Sky - gaming the system?

[αdαmsκι]

Here's a David Walsh interview

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Highlights_from_Off_The_Ball/172278/David_Walsh_on_Team_Sky_Brailsford_Froome_Leinders

He still believes in Froome but has big questions regarding Wiggins, Sutton, Sir Dave and Team Sky.

Interestingly at the end he says that doping is about money. Have enough cash and there are ways around drug testing, the implication being that Wiggins' TUE is an example of such behaviour. Whereas in Russia money isn't as preveleant and so there's no way to easily cover up doping.

[Exit Stage Left]

If Wiggins has the 2012 Tour taken off him, that leaves Froome one win nearer a record. That's good for Sky and good for Britain, but I'd rather have Wiggins, as he's more Rock 'n Roll.

I'm not particularly bothered about the patriotic stuff surrounding sport, especially when it's professional. It's a spectacle, and one with a whole host of parasitic entities feeding off the public's interest.

[drgannet]

Here's a David Walsh interview

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Highlights_from_Off_The_Ball/172278/David_Walsh_on_Team_Sky_Brailsford_Froome_Leinders

He still believes in Froome but has big questions regarding Wiggins, Sutton, Sir Dave and Team Sky.

Interestingly at the end he says that doping is about money. Have enough cash and there are ways around drug testing, the implication being that Wiggins' TUE is an example of such behaviour. Whereas in Russia money isn't as preveleant and so there's no way to easily cover up doping.

David Walsh is always interesting to listen to (there was a very good short lecture from him at the end of the TED radio hour on 4 extra at the weekend; just rememebr that he does have a tendancy to make up his mind on things and then look for evidence afterwards). The radio interviewer was awful though.

[Jakob]

Here's a David Walsh interview

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Highlights_from_Off_The_Ball/172278/David_Walsh_on_Team_Sky_Brailsford_Froome_Leinders

He still believes in Froome but has big questions regarding Wiggins, Sutton, Sir Dave and Team Sky.

Interestingly at the end he says that doping is about money. Have enough cash and there are ways around drug testing, the implication being that Wiggins' TUE is an example of such behaviour. Whereas in Russia money isn't as preveleant and so there's no way to easily cover up doping.

David Walsh is always interesting to listen to (there was a very good short lecture from him at the end of the TED radio hour on 4 extra at the weekend; just rememebr that he does have a tendancy to make up his mind on things and then look for evidence afterwards). The radio interviewer was awful though.

Listening to it now and they really, really want to nail Froome and blame Leinders for everything.

[Relayer]

^^^^^

Are we to assume that BC is tainted with the drug culture, otherwise how do we explain the rise from what you describe as no tradition, champions etc, then the likes of Laura and Jason Kenny are also on the PED treadmill?

Or perhaps they got their rewards by hard work, better facilities with good support and dedication to the sport. Not such an interesting story perhaps, although their book gives an insight to what it takes.

My challenge is that too many cyclists have achieved greatness in terms of medals etc and if that was achieved by PED the story would have been spilled by now as there are too many folk involved.

Jason Kenny is a very interesting case, especially when you look at Gregory Bauge's questions directly to Jason Kenny in the press conference at the london Olympics http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bauge-leads-press-conference-following-sprint-defeat/

... especially since Bauge said "If I understand, you'll relax for the next four years and then when it comes to Rio you'll be on top again, right?"  ....  "Not at all," replied Kenny. "The Games is the main one for us but for me, I still want to win world championships. They mean a lot for me as a rider. So I'll just go forward."

... and as far as I can understand the Wikipedia summary of Kenny's performances between 2012 and 2016 Bauge's prediction was absolutely correct.

So, I ask how do we explain Jason Kenny's rise from nowhere to win gold in 2012, and then do precious little for another 4 years, only to sweep the board in Rio? I haven't read his book and I wouldn't waste my money on it, but I find it extremely hard to believe that the "rewards by hard work, better facilities with good support and dedication to the sport." only kick in every 4 years.

