Buy 2nd Etrex30 or something different?

[contango]

Even on the tandem we need a GPS each for DIY by GPS and it's time for us to buy a better 2nd GPS with a barometric altimeter.  We also need another cadence sensor (we are currently using a Garmin GSC 10 Speed/Cadence Sensor which only reports cadence with the etrex30).  I've recently been having reliability problems with cycle computers so I'm planning to mount both GPS's on the handlebars and use one for navigation and the other for stats.  One limitation of the Etrex30 is that it has buttons on the side so extra space is required when mounting next to other devices on the handlebars (I want to mount both gps's and a IXON IQ front light on the handlebars).

GPSMAP 64s / 64st ?
I'm tempted by a GPSMAP 64s or GPSMAP 64st as they take AA batteries and will charge them from USB power.  Compared to the Etrex30 are there any limitations, missing features or advantages?

Edge 810 / 1000 ?
The main reason I'm considering an Edge series as I think they support a greater range of cadence sensors.  Is the usb connection waterproof (i.e. can they be charged whilst riding in the rain)?  Can the track data be copied by USB mass storage from an Edge series device?  Compared to the Etrex30 are there any limitations, missing features or advantages?

Etrex30x ?
Has anyone tried the new model yet?  Aside from the screen resolution has anything else changed?  Is the screen better in practice?  Compared to the Etrex30 are there any limitations, missing features or advantages?

Something else ?

Thanks.

If we are spending £££ we want something at least equivalent to the Etrex30 or better.  We want it to be capable of navigation, compatible with cadence sensors and have a barometric altimeter.

OK, colour me confused here.

If you need a GPS each for track logging purposes then what you need is a cheap unit that records a track and little else. If handlebar space is at a premium, go for something that you can leave in a bag or pocket and ignore until the end of the ride.

Why do you need another cadence sensor - if you're on a tandem aren't both sets of pedals moving with the same cadence? You don't need the speed sensor of the GSC10 on the eTrex because it can calculate your speed from GPS data.

If you want one for navigation and one for stats, can you tell the eTrex to follow a route and switch to the "computer" page (or whatever the eTrex calls it) so you can see a page of stats and let the eTrex then give you a beep and a warning of upcoming turns? What stats are you wanting to watch while riding, and do you really need them all even when navigating a junction? I can see why you might want things like speed, cadence, heart rate etc but if the screen beeps and switches to junction view I'm sure you can cope without them for the time it takes to navigate the junction and then put them back on-screen once you're back to just chewing up the road.

If you've decided you just want a new toy then don't let any of us stop you, it's just hard to figure out what to suggest when it seems what you need is a cheap device that sits in your pocket but what you want is something a little more, well, shiny and techie.

For what it's worth I've been pleased with my Garmin Montana. It's a honking great thing that is pretty chunky on the handlebars, but since I'm pretty chunky on the saddle I don't worry about it. It's got a nice big screen so you can have four data fields and still show enough map to be useful. It supports ANT heart rate monitors and I believe it will also work with cadence sensors but I've never tried it so can't say for sure. I don't think it supports external speed sensors, but then it doesn't need to because it calculates speed itself.

It takes its own custom battery, or three AA cells (yes, three, don't ask me why). With the map page active I've found the custom battery usually lasts me around 12 hours (you can probably squeeze more out of it with other screens, and obviously the backlight will drain it faster).

The Montana is a dated unit now, I bought mine in 2011, so you can probably find a newer unit with more shiny. The last new shiny thing I registered any interest in (not enough to buy one) from Garmin was the Monterra, which was kind of like the Montana but with more Android support, more toys, and a shape similar enough to the Montana to think they were the same but different enough that you'd have to buy new mounts to put it on your handlebars. With something like that you could probably find/write an app to do pretty much anything you wanted, but I don't know what the battery life of the Monterra was like.

As a general rule I wouldn't buy anything made by Garmin until they've had chance to shake out the firmware bugs that seem to plague their new releases.

[TimC]

Wot contango said. However, the new Etrex 30x is available for £160-ish from Bike 24. That should cover your needs and wants.

[321up]

An etrex 30x would be a good option if I can find a small lightweight usb powered Ni-Mh AA battery charger, otherwise a GPSMAP 64s / 64st is tempting.

