Author Topic: The fascination of war films and books  (Read 7875 times)

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #25 on: 07 October, 2008, 11:06:56 am »
From what I understand from recent films.......

Only american soldiers sailors and airmen were involved in WW2
Only american soldiers seaman and airman did anything brave in WW2
All bravery on Land Sea and Air was performed by Americans
All secret work was done by americans
America saved the world.

(Did I miss anything?)



Burma was liberated single-handedly by Errol Flynn.  Important FACT*

* I saw it on telly, so it must be true.
Getting there...

Really Ancien

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #26 on: 07 October, 2008, 01:03:38 pm »
[
Burma was liberated single-handedly by Errol Flynn.  Important FACT*

* I saw it on telly, so it must be true.


Yes the 2.5 Million Indian soldiers rarely get a look in, maybe there's a Bollywood war movie about them.

Damon.

Really Ancien

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #27 on: 07 October, 2008, 01:09:19 pm »
A quick Youtube search reveals an episode of 'It ain't half hot mum' which touches on this subject, it should provide Flying Monkey with something to write about.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/NkWjwrQvHWQ&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/NkWjwrQvHWQ&rel=1</a>

Damon.

redshift

  • High Priestess of wires
    • redshift home
Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #28 on: 07 October, 2008, 01:27:48 pm »
The 14th (Indian) army has been referred to as the 'forgotten army', and the Burma campaign as the 'forgotten war'.  Even when reading Fraser's book, I found myself going 'why have I never heard of x...?'
L
:)
Windcheetah No. 176
The all-round entertainer gets quite arsey,
They won't translate his lame shit into Farsi
Somehow to let it go would be more classy…

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #29 on: 07 October, 2008, 01:53:28 pm »
I have never seen the fascination of war films (or indeed books) as a genre. There are exceptional examples of course

Therein lies the problem with "genre" as a concept, as far as I'm concerned - I don't get the idea of liking something simply because it conforms to an archetype. I like some war films but not others. I like some romantic comedies but not others.

But genre is not only an unhelpful concept, it can also be very misleading - what do Casablanca, Catch 22 and The Longest Day, for example, have in common apart from a WWII setting? Apocalypse Now, Jacob's Ladder and Platoon apart from Vietnam?

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Really Ancien

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #30 on: 07 October, 2008, 01:59:10 pm »
what do Casablanca, Catch 22 and The Longest Day, for example, have in common apart from a WWII setting? Apocalypse Now, Jacob's Ladder and Platoon apart from Vietnam?

d.


Can we have a clue? I'm struggling a bit with these.

Damon.

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #31 on: 07 October, 2008, 10:26:23 pm »
FM,

I agree the films appear to contain a high propaganda content, but that is also part of the psychological draw to them.  I have no desire to be running around getting shot at after watching one, but I do on the other hand stop and think about those that do simply from watching a film.

Jarhead was very similar to my favourite book - Sympathy for the Devil by Kent Anderson.  Here were two highly trained individuals that started to question the war and the ludicrousness of the situation.

I love reading but at present I don't have time to enjoy it.  I would have loved to read Jarhead rather than watch it, but hey ho.


I'm mid forties, so probably grew up watching the same war films as everybody else.   I remember as a child cheering when a German pilot was shot down in "Battle of Britain" only to be told off by my parents as "he was fighting for his country"...

I think the last war themed film I saw was "The Pianist",  I was watching the Germans shelling Warsaw the night we started bombing Iraq.... nowadays I try to avoid stuff like that.  I can't stop thinking about the ordinary people who's lives are destroyed, usually because of some scumbag politician.

Have you read the sequel to "Sympathy for the Devil" ?    "Night Dogs", in which Hanson/Kent Anderson joins the Seattle Police ?
Not fast & rarely furious

tweeting occasional in(s)anities as andrewxclark

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #32 on: 07 October, 2008, 10:39:58 pm »
Yes.  It is much darker.  I would like to get the short stories too, but haven't yet.

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #33 on: 07 October, 2008, 10:56:36 pm »
Yes.  It is much darker.  I would like to get the short stories too, but haven't yet.

