Re: Mice in our kitchen

[TimO]

Yes! Success!

Using one of these

That picture is perhaps not quite as helpful as it might have been.

Although it's probably better than a shot of a dead mouse!

[Rapples]

Personally I find this thread rather hypocritical and amusing.

It's funny how some who have contributed are happy to condone the killing of a small furry mammal in the most grotesque, painful and cruel ways.

I though this board was supposed to be free of such discussion

[Rapples]

But then that's because you are remarkably stupid, Rapples.

Clearly one of us is

You kill foxes for fun.

Do I?  I don't think I have ever expressed that view, in fact quite the opposite I have never rejoiced at the death of another animal.

Unlike you

Yes! Success!

I'd much rather not kill mice, but they are crawling all over our food surfaces.

I'm sure they really aren't doing that much damage that you can't afford, after all they don't eat much, they aren't yours to kill.

You should just make your house mouse proof

[Julian]

Fun ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Necessity


On one end of the spectrum we have a community event involving dressing up and enjoying a ride with likeminded people.

On the other end of the spectrum we have a requirement to maintain basic hygiene in the kitchen.

If you're really keen on mice I'm sure Wowbagger will be pleased to use a humane trap and deliver them to your kitchen.  

[Wowbagger]

But then that's because you are remarkably stupid, Rapples.

Clearly one of us is

You kill foxes for fun.

Do I?  I don't think I have ever expressed that view, in fact quite the opposite I have never rejoiced at the death of another animal.

Unlike you

Yes! Success!

I'd much rather not kill mice, but they are crawling all over our food surfaces.

I'm sure they really aren't doing that much damage that you can't afford, after all they don't eat much, they aren't yours to kill.

You should just make your house mouse proof

I rest my case, m'lud.

[Rapples]

Oh dear

Perhaps you should look up the word hypocrisy

hypocrisy [hɪˈpɒkrəsɪ]
n pl -sies
1. the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc., contrary to one's real character or actual behaviour, esp the pretence of virtue and piety
2. an act or instance of this

You don't seem to have grasped it, yet are happy to thow insults around about me being stupid.

You "evidence" of my stupidity BTW were your arguments against foxhunting

[Wowbagger]

Oh dear

Perhaps you should look up the word hypocrisy

hypocrisy [hɪˈpɒkrəsɪ]
n pl -sies
1. the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc., contrary to one's real character or actual behaviour, esp the pretence of virtue and piety
2. an act or instance of this

You don't seem to have grasped it, yet are happy to thow insults around about me being stupid.

You "evidence" of my stupidity BTW were your arguments against foxhunting

Your stupidity is a continued failure to understand the difference, even when spelled out clearly.

[Rapples]

Ah, I wondered where ths thread had gone, moved and renamed.

I don't think the parallel with fox hunting is apt, myself.  The parallel would be putting a fox trap on the fox's route between den and supply_of_food_you_want_to_keep_it_away_from, then starting a thread on the effectiveness of said fox trap.

Well I wasn't trying to make that connection in that way, or sugest it.

My point is that no one on this forum made any comment about the discussion of painfully, maiming and even rejoicing in the death of a small furry mammal.  This on a board (Where the wild things are) where any suggestion of such things has previously been pounced on.

Of course the reason I find it hypocritical, is because of others views of me based on my approval of foxhunting.  Wow's insulting, inaccurate, and possibly libellous response is typical in that respect.

The suggestions to rid oneself of these pesky little sentinent creatures once the kindest option of poisoning had been discounted were as follows:

Firstly, obtain and introduce  one or a couple (foxhunting term ) of larger natural predators and encourage them to chase and tear the smaller mammal apart to eat it.  If this wasn't an option then laying a trap that catches and impails the animal by the nose or possibly elswhere for it to die a slow stressful, painful death, almost certainly suffering.

Having done that no steps appear to have been taken to find out where the cute little creatures were living or got in.  Therefore is it not safe to assume that once that mouse is dead another will move in to that territory so the whole process will start again.