The second cadence sensor is for a different bike.

[contango]

I used a 60CSx for many years before buying the Montana, and was very pleased with it. Prior to the 60CSx I used a 60CS for a few more years. I gather the 62 series was mostly an improvement on the 60 and presumably the 64 is an improvement on the 62.

From what I can see of the different models the -st version probably isn't worth having because the only difference is a topo map of the region where you bought it (i.e. Europe / North America / some other options). Personally I'd go with a downloadable map so you've at least got the option of keeping it up to date.

Why do you need a USB powered battery charger? If it's to charge batteries for the GPS, why not plug whatever power source you're using straight into the GPS? Truth be told unless you're planning a truly epic ride the chances are you can take all the batteries you need with you and barely notice them in your saddlebag, and if you're planning a ride long enough that a dozen or so AA batteries won't see you through the chances are it's a long enough ride that buying extra batteries as needed isn't going to be a major concern.

[321up]

The norm for us is to be cycling for three consecutive days or more away from home and we do some much longer trips.  Running two gps devices with rechargables we might need as many as 12 AA batteries for three days if we don't recharge them.  We already carry a usb mains adaptor, rechargable usb powerpack, and we have a dynamo powered usb output.  Depending on which device we replace our 2nd gps with we might not need the usb powerpack in future.  The Etrex30 (and Etrex 30x) won't charge batteries from usb.  The GPSMAP 64st has more memory than the 64s, how much we will require is an unknown depending on how large the map files are and both of those will charge from usb.

Can the GPSMAP 64s/st be used whilst powered by usb and symultaniously charge its batteries?

I've found a possible usb powered AA charger thanks to another thread so we'll probably buy that and test it before making a final decision on the GPS.  Having both gps's powered by AA batteries gives the option of using disposables in an emergency.

[Karla]

An etrex 30x would be a good option if I can find a small lightweight usb powered Ni-Mh AA battery charger, otherwise a GPSMAP 64s / 64st is tempting.

The second cadence sensor is for a different bike.

If you're planning on charging your units as you go, why not just ditch AAs and buy something with an inbuilt Li-ion battery?

[321up]

An etrex 30x would be a good option if I can find a small lightweight usb powered Ni-Mh AA battery charger, otherwise a GPSMAP 64s / 64st is tempting.

The second cadence sensor is for a different bike.

If you're planning on charging your units as you go, why not just ditch AAs and buy something with an inbuilt Li-ion battery?

That would be more viable if the usb connections were waterproof so that they could be powered directly.  If we have to remove the gps's on a multi-day trip (e.g. when parked overnight) we would need a roll of clingfilm to waterproof them or a better solution to make them waterproof.  Charging batteries externally, either a usb battery pack or an AA charger can be done with them protected from the weather in a bag.  I doubt that the an Edge series would go a full long Audax day without boosting the charge (?) which means faff that we would like to avoid.  Also if the USB power source fails there is not option to use disposable batteries instead.  I don't think there is an ideal solution, I just need to decide what compromises to make.

[L CC]

We use AA powered devices and charge our cache batteries as we go-but that's mostly for phone power. Charging AA batteries is pretty inefficient use of resources, surely?
I use a power pack for my (old skool) etrex and it never runs out of battery (unless I forget the cable) because as it's on the rear bars it's more protected from the elements. It did all of LEL on the bars connected to a battery with no additional waterproofing. I don't even zip the bag it's in properly, as I keep other things in there I might want to get at, at a moments notice. (camera, nail file, Vitamin I, jelly babies)
Chris uses lithiums. Rechargable AAs have a finite lifecycle, most of ours are reaching it and if we're away for days we usually have an emergency AA light, so would be carrying plenty spare AAs anyway.

[contango]

The norm for us is to be cycling for three consecutive days or more away from home and we do some much longer trips.  Running two gps devices with rechargables we might need as many as 12 AA batteries for three days if we don't recharge them.  We already carry a usb mains adaptor, rechargable usb powerpack, and we have a dynamo powered usb output.  Depending on which device we replace our 2nd gps with we might not need the usb powerpack in future.  The Etrex30 (and Etrex 30x) won't charge batteries from usb.  The GPSMAP 64st has more memory than the 64s, how much we will require is an unknown depending on how large the map files are and both of those will charge from usb.