I was reading a fairly scary article yesterday (Rubicon in the Rear-View, Part I: Militarizing the Police by William Norman Grigg) about troops coming back from Iraq & Afghanistan and being given accelerated entry into various US police depts. 

Didn't know he'd done short stories as well. Time to hit Amazon.
Not fast & rarely furious

tweeting occasional in(s)anities as andrewxclark

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #34 on: 07 October, 2008, 11:26:39 pm »
Have you seen the series Over There?
Set in Iraq, I thought it was pretty watcheable.

Jakob

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #35 on: 08 October, 2008, 02:00:11 am »
"We Were Soldiers" is my favourite modern war film. It depicts a single battle in the Vietnam war and shows the chaos and carnage of war along with the randomness of death. It shows the battle from both sides and does not really seem to have a political axe to grind as with so many Vietnam movies, it is instead about the behaviour of men under fire. On of the few films with Mel Gibson in that I like.

The book is very good, but the film is utter trash. Completely. (And it only covers the first half of the book).
It's a Randall Wallace screenplay(Braveheart, Pearl Harbour). The only thing that's remotely like the book, is the Sgt.
 It's the only movie I ever wanted to walk out of the cinema from.

"Black Hawk Down" wasn't the propaganda piece I expected. The release was rushed after 9/11, so I was expecting a big stars & stripes piece, but there was remarkably little of that.
 On the DVD one of the commentary tracks are by 2 of the soldiers who were there, which also makes for compelling listening. (And funny at times, as they are not afraid of saying when the film is taking liberties with what happened).

All-time favourite is probably "A Bridge too far". 
(Dr.Stranglelove doesn't really count as a war movie, otherwise it would be no1.)


D0m1n1c Burford

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #36 on: 09 October, 2008, 01:37:44 pm »
It's not much more than propaganda.

War films, like any other films, are just that - films.  They are meant to be enjoyed as entertainment.  They are not documentaries.  Some films have a higher degree of factual content than others.  There have also been many films about war that have conveyed anti-war messages - Deer Hunter, Johnny Got His Gun and Full Metal Jacket spring to mind. 

Jezza

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #37 on: 09 October, 2008, 04:08:20 pm »
I'm of the post-Vietnam generation, who grew up watching the movies that were made in the 1980s (The Deerhunter just scraping in for continuity's sake) as America came to terms with what it had been through, or more accurately, what it had done. The sense of alienation portrayed in these films was inevitably seductive to an adolescent, quite apart form any sense of empathy one might feel for a drafted teenager. So I watched Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, Apocalypse Now et al, and perhaps inevitably, subconsciously identified with the Americans.

I can't watch them any more. After several trips to peacetime Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, through the Tunnels of Cu Chi, along the DMZ and into the Killing Fields, those films make me so angry that I have to switch them off. It's the self-indulgence of them, the incessant portrayal of America as a victim, which grates so much. For sure, they are considerably more watchable than "Comrades marching towards the front", or "Women's Brigade of Da Nang, Onwards!", and I can understand the alienation of a 19-year-old GI from some shit-kicking Midwestern dorp who found himself in a firefight in the Mekong Delta, then, years later, getting flashbacks in his local bar.

But the Viets are inevitably portrayed as sub-human in a way that feels horribly like the old Tojo posters of the Second World War. The sadistic camp guards of The Deerhunter, the primitive Montagnards of Apocalypse Now surrounding Kurtz, the double-crossing ARVN in the execrable TV show Tour of Duty. Even self-proclaimed anti-war films like Platoon portrayed the locals as possessing some kind of innate Oriental cruelty that began to contaminate good old American boys into commiting atrocities. Rarely, if ever, did any of these films dwell on the real victims: the Vietnamese, or begin to show them as fellow human beings, capable of suffering and pain just like any other.



 

Really Ancien

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #38 on: 09 October, 2008, 05:50:08 pm »
Well said Jezza, curiously one of the few films to engage with the Vietnamese is Good Morning Vietnam, and it has a good soundtrack too.

Damon.

blackpuddinonnabike

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #39 on: 09 October, 2008, 05:52:45 pm »
Well said Jezza, curiously one of the few films to engage with the Vietnamese is Good Morning Vietnam, and it has a good soundtrack too.

