Interesting or unusual planes?

[Oscar's dad]

Interesting.  Thanks.  It's a joy of this forum that there are people with all sorts of experience to draw on, and I thought it was a fair bet that you'd played with a VC-10.  Magnificent beast to look at, but it sounds like it lived up to the promise in flight.

In the late 60s and early 70s I remember with great affection flying home from Ghana on both Ghana Airways and BOAC VC10s.  I would have been between 5 and 8 years old and immensely proud of my BOAC young flyers log book which the captain would sign.  You also had a badge; I’m sure both are still in the loft.  If you were very lucky you'd be offered a brief visit to the cockpit.  Viewed through the rose tinted specs of an aeroplane mad young lad I remember flying long haul being incredibly exciting and glamorous – not like it is these days. 

I think the PLO blew up one of Ghana Airway’s VC10s in the Sahara.

[Steph]

I said it quite deliberately, as it's usually accepted that the Il-62 was a copy, though I'm not sure of the chronology.

Not at all. The Il had features that the Vickers copied. I flew back from Singapore on a VC10, but two and a half years earlier I flew out on a Britannia. The actual aircraft, the very one, is at Duxford. I walked through it, looking for the patch of toilet cubical carpet that my ten-year-old knees spent most of the flight on.

Give me a VC10 any day over the Bristol

[clarion]

I don't think so.  Though I'm normally dubious about accusations of Soviet copying, in this case the VC10 was conceived in the 1950s and flew in 1962.  Wikipedia says that the Il-62 was conceived in 1960 and flew in 1963.

[TimC]

Interesting.  Thanks.  It's a joy of this forum that there are people with all sorts of experience to draw on, and I thought it was a fair bet that you'd played with a VC-10.  Magnificent beast to look at, but it sounds like it lived up to the promise in flight.

In the late 60s and early 70s I remember with great affection flying home from Ghana on both Ghana Airways and BOAC VC10s.  I would have been between 5 and 8 years old and immensely proud of my BOAC young flyers log book which the captain would sign.  You also had a badge; I’m sure both are still in the loft.  If you were very lucky you'd be offered a brief visit to the cockpit.  Viewed through the rose tinted specs of an aeroplane mad young lad I remember flying long haul being incredibly exciting and glamorous – not like it is these days. 

I think the PLO blew up one of Ghana Airway’s VC10s in the Sahara.

Those VC10s you flew on almost certainly ended up in the RAF, and may even be one of the few still flying now.

[TimC]

I don't think so.  Though I'm normally dubious about accusations of Soviet copying, in this case the VC10 was conceived in the 1950s and flew in 1962.  Wikipedia says that the Il-62 was conceived in 1960 and flew in 1963.

The IL-62 did indeed come after the VC10, but the development was so close chronologically that it's likely the similar configuration was driven by two independent design groups answering the same problems the same way. Rear mounted engine configurations had already become popular due to the benefits of keeping a clean wing, and the engines available demanded four being used to drive aeroplanes of that size.

The Super VC10 did use some wing technology that had been developed for the IL-62, but that was after both aircraft had been flying a while. The IL-62 was a very successful aeroplane, indeed many IL-62Ms are still flying. It looks a bit agricultural compared to the prettier VC10, but it works!

[clarion]

It's astonishing that (until recently), the RAF was flying aircraft derived from 1950s airliners.  Mind you, the Shack was flying into the 90s, wasn't it?

[Bledlow]

Once again no photo (too slow again)m but just the other day, flying over Northallerton, I saw a SAAB Viggen. Either that or it was a Eurofighter, I have only jusst realised that they both have a similar profile.

I think all the Viggens have been retired by now. Its replacement the SA39 Gripen looks fairly similar though.

Only in the sense that they're both deltas with canards.
Viggen


Gripen

[tiermat]

It was a Viggen then, the wings and canards (I am guessing, not being up on these things, they are the smaller wings just under the cockpit) were not as wide but longer than on the Gripen.

It made a fantastic sound as it turned and thrust off away from town, I am guessing it was using NTR as it's turn point...

[spesh]

Colour me sceptical, but the only info on Viggens flying in the UK this year that I can find is the rumour that the Jersey International Air Display (which isn't until September) may be looking to book the Swedish Air Force Historic Flight's Viggen, which they only started flying in March...

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40534&start=75

Recognition notes:

The Viggen and Gripen are both single-engined, with the canards mounted just behind the air intakes, which are either side of the cockpit.

Typhoon is twin-engined, and has lot more wing area relative to aircraft size than either Swedish type, with the relatively small and swept-back canards mounted on the nose, just ahead of the cockpit.

http://www.deroeck.co.uk/planes/Eurofighter-Typhoon-01.html

[pcolbeck]

It was most likely a Grippen. Some operate out of the UK as the Empire Test Pilots School based at Boscombe Down uses Grippens.

[TimC]

It's astonishing that (until recently), the RAF was flying aircraft derived from 1950s airliners.  Mind you, the Shack was flying into the 90s, wasn't it?

