Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 188101 times)

Karla

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #700 on: 19 March, 2017, 01:28:22 am »
I'm not sure that the "Sky train" wins that many races these days (compared to the other team "trains" at least).
They've won the last two monuments in a row ...

αdαmsκι

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #701 on: 19 March, 2017, 07:33:36 am »
They've won the last two monuments in a row ...

No, you've forgotten about Giro di Lombardia that's held in Oct and was won by Chaves.
What on earth am I doing here on this beautiful day?! This is the only life I've got!!

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mattc

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #702 on: 19 March, 2017, 08:32:37 am »
Since when has ethics had anything to do with sport, particularly professional sport? Winning for your sponsors is what counts (which means exposure by whatever means) and anything which isn't clearly against the rules must be not against the rules.

IMO you are wrong there for a number of reasons. Perhaps most of all, pro sport doesnt exist without fans, and many fans have some sort of "sporting values" or "ethics" if you prefer. Debate is a major part of the fan experience (which drives viewing and ticket purchases), and if we just discussed the dry facts, there wouldn't be very much debate, punditry, newspaper coverage, books written ... etc ... etc ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #703 on: 19 March, 2017, 01:03:18 pm »
Since when has ethics had anything to do with sport, particularly professional sport? Winning for your sponsors is what counts (which means exposure by whatever means) and anything which isn't clearly against the rules must be not against the rules.

IMO you are wrong there for a number of reasons. Perhaps most of all, pro sport doesnt exist without fans, and many fans have some sort of "sporting values" or "ethics" if you prefer. Debate is a major part of the fan experience (which drives viewing and ticket purchases), and if we just discussed the dry facts, there wouldn't be very much debate, punditry, newspaper coverage, books written ... etc ... etc ...

I am not sure to what extent the fans are actually a driving force in pro road-racing; it's basically free spectacle. OK a lot of riders have fan clubs (even some of the less successful french boys) but I'm not sure they drive the sport (mostly they drive big campervans and apéro sales AFAICS). It is the free aspect that stops track cycling taking off the way it ought to in France. Perhaps I am being contaminated by french sports commentators.

Coming back to an old point, riders who won TdF clean, the only one that springs to my mind is Gino Bartali (for whom everything I have read points in that direction). Two other names who come to mind are Eugène Christophe and Raymond Poulidor, who both never won it. I had a clubmate who raced amateur races in Poulidor's period and his story was that Poulidor was a tight-fisted Limousin peasant who would have if it was free but would never spend his hard-earned cash on dope (this is the sort of son of the earth who is so greatly appreciated in this part of the world, without the reasons being too evident). The same clubmate said that all the pros used to dope in the post-Tour crits just to make sure the amateurs didn't get a sniff of the prizemoney - and I believe him!

mattc

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #704 on: 19 March, 2017, 05:53:53 pm »
Since when has ethics had anything to do with sport, particularly professional sport? Winning for your sponsors is what counts (which means exposure by whatever means) and anything which isn't clearly against the rules must be not against the rules.

IMO you are wrong there for a number of reasons. Perhaps most of all, pro sport doesnt exist without fans, and many fans have some sort of "sporting values" or "ethics" if you prefer. Debate is a major part of the fan experience (which drives viewing and ticket purchases), and if we just discussed the dry facts, there wouldn't be very much debate, punditry, newspaper coverage, books written ... etc ... etc ...

I am not sure to what extent the fans are actually a driving force in pro road-racing; it's basically free spectacle.
We must be talking at cross-purposes, because that seems to make no sense! :)

Without fans watching - whether they pay or not - you would not have sponsors. => no wages, no professional cycle-sport.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #705 on: 19 March, 2017, 07:42:37 pm »
Coming back to an old point, riders who won TdF clean, the only one that springs to my mind is Gino Bartali (for whom everything I have read points in that direction). Two other names who come to mind are Eugène Christophe and Raymond Poulidor, who both never won it. I had a clubmate who raced amateur races in Poulidor's period and his story was that Poulidor was a tight-fisted Limousin peasant who would have if it was free but would never spend his hard-earned cash on dope (this is the sort of son of the earth who is so greatly appreciated in this part of the world, without the reasons being too evident). The same clubmate said that all the pros used to dope in the post-Tour crits just to make sure the amateurs didn't get a sniff of the prizemoney - and I believe him!

Lemond is highly likely to have won clean, given the size of the bounty offered by Armstrong for evidence of Lemond doping. Virtually every other living TdF winner has doping doubt or certainty.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #706 on: 19 March, 2017, 07:54:48 pm »
Didn't he have a TUE for small doses of lead?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #707 on: 19 March, 2017, 08:01:54 pm »
Marginal gains of mass, to ensure he remained above the UCI minimum weight limit.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #708 on: 19 March, 2017, 08:08:35 pm »
 :)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #709 on: 19 March, 2017, 08:21:03 pm »
Lemond is an outlier in so far as there has never even been a whisper, as LWAB suggests.