I totally agree that mice and kitchens don't mix, it seems though that when another animal affects some people personally then their principles about the welfare and the way they respect other living creatures dissappears out of the window

BTW this isn't a personal attack on any one person, there are plenty on here who are happy to have a pop at me for being cruel, but happy to sanction what Wow did, and don't appear to see the hypocrisy

[fred the great]

Well said Rapples

I am loss to understand why some people, just a few fortunately,  deem it suitable to lower themselves to insults and point scoring when somebody expresses a viewpoint that they either don't understand properly or will not accept.

And the Forum rules specifically ask us not to do it

[Hot Flatus]

Well said Rapples

I am loss to understand why some people, just a few fortunately,  deem it suitable to lower themselves to insults and point scoring when somebody expresses a viewpoint that they either don't understand properly or will not accept.

And the Forum rules specifically ask us not to do it

Rapples is trolling, and that's fine, the forum is big enough to accept a bit of banter, and not for one second is he genuinely offended. He also understands the distinction between his involvement in fox-hunting, which is a recreational activity and not designed at ridding himself of a pest problem,  and Wowser's actual vermin issue.

[border-rider]

Rapples is trolling

Of course, but he's right in as much as this thread had gone into territory inappropriate for WTWTA, and it sits better here. 

[clarion]

I presume I am one of the people who Rapples refers to.

Yes, I am very quick to criticise anyone who supports barbarity, especially in the service only of entertainment.

But no, I haven't celebrated the killing of a small furry mammal on this thread.

In fact, I questioned its position in WTWTA.

So, no hypocrisy, and I will feel free to criticise Rapples every time he raises the same old boring distasteful and illegal practice.

[Rapples]

I presume I am one of the people who Rapples refers to.

Yes, I am very quick to criticise anyone who supports barbarity, especially in the service only of entertainment.

But no, I haven't celebrated the killing of a small furry mammal on this thread.

In fact, I questioned its position in WTWTA.

I missed your contribution, and it was that very point that it hadn't been questioned, so I stand corrected.

So, no hypocrisy, and I will feel free to criticise Rapples every time he raises the same old boring distasteful and illegal practice.

Actually, I didn't raise it Wowbagger did saying I killed foxes for fun, which actually I don't

Of course, but he's right in as much as this thread had gone into territory inappropriate for WTWTA, and it sits better here. 

I think I need to go and lie down in a dark room

Rapples is trolling,

You may want to call it that, I wouldn't.   You're right though in that I'm not really offended, but I do find the almost habitual insults and patronising of a select few on here a little wearing.

My point that you seem to have missed though in explaining what I'm thinking is why is it morally OK for someone to kill a mouse?  How do we define what vermin we are allowed to morally kill, and in what circumstances?

If as a person you take a stand that others do not have the right to kill vermin, why do you have the right to do so, just because it is affecting you personally?

[Julian]

Assuming that you're not trolling, and that you genuinely don't understand (which I think is quite possible) the difference is the absolutist approach. 

There are those on this forum - Gandalf I think is one - who believes that it is never okay to kill an animal for any reason.  I admire that stance but I think for most of us it's more nuanced. 

There are circumstances in which I'm prepared to accept the death of an animal, including for meat, but that doesn't by default mean that I'm always prepared to do so.  Cock fighting and bull fighting I think are cruel.  Likewise the recent upsurge in dog fighting.  I can't countenance the death of a creature for sport.  I will however eat meat, set traps for mice and I don't sweep the road in front of me to prevent the needless deaths of insects as the Jains do. 

The majority of people, as reflected in the views on this forum, have a similar line in the sand:  killing for sport is gratuitous and therefore on the wrong side of that line.  Killing for necessity is a different matter.

To take your position to its logical conclusion, opposing fox hunting should compel us all to take an absolutist approach to animal death, tolerating mice and avoiding stepping on ants.  But by that same approach, those who are willing to tolerate fox hunting should consider no death too gory or too gratuitous.  That doesn't work; I'm sure there are many fox hunters who would be appalled at the idea of bear baiting.

[onb]

I am at a total loss as to how anyome can draw a comparison between foxhunting and mice control ,and I for one would not consider myself one of the usual suspects .

