Author Topic: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform  (Read 3047 times)

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« on: 23 August, 2012, 04:53:02 pm »
This is an excellent article from bicycling.com on fixing the drug problem.

I have a heavy prejudice against the likes of JV, Bjarne Riis and (everyone's favourite Olympian) David Millar.

However, he makes so much sense that I might have to review this attitude and dare to believe in the power of redemption.  It is long, but worth the investment of time.

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #1 on: 24 August, 2012, 01:56:34 pm »
That's a very interesting revealing article - much is explained, I think.

Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #2 on: 25 August, 2012, 06:45:55 am »
Great to start reading some open commentary. (There's more chat over on the Bye Lance thread)
I admire David Millar for his decisions and his stance generally, but I was disappointed that he ended up riding the Olympics after all the chat in advance about the 'non deserving' etc.
Reinforcement of the point JV makes, that timing (of everything) is everything!
JV also makes clear, in an unspoken way, that the pressure ultimately comes from the sponsors need for results.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #3 on: 25 August, 2012, 06:54:55 am »
Everything JV does and says follows, rather than leads, the problem/ debate/ issue. He talks a good talk but I don't think he is actually improving things much. The system goes on and JV doesn't rock the boat.

The ones making a difference are the ones naming names publically. JV has carefully never done that, unless his hand is forced by a USA-ian legal prosecution. That approach isn't a million miles away from the broadcasters, cycling press, cycling teams and suchlike who paper over credible allegations of doping.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #4 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:20:22 am »
agreed with LWB. I don't think he's driving the whole thing forward.
JV's talk is all very laudable but we need folks like kimmage standing up publicly naming the names.

agree with Mr M., I was also disappointed he rode the olympics. I think it showed a disregard for those who didn't want dopers in the squad. I think if he'd have more credibility for his anti-doping stance if he'd respected those wishes even in the face of wada rulings saying he's eligible

 

Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #5 on: 27 August, 2012, 07:02:27 pm »
There were three pages on Lance in the Sunday Times, one in the main section, two in sport. There was no mention of Paul Kimmage, who worked for the ST until early this year.
There was a piece fot the Guardian by Kimmage, mentioning Vaughters
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/26/cycling-clean-up?newsfeed=true
The current ST lead sports writer is David Walsh, who wrote LA confidential, speaking on Radio 5 he said this.
Quote
"Bradley Wiggins is the patron of the Tour and the whole sport. As the winner, he is the spiritual and almost moral leader of the peloton. As an anti-doping Tour winner, I would expect Bradley to say this is good for the sport … we want the guys who cheated to be outed, but there is not a lot of that coming from the sport and that makes me wonder if they are truly committed to cleaning themselves up."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/26/lance-armstrong-doping-whistleblowers?newsfeed=true
That's not dissimilar to what Kimmage has said about Wiggins.

Quote
In 2008, sickened by the continuing scandals, Wiggins side-stepped the Tour to concentrate on the Beijing Olympics, before returning to the race the following season with a new American team, Garmin — widely acknowledged as the most ethical team in the peloton.

But the headlines that July were dominated by another returning star — the seven-time champion, Lance Armstrong.
 
In his book this is how Wiggins described what happened next…
 
‘To spend virtually three weeks alongside him, competing directly with him for a podium place, was not something I had ever envisaged in my career, especially after he retired in 2005. It was the stuff of dreams and we began to develop a decent rapport,  enjoying a gossip early in the day before the racing kicked off properly.’
 
For those who had applauded Wiggins in Manchester, the love-bombing of the sport’s most controversial rider was puzzling.
 
Was it fair to suggest that there was ‘a one percent suspicion of doping’ on Armstrong’s teams?
 
Three of Wiggins’s team-mates at Garmin had witnessed it first-hand.

Had Armstrong ‘worked with certain doctors who were under suspicion of doping?’
 
Hey, even Lance didn’t deny it.

Where had the great anti-doping crusader gone? Was his fourth place in the Tour that year — an outstanding achievement — a sign the problem had been solved? And so it was for the three seasons that followed. The faster Bradley pedalled, the less we heard from the angry young man we loved.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2177405/Bradley-Wiggins-battle-cyclings-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html#ixzz24lo80hs8

That may be sour grapes from Kimmage, as he was no longer on the Murdoch payroll, but Walsh has not voiced any concerns over Wiggins in the ST, and the Guardian has only quoted Walsh speaking at the BBC.

