Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 188688 times)

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #475 on: 25 January, 2017, 10:04:22 am »
( I nearly bought some, but couldn't stomach the SKy logo on my arse. )

If it was on the arse, on the inside, I may buy some.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

rob

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #476 on: 25 January, 2017, 10:10:42 am »
I suspect all the HPV stuff is much the same, but they're even weirder than time-triallists and audaxers.

Ah good.   I was looking for something to do next year.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #477 on: 25 January, 2017, 10:34:46 am »
I suspect all the HPV stuff is much the same, but they're even weirder than time-triallists and audaxers.

Ah good.   I was looking for something to do next year.

Those circuits of Romney Marsh would be a lot more fun on a fully faired recumbent.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #478 on: 25 January, 2017, 11:27:11 am »
I suspect all the HPV stuff is much the same, but they're even weirder than time-triallists and audaxers.

Ah good.   I was looking for something to do next year.

My grate frend Mr Woolrich already has a rider lined up for the machine he's revamping ATM but he has a longer-term plan to rebuild his old machine Oscar the Egg ;D
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #479 on: 30 January, 2017, 06:58:19 pm »
Unwitting Flumucil courier, Simon Cope, and the Sky doctor at the centre of this 'nothing-to-see-here' controversy have been asked to attend the Parliamentary hearing in late february.

I cant begin to imagine what answers Cope will conjure up to explain why he couriered a medical package of unknown content across international borders.

I wonder if the good doctor will be asked to account for the almost unimaginable coincidence of Wiggins 'pollen allergy' flaring up, so badly as to warrant a PED, at different times of the year, but always before a major multiday tour. Hmmm.


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #480 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:09:44 pm »
Unwitting Flumucil courier, Simon Cope, and the Sky doctor at the centre of this 'nothing-to-see-here' controversy have been asked to attend the Parliamentary hearing in late february.

I cant begin to imagine what answers Cope will conjure up to explain why he couriered a medical package of unknown content across international borders.

I wonder if the good doctor will be asked to account for the almost unimaginable coincidence of Wiggins 'pollen allergy' flaring up, so badly as to warrant a PED, at different times of the year, but always before a major multiday tour. Hmmm.

I'd like to see the treatment guidelines he was following for its use.

These don't suggest "big race coming up, am a bit sniffy" will cut it.

http://www.nhsggc.org.uk/media/230935/Triamcinolone%20in%20adults%20Difficult%20Asthma%20Advice%20Note%20June%2013_with_Header.pdf

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #481 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:36:19 pm »
You're right.

But the rules don't reflect this. So they probably weren't cheating. The rules need changing.

... and round we go again ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #482 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:36:49 pm »
Unwitting Flumucil courier, Simon Cope, and the Sky doctor at the centre of this 'nothing-to-see-here' controversy have been asked to attend the Parliamentary hearing in late february.

I cant begin to imagine what answers Cope will conjure up to explain why he couriered a medical package of unknown content across international borders.

I wonder if the good doctor will be asked to account for the almost unimaginable coincidence of Wiggins 'pollen allergy' flaring up, so badly as to warrant a PED, at different times of the year, but always before a major multiday tour. Hmmm.

I'd like to see the treatment guidelines he was following for its use.

These don't suggest "big race coming up, am a bit sniffy" will cut it.

http://www.nhsggc.org.uk/media/230935/Triamcinolone%20in%20adults%20Difficult%20Asthma%20Advice%20Note%20June%2013_with_Header.pdf

I think they ought to amend the 'known side effects' section to include:
  • winning a grand tour

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #483 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:37:19 pm »

http://www.nhsggc.org.uk/media/230935/Triamcinolone%20in%20adults%20Difficult%20Asthma%20Advice%20Note%20June%2013_with_Header.pdf

This is actually extremely handy, as my wife's asthma is barely controlled and prednisiolone, while effective, only works for a couple of weeks. I shall print this out and hand it to our doctor.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #484 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:37:51 pm »
Matt, the TUE rules do and did reflect this. It is just that TUEs were getting signed regardless.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #485 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:38:13 pm »
You're right.

But the rules don't reflect this. So they probably weren't cheating. The rules need changing.

... and round we go again ...

If Wiggins didn't need the treatment, then they were cheating.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #486 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:38:40 pm »
You're right.

But the rules don't reflect this. So they probably weren't cheating. The rules need changing.

... and round we go again ...

Sky cheated the TUE system.

With the complicity of the UCI.

Edit:LWAB got there first

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #487 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:40:59 pm »
You're right.

But the rules don't reflect this. So they probably weren't cheating. The rules need changing.

... and round we go again ...

If Wiggins didn't need the treatment, then they were cheating.
Define "need".
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #488 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:49:19 pm »
Doubtless Wiggins's history of repeated hospitalisations due to his 'pollen allergy' will be proof enough that this drug was absolutely necessary.

Errr....

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #489 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:51:49 pm »
Doubtless Wiggins's history of repeated hospitalisations due to his 'pollen allergy' will be proof enough that this drug was absolutely necessary.

pointless hyperbole! Let us know when you've thought about real sport and the real rules that govern them  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #490 on: 30 January, 2017, 07:56:45 pm »
TUE applications need to meet all of the following criteria before a TUE will be granted:

• The rider would experience significant health problems without taking the prohibited substance or method

• The therapeutic use of the substance would not produce enhancement of performance

• There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative

• Use of the prohibited substance or method is not needed because of previous doping.

