Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 532318 times)

hellymedic

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6075 on: 18 April, 2021, 07:50:00 pm »
Neoplasm = new growth ~= cancer innit?

Pleonasm = overuse of more words than is necessary.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6076 on: 18 April, 2021, 08:36:28 pm »
Pleonasm = overuse of more words than is necessary.
I see what you did there.
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Pingu

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6077 on: 18 April, 2021, 10:49:36 pm »
Pleonasm = overuse of more words than is necessary.
I see what you did there.

Me too also as well.

Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6078 on: 19 April, 2021, 01:18:42 am »
Pleonasm = overuse of more words than is necessary.
I see what you did there.

Me too also as well.

Helly's after that coveted position at the Department of Redundancy Department (prop. Captain Obvious).
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ian

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6079 on: 19 April, 2021, 09:40:29 am »
Oh, that Mark Forsyth... I read the Etymologicon. Found it very irritating... <checks notes> main complaint was that it read like it was all cribbed off wikipedia, with no primary research (which the author confesses to). Interesting but superficial. I have the Horologicon on my Kindle but have never got round to reading it.

For matters of rhetoric, I've always found the Silva Rhetoricae website a good source:
http://rhetoric.byu.edu

On pleonasm, I have a vague recollection of reading the phrase "pleonastic orgy" but a quick google doesn't turn up a source for that.

I think I liked it because it wasn't a hefty tome that spent it all its time quoting the classics, here's what Cicero said, basically a quick top-deck tour of the rhetorical landscape with modern examples. We didn't really cover this kind of thing in my comprehensive school. It was interesting how many we pick up through osmosis by reading, but I didn't have names for (or often realise they were rhetorical tricks). Of course, I've forgotten the names now.
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ravenbait

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6080 on: 19 April, 2021, 11:30:33 am »
Is it just me who thinks “pleonasm” ought to be an ailment afflicting the lungs then ???
Do we need a Meaning of Liff thread somewhere? Or is there one already?

Sam
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Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6081 on: 19 April, 2021, 12:35:30 pm »
Is it just me who thinks “pleonasm” ought to be an ailment afflicting the lungs then ???
Do we need a Meaning of Liff thread somewhere? Or is there one already?

Sam

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ian

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6082 on: 19 April, 2021, 01:17:35 pm »
Wait till you find out it's a federated authorization and authentication middleware system based on SAML.
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Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6083 on: 19 April, 2021, 01:39:14 pm »
Trample all over my dreams, why don’t you :'(
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Basil

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6084 on: 20 April, 2021, 10:12:38 pm »
"Derek Chauvin the former white police officer."

Heard several times last week.  Heard again tonight by the BBC.
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6085 on: 20 April, 2021, 10:37:29 pm »
Yes, Basil, that's a cracker, isn't it?  Actually, with today's verdict, he might feel safer if he was actually a "former white".  So much so, that I wonder if he'll actually get a custodial sentence.  I'm not exactly surprised at the verdict but how on earth you can lean on somebody's neck for nine minutes, watching him fading away and not at some point release the pressure without it becoming "intentional" murder, I don't know.  Is there a special case in US Law for "unintentional murder" - or is it something that has been invented for this particular case when it seemed that there was no way he could be found not guilty without the country going up in flames?  I admit I don't know the law in this case.  It just seems odd.

Edit:  Has Chauvin appeared in the "nominative determinism" thread?

Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6086 on: 21 April, 2021, 12:01:54 am »
Oooh yes, “the former $NATIONALITY $PROFESSION” really gets on my pecs, at least when used to describe people who ate'nt dead.  Wikinaccurate is full of examples, but there’s a curse that says if you change it the subject of the article will die PDQ.  At least, it did with Niki Lauda.
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6087 on: 21 April, 2021, 12:25:43 am »
Hmm, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that, but google tells me it was The Elements of Eloquence by Mark Forsyth
I have the box set of The Elements of Eloquence, The Etymologicon, and The Horologicon on one of my bookshelves, nestled comfortably between The Penguin Dictionary of Language and Attack of the Copula Spiders.

Sam
£782.99 on Amazon - used hardback.   :o

Paperback set £16.99.
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Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6088 on: 21 April, 2021, 01:33:57 am »
There are an awful lot of optimists flogging used books via the auspices of the Mega-Global Big River Corporation of Seattle, USAnia.  Back in 2014 I spotted someone asking £4,500 for a copy of Mark L. Dees' "The Miller Dynasty".
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citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6089 on: 21 April, 2021, 07:05:35 am »
Algorithms, innit.

It’s a quirk in the system - the prices are automatically generated, with a mark-up based on a price shown elsewhere. No human involvement, and what’s more the seller probably doesn’t even have the book in stock.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

T42

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6090 on: 21 April, 2021, 09:50:41 am »
"Derek Chauvin the former white police officer."

