Author Topic: The fascination of war films and books  (Read 7884 times)

Really Ancien

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #50 on: 11 October, 2008, 01:55:39 pm »
A fair point Zoidburg, I was thinking of this passage from Naples '44 by Norman Lewis, a Field Security Sergeant in North Africa and Italy in WW 2.
'September 28th.
Admitted to the American 16th Evacuation hospital at Paestum with malaria......Most of the patients have battle wounds, and from several of these I have received confirmation of the story I found so hard to believe, that American combat units were ordered by their officers to beat to death Germans who attempted to surrender to them. These men seem very naive and childlike, but some of them are beginning to question the morality of this order. One man who surrendered to a German tank crew was simply stripped of his weapons and turned loose because he could not be carried in the tank, and as a result he is naturally a propagandist for what he accepts as the general high standard of German humanity.'

The Rangers would be a special case, but Saving Private Ryan brings the issue into the open more than is usually the case in US films.

The effect of the reputation that the US gained was to produce series of reciprocal atrocities, Malmedy was one committed by the SS. http://www.30thinfantry.org/malmedy.shtml  Here is an extract from an account of that incident.

'Between 1500 and 1600 hours vehicles of Kampfgruppe Peiper fired into the bodies lying in the field as they passed through the crossroads. But amazingly there were survivors of the massacre. Of the original members of the 1st serial of B Company a total of 55 men survived the ordeal. Some of the soldiers escaped during the initial attack and some escaped after they were captured. Some of them were recaptured by other German units, (they did not say anything about the shootings at Baugnez until after the war for fear they would be shot for being a witness to a war crime), and some made it to friendly lines to tell of the shootings. The last one took four days to make it to friendly lines.

When these men told their tale of the shootings at Baugnez, it enraged the Americans and inspired them to fight with conviction and with little compassion towards the enemy, especially towards SS or Fallschirmjäger soldiers. In fact, there has never been found a written order by a German commander to kill American prisoners, but there were orders written by American regimental commanders that directed that all SS and Fallschirmjäger would be shot on sight.'

Damon.




Zoidburg

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #51 on: 11 October, 2008, 02:37:56 pm »
The fact that a standing order was issued is one the US would like to forget

The SS and Fallschirmjager order may was probably well founded

The SS - well they were the SS so thats fair enough but the Fallschirmjager were known to be used for for special taskings and if they showed up it usually meant trouble, these are the same guys who rescued Mussolini and who also lead a large break out from the the eastern front after being parachuted in to relieve the encircled german forces, no mean feat

The Germans did operate the same policy towards the british SAS troopers as well




Really Ancien

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #52 on: 11 October, 2008, 02:50:40 pm »
Biscari was an instance of US soldiers being tried for shooting prisoners Biscari massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That was around the time of Norman Lewis's account in the campaign in Sicily. I'm not out to make any point other than that the issue is touched on in Saving Private Ryan and that that is unusual, I was sensitive to that point having read something of the background previously. The reference to Patton in the account of the Biscari incident reminds me of the fantastic central performance of George C Scott in the film Patton. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/YDecLiA_Qbw&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/YDecLiA_Qbw&rel=1</a>

Damon.

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #53 on: 11 October, 2008, 07:40:20 pm »
It's not just soldiers that US troops are known to freely dispatch.  I remember hearing of US troops amusing themselves by trying to hit japanese civilians as they committed suicide by jumping off a cliff.  Korea also, and of course by the time they got to Vietnam the media had a free reign to report this kind of thing.  I'm under no illusions that only the US are capable of this.

D0m1n1c Burford

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #54 on: 11 October, 2008, 07:49:44 pm »
I think I have understood very clearly indeed. 

And yes, of course a film can be both entertainment, and contain a message.  Even a kid's film like Shrek can manage that.

Well, then I have no idea what you thought you were trying to say in the original message. It clearly isn't what you actually said! This makes it rather difficult to have an intelligent conversation...

Propaganda can be used when making a film - such as in the 1945 German propoganda film Kolberg.  I have also watched many films with friends and family who have not been aware of the message contained within a film.  For them, it was entertainment only.  I would not judge them any less for this.

I also think that the message contained within a film is subjective - it can be interpreted differently by different people.  On this very thread, the film Saving Private Ryan has been described as both an anti war film, and a portrayal of American heroism.  The message is therefore not absolute.  It can be further complicated if mixed with other genres such as satire, which may make the message more ambivalent. 

Flying_Monkey

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #55 on: 11 October, 2008, 10:14:20 pm »
So you don't disagree with me after all. Good.  :)

D0m1n1c Burford

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #56 on: 12 October, 2008, 08:33:17 am »
So you don't disagree with me after all. Good.  :)

 ;)

Re: The fascination of war films and books
« Reply #57 on: 12 October, 2008, 11:21:37 am »
Quote
I also think that the message contained within a film is subjective - it can be interpreted differently by different people.  On this very thread, the film Saving Private Ryan has been described as both an anti war film, and a portrayal of American heroism.  The message is therefore not absolute.  It can be further complicated if mixed with other genres such as satire, which may make the message more ambivalent.

And surely it can be both at the same time. Individuals can be heroic even if war itself is an abomination.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.