The function of the Tour de France is to create copy, it is still run by the same group as the sports paper L'Equipe. During the period from Paris-Nice to the Champs-Elysee it is a sports story, then it becomes a morality play, until Paris-Nice starts again. Armstrong distorted the natural Rhythms of the reportage by breaking through into the human interest pages.


Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #7 on: 28 August, 2012, 12:32:27 am »
Good artcile here.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/kimmage-uci-needs-root-and-branch-surgery

And that's the key thing about the USADA action, it's shone a light on past events and current behaviour that amply demonstrate that the UCI is not fit for purpose.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #8 on: 28 August, 2012, 07:11:38 am »
And that's the key thing about the USADA action, it's shone a light on past events and current behaviour that amply demonstrate that the UCI is not fit for purpose.
There was a nice quote somewhere I read describing how having the UCI investigate LA was equivalent to letting the "the fox guard the hen house".


agreed with LWB. I don't think he's driving the whole thing forward.
JV's talk is all very laudable but we need folks like kimmage standing up publicly naming the names.

I think you are onto something there.  Vaughters is not a pillar of moral rectitude.  The more I read, the more I am impressed with the courageous stance taken by people like Christophe Bassons.  However, if I was to try and put myself in the shoes of a neo-pro, I would like to think that I would act like Bassons, but if not, then I hope I could at least hold the line that Vaughters has.  It would take a very strong personality to have resisted that poisonous fin de siecle culture.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #9 on: 28 August, 2012, 09:29:15 am »
It is all too easy to sit and point the finger from outside. I think Vaughters and Millar should be applauded for actually trying to do something. Far too often the perfect is the enemy of the good.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #10 on: 28 August, 2012, 09:41:27 am »
I'm not interested in the perfect solution but I am interested in improving the situation. The only people who have done that are the ones who have named names. JV hasn't.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #11 on: 28 August, 2012, 10:59:45 am »
Kimmage himself hints at part of the reason that respect for doping policy diminished in the peleton from the late 90s onwards in his article on Vaughters, when he wasn't alllowed to treat a bee-sting.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/26/cycling-clean-up?newsfeed=true
That came after Chris Boardman had retired after being diagnosed with low testosterone levels, which would have led to osteoporosis. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/diets/article-1227777/CHRIS-BOARDMAN-I-cycling-32-I-bones-old-woman.html
Boardman bowed out by taking the Hour record, the new UCI 'Sporting Hour'.
It would be interesting to examine the exact role of the riders' representatives, men such as Jens Voigt. Pro-Cycling is a sport, which should be subject to doping regulations, but it is also a very demanding job, and cyclists deserve appropriate occupational health provision. Anquetil is interesting in this regard.

Quote
Anquetil took a forthright and controversial stand on the use of performance-enhancing drugs. He never hid that he took drugs and in a debate with a government minister on French television said only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux–Paris on just water.
 
He and other cyclists had to ride through "the cold, through heatwaves, in the rain and in the mountains", and they had the right to treat themselves as they wished, he said in a television interview, before adding:
 



 
"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope."[29]
 

 

There was implied acceptance of doping right to the top of the state: the president, Charles de Gaulle, said of Anquetil:
 



 
"Doping? What doping? Did he or did he not make them play the Marseillaise [the national anthem] abroad?"[30]
 

 

He won Liège–Bastogne–Liège in 1966. An official named Collard told him once he had got changed that there would be a drugs test. "Too late", Anquetil said. "If you can collect it from the soapy water there, go ahead. I'm a human being, not a fountain." Collard said he would return half an hour later; Anquetil said he would already have left for a dinner appointment 140 km away. Two days later the Belgian cycling federation disqualified Anquetil and fined him. Anquetil responded by calling urine tests "a threat to individual liberty" and engaged a lawyer. The case was never heard, the Belgians backed down and Anquetil became the winner.
 