Heard several times last week.  Heard again tonight by the BBC.

"White former" sounds a bit awkward too.  And if you put "sacked" in place of "former"  you get "sacked white police officer" which to my ear sounds OK. "White sacked police officer" sounds as if someone's been painting his nethers.

They'd have done better with "ex-police officer". Oh well.
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ravenbait

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6091 on: 21 April, 2021, 01:43:06 pm »
Hmm, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that, but google tells me it was The Elements of Eloquence by Mark Forsyth
I have the box set of The Elements of Eloquence, The Etymologicon, and The Horologicon on one of my bookshelves, nestled comfortably between The Penguin Dictionary of Language and Attack of the Copula Spiders.

Sam
£782.99 on Amazon - used hardback.   :o

Paperback set £16.99.
JFC WHAT? Surely some mistake?

My mum gave it to me for my Christmas a few years back. Looks like it was around £35 when she got it.

Sam
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"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

ravenbait

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6092 on: 21 April, 2021, 02:05:35 pm »
"Derek Chauvin the former white police officer."

Heard several times last week.  Heard again tonight by the BBC.

"White former" sounds a bit awkward too.  And if you put "sacked" in place of "former"  you get "sacked white police officer" which to my ear sounds OK. "White sacked police officer" sounds as if someone's been painting his nethers.

They'd have done better with "ex-police officer". Oh well.
The Royal Order of Adjectives specifies the categories in order:

  • Determiner (articles and other limiters: the book, your car)
  • Observation or opinion (a genuine fraud, an interesting book, an expensive watch)
  • Size and Shape (tiny, fat, square)
  • Age (young, old, new)
  • Color (blue, sea-green)
  • Origin (American, Chinese)
  • Material (describing what something is made of: silk, copper, wooden)
  • Qualifier (final adjective, often an integral part of the noun: vacation resort, wedding dress, race car)

I think the issue is that the phrase elides "person who is a" after "white". Police officer is a job, not a flavour of human being. The phrase "white person who is a former police officer" is accurate and not awkward. If I'd been the editor, I'd probably have reworded it as "the white man, who is now a former police officer," which has the added bonus of hooking in the underlying story, although considerably longer. Brevity is not always best.

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6093 on: 21 April, 2021, 04:16:33 pm »
Glass houses and stones in your erudition, there, Sam!

Added bonus - just NO!

Edit:  Just been doing a little research.  It seems some think this is ok.  I uterly diskard them but in my defence cite the thread title!

ravenbait

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6094 on: 23 April, 2021, 12:45:24 pm »
Not entirely sure what I am being accused of there, Peter. But no bother, I was treating it merely as an editorial exercise.

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6095 on: 27 April, 2021, 02:06:30 pm »
Punctuation that makes me cringe -

Quote from: Random PR
Hi Amy,
 
Hope you are well? ...

Yes, I do hope I am well!

The unnecessary question mark makes it read more like a threat than a polite enquiry after my health.

PS my name is not Amy. Except at weekends.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6096 on: 29 April, 2021, 05:55:47 pm »
Quote
In a groundbreaking ruling, the judges of the Karlsruhe court, Germany’s highest, said the government now had until the end of next year to improve its Climate Protection Act, passed in 2019, and to ensure it met 2030 greenhouse gas reduction goals more immediately.
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fboab

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6097 on: 30 April, 2021, 09:52:33 am »
Punctuation that makes me cringe -

Quote from: Random PR
Hi Amy,
 
Hope you are well? ...

Yes, I do hope I am well!

The unnecessary question mark makes it read more like a threat than a polite enquiry after my health.

PS my name is not Amy. Except at weekends.

Somebody somewhere has told 'people' of a certain age (they're always in their 20s) that professional emails should start with a health enquiry.

I'm so tempted to answer them.  :demon:

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Regulator

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6098 on: 30 April, 2021, 09:57:09 am »
Punctuation that makes me cringe -

Quote from: Random PR
Hi Amy,
 
Hope you are well? ...

Yes, I do hope I am well!

The unnecessary question mark makes it read more like a threat than a polite enquiry after my health.

PS my name is not Amy. Except at weekends.

Somebody somewhere has told 'people' of a certain age (they're always in their 20s) that professional emails should start with a health enquiry.

I'm so tempted to answer them.  :demon:

I have to admit, now that we're back into contracting round and I'm dealing with people I haven't spoken to/corresponded with for a while, I do sometimes ask after their health in relation to the Covid pandemic.  But normally I'd never do this.
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I completely agree with Reg.

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Pingu

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6099 on: 03 May, 2021, 10:41:37 am »