Am I missing something here? Don't 12 AA batteries still take up less space than a charger big enough to charge four of them at once? It sounds like you've got a pile of USB-related stuff that takes up more space than the batteries you're trying to save. Alternatively it seems like an easy enough solution to connect your dynamo USB into the back of one or both of your GPS units. If waterproofing is an issue perhaps you could wrap the GPS in a clear sandwich bag with a hole just about big enough to feed the USB cable through, then seal around the hole with waterproof tape/glue/whatever? Otherwise it seems like a growing faff to fuss with ever-more USB doodads when each one takes up as much space as half a dozen AA cells.

Any modern GPS worthy of the name will take SD/microSD cards so memory space shouldn't be an issue. My Montana dates back to 2011 and currently has a 16GB card in it. OSM maps for the entire UK with routing and contours take up less than 1GB. The OS 1:25000 maps for the entire UK take up something in the region of 10-12GB from what I gather.

[Ningishzidda]

In golf, there are foursomes and fourballs. In foursomes, two players play one ball with alternate strokes. In fourballs, well, it speaks for itself. The players in a fourball match hit their own ball and there could be four individuals or two teams of two players.

In Audax, there is no such thing as a team of two cyclists riding their own bike scoring on one brevet card. There is no such thing as two cyclists in a team riding alternate sections of an event sharing one bicycle.

There is however, a team of two riders riding one bicycle, called a TANDEM. They ride together joined by a set of metal tubes, scoring their progress on one brevet card.

OR do they need to carry two brevet cards to prove they’ve not sawn the tandem in two and welded on the appropriate missing halves somewhere along the route ??

[L CC]

OR do they need to carry two brevet cards to prove they’ve not sawn the tandem in two and welded on the appropriate missing halves somewhere along the route ??

Or started at point A on two bikes, ridden to point B and got on a tandem.
We've done this. More than once.

[Kim]

OR do they need to carry two brevet cards to prove they’ve not sawn the tandem in two and welded on the appropriate missing halves somewhere along the route ??

Or started at point A on two bikes, ridden to point B and got on a tandem.
We've done this. More than once.

Solo tricycles that can be easily coupled together to form tandems aren't that unusual either...

[Salvatore]

OR do they need to carry two brevet cards to prove they’ve not sawn the tandem in two and welded on the appropriate missing halves somewhere along the route ??

Or started at point A on two bikes, ridden to point B and got on a tandem.
We've done this. More than once.

Or one half of the tandem DNFing, and the other half continuing, either soloing the tandem or borrowing a solo.

[TimC]

Jeez, if someone wants to cheat at Audax - like by, um, taking two GPS devices and brevet cards round a ride and submitting the tracks as those of two different people (either on one or two bikes) it could be easily done. Surely Audax is based on honesty? None of these things 'prove' anything except that someone rode a ride.

[Karla]

I'm still waiting to hear from the OP that they've contacted their relevant validation sec and been explicitly told that they need to GPS devices, rather than just deciding to over-interpret the regs themselves.

As for the waterproofing thing, people who do it with USB seem to get away with it; I'd far rather carry round one USB charger pack to recharge everything that needs, rather than an AA charger and/or piles of spare AAs in my panniers.

[L CC]

I'm still waiting to hear from the OP that they've contacted their relevant validation sec and been explicitly told that they need to GPS devices, rather than just deciding to over-interpret the regs themselves.

We contacted our DIY organiser and were confirmed we needed to submit two sets of PoP when we started riding tandem. You get two brevet cards on calendar events, two timing chips on sportives. When you do TTs on a tandem you both get a number. It's a non issue, we needed two PoP when we rode together on separate bikes. Two entrants, two PoP.

[contango]

Jeez, if someone wants to cheat at Audax - like by, um, taking two GPS devices and brevet cards round a ride and submitting the tracks as those of two different people (either on one or two bikes) it could be easily done. Surely Audax is based on honesty? None of these things 'prove' anything except that someone rode a ride.

It doesn't even prove that someone rode a ride. You can easily create a GPX track using a route editor. Helpfully you can even set it to notionally slow down when climbing and speed up when descending so the track log looks like you'd expect it to if someone was actually on a pedal cycle.