I think it retired about 1990. I held with 8 Sqn at Lossiemouth for a few weeks in 1979 while waiting for a Jetstream course. I never got to fly the Shack, but I flew in it several times. Wonderful fun! The AEW3 was around 35 years old when it retired. The C130K Hercules made it to 46 years. The oldest VC10s are 46 now, but are unlikely to make 50. Aircraft entering service now are expected to see 60 years or more.

[bomber]

The B52s maiden flight was 60 years ago now, and that's not expected to retire until 2045:-O

[PeteB99]

Once again no photo (too slow again)m but just the other day, flying over Northallerton, I saw a SAAB Viggen. Either that or it was a Eurofighter, I have only jusst realised that they both have a similar profile.

I think all the Viggens have been retired by now. Its replacement the SA39 Gripen looks fairly similar though.

Only in the sense that they're both deltas with canards.

Indeed - at the range and angle those photos are taken the aircraft are quite different - and much smaller than a Typhoon.

From a couple of miles away side on they may well look similar.

Add in the fact that the Gripen is a current production aircraft and that as Saab have a tie in with BAE one of them is quite likely to be swanning around North Yorkshire.

Not that it actually matters of course

[Rig of Jarkness]

Slightly off topic but may be of interest.

This is the view from Cairnsmore of Fleet, a seemingly innocuous hill of 2,300 ft overlooking the Cree Estuary in Dumfries & Galloway.



A granite memorial on the summit records the deaths of no less than 25 airmen from 8 crashes on its slopes, 5 of which appear to have been of training flights from local airfields.  I wonder what made the hill so hazardous ?



Transcription -
ERECTED IN MEMORY OF AIRMEN KILLED ON THIS HILL
CAIRNSMORE OF FLEET

First Crash:
LEUTNANT A ZEISS AGE 25
UNTEROFFIZIER G T VON TURCKHEIM AGE 31
UNTEROFFIZIER W HAJESCH AGE 21
UNTEROFFIZIER W MECHSNER AGE 23
FROM NG 1 STAFFEL OF KAMPFGESCHWADER 4 SOESTERBURG AIR BASE HOLLAND
THE AIRCRAFT A HEINKEL III H4 CRASHED ON 8TH AUGUST 1940

Second Crash:
AIRCRAFTSMAN D J THOM AGE 20
FROM NO 10 AIR OBSERVER SCHOOL RAF DUMFRIES
THE AIRCRAFT BLACKBURN BOTHA L6539 CRASHED ON 2ND MARCH 1942

Third Crash:
SERGEANT A C H ALLEN AGE 21
MISTER W PATERSON AGE 31
FROM NO 1 OBSERVER ADVANCED FLYING UNIT OF RAF WIGTOWN
THE AVRO ANSON AIRCRAFT W2640 CRASHED ON 17TH APRIL 1942

Fourth Crash:
FLIGHT SERGEANT B H VYE RCAF AGE 21
SERGEANT A W HAWKES AGE 29
LEADING AIRCRAFTSMAN R D HUME AGE 22
LEADING AIRCRAFTSMAN G A HORNE AGE 20
AIRCRAFTSMAN G O M RAWSON AGE 20
FROM NO 9 AIR GUNNERS SCHOOL RAF LLANOWROG
THE AVRO ANSON DJ126 CRASHED ON 22ND SEPTEMBER 1942

Fifth Crash:
PILOT OFFICER J M COOLEY RCAF AGE 30
WARRANT OFFICER J J M WARD AGE 23
FLIGHT SERGEANT M C SIMPSON RCAF AGE 19
FROM NO 10 OBSERVER ADVANCED FLYING UNIT RAF DUMFRIES
THE AIRCRAFT EG485 AVRO ANSON CRASHED ON 22ND FEBRUARY 1944

Sixth Crash:
SERGEANT W A EDWARDS AGE 23
SERGEANT H W G RENNISON AGE 31
SERGEANT R O BEGGS RNZAF AGE 29
FLIGHT SERGEANT B B HAYTOM AGE 21
FLIGHT SERGEANT A W WAUCHOPE RAAF AGE 27
FRON NO 4 OBSERVER ADVANCED FLYING UNIT RAF WEST FREUGH
ANSON AIRCRAFT N9589 CRASHED ON 12TH JUNE 1944

Seventh Crash:
FLIGH SERGEANT R S T HIDE AGE 22
PILOT OFFICER A A GOODILL RCAF AGE 26
SERGEANT T J MALONE AGE 24
FROM NO 1 OBSERVER ADVANCED FLYING UNIT RAF WIGTOWN
AVRO ANSON W5140 CRASHED ON THE 9TH JULY 1944

Eighth Crash:
CAPTAIN T J SEAGREN USAF AGE 26
CAPTAIN R V SPALDING USAF AGE 31
1ST TACTICAL RECONNAISANCE SQUADRON RAF ALCONBURY
THE AIRCRAFT A McDONNELL DOUGLAS PHANTOM RF4C 68 0566 CRASHED ON 28TH MARCH 1979

[PeteB99]

About 15 years ago I went up Cairnsmore of Fleet early one morning. Got to the top about 9 am to find that someone had been up there already that morning to lay some fresh flowers on the memorial.