Ironically if he had doped, it would have been likely to have been the same drug of choice that Wiggins used to win his TdF.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #710 on: 21 March, 2017, 11:13:23 am »
What about Anquetil? Pheasant and alcohol aren't controlled substances!  :D
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #711 on: 21 March, 2017, 11:35:13 am »
What about Anquetil? Pheasant and alcohol aren't controlled substances!  :D

Anquetil doped, and he was quite open about it. Put it like this - there's no way that he could have done the Dauphiné and Bordeaux–Paris double on bread and water alone.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #712 on: 21 March, 2017, 12:02:48 pm »
Of course he did. I was joking but your point is a serious one; we are in many ways more puritanical now. And hypocritical, because society in general is probably more accepting of drugs (both performance enhancing, not necessarily physically, and purely recreational) than it used to be – but not for professional athletes.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #713 on: 21 March, 2017, 01:12:40 pm »
AFAIR, doping only became illegal in cycling in 1965. It isn't too surprising that riders racing professionally before then were dismissive of dope tests.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #714 on: 21 March, 2017, 01:29:32 pm »
in many ways more puritanical now

I'm not sure about that - I think it's possibly more a reflection of the different types of drugs that are predominantly used now. The traditional Pot Belge seems somehow more innocent than the high-tech pharmaceuticals that are knocking about these days.

I have to admit I was slightly amused by Edmondson's confession - didn't think riders still went in for such quaint practices as injecting vitamins.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #715 on: 21 March, 2017, 02:06:56 pm »
Josh's brother leads our turbo sessions (he's a sports physio, i think - the sessions were photographed in CW a few months back).

It's not immediately obvious to me what Josh has to gain. On the other hand, Peters has plenty to lose if he's covered up.


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #716 on: 21 March, 2017, 03:38:48 pm »
It's very hard to know how, by whom,  and why the story actually broke. Did he break it, or was unearthed by a journalist?

There are a gamut of possible motivations for him breaking it, such as payment, revenge, a desire for exposure, a desire to help others as well as the fact that somebody else may have leaked the story and forced him to talk about it on the best terms he could for himself.

Peters may be telling the truth, or he may not. It could be redolent or symptomatic of a dishonest and unethical team, of the type that lead Wiggins and his doctor to cheat the TUE system, or we may just have two examples of two individuals acting more or less individually. We don't know yet.

The only thing I think about all of these issues is that unlike Veloman et al (sorry to impune your good character and reputation again) who view this as an open and shut, black and white issue, I think we are still in a process. I don't think we know all there is to know about what has been going on.

slope

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #717 on: 21 March, 2017, 04:00:44 pm »
It could be redolent or symptomatic of a dishonest and unethical team, of the type that lead Wiggins and his doctor to cheat the TUE system

But let's not forget the UCI (and their Dr Mario) openly ALLOWED/PASSED/GRANTED the Wiggins TUEs

simonp

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #718 on: 21 March, 2017, 04:08:50 pm »
openly?

Why did we only hear about it after a hack?

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #719 on: 21 March, 2017, 04:55:07 pm »
Since when has ethics had anything to do with sport, particularly professional sport? Winning for your sponsors is what counts (which means exposure by whatever means) and anything which isn't clearly against the rules must be not against the rules.

IMO you are wrong there for a number of reasons. Perhaps most of all, pro sport doesnt exist without fans, and many fans have some sort of "sporting values" or "ethics" if you prefer. Debate is a major part of the fan experience (which drives viewing and ticket purchases), and if we just discussed the dry facts, there wouldn't be very much debate, punditry, newspaper coverage, books written ... etc ... etc ...

I am not sure to what extent the fans are actually a driving force in pro road-racing; it's basically free spectacle.
We must be talking at cross-purposes, because that seems to make no sense! :)

Without fans watching - whether they pay or not - you would not have sponsors. => no wages, no professional cycle-sport.

Yes, I am sure I have a much narrower definition of fan than you. I don't count the hundreds who watched the TdF tt between Bergerac and Périgeux with me as necessarily fans - nor the millions who are fed TdF bulletins after the news on their tellys. I certainly wouldn't call my mother-in-law a fan of pro-cycling when she takes the bus to watch the Tour of Limousin finish (which is 300m from our house). (On the other hand the supporters of the CSP are quite definitely fans.)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #720 on: 21 March, 2017, 06:48:26 pm »
Sky must join anti-doping group to silence doubters, says president

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/21/team-sky-cyling-anti-doping-group-silence-doubters-credibility?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Sky not joining the MPCC meant that Wiggins could abuse Kenacort to win his TdF, Sky could dish out the Tramadol, and Froome doesn't have to do extra anti-doping tests.

Can't imagine why Sky never joined, can you?

Oh...it's because they have a strict ZTP policy.  ;D

Mind you...if they'd joined the MPCC they could have saved money by buying 52 doses of Kenacort instead of 55 (because they'd still have need 52 doses to treat all those non-riding staff and Freeman's private patients 😉 ) and there probably wouldn't have been an accidental delivery of testosterone.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #721 on: 21 March, 2017, 07:07:06 pm »
Sky must join anti-doping group to silence doubters, says president

Surely Roger Legeay has his own credibility issues to worry about.

Sky aren't members of the Tufty Club either, which clearly suggests a wanton disregard for the safety of children crossing the road. The callous bastards.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

slope

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #722 on: 21 March, 2017, 07:22:56 pm »
meant that Wiggins could abuse Kenacort to win his TdF

Which was allowed under the 'rules' by the UCI and their Dr Zorzoli at the time

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #723 on: 21 March, 2017, 08:09:50 pm »
meant that Wiggins could abuse Kenacort to win his TdF

Which was allowed under the 'rules' by the UCI and their Dr Zorzoli at the time

Not "openly" though, as you claimed earlier.
The sound of one pannier flapping

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #724 on: 21 March, 2017, 08:11:50 pm »
If the rules had actually been followed, the drug was allowed. They weren't and it wasn't.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...