It's good to have something that's at least notionally more than a totally honesty-based system but it seems to me if you ride around on a tandem it's stupid to require two GPS track logs - it's the sort of requirement that encourages people to fake stuff, and once you've encouraged faking it you've moved outside the honesty-based system. The most obvious way I'd see to fake it would be to tell your GPS to record a track point every second, then write a very basic script to split it into two files so one file saved points 1,3,5,7... and the other saved points 2,4,6,8...  You'd end up with two files showing the same route at the same speed, the same rest stops for the same duration, pretty much what you'd expect if you had two GPS units mounted to the same tandem.

[Kim]

Arguably that's not faking, that's time division multiplexing...

[Ningishzidda]

OR do they need to carry two brevet cards to prove they’ve not sawn the tandem in two and welded on the appropriate missing halves somewhere along the route ??

Or started at point A on two bikes, ridden to point B and got on a tandem.
We've done this. More than once.

Or one half of the tandem DNFing, and the other half continuing, either soloing the tandem or borrowing a solo.

What I was getting at,  , was a tandem pair ( or triplet ) are a team. If a tandem starts with two and finishes with one, as has been known, the 'Team' get the rewards.

OTOH, when tandem was an Olympic track event, both members of the team got a gong to take home, but the GB squad were awarded 1 silver medal for the event.
I just Googled the 1908 games. In heat 3 of the first round, the French pair came second with a 'bare wheel' 

Incidentally, the 20 km track event ( 12.4 miles ) was won by GB in a time of 34 mins 13.6s. Not far off my pace.

[T42]

I don't really understand why you need 2 GPSs to be able to see stats and navigate. The Edge series machines have a number of pages (mostly customisable) which can be scrolled to give an astonishing amount of information, and navigation instructions will override any stats page when necessary. However, if you want 2, you want 2!

They need two because they ride DIY Audax events on a tandem. We need two too  .

If the rider on the back doesn't need to actually see the computer, put it in a jersey pocket or mount it on some other bar? As long as it's switched on and not inside a metal box (so it gets a GPS signal) it can be anywhere on the bike, no?

Oh certainly, I wasn't suggesting C had to have possession of the device, only that each rider needs to be able to prove their passage, so as there are two riders, there should be two PoPs.

As I say, it's less vigourously enforced for calendar events where there are others around (including the organiser, quite probably) to corroborate one's claim to be on a tandem.

I could imagine situations where having the stoker able to navigate in fiddly bits would be a help.

On our Audaxish jaunts I carry the GPS & chum (on separate bike) just has a list of towns and roads to take.  A handful times - usually at night - we've taken the wrong road because it looked right and done a couple of K before I've noticed that we're off-track.  Having a second eye on the heading would be an advantage.

[321up]

OR do they need to carry two brevet cards to prove they’ve not sawn the tandem in two and welded on the appropriate missing halves somewhere along the route ??

Or started at point A on two bikes, ridden to point B and got on a tandem.
We've done this. More than once.

Or one half of the tandem DNFing, and the other half continuing, either soloing the tandem or borrowing a solo.

We ride as a team, all of our points are earned together on a tandem.  If we can't complete a ride together (or if one of us does not have adequate proof of passage) then neither of us want the points.  I'd rather loose a few points by being honest then have someone doubt everything that we have done.  If some people swap between a tandem and solo on a ride then its reasonable to require a proof of passage track each in that situation.  Now back to topic...

[321up]

We use AA powered devices and charge our cache batteries as we go-but that's mostly for phone power. Charging AA batteries is pretty inefficient use of resources, surely?
I use a power pack for my (old skool) etrex and it never runs out of battery (unless I forget the cable) because as it's on the rear bars it's more protected from the elements. It did all of LEL on the bars connected to a battery with no additional waterproofing. I don't even zip the bag it's in properly, as I keep other things in there I might want to get at, at a moments notice. (camera, nail file, Vitamin I, jelly babies)
Chris uses lithiums. Rechargable AAs have a finite lifecycle, most of ours are reaching it and if we're away for days we usually have an emergency AA light, so would be carrying plenty spare AAs anyway.

