291 on: 29 October, 2016, 08:35:24 am »
Quick pub quiz question for TimC:

In which well-known sportsman's book did a ghostwriter hear from the sportsman that he had received intramuscular injections of a steroid, used extensively in cycling as a PED, prior to his greatest win and prior to other big events but interpreted the sportman's words as meaning  this:

“British Cycling have always had a no-needle policy, it’s been a mainstay of theirs; so it was something I grew up with as a bike rider,” he wrote.
“In British cycling culture, at the word ‘needle’ or the sight of one, you go, ‘Oh shit’, it’s a complete taboo…
“I’ve never had an injection, apart from I’ve had my vaccinations, and on occasion I’ve been put on a drip, when I’ve come down with diarrhoea or something or have been severely dehydrated.”

(Nothing to see hear, move along everyone and shut up too)

Of course, when Wiggins wrote his book he had no idea the TUEs  would ever come to light. The only reason we know about them is because a hack revealed them.

This from a team who promised to be whiter than white. A team who said they operate to higher ethical standards than everyone else. A team who talk about openness and transparency. A team who didn't join the MPCC (which would have meant Wiggins couldn't have used Kenacort to win the TdF) because they operate at a higher level of ethical purity than even the MPCC demand.

This has been blown out of the water because of a hack that Sky couldn't have anticipated. Whoops.


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #292 on: 29 October, 2016, 09:46:18 am »
This from a team who promised to be whiter than white. A team who said they operate to higher ethical standards than everyone else.

That's what galls people, including me.  At the very least it's hypocrisy, but increasingly appears to be outright cheating, ethically if not strictly legally.  To me the argument of legality is a fig leaf for cheaters to hide behind - e.g. Lance.

It will be really interesting to see what Parliament find out about the mystery package.  Wiggo could be the second person this year to lose his honour (so to speak).
The sound of one pannier flapping

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #293 on: 29 October, 2016, 09:53:25 am »
Here's what former UCI President, Patrick McQuaid said:

"“It would look like it’s more Sky and their ethical policy. Their attitude is that marginal gains are anything that’s possible as long as it’s in the rules. TUEs are in the rules. When you’re trying to preach the ethics and this, that and the other, and you’re seeming to be bending the rule, it’s a bit hypocritical to be honest with you.”

Hmmm......bending the rules.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #294 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:30:36 am »
(I do understand that it's outside your personal ethics code - and I can understand why - but the rules aren't based on that.)

So, you're perfectly ok that they pretended to have a severe medical iisue and prescribed him a drug that he did not need, so that he could gain a significant advantage over his fellow competitors?..because it was 'within the rules'?


I am. Because the rules are the only criteria against which they may be judged. And they were within the rules.

Heh. Pretty darn sure you wouldn't be if it was non-Sky team did the same thing.

Really? Why? I have no association with, nor do I support, any pro cycling team. I don't watch pro cycling other than the TdF and male and female Tours of Britain. I don't regard it as a particularly exciting sport to watch, and it makes no difference to my life if the whole sport consumes itself in its ever-decreasing circles of self-examination. I found the melée over TUE-gate to be both amusing and bizarre, and the tendency of some observers to now assume that absolutely everything is suspicious is simply conspiracy theory. The idea that working within the rules is somehow illegal is fantasy. If the rules are inadequate (and they were), change them (they have).

Listen, I don't care if the entire Sky media organisation ceases to exist tomorrow. I don't use Sky, I don't buy any of their product, and I certainly don't give a shit about their cycling team. I do give a shit about logic and legalities, and I do not accept that rules can be applied in hindsight.

And now I'm bored with this. You can carry on arguing up your own fundament if you wish. I have a lawn to mow, beer to drink, and more interesting places to be.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #295 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:32:59 am »
Toys out of the pram.

You had no need for that last paragraph.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #296 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:39:11 am »
My pram remains full of toys, actually. And they are more interesting than this argument!

You see, pro cycling is totally unimportant in the grand scheme of things, and I've exceeded the number of milliseconds of my attention it justifies in a totally useless and aimless argument, the result of which makes absolutely no difference to me. So go ahead, continue. I have exhausted my interest in it. If you get whatever result you're after (and I'm not clear what that is, unless it's the banning of anyone that wins anything in cycling), good luck to you. Then you can move on to something else that probably has no impact on the world outside the pro-cycling bubble.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #297 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:45:03 am »
I've love to be able to share around some of my pred so others can get a sense of what it'd feel like to be on a Froome "Romandie dose". You really know you are on it. Gawd knows how full on kenalog feels.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #298 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:56:21 am »
Sky are using training techniques that nobody else knows about and team staff and riders have their memories wiped clean when they move to other teams so that they can't take the techniques with them

What Sky have that other teams don't have is money. A fuck of a lot of money. They can sign up riders as domestiques  who would be leaders on other teams. Wout Poels and Mikel Landa have no business being Froome's lieutenants - they should be GC contenders in their own right.

There could be many reasons why some riders show a dip in performance when they leave Sky and join other teams, and not all of them are suspicious.

There are also plenty of cases of riders who have dipped or failed to improve when joining Sky (eg Nicolas Roche), and others who have improved after leaving Sky (eg Alex Dowsett). As with the climbing times, it's easy to pick and choose examples to support whatever argument you choose. None of it is proof of anything.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Samuel D

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #299 on: 29 October, 2016, 10:59:19 am »
Even if you care about pro cycling and follow it more closely than TimC does, it doesn’t follow that you must think Sky are innocent because they’re British or innovative or whatever. I think they’re innocent because there hasn’t been a shred of evidence to the contrary. No other reason.

My support for Sky is really the support of rational thought and the rule of law over innuendo and unhinged ranting. I’m afraid I now read everything Flatus writes in the voice of his avatar.