People still care.

[Salvatore]

A granite memorial on the summit records the deaths of no less than 25 airmen from 8 crashes on its slopes, 5 of which appear to have been of training flights from local airfields.  I wonder what made the hill so hazardous ?

I imagine it's because it's the first high ground you meet if you've flown from the SW across the Irish Sea. The Black Mountain at the western end of the Brecon Beacons is in a similar position in relation to the Bristol Channel and is also strewn with aircraft wreckage.

[Bledlow]

It was most likely a Grippen. Some operate out of the UK as the Empire Test Pilots School based at Boscombe Down uses Grippens.

The EPTS Gripens  are actually based in Sweden. The EPTS sends instructors & students to a SAAB facility at Linköping & the Swedish AF base at Såtenäs for courses.

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Air/Gripen-Fighter-System/Gripen-for-ETPS/Gripen-in-operation/

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Now then chaps

Some more interesting pics taken at the RAF Coningsby "Enthusiasts Day" on Friday last that I managed to get a ticket for.
First is a line of Typhoons with a Tornado stuck on the end. A bit boring but not when you are standing next to them on the pan.



Next a 19 Sqdn Hawke T2



Some Gate Guardians on the Station
29 Sqdn Lightning



11Sqdn Lightning



Tornado F3 on the main gate



Phantom on the main gate



3 Sqdn Harrier



Tornado Role Demo



And again !



Two seat Sea Fury taken on Saturday during the "Friends and Families Day"



And again a bit lower !



I missed taking pics of the Typhoon display and the Red Arrows cos it was hosing it down and the visibility was zilch ! (and I didnt want to get my camera soaked)
The VC10 was here again after doing the flypast at Buck House complete with drogues trailing and two Typhoons in close attendance.
Quite a good weekend really 

Cheers

Dave Yates

[TimO]

I remember watching two Tornados taking off together from Farnborough, the day after the air show, presumably off on their way home, and that was a pretty dramatic sight.  They seemed to do it with the "pedals to the metal", and you could easily see shock diamonds in their exhausts.  It was probably more impressive than their displays the previous day!

It's nice to see those Lightnings, although it would better if they were flying.  I saw, what I believe was the last Lightning flying in the UK, at the RIAT at Fairford a few years back, immediately before it left the country.  In many respects a bit useless as a weapons platform, but insanely impressive doing a vertical climb.

[clarion]

The spec for the Lightning was essentially for a way to get a limited amount of weaponry to high altitude as quickly as possible.  So it's basically engines and fuel, with a little bit of wing.  The pilot is almost an afterthought.

Just to say that I love Sea Furies.  There's something about the proportions that make it just look 'right'.

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Just to say that I love Sea Furies.  There's something about the proportions that make it just look 'right'

In the sky, yes, but sat next to a Spitfire (Mk9) on the ground it did look a bit of a brute !

Dave Yates

[spesh]

Some good stuff there. The Lightning's story is quite interesting - the design was thought so radical that the RAE commissioned Shorts to produce a test plane to show English Electric where they had cocked up the configuration, only the test flights confirmed the concept. 

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/lightning/history.php

Some of the stuff that Flight Lieutenant Mike Hale got up to with the Lightning makes for fun reading, too.

http://www.lightning.org.uk/oct04sotm.html

[Exit Stage Left]

The Lightning was a successful plane, but the Canberra was the most significant aircraft to bear the English Electric name. Obviously I prefer their cookers and refigerators, but each to their own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Canberra

[TimC]

The spec for the Lightning was essentially for a way to get a limited amount of weaponry to high altitude as quickly as possible.  So it's basically engines and fuel, with a little bit of wing.  The pilot is almost an afterthought.

Just to say that I love Sea Furies.  There's something about the proportions that make it just look 'right'.

My Dad might resent being described as an afterthought!

The Lightning was far from useless as a weapons platform, though it inevitably compares poorly with modern aircraft. The AI23 was a very advanced radar in its day, and the Firestreak was as good as IR missiles got at the time - the later Red Top was less wonderful compared to the then-new AIM9. The Lightning was also remarkably manoeuvrable - somewhere, I have gunsight film of an F16 being comprehensively waxed by a well-flown Lightning! The best of the bunch was the FMk2A, which was only used in RAF Germany by 19 and 92 Sqns.

[TimO]

The Lightning was a successful plane, but the Canberra was the most significant aircraft to bear the English Electric name. Obviously I prefer their cookers and refigerators, but each to their own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Canberra

Lasting until 2006 (in the RAF), it made the Shackleton's operation seem but a brief period.

That was of course the PR9, and I remember a tale of how a U2 pilot was annoyed, when he was told that he couldn't manoeuvre, because there was a PR9 descending from above him.