[Jaded]

^^^^^

Are we to assume that BC is tainted with the drug culture, otherwise how do we explain the rise from what you describe as no tradition, champions etc, then the likes of Laura and Jason Kenny are also on the PED treadmill?

Or perhaps they got their rewards by hard work, better facilities with good support and dedication to the sport. Not such an interesting story perhaps, although their book gives an insight to what it takes.

My challenge is that too many cyclists have achieved greatness in terms of medals etc and if that was achieved by PED the story would have been spilled by now as there are too many folk involved.

Jason Kenny is a very interesting case, especially when you look at Gregory Bauge's questions directly to Jason Kenny in the press conference at the london Olympics http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bauge-leads-press-conference-following-sprint-defeat/

... especially since Bauge said "If I understand, you'll relax for the next four years and then when it comes to Rio you'll be on top again, right?"  ....  "Not at all," replied Kenny. "The Games is the main one for us but for me, I still want to win world championships. They mean a lot for me as a rider. So I'll just go forward."

... and as far as I can understand the Wikipedia summary of Kenny's performances between 2012 and 2016 Bauge's prediction was absolutely correct.

So, I ask how do we explain Jason Kenny's rise from nowhere to win gold in 2012, and then do precious little for another 4 years, only to sweep the board in Rio? I haven't read his book and I wouldn't waste my money on it, but I find it extremely hard to believe that the "rewards by hard work, better facilities with good support and dedication to the sport." only kick in every 4 years.

Never heard a Gold and Silver at the Olympics to be called 'nowhere'.

[Hot Flatus]

Kenny didnt come from nowhere.....but this is beside the point. The thread is about Sky and in particular Wiggins road wins. 

We now know that Wiggins used a costicosteriod, via the TUE system, in exactly the same manner as confessed dopers used it, also via the TUE system. We know he did this and we also know that there is no evidence to show that he was actually ill on the three occasions that he used it prior to major races. We know that Wiggins lied in his own autobiography about never having received an injection (other than holiday vaccinations).

It would take a pretty massive bout of cognitive dissonance to fail to accept that Wiggins took this drug for its performance enhancement qualities.

But we dont have any evidence about the rest of Team Sky, and just because we know that Brailsford was in on the TUE, doesnt mean he doped up BC track riders. 

I'd suggest that the suspicions towards the BC track wins are in part a result of Wiggins, Frokme and Team Sky, by association via Brailsford. There is no evidence of unscrupulous use of known PEDs in the BC track team, whereas there is pretty clear evidence of such a thing happenning at Sky.

[Hot Flatus]

Ouch.

Ukad chair adds to pressure on Sir Dave Brailsford over mystery package proof

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jan/07/ukad-pressure-dave-brailsford-team-sky-david-kenworthy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


So, in other words, a big WTF from the head of UKAD on hearing Brailsford's 'explanation' of the package story.  At the same time, Froome is refusing to endorse Brailsford.

[toontra]

It's nosediving for Brailsford.  His stories are coming apart at the seams and it looks likely he'll take Wiggins' reputation down with him.  His explanation of the mystery package is frankly farcical.  It's so ridiculous that either it's true (in the way that fact is stranger than fiction) or (more likely IMO) it's the delusional nonsense of a man caught in a web of lies and desperately trying to extricate himself from the s**t.

[Hot Flatus]

It certainly looks as if its Brailsford who is going under the bus

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It'll be interesting to see who else gets hit.

[Hot Flatus]

Mind you, I think everyone, BC, UKAD, let alone Team Sky are trying to dodge the bus!

[Jakob]

Mind you, I think everyone, BC, UKAD, let alone Team Sky are trying to dodge the bus!

It's too bad. It was the same when CSC started up, with being the 'new clean team, first to introduce biological passports', etc and it turned out that they were just better at cheating than the rest.

[Hot Flatus]

Thats the problem, isnt it.

If you rock up as a newbie and you grandstand about just how clean you are going to be, how you aren't going to employ any ex-dopers be it riders or staff, how you aren't going to let riders on a TUE race,  how you are going to produce a clean British TdF winner, you arent just saying something about yourself, you are also by implication saying something about everybody else.