Damon.

I was reading Jezza's post and the immediate film that had sprung to mind as a little bit more humanising of the Vietnamese was Good Morning Vietnam. It kinda starts with that initial belief and stereotyping (by the characters) before the descent of the Americans and the 'Who is the enemy?' conversation in the back alleyway.

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #40 on: 09 October, 2008, 08:18:45 pm »
Sympathy for the Devil may appeal to you Jezza, based on your post above.
It is not your normal war book.  Far from it.
Many of the integral characters are Montangard Tribesmen.

Montagnard - French Lit. "Mountaineer" Originally from Polynesia, they were the original inhabitants of the coastal region of Vietnam

The book is from the view of a Special Forces cadre and they are heavily entwined with the Montagnards.  They both loathe the regular army.


D0m1n1c Burford

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #41 on: 09 October, 2008, 08:25:34 pm »
Rarely, if ever, did any of these films dwell on the real victims: the Vietnamese, or begin to show them as fellow human beings, capable of suffering and pain just like any other.

Hardly surprising since most films about the Vietnamese war have been made by Americans. 

Flying_Monkey

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #42 on: 09 October, 2008, 10:46:39 pm »
It's not much more than propaganda.

War films, like any other films, are just that - films.  They are meant to be enjoyed as entertainment.  They are not documentaries.  Some films have a higher degree of factual content than others.  There have also been many films about war that have conveyed anti-war messages - Deer Hunter, Johnny Got His Gun and Full Metal Jacket spring to mind. 

Your reply suggests that you don't understand the term 'propaganda' and why I used it in the context of that particular film. And, BTW, nothing is 'just' anything, I'm afraid, however much you would want it to be so. Your view (in the first two sentences) is either very naive or simplistic here. Films like any other cultural product, have all sorts of purposes - overt and covert, explicit or implicit. They also exist within a cultural context that influences the way that they are viewed and understood by audiences. You then go on to contradict what you said in the first two sentences with the observation that many films about war have an anti-war message (well, of course)... and there was I thinking that they were 'just films' and weren't about anything... make your mind up!




Really Ancien

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #43 on: 10 October, 2008, 10:00:35 am »
I was in Durness in the far North West of Scotland in August, the RBS Screen Machine http://www.hie.co.uk/special-feature-rural-cinema-north.html  was parked up in the village square. We'd got talking to a couple of lads from Zurich the previous night and together we got talking to the Driver/ Projectionist, our friends jokingly asked if he had been to Switzerland, he said he had, on the way to Bosnia. The MOD had hired the truck to entertain the troops there, so we asked him what the troops liked best. The reply was Chicken Run, always went down a wow apparently. The mobile cinema had gone down so well that the MOD had bought their own and it is now in Iraq. On a different tack. I was impressed by a film on BBC 3 the other night about a soldier in Afghanistan, 'Jack, A soldier's story' largely from the filming point of view, It might come round again or it is on I Player and in 10 minute segments on Youtube. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oNvJf6Vj460&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/oNvJf6Vj460&rel=1</a>

Damon.

Jezza

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #44 on: 10 October, 2008, 11:09:16 am »
Rarely, if ever, did any of these films dwell on the real victims: the Vietnamese, or begin to show them as fellow human beings, capable of suffering and pain just like any other.

Hardly surprising since most films about the Vietnamese war have been made by Americans. 

Well, I was specifically talking about American movies made about Vietnam. However I don't think it should be automatically assumed that a war movie has to portray the enemy as somehow sub-human. The spate of films made in the thirty or so years after the Second World War underwent a transition from the kind of mindlessly jingoistic hun-bashing of the war years to something more considered, where you might actually see a degree of empathising with the other side. One that springs to mind is Tora Tora Tora, which clearly shows the Japanese perspective in a very similar way to the American one - they have heroes and villains, incompetent leadership and everything else.