Agreed, Charging AA batteries is inefficient and powering the GPS directly would be most efficient.  But how reliable is it to power the GPS via a usb cable exposed to the elements?  Your experience suggests that it is not a problem but I read in a Garmin manual that water can cause corrosion if the usb connector gets wet.  There is also the risk of mechanical damage if the cable is pulled.  It would be inconvenient and potentially expensive if the usb connector on the GPS became unreliable or non-functional.

We use Lithium AA batteries for our etrex30 when on multi day trips, but I don't like the idea (cost) of running two GPS's on Lithium AA's.  It also seems that fewer shops are stocking Lithiums recently.

[Ningishzidda]

I don't really understand why you need 2 GPSs to be able to see stats and navigate. The Edge series machines have a number of pages (mostly customisable) which can be scrolled to give an astonishing amount of information, and navigation instructions will override any stats page when necessary. However, if you want 2, you want 2!

They need two because they ride DIY Audax events on a tandem. We need two too  .

If the rider on the back doesn't need to actually see the computer, put it in a jersey pocket or mount it on some other bar? As long as it's switched on and not inside a metal box (so it gets a GPS signal) it can be anywhere on the bike, no?

Oh certainly, I wasn't suggesting C had to have possession of the device, only that each rider needs to be able to prove their passage, so as there are two riders, there should be two PoPs.

As I say, it's less vigourously enforced for calendar events where there are others around (including the organiser, quite probably) to corroborate one's claim to be on a tandem.

I could imagine situations where having the stoker able to navigate in fiddly bits would be a help.

On our Audaxish jaunts I carry the GPS & chum (on separate bike) just has a list of towns and roads to take.  A handful times - usually at night - we've taken the wrong road because it looked right and done a couple of K before I've noticed that we're off-track.  Having a second eye on the heading would be an advantage.

He needs a potty.

[contango]

Arguably that's not faking, that's time division multiplexing...

Gesundheit.

[contango]

We use AA powered devices and charge our cache batteries as we go-but that's mostly for phone power. Charging AA batteries is pretty inefficient use of resources, surely?
I use a power pack for my (old skool) etrex and it never runs out of battery (unless I forget the cable) because as it's on the rear bars it's more protected from the elements. It did all of LEL on the bars connected to a battery with no additional waterproofing. I don't even zip the bag it's in properly, as I keep other things in there I might want to get at, at a moments notice. (camera, nail file, Vitamin I, jelly babies)
Chris uses lithiums. Rechargable AAs have a finite lifecycle, most of ours are reaching it and if we're away for days we usually have an emergency AA light, so would be carrying plenty spare AAs anyway.

Agreed, Charging AA batteries is inefficient and powering the GPS directly would be most efficient.  But how reliable is it to power the GPS via a usb cable exposed to the elements?  Your experience suggests that it is not a problem but I read in a Garmin manual that water can cause corrosion if the usb connector gets wet.  There is also the risk of mechanical damage if the cable is pulled.  It would be inconvenient and potentially expensive if the usb connector on the GPS became unreliable or non-functional.

We use Lithium AA batteries for our etrex30 when on multi day trips, but I don't like the idea (cost) of running two GPS's on Lithium AA's.  It also seems that fewer shops are stocking Lithiums recently.

The cable itself getting wet won't cause a problem - the only points of concern are the connections. If the cable is positioned such that water can run along the cable and get to the connectors that way you've got a problem, but one that's easy to solve.

If you put the GPS into a sandwich bag you can make a small hole in the bag, feed the USB connector through, then tape up the hole so it's about as watertight as it's possible to be. Since the connector will be on the underside of the GPS you won't need to worry about water flowing along the cable through the hole, so as long as you've positioned the hole and/or waterproofed it so that spray from the road won't get in you should be fine.

The other end should be easier still, presumably your USB dynamo is designed to work in the rain so won't be a problem, and if you're running a USB cable from the GPS to a USB power supply in a saddlebag somewhere you can do the same again, also making sure that the cable is positioned so that water would have to run uphill along the cable to get at the powerpack.

If the cable gets pulled at a weird angle you might damage the connector. So the answer is not to pull the cable. It sounds obvious, but when will you pull the cable? Make sure you use a cable that's long enough to give you a bit of slack, but not so long that you'll pull it hard due to nothing more than an oversight. If it's so tight it's constantly pulling the connector then it's too short. If your pedals catch on it and pull it then it's too long. Somewhere in the middle there has to be a happy medium.