[arabella]

<going off topic>
Time for a debate on "killing for sport" vs. "making sport of killing"
i e
Is the purpose of hunting (i) to have fun (aim) whilst killing a fox (incidental) or (ii) to kill a fox (aim) whilst having fun (incidental)?   Assuming we want to remove all fun then the only people who should kill foxes are those that don't want to.  This guarantees no fun will be had. 
<stop going off topic>

Is the whole thing a competition of man vs. mouse to see which can outwit the other, with failure being try again tomorrow (man) or death (mouse). 
Who chooses to compete here? The man (begone ye mouse) or the mouse (ooh look a good supply of food)
Is the decider the perceived necessity, in the eyes of society as a whole, of ridding ourself of the pest, and wheras a majority sees mouse-in-house = bad it's less clear for foxes.

By which I conclude that there is a difference of opinion as to whether fox hunting is (i) or (ii) above, and similarly a difference of opinion as to whether it's necessary to reduce the fox population on a regular basis to start with.

[Rapples]

Assuming that you're not trolling, and that you genuinely don't understand (which I think is quite possible) the difference is the absolutist approach. 

Thanks for the response, but actually it's not a lack of understanding on my part.  You haven't actually answered the points I raised, all you 've done is define your own personal parameters for when it is OK to kill an animal in your opinion.

You also have made the assumption that most people share your boundaries.  Many many people shoot and fish for sport for example, I'm sure they wouldn't agree with you.  You are right that there are very subtle differences but they cover a huge variation of opinions.

MV seems to believe it's general "cattiness" that keeps mice out of his garage.  Whilst there is some truth in that, cats tease, play with and kill mice, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Mice learn to fear cats by experience

Once you accept that in certain circumstances it is morally OK to kill an animal in a way you believe is appropriate, and you believe is neccessary, do you think it's OK to ridicule, mock, and be really quite blatantly offensive to someone else, who's boundaries of acceptabiliy and neccessity are different from yours?

 

[Julian]

Once you accept that in certain circumstances it is morally OK to kill an animal in a way you believe is appropriate, and you believe is neccessary, do you think it's OK to ridicule, mock, and be really quite blatantly offensive to someone else, who's boundaries of acceptabiliy and neccessity are different from yours?

Yes.

There was a court case recently of a man who killed a hamster by microwaving it to death.  I would have no problem at all mocking and even vilifying him.

Are you suggesting that you'd be tolerant of hamster microwaving just because you're okay with fox hunting? 

[Wowbagger]

Once you accept that in certain circumstances it is morally OK to kill an animal in a way you believe is appropriate, and you believe is neccessary, do you think it's OK to ridicule, mock, and be really quite blatantly offensive to someone else, who's boundaries of acceptabiliy and neccessity are different from yours?

Of course it is. That's surely your sole purpose for visiting this forum, isn't it, Rapples? Just like the fox, you enjoy it.

[Wowbagger]

Are you suggesting that you'd be tolerant of hamster microwaving just because you're okay with fox hunting?  

Maybe we should just stick to controlling vermin, unless of course you are just trying to avoid the question.

As long as you come out with points like this I will continue to call you stupid.

I thought you were just a troll, Rapples, but I genuinely believe you don't understand the difference between me wishing to remove the massive hygiene problem from my kitchen when we get up in the morning and find mouse turds on the cooker and you dressing up on a frosty morning to ride your horse across open countryside in order to witness a fox being torn apart.

I doubt that you have ever seen a fox in your garden, let alone in your kitchen. If you really try to exercise your poor brain, you might just appreciate that there's a bit of a difference in terms of the threat posed.

You suggested in an earlier post that I might try to make my house mouse-proof. I assume that was a serious comment? Once you've had a rest from the previous task, give this one some thought. It's an old house and mice can get in. Suggest a way of stopping them. By comparison, though, it's usually possible, in fact, not too hard, to keep foxes away from hens. Spot the diference?

I would imagine that those two herculean mental efforts will keep you occupied for most of the day. If you like, tomorrow I'll spell out some of the other differences between me killing mice out of necessity and you participating in a farcical would-be upper crust ritual.

[Julian]

Are you suggesting that you'd be tolerant of hamster microwaving just because you're okay with fox hunting? 

Maybe we should just stick to controlling vermin, unless of course you are just trying to avoid the question.