So when it turns out that half your ex-pro staff are ex-doping riders, and some of your current riders are from notoriously dirty teams, and your turnaround moment in terms of success comes after you employ a doctor who masterminded a sophisticated doping system in his previous team, and your star rider is abusing the TUE system in exactly the same way that confessed-dopers did in order to win races (and lies about it in his autobiography) and all this has happenned under the aegis of the national federation because of a strong linkage, the only thing that you can bank on to stop an almighty shitstorm from happenning is the continued ignorance of the general public, because you sure as hell wont get any support from your peers. It speaks volumes that nobody, even his own team mates, are coming out in support of Wiggins, and its pretty clear that the only people coming out in support of Team Sky in general, are ex-Sky riders.

The british public, or at least those whose nationalistic hubris has kept their fingers firmly in their ears in happy ignorance, are being exposed to details and facts that are impossible to glibly dismiss.

[citoyen]

If you rock up as a newbie and you grandstand about just how clean you are going to be, how you aren't going to employ any ex-dopers be it riders or staff, how you aren't going to let riders on a TUE race,  how you are going to produce a clean British TdF winner, you arent just saying something about yourself, you are also by implication saying something about everybody else.

Yeah, it's not a great way to make friends when you're new to the business.

Brailsford was never really the 'mastermind' of British cycling success anyway, and he's starting to look like a middle manager who got promoted beyond his capabilities. His handling of the media has always been appalling and his man-management skills have been shown to be lacking on many occasions too.

Peter Keen is out of work at the moment. They should kick Brailsford out of Sky and bring him in - although he might be horrified at what he finds...

[Hot Flatus]

Froome rejected a TUE in 2015 on 'moral' grounds

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/38534318


Funny that Froome should have had an attack of morality during the 2015 Tour.

He had no such qualms one year earlier when he applied for a TUE for banned corticosteroids prior to the Tour de Romandie and had it fast-tracked, so that he could compete in that race.

He must have really needed it, poor lamb. Must be terrible having to race against world class competitors when you are so poorly that you need 40mg per day of Prednisolone.

Still, winning the overall race and winning the final time trial in front of world TT champion Tony Martin probably made up for feeling so poorly.

[LEE]

This is starting to have the hallmark of, "Everyone else was abusing TUE so we were just trying to level the playing field", to paraphrase a famous cyclist who didn't win 7 TdFs.

I'm not saying they did, just that it's the de facto justification, by team bosses, when massaging the conscience of their riders.


The one thing I take from all this is that it's worth waiting 20 years or so before buying any cycling memorabilia with a rider's name on it (How much are Rapha's "Wiggo" T-shirts?)

[Exit Stage Left]

It looks more to me like someone trying categorically to prove that there's no such thing as Santa Claus. And in the meantime killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

[Hot Flatus]

Golden eggs are of little use if a little later it turns out that they are rotten inside.

Ask Lance Armstrong.

[Exit Stage Left]

It depends if you see the Tour as more than a fairy story. I'm inclined to take my lead from 'Frozen' and 'Let it Go'.

[zigzag]

It looks more to me like someone trying categorically to prove that there's no such thing as Santa Claus. And in the meantime killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li3N-eYt4g8

[Hot Flatus]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/38573615

Brailsford talking more bollocks

[αdαmsκι]

I read this via google translate but it sums up some of the main problems facing Brailsford at the moment.

http://www.lemonde.fr/cyclisme/article/2017/01/12/cyclisme-le-mysterieux-colis-qui-fait-tanguer-le-navire-sky_5061543_1616656.html

[Jakob]

Has anyone asked Wiggins if he knew what was in the 'package'?. Or is he still a protected species?

[sg37409]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/38573615

Brailsford talking more bollocks

That was cringe worthy. Almost felt sorry for him as it was so plain to see he didn't have any replies. I think he'd have been better off not saying a thing.