Good Morning Vietnam does present a more human side, from what I recall, but it's definitely veering towards the 'war as entertainment' side of things. One of my favourite films is The Killing Fields - less of a war movie and more a movie set in a war - which traces the story of a friendship between an American and a Cambodian. Interestingly, while I found that it attempted to address the issues of cultural interaction between two people in a very bold way, when I watched it with my Cambodian friend she found it hugely patronising. 'Nothing to forgive,' says Pran at the end to Sidney Schanberg, who has come back to find him in a refugee camp, and she almost yelled out 'Yes there is! You caused this, then you abandoned us, and now you come back saying sorry to make yourselves feel better'.

I'm reading 'Dispatches' by Michael Herr at the moment, which is an excellent read. I shall look out for 'Sympathy for the Devil' now as well.         

D0m1n1c Burford

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #45 on: 10 October, 2008, 12:18:10 pm »
It's not much more than propaganda.

War films, like any other films, are just that - films.  They are meant to be enjoyed as entertainment.  They are not documentaries.  Some films have a higher degree of factual content than others.  There have also been many films about war that have conveyed anti-war messages - Deer Hunter, Johnny Got His Gun and Full Metal Jacket spring to mind. 
Your reply suggests that you don't understand the term 'propaganda' and why I used it in the context of that particular film......

I think I have understood very clearly indeed. 

And yes, of course a film can be both entertainment, and contain a message.  Even a kid's film like Shrek can manage that.


Flying_Monkey

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #46 on: 10 October, 2008, 10:54:27 pm »
I think I have understood very clearly indeed. 

And yes, of course a film can be both entertainment, and contain a message.  Even a kid's film like Shrek can manage that.

Well, then I have no idea what you thought you were trying to say in the original message. It clearly isn't what you actually said! This makes it rather difficult to have an intelligent conversation...

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #47 on: 11 October, 2008, 07:04:44 am »
I have never seen the fascination of war films (or indeed books) as a genre. There are exceptional examples of course, and many films set against the backdrop of war that are superb, butI find most 'war films' dramatically tedious, historically inaccurate and often morally offensive - Black Hawk Down being a case in point. It's not much more than propaganda.

I'd agree with your last point, and add Saving Private Ryan to the list, a film that purports to be anti-war but is in fact about American heroes.

As for the fascination of war films and books... it's a cultural reflection of the times.  Maybe a sort of catharsis or a re-writing of history to make it more palatable. I grew up in the shadows of WW2, yes, even in the 70's it loomed large in the collective conscience.  War comics were the norm and war films were on tv all the time.  That particular war has passed on with the generation involved in it.

<edit.... I've just read the remainder of this thread and seen that you've made this point very eloquently upthread>

Really Ancien

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #48 on: 11 October, 2008, 12:15:26 pm »

I'd agree with your last point, and add Saving Private Ryan to the list, a film that purports to be anti-war but is in fact about American heroes.


An interesting point about Saving Private Ryan is that it attempts to justify the US habit of killing their prisoners through the role of the German they spare. This policy is something the US usually glosses over. It's a point that most would not pick up from the film. Well produced propaganda can be enjoyable and informative, it should encourage us to explore the background and deconstruct the values we are being invited to swallow. But first we must see the film as it is without imposing an idealogical template over every incident.

Damon.

Zoidburg

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #49 on: 11 October, 2008, 01:16:43 pm »

I'd agree with your last point, and add Saving Private Ryan to the list, a film that purports to be anti-war but is in fact about American heroes.


An interesting point about Saving Private Ryan is that it attempts to justify the US habit of killing their prisoners through the role of the German they spare. This policy is something the US usually glosses over. It's a point that most would not pick up from the film. Well produced propaganda can be enjoyable and informative, it should encourage us to explore the background and deconstruct the values we are being invited to swallow. But first we must see the film as it is without imposing an idealogical template over every incident.

Damon.
In saving private ryan the men depicted are rangers - US army commandos

The depiction of them preparing to shoot a prisoner was simple revenge on there part and should not be confused with the practice of simply killing all the enemy troops as you take a position as part of of a final assault. Rangers, the US airborne, the Paras etc would all find them selves operating forward of there own lines and the tactical doctrine was and still is that if you take on an enemy position you kill everyone in it as you do not have the manpower to process prisoners and you can not take the risk of letting them go

The killing of unarmed prisoners did go on during the war, especially if the enemy put up to much of fight prior to being over run but it was not only the US who did such things