Edit: I'd suggest that someone who microwaves a hamster has some mental health issues, so presumably you're OK with mocking loonies

You said "an animal."  Not vermin.  Animals.  But if you want to take it to vermin only, I'll say that if Wow caught a live mouse and then killed it by microwaving it, I would have no problem mocking and vilifying that either.  Again, are you okay with mouse-microwaving just because you're okay with fox-hunting? 

And the court reports didn't mention mental health.  Apparently he was drunk.

[border-rider]

Thanks for the response, but actually it's not a lack of understanding on my part.

Which leaves the other fork in Julian's assumptive decision tree

all you 've done is define your own personal parameters for when it is OK to kill an animal in your opinion.

That's all anyone can do.

In  the past I've made a bit of a fuss when threads on urban foxes descended in to willy-waving about catapults and ball bearings, and I've also commented at length on the morality of random people using grey squirrels at target practice.  But I'd not object to controlled culls by qualified and careful/caring professionals where reds may be at risk.  I'd not myself use or condone lethal mouse traps, but then I'd not myself use or condone roast chicken.  I could spend all my time railing on  the food & drink board or I could accept that that place is appropriate for discussion of meaty foods in  the same way that this one is for people who have mouse problems to solve. Fox hunting with hounds finds its home in P&OBI, where it's been done to death.  None of it should be in WWTWTA if it involves animal nastiness, and now it's not.

You also have made the assumption that most people share your boundaries.

Not sure about that. I saw it as observing that that there's a spectrum of response on animal death issues, and that some parts of that (doing it for kicks, cruelty) are likely going to acquire more opprobrium than functional reasons or for example having your loved pet put to sleep if it is suffering.

Once you accept that in certain circumstances it is morally OK to kill an animal in a way you believe is appropriate, and you believe is neccessary, do you think it's OK to ridicule, mock, and be really quite blatantly offensive to someone else, who's boundaries of acceptabiliy and neccessity are different from yours?

If the way of the second person is cruel, or done for reasons of enjoyment, then I'd suggest that it's open to criticism.  As for ridiculing - that's maybe covered here

[mrcharly-YHT]

If the way of the second person is cruel, or done for reasons of enjoyment, then I'd suggest that it's open to criticism.  As for ridiculing - that's maybe covered here

I used to hunt (in Australia) small animals with a bow and arrow. The birds I shot were mostly classed as vermin or nuiscances.

I stopped when I was about 16 when I realised that it was mindlessly cruel and stupid.

My Dad used to foxhunt (on foot with dogs, none of your upperclass horse lot), grouse shoot, fish, etc. He stopped apart from the fishing when he was in his mid-twenties, when he realised it was mindlessly cruel and stupid.

We still killed animals - for food (sheep and cattle that we'd raised), and vermin where necessary. The day I stopped Dad from killing a snake in the forest was the first day he said I was growing up; I said that the snake wasn't bothering anyone (he knew I was very scared of snakes).
   
I wouldn't hesitate to kill a fox that was proving to be a problem. I really can't be arsed getting het up about banning or not banning hunting foxes with hounds; it's just mindlessly cruel and stupid.

[Rapples]

You said "an animal."  Not vermin.  Animals.

I did, but we are clearly discussing the issue of vermin a method of killing that is not covered by animal cruelty laws
 

And the court reports didn't mention mental health.  Apparently he was drunk.

I'd respectfully suggest that many hamster owners get very drunk from time to time.  As far as I'm aware they don't all go about microwaving their pets. 

[clarion]

I'm sure many people manage not to get dressed up and go hunting foxes, too.  What's your point?  If torturing or killing animals is OK for sport, then why do you, who so object to any shades of grey in Julian's post, object?

Why is foxhunting good and dog fighting bad?  Grouse shooting OK but bear baiting unacceptable.

A great many people get a lot of enjoyment from cockfighting.  And it supports the employment of a great many people.  What could the possible arguments be for banning it?

OK, foxes versus mice.  Both vermin, if you like.  Why is it wrong for Wowbagger to put a mouse in the microwave?*





* Disclaimer: I would be extremely surprised if this notion had ever occurred to the august fellow.  And, despite the inherently depraving nature of teh interwebs, I would be shocked if he now did so.  Mind you, I would also be shocked if anyone went hunting foxes...