The following evidence is needed to support a TUE application:

• Medical history

• An accurate diagnosis. For chronic conditions, up-to-date review letters that confirm treatment monitoring should be provided.

• Alternatives have been considered or trialled.

Some things to note:

Need to meet all of the criteria.

Would experience significant health problems, not could.

Not produce enhancement of performance.

No reasonable therapeutic alternative.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #491 on: 30 January, 2017, 08:00:16 pm »
Doubtless Wiggins's history of repeated hospitalisations due to his 'pollen allergy' will be proof enough that this drug was absolutely necessary.

pointless hyperbole! Let us know when you've thought about real sport and the real rules that govern them  :thumbsup:

Perhaps you should read the NICE guidelines for the administration of this drug, and then have a long hard think about whether a pro cyclist could ever fit those descriptions of a valid user.

After youve done that, maybe open your ears to those of Wiggins's racing peers who've raised their heads above the parapet to give their opinion. Think you'll find not too many in support of him.

I know from your posting history that you've naff all in the way of understanding of this issue, matt. Its a bit silly of you to try and argue from a position of ignorance, because even as an intellectual exercise you are on a loser.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #492 on: 30 January, 2017, 08:01:22 pm »
You're right.

But the rules don't reflect this. So they probably weren't cheating. The rules need changing.

... and round we go again ...

If Wiggins didn't need the treatment, then they were cheating.
Define "need".

As in that he didn't need the treatment in order to function normally. Although he did need it in order to win a TdF.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #493 on: 30 January, 2017, 09:24:54 pm »
You're right.

But the rules don't reflect this. So they probably weren't cheating. The rules need changing.

... and round we go again ...

If Wiggins didn't need the treatment, then they were cheating.
Define "need".

As in that he didn't need the treatment in order to function normally. Although he did need it in order to win a TdF.

But winning a TdF is defined as functionning normally; therefore he did need it!! M'lud I rest my case (and while the jury's retired he will as well).

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #494 on: 31 January, 2017, 11:29:54 am »
Wiggins, his doctor and the others involved in Team Sky doping were probably only doing what the UCI expected and wanted. Which isn't to say that excuses them, just the whole system is rigged.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #495 on: 31 January, 2017, 12:13:36 pm »
The way I read it is that Sky took the opportunity presented by Wiggo's exercise-induced asthma and a quite-likely genuine medical issue to obtain the strongest possible medication allowed under the TUE rules extant at the time - even Wiggins said it was to 'level the playing field'. The moral question of whether anyone should be able to medically compensate for an illness in order to compete is arguable - and will be into eternity, no doubt.

However, the fact is what they did was within the rules, declared as happening at the time, and raised no objection from the governing bodies responsible - who had every opportunity to do so had they wished. There was no subterfuge, no attempt to hide what was happening. Therefore, as I see it, there is no reason for Sky or Wiggins to feel under any threat. The rules were subsequently changed, and will no doubt change again. But you can't judge people for actions which were legal and open at the time, but would not now be so.
EXACTLY!

I remember reading an article, from donkey's years ago about the US track team, their training, diet, equipment and prep for olympics.

They used helium in their tyres.
During training they stored blood and reinjected their own red blood cells before competition. It was legal at the time, so all above board.

Absolutely banned now. Talked about as if it were on a par with murdering babies.
Should they give their medals back? OFFS
I recall reading a press report of the doping strategies of the teams in the FA cup, complete with interviews with the coaches, who freely admitted that they had amphetamines to hand, ready to give to players as & when they thought it might aid their performance. Late 1940s, IIRC. Totally legal & within the rules of the game at the time.

Same-same. If you game the system within the rules at the time, & win, you should keep any medals you won. If it's decided that those rules need to be changed to stop what you did, then new standards apply as soon as the changes take effect - not retrospectively.

Records (world, national, etc.) might need some adjustment, e.g. a classification into pre- & post- drug ban records, but definitely not the medals.


If it turns out that something was done that was only accepted as being within the rules because of a twisted, perhaps corrupt, interpretation & application of a rule (& I can see why that is suspected in this case), then perhaps there might be grounds for retrospective redistribution of awards - but only if the dubious interpretation had skewed benefits. If everyone took advantage of it, then despite the nasty taste it leaves, let wins stand.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #496 on: 31 January, 2017, 08:02:46 pm »
Quote
They used helium in their tyres.

 ;D LOL
Move Faster and Bake Things

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #497 on: 31 January, 2017, 08:10:20 pm »
Matt, the TUE rules do and did reflect this. It is just that TUEs were getting signed regardless.
but Wiggins wasn't signing them (or Brailsford) - unless I missed another exciting tweet?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #498 on: 31 January, 2017, 08:31:11 pm »
Why was Sky asking for TUEs that weren't in accordance with the TUE rules? A team renowned for thoroughly investigating all of the details would have known that their TUE requests didn't comply with the rules and should have been rejected but they applied anyway.

Why were these inappropriate TUEs approved when they didn't comply with the rules? Can you think of some reasons why that might have happened?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #499 on: 01 February, 2017, 08:21:22 am »
The very fact that the discussion runs to twenty pages says it all really, whether it was right or wrong, Sir Brad's reputation has taken a massive hit along with that of Sky and BC by association. In the minds of a significant number of fans the result will always have an asterisk against it.

As to the result standing, of course it will, after all Riis', Ullrich's et al results still stand.