Pierre Chany said:
 

"Jacques had the strength - for which he was always criticised - to say out loud what others would only whisper. So, when I asked him 'What have you taken?' he didn't drop his eyes before replying. He had the strength of conviction."[31]
 
Anquetil argued that professional riders were workers and had the same right to treat their pains as, say, a geography teacher. But the argument found less support as more riders were reported to have died or suffered health problems through drug-related incidents, including the death of the English rider, Tom Simpson, in the Tour de France of 1967.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Anquetil

We don't know what discussions have taken place between the riders representatives, ASO and the UCI. Between the workers, the employers and the regulators. Kimmage is at his weakest here, as men such as Voigt represent dopers as well as clean riders.

Velonews rightly sought Voigt's opinion at race in the USA.

Quote
And then, there was Jens.
 
“(The) story’s going on for quite some time now,” said Jens Voigt. “I just hope it actually, finally, comes to an end. You’re probably not going to solve every single detail of it. But I just hope it comes to an end and we can, not start fresh, but now we draw a line — that is the past and we just let it rest in peace now. We just close that now. … And start looking forward and try to make our sport good, clean, proper in the future.”
 
Voigt is known for his candor and honesty. He’s the oldest rider in the race (40) and has said he hopes to leave a positive influence on the sport’s younger riders.
 
“Well, I hope that I’m allowed to say that I could be an example. I was cycling in the hard times. And I’m still here. I’m still alive, still able to do my job … to show the kids, ‘Look, there is no shortcut.’ It’s a sport where you need a lot of dedication. Hard work,” he said.
 
“And if you stick by the rules, you’re going to have a long career. People like you for that. I mean, maybe I’m not a multibillionaire, but I hope that I won the crowd. And that’s something important. Focus on the better part of our sport. Entertaining people. Be straight. You know?”
 
The German hard man took a beautiful win in Colorado on Thursday, when he ripped free of his breakaway companions and took advantage of a resting peloton, soloing across the day’s two summits and through the Colorado valleys into Beaver Creek. And a win like that, he said, could never be taken from him, not even years down the line.
 
“I know that even if they freeze it for a hundred years and test it with new methods 100 years from now, I know it’s my win,” he said of his sample given to anti-doping. “Because nothing’s going to happen. There’s nothing in my urine sample. So I’m safe.
 
“I can sleep and I can go with my kids — go for a swim, go for a barbecue and that I think is really worth the effort. I’m trying to teach the kids — go straight in life and you will be rewarded for that.”
 
Joe Dombrowski (Bontrager-Livestrong) is one of those kids in the peloton. The 21-year-old, soon to announce a pro contract, said he was looking down the road and not back at Armstrong.
 
“All I’ve really heard is sort of what everyone has heard, from reading VeloNews, Cyclingnews in the morning. I don’t really have anything to say,” said Dombrowski, clad in the best young rider’s jersey. “It’s sort of before my time. For me, it’s sort of about the future at this point.”
 
The peloton soon embarked on stage 5, from Breckenridge to Colorado Springs, and into stormy skies.
 
 

I know why the UCI refused Boardman a medical exemption for testosterone, and they would have saved themselves some trouble by refusing Armstrong medical exemptions. But the Tour was on a downward spiral before Armstrong. Armstrong gave the Tour a shot in the arm, securing contracts for the rest of the peleton.
Hopefully the success of a 'clean' team has created a platform whereby the Armstrong years can be discredited without impacting on the health of pro-cycling. The proof will come in the form of the number of teams, and the money the riders get.
Will reputational damage to Armstrong rub off onto sponsors? The spinning will be an interesting show.

Meanwhile there is still amateur cycling to follow, although the CTT results page is dominated by Funeral Arrangements for Len Grayson.
http://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/
http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/local-west-yorkshire-news/2012/08/20/yorkshire-cyclist-killed-in-road-tragedy-86081-31656443/

Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #12 on: 28 August, 2012, 11:46:17 am »
Velonews did an article on the need for a pro-cyclists union, led by a qualified outsider, as in baseball. There are a lot of implications in that idea. Vaughters is essentially the representative for the teams, who find themselves sandwiched between the ASO and the riders.
F1 experience might also be instructive.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/news/opinion-does-pro-cycling-need-a-marvin-miller_234585

Re: Jonathan Vaughters Talks Doping Reform
« Reply #13 on: 28 August, 2012, 05:03:54 pm »
There would seem to have been an academic conference at the University of Geelong in 2010 that covered a lot of the ground that we constantly recross. Stunningly dull, in the way that these things tend to be, not no less interesting for that.
http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2010/10/new-pathways-to-pro-cycling-conference-recap/